Came here for the autopsy after watching Ben’s video. This was a great teardown and I’m glad you got to find out what happened. Looking forward to more racing!
Even when Toyota engines fail, they are still reliable. Insane. Looking forward to the Gears and Gasoline video with this behind the scenes, hopefully tomorrow. Keep making great content Marc.
I'm fairly certain it will not be tomorrow's video but i do not know their schedule. I can't wait to see it either, there were so many cameras on everything.
You represent everything that's great about racing. Thoroughly enjoyed the teardown and analysis. That money shift wast absolutely driver error, he pulled it straight towards himself. It happens. Keep up the good work!
yeah, driver error for sure but it happens. At the end of the day the drivertrain is a consumable in a race car so you have to expect it to wear out sometimes. At least it made it most of the race and we still had a great weekend.
Coming from Ben's video it makes it so much more impressive how much this thing was able to last, not in regular driving but during an endurance race smashing it hard
You guys still had a great race! The fact that a rod that bent and a piston with a crack THAT big in it lasted *that* long doing race duty is honestly pretty incredible.
I was competing in that race, driving a well sorted E36 coupe. Your MR2 was flyyyyyyyyyyyying! Great video here detailing what happened. As the owner of a 2ZZ MR2, this definitely interests me.
23:30 the only other thing I would recommend, if you are willing to tear down your next engine before racing it and putting it back together, is to gap the rings just a few thou. It's free, but could save the bacon on any time a cylinder sees too much heat. Obviously, keeping oil in the motor would be even better, but just another thought.
Hey Marc, it was nice to finally meet you guys, we’ve seen the car on track for a few years now and it’s always clean and quick! Nice job out there and very nice build! An overall win is in your very near future for sure! Looking forward to our next race together! Although we drive a Ford and parts aren’t quite the same, if there’s anything we can loan you or help you with please drop by anytime.
I'm really glad for Ben and Ben bringing you to my attention! Thank you for this video, I was curious what precisely had gone wrong as you were trying to figure it out at the track with very little obvious smoking gun style clues. You're evidently a very systematic person with how you approach things, and that translates to a very digestible style of video with plenty of detail and context without it being overwhelming. I have to say that while toyotas aren't the mythical unicorns of peerless engineering they're often credited as being, they are damned tough and well machined. This engine teardown goes a long way to prove that. I can't imagine many other manufacturers design their low stress high efficiency engines in a way that lends itself to becoming naturally aspirated monsters as this one has proven itself to be, time and again.
This was a fantastic video!! As a beginner who is trying to learn engine building and diagnostics I LOVED getting to watch you tear it down and give your opinion as to why it failed! Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge!!
Great content, you learn so much more from failures. Thank you for extended video and walking us through your analysis and wealth of information on these drivetrains.
I feel you on the boot situation. I've tried to just get boots for CV axles a couple times but it ended up actually being cheaper to buy entire axle assemblies than buying boots, no joke.
Came here from Bens video also, really love seeing these autopsies as I usually learn stuff, really well explained also, so thanks for that :) I'd honestly happily use this engine at some point in the future when I'm not as broke! Great video :)
Great video and great race, you guys did a fantastic job. Keep racing and building a fun, affordable race car. I know with constant mesh type gears in m/c trannies, you have to replace both mated gears, because they will eat each other up if you don't. I understand this is not a constant mesh, but I do believe the practice still applies. Your work with this engine and car are evident and it shows just how good you are at this. Please keep doing this. We'll keep watching and supporting you. Well done!!!
Two things. In my car (300zx) the only time I have seen stripped gears was due to heat, not power. Also ours require GL4 fluid and we get better results with Redline 75w85 instead of the older 75w90. Im not sure if that oil is better for your transmission but it might be worth a shot.
Great video showing what went wrong, and establishing potensial causes of the issues. You can either reduce body roll, stiffen up the springs and or sway bar or making more clearance. To much grease can cause broken CV boots. A gearbox oil that has a viscosity closer to OEM spec is probably a good choice. You can reinforce the mount for the end link with a bent steel sheet. You are using way to much silicone on gasket surfaces (as 95% of all people do), it is to much if its squeezes to the inside or outside of the gasket surface.
Fantastic video. Very interesting and well put together. This engine and chassis combo looks very entertaining. Maybe it's time to swing back from Honda to Toyota for my next build......
