As an engineering nerd i really appreciate the information and presentation in these videos. your the kind of car guy that every platform needs love the chapter title "new inspection ports" lmao
The I Do Cars collaboration I didn't know I needed 😂 Would love to see the last Dyno run (and some of the others). Also wear some gloves man, oil doesn't agree with skin. Thanks as always for the great content
I really wish i was recording when it happened. I usually wait until the car is mostly tuned before recording a dyno run so i had not turned on the camera yet. It was sounding amazing making that 330whp. As for gloves, I do try to wear them sometimes but as you notice my hands shake a fair bit and anything that reduces my dexterity further really becomes a problem. I understand it's not ideal though.
@@mcld4214 I suppose it depends on your definition of "medical condition" but this is something that has always happened to me, it's not getting better and it won't be getting worse. It's just something i have to deal with. no reason for any concern.
No worries, you've done more with the hands you were dealt than many! Oddly I've seen some musicians gain dexterity with similar conditions by wearing gloves. Scott's Bass Lessons has a long video on this. Might be worth a look
We live and learn, and catastrophic failures like these are something we learn a lot from. I'd say you are spot on about the reason for failure and once that No6 rod bearing started to wear the rod would have hammered those big end bolts to destruction. It's actually a testament to these engines that it lasted long enough to give you useful data.
Yeah the motor really did me a solid favor by holding together long enough to get all the data i needed. It was only on the last pull where it was down a bit on power and then the next run it went bang.
I've certainly played that game before, here is one i did on track: www.caranddriver.com/news/a18739056/lemons-goodbad-idea-of-the-week-toyota-fun-with-jb-weld-and-shattered-engine-blocks/
Hopefully i don't have too many videos like this to show but i do try to show the failures with the successes to be a bit more realistic with how this stuff happens.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Naturally that's what I wish as well. But pushing them does take something to hold up. I think it must be the clogging of the oil paths thus the destruction. Good luck figuring it out for us. Thanks again.
Thanks for putting together a good video on the diagnostics after the failure. Unfortunately, this can be part of the process and it's understandably frustrating. Keep up the good work!
Thanks for watching it. I needed to take it apart to learn what happened anyways so i may as well shoot a video and show everyone that not everything is perfect all the time.
That motor sounded like a rain stick when you flipped it over 😛 Good stuff, I'll be following your 2GR builds. I don't have an MR2, but I am about to purchase a Sunbeam Alpine; a 2GR that spins to 9,000 RPM sounds like a great swap candidate (I have a RWD IS350 F-sport as a daily).
Thankfully Toyota made plenty of these engines and there's no shortage of them. So we learn, maybe make some entertainment and then move on. Thanks for watching the video.
After sending several 5S and 3S motors to the great beyond I'm glad to hear that's why you went with a V6 swap many moons ago. I was originally going to swap a 1MZ/3MZ into my Celica, but then I heard about a guy across the state line swapping 2GRs into MR2s. The rest is history. I'll at least have the GR and the Solara box mated and in the car this summer. Thank you for all that you do Marc.
Oh, that painful smile.. I once did vibration measurements during trials on a new model water injecton pump. 10 MW, 360 bar, 8000 rpm centrifugal pump. It started sounding strange, so we dropped the speed to 4000 rpm. From there it just stopped in 0.5 seconds. Took the workshop 2 weeks to cut it open with angle grinders to find out what had happened...
It's impressive how these systems can go from perfectly fine to just a giant pile of scrap. I can't even imagine what a 10MW pump looks like, that has to be huge.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks Yeah, in this case it was a mistake in the design, that made the axial bearing clearance increase with temperature and pressure, causing the impellers to rub the housing. It worked until it didn't. Fun times... Actually, it isn't that big, but had around 15 cm thick walls. The high pressure takes a lot of power out of a relatively small pump.
The shower of pieces that fell from the crankcase is an amazing amount of desstruction. Thank you for bringing us along the diagnosis journey. I find these just as informative as the R&D more horsepower ones.
It's funny that I came across your video because I just had a nightmare in which I started my car without oil. I was in the middle of an oil change, became distracted, and then started my car. I remember turning the key and realizing I hadn't put oil back in it and just couldn't stop myself in time. The sound the engine made was excruciating and I was devastated. I was so relieved when I woke up...Sorry this happened but you seem to be taking it in stride.
