The Article: www.tierthreetactical.com/ana... Getting Started in USPSA: www.tierthreetactical.com/get... POF Renegade Plus: www.tierthreetactical.com/pof...
Based on my dad's first hand experiences in the Korean War, and the stories he told me, if he were still here, I suspect his vote would be the .30-06 from an M1 Garand.
If he had experiences in the Afghan or Iraq war he would choose a different weapon. He might still choose the .30-06. In WWI Marines used the M1903 Springfield .30-06.
Mine said same , he loved the Garand, fired expert with it and said its just hard to miss with it. From a family member that shot a German during WW2 multiple times with the M1 carbine he just kept coming so he didn't care for the round. The .45 ball was respected for a pistol round. The handgun wasn't always loved though due to loose tolerances and wear on some of them. But if I has a choice between .45 ball and 9mm at close encounters its a no brainer to me.
Interesting video. The old cops I know all swear by the .357 Mag. That said, I tend to be with the “know what you’re carrying and practice until you shoot it well” crowd.
I think that's it. My uncle is former law enforcement (30 years) and we went shooting together, him with his Glock (can't remember which model, but it could switch between .40 and 9mm) and my Beretta 92 clone (Girsan Regard MC). I love love love my Girsan, but he didn't care for it at all. I hated the snappy recoil of his Glock, and he hated the weight of my Girsan. I think he carried that Glock for 20 years, though. Different strokes for different folks, for sure.
Those who choose 9 do so because of the higher round count compared to 40 and 45-understandable. For those who live in states that limit round capacity to 10, stats say that a huge majority choose 40 or 45 over 9.
The Clinton AWB was in effect back when I first started shooting firearms. Magazines over 10 rounds were more difficult to find and absurdly priced if you could get ahold of them. This negated the capacity advantage 9mm has today and heavily influenced me to lean towards more powerful calibers. With the AWB being history, I can understand why young men find 9mm so alluring.
Spoiler alert: The most effective caliber is whatever you happen to have at the time it's needed. The "perfect" gun is of no value when it's locked in a safe at home
There is always that one guy that had to post this beaten to death cliche. Yes, you have to have a gun on you in order to use it for SD. One would think that this is too obvious to have to state, but apparently that isn't the case. So knowing that, choose the gun that has the best chance at being effective. Then practice with that gun until you are proficient. Then carry that gun with you whenever you can.
@@anthonyjohnson100 - there aren't any absolutes in a gunfight. People have succeeded with guns they've bought, loaded, and thrown in a sock drawer without ever firing, and veterans who shoot thousands of rounds a month have failed miserably. It just depends on the situation, and sometimes even random chance. Yes, plenty of practice does help ensure you'll hit what you're aiming at... IF you don't fall apart under pressure. But it doesn't guarantee success. ...especially if you're caught flat-footed before you're even aware of the threat. I just shake my head at all the people I see, walking around with their noses glued to their phones, or who otherwise just aren't paying attention to who or what is going on around them. Those are the kind of people that a submachine gun and a half-million rounds of practice a year won't help... because they'll be knocked in the head before they ever know there's a problem.
One of the things that must be taken into consideration is an aggressor who seems incapable of being incapacitated by the weapon you have on hand. Initially during the gunfight your best option may have been to fight. Though after time has elapsed different options may present themselves. Perhaps at first you experienced tunnel vision and your focus was entirely on this threat. The attacker may have switched from advancing on you to moving away and taking a place of concealment/cover. Look for avenues of escape. If one is available, it may be wise to take it(with haste) rather than continue to engage in the fight. The goal of self-defense is that you come out of the situation alive.
Very very insightful. See the video entitled why One Cop carries 145 rounds; an epic near Point Blank gun fight. I find the physics of this curious but beyond that it's moot to me and my country. Guns are pretty much disallowed. In our case we r much safer this way. Granted this wouldn't work in the US where there is a proliferation of guns. Isaac case in point, it does work in Japan though. A few years ago they registered nine gun deaths that year, with apopulation of near 130 million.