Redline MTLV (75W75) is a highly recommended upgrade from OE oil for 2nd Gen Scion tC's, it will be a solid choice. I'm actually running MTL (75W80) over the summer.
I would highly consider the Ford XT-M5-QS Full Synthetic Fluid. I used this in my spec miata and many others do as well. I also used this in my C56 on track. It almost completely solved my 3rd gear shutter. I will be using this in my EB60 when I finally get my input shaft shim in from Japan.
A quick look at the datasheet ( www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/additionalinfo/Product%20Data%20Sheet%20Full%20Synthetic%20Manual%20Transmission%20Fluid.pdf ) for this and it looks like the viscosity is way up there, much higher than the MTL stuff that was causing synchros to not work hard enough as it is. This stuff may be fantastic but i don't think it's what i will be trying next. I will write it in my notes in case i am still looking for ideas at a later date.
That was an exciting race! You're 2AR MR2 build is innovative and effective. I remember being pleasantly suprised at the unique idea on Ben's build. I would have liked to see the car finish. Impressive though the engine ran so long with catastrophic damage.
That is honestly a testament to Toyota’s reliability that even with **cough** “manufacturing defects” and stretched/overstressed rods and pistons the entire powertrain lasted almost all weekend. On an engine and transmission that already had tons of miles on it.
Sorry to hear about the extra costs for the weekend but at least it made for a good story. I can't say I have dealt with transmissions in racing applications but I do work with class 8 truck transmissions. While getting a root cause on a pile of teeth is pretty tough sometimes you can at least narrow down fatigue vs impact and potentially the origin point if you are right about a manufacturing defect. If you see one tooth with significant signs of fatigue compared to the rest my money would be on defect. If all teeth have similar levels of fatigue marks my first guess would be an inadequate oil film between the gears for some reason causing localized pitting/welding. Can't wait to see everything going back together!
I did not show it on video but i did sort through what was left of the teeth looking for any signs of galling/welding and i could not find anything but many of these teeth have been reduced to dust so it's entirely possible i just missed it. The other thing that makes me think it isn't film strength is that we use 3rd gear about 70-80% of the time with 4th only getting used a bit at the top of the straights. So i would expect oil film breakdown to be a much bigger issue on 3rd than 4th. Hopefully this does not become a pattern, these transmissions have become a lot more expensive, These used to be $200-400 before i made a kit to support these in the MR2 Spyder.
Toyota taking the reliability trophy again, it makes me happy to see how well you build up their motors. And 4th gear looked like Eustace from Courage the cowardly dog
I'm with you on the manufacturing defect theory. I just watched a video not too long ago from a RU-vidr called MetalMax Mopar who has been finding cams and lifters for his Mopar engines that have been having heat treat issues. After just a few minutes run time the lobes are getting hurt and some of the lifters aren't spinning. Man, this reminds me of the stories my economics professors told me about American cars in the late 1970's. There was this one about Ford LTD's with Modified motors in them that would wipe the cam lobes before customers got them home from dealerships. One not-so-proud new owner of one of these cars flat-bedded his car to Dearborn and lit it on fire in front of the Ford executive offices. Ford wasn't the only one with these issues BTW, but that one stuck out to me at the time because my uncle owned one not too long before I took that class in the late '90s. One of those cars was also driven by none other than Uncle Buck in that movie.
Also to your comment about the chip in the tooth. If one gear tooth has a chip and it doesn't have any high spots, and also doesn't fail catastrophically, it won't effect performance at all on the rest of the gears. There's definitely a problem with manufacturing on the replacement gear that you put in.
Also, also, I'm a Ford guy, so I'm familiar with the LV designation. It's super un-viscous stuff. I doubt you'll lose anything in the way of shift feel if you move up to that. I'm kind of surprised that the oil you're using now is less viscous than that. Ford has actually been running a similar weight ATF in their light and medium truck ZF and Mazda manual transmission applications since the early '90s (maybe late '80s?), which every time they do an update to a new fluid the product literature says it's backwards compatible, so I don't think that LV oil is going to fail you. In those ZF transmissions, the 1-2 shift is an insane jump in ratio, and 2nd gear syncros in those 5-speeds always wear out very quickly for that reason, so I don't think your low-horsepower, properly-spaced gear ratio shifts are going to mess with that fluid at all.
Hi found the channel through gears and gasoline, i'm absolutely loving the content so far! Keep up the awesome work, i'm looking forward to seeing more of your MR2!