"Interesting data on the top of that piston", Lots of data, everywhere :). Great video with a good sense of humor about a not so good situation. I hope all goes well on your next build :)
Sad dyno day but a solid number of pulls and mileage out of it considering. That was one for science and it got you going down this path. All is well :)
I run a 3sfe Cummins turbo motor in my mk2 Supra. It’s over heated a few times and rod bearing noise once. I’ve been thru it a few times and it’s amazing I haven’t had this rapid disassembly running 17psi and over 22psi a handful of times. Especially since I made my own intake causing weld beads to run in my cylinder. Cylinder 3 looks like the surface of the moon and it’s been daily driven and drifted for around 7 months now. Just popped a head from 3x reused head bolts. It’s getting arp studs next. I don’t like 3sg engines either but these f heads are stout
Commiserations on the blow up, that really was quite extensive. But... as you've already said, a chance to learn. Loving the open and honest nature of the video too, it must've been a sickening noise when the engine let go! Onwards and upwards! 🙌🤝🤝🤝
I know the pain. Two years ago I had my engine disassemble, probably because we tried 12psi of boost on a stock engine. I noticed "white fluff" in the filter, when I was services it before taking it to the track. Pretty sure that was a spun bearing. Piston in a million pieces, connecting rod in maybe 7 pieces, no inspection holes. Recent one may have been the same thing, but maybe due to aerated oil or slightly low level, going through hard right hander at high revs. Still haven't pulled that one apart yet.
I think there was at least another 5whp left in it the way it was and it's possible there was some internal drag too so who knows. I will be rebuilding it but with higher compression pistons next time so it makes over 350whp but who knows, maybe 360whp?
2 things I love about this video. 1:the sound of gravel in a bucket everytime the engine is turned over. 2:A grown man laughing about the extent of his own self induced catastrophic failure...lol
Yeah there's really no point in getting mad at it. what's done is done and thankfully at the end of the day the cams survived so the only thing lost is an engine that Toyota has made millions of copies of so it won't be hard or particularly expensive to replace.
I shouldn't have, but I laughed then first time you turned the motor upside-down... however, I did wince when you turned it back the right-way-up! I think I recognise the pissed-off-with-self 'shouldawouldacoulda' feeling. Right there with you brother. When die-castings get 'impacted' they really get hammered, don't they? Surprised you didn't have double-glazing salesmen knocking on the garage door to fill up those new inspection ports. Bank 2 reveal was pretty special... Rear main seal removal: *LOL*! Good luck finding a new core and getting Natasha back in the V6 way.
Yeah it was bound to happen eventually with all the experimenting around. I'm just glad it was a stupid mistake from me not a flaw with the motor that i needed to start finding a fix for.
It's like I went to the Frankenstein Motorworks channel and the I Do Cars channel came up. You guys could have done a nice crossover/cross promotion video together disassembling that engine.
Wow! I'm definitely NOT an engine expert, but I would guess this constitutes as: Catastrophic! Dude, when you first flipped the engine over it sounded like a bag of Skittles being tossed about. Ouch, sorry to see this happen, but definitely appreciate you doing a tear down. Very informative and appreciate you giving us your insight and explaining what went wrong and what parts to look at. I guess your loss, is our education... I'm sure that doesn't necessarily console you very much, sorry. 🙁 Hey, I guess if you ain't blow'n something up once and while then you probably ain't having any fun 😅👍🛠 Keep on wrenching!
Ive torn one of these failures before. All you can do is save and label the hardware because everything is trash except the valve and timing covers. Oh yeah i saved the chain, balancer, crank position ring and oil pickup too.
In this case the valve covers are actually quite known for accumulating grit when powdercoated so i'll be tossing those too and the timing cover is the oil pump so that's also getting pitched. But the good news is the cams are still straight so the expensive part is still good.
Yeah the issue is that it got pushed out of the shop to get the race car prepped for a race and then two weeks later i got back to it. a note would have been helpful for sure.