@@jamesharris184 I have seen that actually. That cop's ability with his pistol and the tactics he used got him through that situation. His choice to carry so many rounds afterwards I personally disagree with. In my opinion he should remember to utilize a long gun(shotgun or rifle) whenever possible and continue carrying the .45. The criminal he fought that day was unique.
During my 30 yr career I was forced into three OIS, all w/my issued thirty-eight revolver. In two instances the suspect was stopped right away but in one it took several center mass hits before it was over b/c the suspect was “coked up”. The first two were w/standard pressure 158 grain round nose & the last was w/158 grain +P hollow points (FBI rounds).
During my wife’s time wearing a badge in the 90’s, she permanently retired a child rapist (after he had stabbed her) with a .357 125 JHP. Handguns are not rifles, but the ones that deliver the most energy while still being controllable are our best choices.
@@lanedexter6303 I remember back in the early 90's the .357 Mag was the king of one stop shots. Snowe & Marshell had several books. Then there was the French Goat test.
@@joeltowle2737 THAT takes me back. The 1991 Strassbourg Tests were I think the most scientific yet. And they did seem to correlate with Marshall & Sanow’s work (I have all three of their books). 👍
@@lanedexter6303 I sorry I misspelled Sanow's name. I remember the Federal full power 357 mag 125 gr jhp had like a 95% one stop shot percentage and the federal Hydra shock 45 ACP 230 gr jhp had a 92%. Just awesome power. The 40 S&W was pretty good too and it was brand new.
@@joeltowle2737 yep, I like the .45 I’ve been carrying for 40+ years, but I can’t fault my wife’s revolver preference. She still has her old M66 duty gun. 👍😁
That's very logical but I was in the ER and watched a fully conscious man, who looked like a unicorn, come in. He told the medical staff he was shot in his forehead with a .22 handgun. I know many people have died from those rounds but it wouldn't be my first choice.
My EDC is a Springfield Mod 2 .45. loaded with Hornady polymer tipped hollow points in my 13 round mag. 14 rounds should be enough. I want the round to stop in the target if at all possible. 850 fps and that heavy round is going to smart.
@@antoniotula262 I know better. In my classes everyone using revolvers finish last. Several of the drills required them to fire 25 rounds and even the lady's with only one or two classes uder their belt are faster.
Only if shot are placed accurately, I have never had a hog fail to drop with a single 22 short rimfire between the eyes. This is why 22 lr does so good, people who carry a 22 can afford to practice more, and they are more likely to be concerned with shot placement. Personally I am too old to be lugging around a shotgun, and in the home any larger caliber is going to be devastating to the ears, with magnum calibers the concussion will be disorienting. From my own investigations of two teens using a bow against home invaders the bow was 100% one shot stop, and both cases fatal. There are so many things that trainers with NO experience leave out when discussing self defense. It is amazing that they wear ear protection on the range, in a close room without ear protection multiply that by 10 times. As far as caliber, LG, or handgun, pick what you want it's your choice, remember that most bad guys do not want to get shot. And yes there are statistics to back that up.
@@walkingwolf8072 Shot placement goes without saying. Even a broadhead to the leg much less likely to be fatal than a torso hit. That said, I'd rather take a pistol hit in most body locations, over taking a good broadhead arrow in the same spot. HUNTING quite a bit different than being HUNTED in your own home though. I doubt your assailant will stand still while you decide to take that perfect shot or not, or let you know how many of them broke in your house, or where they all are in your home. If you live in a free state, you'll have more discretion on when to take the shot. Even shots in the back can be defensive, depending on circumstances. You might get multiple shots. You might get one. They might run, thjey might not Something a bit more powerful than a 22lr or 22 short recommended, even if lots of people have died from it over the years. You won't be getting to call a timeout to switch weapons if what you brought isn't enough gun.
There's always 12GA 000 buck, so... or 0 buck if you believe slightly smaller is deadlier. there might even be 0000 buck im not sure but i thing 000 is the largest buckshot.
Yes for sure. But it will over penetrate in a urban area home defense. Number 8 birdshot. I saw on the news. A love triangle something. A guy walked up a dude. And shot hime in the leg but birdshot. Took the leg off at the knee. Another incident. Bird shot to the chest. Peeled everything back to the sternum. Now that will take the fight out of anybody.