Is that transmission in the background going to attach to a 2AR or 2GR? 🤩. Also genuinely impressed with the durability of the 2AR if your theories are correct about it running with a bent rod and cracked piston for 14 hours. Can't wait to see what you have coming up with the 2AR/2GR
@@skunclebunny Someone has been listening :) all the parts are here including the mexican pedal assembly and the trans is freshly rebuild. I just need to find time to work on it now.
I don't know if a manufacturing defect is likely on that 4th gear, if the previous one had a ton of wear I'd think there's something causing that wear, maybe there's an existing defect or some wear elsewhere. Additionally I think maybe the thinner oil running possibly ran hotter softening and expanding the metal, and maybe the 4th gear did not fully engage shearing the teeth off from the ends when the clutch grabbed once they put their foot down. I'd definitely experiment with some other fluids and actively monitor the trans temps and see where this takes you, 240 horses shouldn't need any kind of active cooling but it is pushing a lot of low end torque. These are just some guesses, I'm not an engineer. :) One thing's for certain with the 4th gear smoothie in there and the additional laps throw onto it, if you plan to salvage that transmission it's going to require a full disassembly/look over and servicing, that's a nightmare...
Very informative loved it all and might have an idea about the gea servicing maybe worth taking to where the Ben's from g&g get their diff and trans work done to strengthen and learn a bit more about how they beef up all that type of stuff
Marc, I don’t think you shredded that gear from using D4, that looks like shock to me! I use RedlineD6 in my EB60. I live on the northern prairies of Canada and driving in temperatures below -30°C (-22°F) is commonplace. The factory (ToyotaWS) MTL I bought the car new with almost 10 years ago made winter driving miserable, so I sought out something low viscosity straight away, I dump and fill with fresh D6 every two years, and it’s been smooth for me. Also, I ALWAYS double clutch 3rd-4th gear, I believe it’s a mere single synchro there, so you’ll feel a crunch if you throw 3rd to 4th at high rpms without stopping the input shaft.
After the money shift and you mentioned the valvetrain isn't made to run that fast, then you mentioned you were burning oil faster than expected, I suspected there might have been valve contact and your valve guides might be slightly bent, which would vent oil past them into the cylinders. I suspect you might want to check the valves and valve guides for any deformation. The bent rods were surprising to me, but also not extra surprising.
towards the end of the video there is evidence of exhaust valve contact with the piston. the guides may be bent but just before the motor blew up we were burning about 1qt/hr, way more than would sneak by a valve stem. I am pretty sure the issue was a cracked piston. I may be wrong but whatever it is i feel confident it was money shift related.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Ah yeah, a quart an hour is way more than bent guides would get you. And I saw the indication of valve strikes, but forgot it was exhaust side only, which wouldn't soot up the cylinders like was shown.
@Frankenstein Motorworks out here doing gods work. Thanks for pushing the 2AR platform. I appreciate the content. I have learned a lot from your videos. Makes me want to build my TC a bit more. I noticed that you have the 2AR-FE High RPM valve spring, retainer and lash cap combo and the 2AR-FE velocity stack intake manifold available again in your store. I currently have a flash tune in my car with the stock rev limit raised to 7k with the ability to go to 7500 and 8k. Would these products work well with the stock cam? Or would you recommend using the custom cams on your site to go along with it. I live in California where emissions are strict and the car is my daily. So I would like to keep the stock cam if possible. That way when it comes time for emissions I can just flash back to stock tune. Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again for doing what you do and I can't wait to see what else you have in store.
Unfortunately the new intake is a bit too big to add power to the stock cams, i have testing this out on the dyno. The valve springs would work fine with the stock cams but they really don't make enough power up there to justify it.
Its pretty incredible that the motor ran with a bent rod and the car was still dominating against all the others cars out there. Imagine if it had all the power its capable of. Wouldve knocked it out of the park.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Ive seen some cases similar to yours on youtube where the piston splits in half all the way down the middle and the rings hold it together. Pretty crazy stuff. Im a big fan of the K series but what youve got cooking up really impressed me. The platform is really interesting and performed great
@@FrankensteinMotorworks We're on a quasi-parallel track.... Except my 1st love is the Porsche 914 Not with the 6 cyl, but with the VW Type4 engine... to which I've been designing and trying to modernize designs, and test my own parts... age however, is making that more and more difficult... but I salute your youthful resourcefulness, unfettered enthusiasm and, use that as inspiration to keep going. Obviously,, light/mid engine is the way to go. Thanks, again.