I always like to pull the key and put it on my toolbox whenever i have to leave a car without oil. Means i have to think about getting that key to start it
sorry to hear bout the oil starvation. i did this with my 3sge beams redtop. drained the oil but didnt replace the oil filter. had it idling for 5 min before realizing it had no oil. oil pressure light never came on. hoping not to have shavings in my oil filter and oil pan.
Hopefully you got away with it. For what it's worth i think my situation was much worse because i used brake clean to clean the flywheel flange and that washed the oil out from the #4 main.
I really love all your content! Very informative and detailed oriented videos. I have a question for you would you ever consider looking into the A25A-FKS ? I’m curious because the thing has some pretty high compression for a low hp 4cyl, would be interesting to see one make 300 NA, but thats just me dreaming haha, i would like your input though if it would even be worth to do? I did see your 2GR-FKS teardown and was pleasantly surprised with what you found and was wondering if the engine could be similar to the A25A-FKS in any way like the 2AR-FE to the 2GR-FE.
I actually have an A25A-FKS here because i wanted to explore it and i do think it's a great motor but it just does not have anywhere near the same potential as the 2AR-FE. the valves are tiny, the stroke is enormous, the ports just aren't big enough and the runners in the head on the exhaust side are going to require a lot of work to fix some of the compromises they did in there to fit the EGR system.
Off Topic but I have a 2006 IS350 with the 2GR-FSE and A. Was wondering if you’ve considered using that platform and B. Have you considered cams? ( I just found your channel not sure if you have) I’m chasing 350 haha
Blew up my 2004 camrys 2azfe by letting it burn all the oil up and spin a bearing. Caught it too late, oil wasn't touching the dip stick. Probably roasted a piston ring because it took no time to eat all the oil
I have just honed my block 2GR-FE and the new forged piston from Wiseco now have a wall clearance of 0.0043" instead of from Wiseco recommended 0.003". Should i get oversized pistons and start over? The engine is supercharged and will make around 5-600hp. Right now its at 480hp on stock internals witch is a push for track-use. I also have the Kelford 263 A cams, springs and forged rods. But that doesnt matter.
Are you sure it actually recommended 0.003"? that's a bit tight even without a supercharger. I would expect a 0.004-0.005" clearance requirement but it really comes down to the piston material and how much it expands so you should go with what the piston manufacturer recommends.
the motor let go at 6900rpm while making about 300whp so it had a hell of a lot of energy in the system to really make everything rattle around in there and turn to dust.
Out of curiosity, given how Mike Reed's Apex Mr2 blew up on the road course (and he consequently lowered his 8k redline), could this be related to an oil starvation issue at higher rpm?
I don't think that's the case here given where the damage was matched up exactly with the previous dry start damage. But with that said, above 8000rpm there's certainly a lot of unknowns yet to be discovered.
Yeah i did that on a ford 302 back in the day. That's when i learned that oil filters are directional. I completely destroyed the top end of that motor in about 5 miles
The 2gr v6 is the first platform I’ll be building in my life albeit it’s the 2gr fks. I saw your 404 whp big cam high comp piston 2gr fe on instagram and thought you’d be the right person to ask, but how would you go on about making 310-330 whp and 300 wtq?
The question as stated is completely achievable but i think what you're actually asking is to make a big displacement V8 power curve with a 3.5L engine. You want that torque to happen at low RPM but when you lose displacement you need to make up for it with RPM or boost. I get this kind of question from truck people all the time so i'm going to assume you're in a truck so on top of that you have a much higher drivetrain loss than the application i'm doing here. This means you'd need about 170-180% cylinder fill to hit those numbers, you're talking about essentially building what would be a 500whp+ NA build but then just not letting it rev past about 5500rpm so you still have all the costs associated with a 500whp+ NA build. Hitting your actual goal will be best done with a supercharger or an engine swap with more displacement.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks my bad I should’ve specified I’m in the 8th gen fwd v6 Camry. 500 whp+ na build seems very difficult to pull off on any v6 so mabye a supercharger would be the way for that low end torque. The only thing is tho the only supercharger kit for the 8th gen cams are still under R/D and also I’m not sure if the transmission could handle all that torque even with a full rebuild so I was kinda hoping there were some bolt on mods that increase low end tq
By any chance have you checked the oil pressure data during your pulls? I found that mine had issues under load and shifting. When the pressure place was rengaged the oil pressure would drop off a cliff. I concluded the crank was bending when the pressure plate reengaged increased the shift dwell time to help it out.