As long as you can reasonably place shots, what matters is the bore size and penetration. It all depends your task. YOUR TYPE OF BULLET MATTERS! If you need more penetration, get the bullet for it. If you need less penetration, more expansion to cause maximum tissue damage and avoid over-penetration… get a bullet for that. At the end of the day, of those that will penetrate (as I stated earlier) and you can shoot well (reiterating) , the edge goes to the bigger bullet (reiterating).
Yes, this was the summary of his report: The deviation in pistol caliber performance is too small to be significant. When I was in the Marines, the .45 was the issue sidearm, and for most of my life I had a .45 simply because of familiarity. These days I prefer .38/.375 for home defense and I have never felt that I would have a need for 17 shots. I also like the reliability of a revolver. I have never owned a semi-automatic pistol that didn't have some misfeeds, but I have never ever ever had a revolver not go bang when I pulled the trigger. For home defense, a revolver is very difficult to beat. My best friend was an 0331 when we were in the Marines and the only thing he keeps for home defense are revolvers. If Purple Heart winning Marine machine gunner feels protected by a .38 Special, that should tell you something. His choice was instrumental in my eventual move to the .38/.357. If I have to use my revolver for home defense, I am 100% confident that it will fire when it needs to fire and if I need a second shot, it will be there even if I limp wrist it.
Surprise, surprise , according to this study, the dying 40 S & W is second only to the 44 mag in stopping power. I'm happy to know I'm not carrying a dead round.
The recoil of a 40, is not like a 44, but it is enough to discourage mag dumps. Same principle as using a 22lr is effective but for different reason. People who train, and do mag dumps in real life shootings is what skews these stats so badly. Over a hundred years ago single shot muzzle loading squirrel gun were deadly to the Mexicans, why? When you got one opportunity you make the best of it. The Sharps single shot rifle almost made the buffalo extinct, and in comparison the 45/70 loaded with black powder is anemic compared to modern rifles today.
@@walkingwolf8072 What the hell are you talking about. If a man can't control the recoil of a 40 in a mid to full size handgun, he has not dam business carrying.
@@pkjdm I'm not sure but my memory is telling me the WWB 158 grain loads were measured at around 650 ft./lbs of energy or so by Gun Tests magazine. That's 100 more than what is typically rated these days (535 ft./lbs).
.380 IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN 9MM in ALL but one metric, according to these charts. I find that incredibly amusing, with all the .380 haters out there. According to this information, one would be much more protected with a .380 than a 9mm handgun. I personally own both and view them interchangeably, except for capacity and concealability. With Xtreme Defender ammo in them they BOTH punch above their caliber in the amount of damage they inflict passing through tissue.
You have to consider why, 380 is a up close and personal gun, just like a derringer used to be when Lincoln was assassinated. It's not difficult to have good shot placement when you can actually touch your threat. Also many people who carry a 380, or 22 are less likely to do mag dumps, which is why the 9mm has such poor statistics.
@@walkingwolf8072 I think the reason the 9mm has such poor statistics is that it is used by so many LEOs who can’t shoot worth crap and have hit ratios less than 15% on average.
@@walkingwolf8072 The chart isn't primarily selecting by caliber, it's selecting by scenarios where just one round hit, then sorting out calibers. It doesn't say what % of shootings were multi-shot affairs for each caliber, it just show one-shot shootings without context. Are we not to expect more "double tap" scenarios with a 9mm or .22LR than with a 44 magnum?
The problem with 380s is that very few of them have decent sights. I carried pocket rockets for years. Then I realized the truth was that I couldn't make the 40 yard shot with one if that's what I had to do. So I switched to something a little bigger with good sights and more capacity. I'm not going back to the 380.
Good info and well presented. There are so many variables involved in actual shootings and this video managed to pretty much cover the most prevalent dynamics. Human physiology, drugs / alcohol, training and mindset are all important factors. I was in law enforcement for 22 years and thankfully, was not forced to discharge my firearm. As far as what to carry, LEO's have to consider portability, weight, recoil and capacity. A five pound .50 cal. revolver may be powerful but, not very practical and your back will hate you. It was interesting to note that the .44 magnum, one of my favorite cartridges, lived up to its reputation as the best fight stopper in a reasonably sized revolver.