Excellent autopsy, I always loved how you articulate things on G&G videos and on MR2 threads, and how you just say "Oh thats racing" and move on to improve things.. such a great attitude! Any OEM boot options? looks like it fits better than most aftermarket axles on stock 1zz/2zz axles though
I know some VW/Audi axles that use similar “930” cvs have plastic boots from factory, not rubber. They are pretty durable, but the sizing has to be exact to work.
Great video :D i would guess that the problem its not a possible defective gear more that the counter gear wasnt replaced because even if it was not that worn it could accelerated the wear on the brand new one just the same as a bad cassete on a bike wears a chain quickly
For the CV boot try and see if the S550 Shelby GT500 work, cause alot of engineering went into those to make them work in high heat and rpm Did u check the gear contact on that 4th gear? Maybe its not full engaging… but thats not normal. Could also be that bearings had ever so little play that allow the shafts move away from each other under heavy torque.
Here from G&G and subscribed. You seem like such a nice chill guy. If you ever need another driver... With the trans, do you think that the old gear caused the new gear to wear-in faster? Kind of like on a bike, a new sprocket will wear VERY quickly with an old chain.
I would like to suggest you use a little (a lot?) less RTV. The bead on the inside of both the transmission and the engine is very thick. With time (and it does take a while) the bead will fall out and the pieces get into and block things like the oil pickup tube. Ask me how I know 😅
This keeps coming up from people that i think have PTSD from failures that have happened to them. My RTV application is not leaving any more squeeze out than the factory beads and i actually generally follow the bead size that Toyota suggests. Using the bright orange RTV i think makes it stand out a lot more so people call it out but i promise this will not be an issue with the motors i work with. The 2AR actually has about 8 square inches of oil pickup area, there's no way to block all of it. When i disassemble my motors there's always one or two small pieces of squeeze out in there, pretty much exactly the same as when i disassemble a Toyota factory assembled motor. As for the trans, the EB60 has no oil pump and therefore no oil pickup that can get clogged.
PTSD indeed! But fair enough. If you don’t have issues, you don’t have issues. I know the transmission doesn’t have a pickup tube, but there are plenty of nooks and crannies for a piece of RTV to get stuck and do… something… IF it were to fall in, which apparently isn’t your issue. Camry on! (Get it? Camry… carry… Ok I stop now.)
Look into "Scottys blend" for the trans...it's a Subaru community thing and I'd assume the Toyota materials and construction are similar I think? Idk just a suggestion to look into
i 100% understand it was a risk. But I was getting tired of servicing the transmission gears because the synchro teeth are damaged and seeing that the synchro brass components were essentially still in 100% new condition. Keep in mind, i knew it would result in accelerated wear but my goal with the test was to extend the interval between servicing the actual gears in the transmissions. If this resulted in the gear faces getting wear but caused the synchro to work harder so that the whole assembly lasted longer this would be a big win. This isn't a street car where parts like that are expected to last the life of the car. Overall i think the test was positive. I don't think this oil is the right answer but it was a very positive test and will inform future tests that hopefully are even better.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks it was very interesting to see the results, i have never tried using any atf in a manual trans. Maybe the additives helped somewhat? Excuse my ignorance on the first comment, i didnt quite understand at first why you used that specific oil in the first place. Love your work, and i woukd hope you would make the same cool stuff with Honda K-series engines as you do with the 2AR ones.
RU-vid has been silent on you for ages, I missed TWO of your new videos. I wish it was as persistent with you as it was with Donut or SavageGeese. Hopefully your work with Gears and Gasoline help in that regard.
Assuming your theory is correct it is impressive the engine lasted as long as it did, all the way through Saturday. As casual observer and complete novice to anything seriously mechanic may i ask, regarding 4th gear being new, isn't there usually some sort of procedure, heat or normal wear before those components should see serious abuse? or is that just more a engine thing? Manufacturing defect seems likely either way.
Im here from the G&G video... Just out of morbid curiosity. Did the big spoiler actually provide any sort of meaningful down force or was it just to look more intimidating on the track? I think you guys did great! Lots of power for a small vehicle but possibly a bit under gunned compared to what you guys encountered on the track that day. Sounds like you guys really beat the hell out of the engine attempting a podium finish. Subbed and looking forward to a rebuild or whatever comes next for the car!