Unfortunately I do not have any oil pressure logging on these pulls. but looking back on the logs i can see the power drop a bit on the previous pull at about 7000 when the bearing must have started really getting some damage and then the last pull came apart at 6900rpm.
just all the debris in the crank case catches other things in there. the engine let go at 6900rpm so things were moving in there and it all just quickly became a mess.
I have inspected the 2GR-FKS and while it is a good motor it has a lot less potential than the 2GR-FE. That integrated header situation is a significant impediment to big NA power. Direct injection is also really nice for a street car but just adds a much more expensive ECU to control it all when you push this hard on it.
The lighter intake valves in theory help you rev higher but realistically that isn't needed until you get to much higher RPM builds. I will be using these for my 9000rpm build.
It was a fantastic motor for it's time but this was a motor designed in the late 70's. The head on the 3S-GTE is a slightly newer design but less than a decade newer. Motor technology and material strength has moved so far forward since then and my whole thing has always been to take advantage of modern engine technology. Consider that the 2AR that i play with makes 25% more power to the wheels than the 3S-GTE in the MR2 and that's before you open it up and do anything to it and that's also without any boost. Sure it has 25% more displacement but it also does not have 10psi of boost being shoved into it.
Which "many" 2GR issues are you talking about? The 2GR really does not have any critical issues in it. This motor blew up because i accidentally ran it without oil, no motor would survive that.
Issues like leaking water pumps, leaking timing cover, cam gear death rattle all of which require engine out in camry layout which is 20-24 hours labor Worst engine layout in the world
I will give you that the order that is required for disassembly by the way the timing cover and upper oil pan connect is less than convenient everything else listed here is a 2008 or earlier problem that Toyota fixed way early in the production run and even if you get one of those for your swap it's trivial and cheap to fix. "leaky water pumps" was one batch of water pumps in 2007 that they recalled and fixed. The impelers weren't pushed in far enough on there which caused interference. Leaking timing cover was also an early engine problem, trivial to solve when swapping an engine in with a couple dollars worth of RTV but very few of them actually leaked anyways. The cam phaser rattle issue was a 2008 problem, they did not recall this but they issued a TSB to repair all the ones that were rattling. If you don't count the Lotus application where it's still in production Toyota had the 2GR-FE in production from the 2005 model year to the 2019 model year, 14 years of production and most models did not start until the 2007 model year so you're talking about a very small percentage of these motors, the newest of which is 16 years old, it's just not likely to be one you run into and even if you do it's cheap to address before the swap.
@@kingmarz3635It sounds like your issues may have more to do with the chassis they wrap around these things making working on the engine difficult. This may or may not be valid i don't really have experience with it in the stock chassis. Either way, enjoy the Honda engines that's the beauty of there being multiple manufacturers out there. I'll be here enjoying these Toyota engines.
This is entirely possible but it's generally unlikely for two things to fail at the same time and the #6 not being torqued properly will not cause any damage to the #4 main so the damage on #4 would indicate that it was likely torqued properly. I never did find the 2nd conrod bolt so i could not see the evidence there. Also, i've made the mistake of not torquing the conrod bolts properly before and oh my god that makes a noise you can't miss and there was none of that here. None of this is concrete proof but i really believe that everything was torqued properly.
Is it weird it didn't knock? Seems weird it didn't knock. Anyway, I probably would have cooked up some stupid not a lie but not the truth excuse like "oh, man, there just wasn't enough zinc in the break in oil I went with... "
Yeah it really is odd the only sign it gave was a bit of a loss of power on the previous dyno pull but i was in process of getting the timing dialed in so it just seemed overly sensitive to the 2degrees less timing above 7000rpm or so but then on the next pull it went bang.
Depending on what kind of deal you get on it the motor itself not the parts bolted it on the outside that survive just fine is $250-$1500 or so. installing cams in it like i did for this build is about 2hours, installation is about 4-5 hours. It's not bad at all.