I'll be honest, as much as i like to apply data to everything, the wing was really just slapped on there for looks and i did no math or measurements on it. The car handles really well and will go around a corner like it's on rails so maybe it's doing something, maybe not? but it's a look at this point so i really can't change it. I somewhat disagree with what you're saying about beating the hell out of the engine. We've been racing with the 2AR-FE since 2009 and this motor really puts up with a lot of abuse. But with that said i feel that the statement is correct when in relation to the transmission. We really are struggling to keep the transmission surviving this abuse when attempting a win.
unreal, raced 13.2 hours with bent rods & cracked pistons. I know in the G&G video you said that you weren’t putting any money on the reliability of toyota, but after this, I don’t know what else could convince someone otherwise. I hope that this is just a fluke and a result of overrev. Wish you and the Frankenstein team the best for the next Lemons Race!
I've been racing the 2AR-FE since 2009 and this is the first failure we've had so even if it wasn't due to the moneyshift this was still a fluke and the motor is very reliable.
Venting the outter cv boot will stop them failing. I us a straw from wd40 can between the boot and the shaft bar before putting on the boot clamp. Little to no grease will come out but it’ll stop the boot expanding like a balloon with heat
If you only swapped in one half of the 4th gear combo could it have been an issue with the old counter gear being worn a bit and not meshing well with the new one leading to more wear? That in combination with the ATF?
Did you figure out why the exhaust valves are hitting the pistons? Seems like its a consist issue with all four pistons. Does it have to do with the intake cam lobe dimensions not being compatible on the exhaust side?
it is possible that because the counter gear was not originally paired with the new 4th gear that it may have caused an issue like micro fractures or hot spots on the faces of the teeth?
absolutely but they are not sold in matched sets and I've serviced my race transmissions like this many times. just because it worked in the past does not mean it wasn't the issue but it makes it less likely
How did you make the money shift lockout? We are suffering the same problem currently in our 1MZ AW11. 1 motor has already been sacrificed and we are hoping to save the next one. We have rebuilt the shifter and bushings, but its still not confidence inspiring.
Great racing with the team sir, came from the G&G channel but am also an MR2 owned (albeit an SW20, though looking to perhaps pickup a ZZW11 to do the same eco swap). Question regarding the fuel tank.... do the rules allow the modification of the factory tank or are you limited there? If so perhaps weld on some extra capacity boxes or/and an antisurge tank (on the larger side) to get ya in range of the others (what are they an extra 5-10Lish?) Regardless great watch and tear down.
the rules allow an aftermarket tank as long as it meets certain specs but you are not allowed to modify the stock tank. We actually have a tank that will be getting installed soon with a 21gal capacity.
is this the Getrag 6 speed that comes in the 2zz Celica GT-S? 4th gear in my Celica grinds downshifting from 5tt, but it's fine if I go to 3rd first while the clutch is held the whole time. I never do this at high rpm and generally just skip 4th when downshifting. It has 212,000 ridiculously hard miles on it and the original clutch and transmission still work exactly as they did when I got the car 15 years and 120,000 miles ago. It ground downshifting into 4th when I got it. It still does, but it used to too.
The 2zz celica's 6 speed transmission is an Aisin transmission. Toyota has used Getrag transmissions in the past but i don't believe any of them were ever transverse units. This 6 speed is the EB60 transmission that is also an Aisin unit and it is from the 2011+ scion tC.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense. I remember the Supra 6 speed was a Getrag, and thought I had heard the Celica 6spd was as well, but I am probably very wrong. It does have reverse up and to the left of 1st like a VW though. I keep beating on this car and it just keeps going. The salt is getting to it though, unfortunately.
10:48. If the gear was new, presumably because it had previously failed, and it just failed again, I'm thinking it's more likely a design flaw than manufacturing defect.
It was replaced because it was worn out on the synchronizer teeth. Endurance racing puts a TON of abuse on the synchronizer teeth but the actual gear teeth are always spotless. I've never seen any wear on those surfaces.
boots are indeed the bane of these cars - only ones that seem to last on mine are Toyota OEM - they're different/better compound? "hey - i found 4th gear!" - LMAO too funny
I actually just came up with a solution that uses a durango part to potentially fix the boot issue on the 930 style CV. it's a slightly higher angle high speed CV boot.
Hey Frankenstein, looking to do some tuning on my tC, and I was wondering what software/hardware you use ot do your tuning. I know there is the VFTuner out there, but I figured you would be using something different since you offer ecus for sale.