Great review! I keep a Remington 870 Police Magnum leaned up against my safe right next to my bed at night and a Smith & Wesson 686+ under my pillow. Both of which seemed to do quite well according to this data......
After almost five decades of carrying concealed firearms I’ve learned one thing, the best firearm is the one you’re comfortable carrying everyday. Stopping power is a mute point when your firearm is at home, in the car, or oops I forgot it…. My firearm of choice? LWS Seecamp.
Of the usual defensive handgun calibers, .357Mag (or 10mm Auto) are the best actual one-shot stops AND lowest failures to stop. They're at that sweet spot of maximum penetration that can still be handled safely and accurately. Best at one-shot, and fewest number of required follow-ups.
Hostage situation makes a shotgun a less than desirable choice. Rifles are far more accurate, less recoil for intermediate cartridges, greater round capacity, greater range. Police over the years have moved from the shotgun to a tactical rifle.
@@M60gunner1971 And they can keep drinking hateraide from that sippy cup too. 🤣 Learning how to tactical 12 gauge is a good skill set to have and it's fun to learn too.
Considering this is a science based analysis the word “probably” was used in almost every sentence. Probably this, probably that. I guess that is probably how science works, probably.
A lot of "probably" be ause while the info can present objective results, it doesn't tell you the subjective issues. For example, 38 Special and revolvers in general seem slightly better than a lot of autoloader calibers, especially 9mm. I would speculate that, on average, revolvers are easier to shoot accurately, and people who favor revolvers tend to be better shooters. Am I right? No way to tell, can't be measured by this study. But I think I'm probably right.
Actually the word "probably" is a fine word to use when doing science-based analysis, because science-based analysis is based on probabilities. Statistics (which is based on probability) is the language of science. We have some data that represents a sample set. From this sample set we can see some correlations. We're trying to infer whether these correlations are statistically significant and also what the possible causations are. For example, he's making an inference from the data that one of the reasons revolver rounds have a higher One shot stop is because they're slower to shoot. That may be the case based on the data, but it's not a certainty. In this case the term probably is a good choice. He's making an inference that has some basis in the data.
@@mcjon77 I agree ... I would added that it is used because there are NO absolutes ... you cannot say with 100% that this or that will happen.. thank quantum mechanics and Schrodinger cat and throw in a little Murphy's Law for those without science ... "a miracle"
I remember years ago someone did a study shooting Goats to find the best semi-auto caliber. They shot dozens of goats, the .380 won hands down over 9mm .45 and whatever else they used. They concluded by scratching their heads in disbelief.
@@anton1949 I think you're referring to the Strasbourg Goat Tests. They are widely believed to be a fraud, though I have yet to find any hard evidence either way.
.380s are usually pocket guns, they are generally used at a much closer range. 22lr have good ratings because they are the easiest to shoot well, and are generally more accurate at longer ranges than most pistols.
There's another study based on 1500+ events -- numbers are not identical but relative numbers are quite similar (i.e., .380 vs 9mm, 32 ACP unexpectedly effective, etc).
Nothing beats the ability to out right shock or open up internal cavity. Either with speed or width. No free lunches in physics. Besides the most important one of those fancy grafts was incapacitate. Yes xx.x percent of ppl die by xx round. Sometimes it takes 2 seconds. Sometimes it takes 2 minutes…. A loooooong and now mutually deadly 2 minutes. No replacement for displacement. Literally.
The ultimate Home Defense is not a pistol or rifle. It's a 20 gauge semi-auto shotgun with the rifled/short barrel and pistol grip stock. Deer slayer slugs will drop a moose,blows holes thru armor vest and if not the force is so strong it will push the vest to your backbone destroying internal organs. To take out multiple attackers use double 00 buckshot. If you only want to Hurt then take out the BB'S and replace it with Rock salt.
SUPERB option is the 20 gauge shotgun for home protection I 100% agree with you ... However, if you need to get up at 3 a.m. in the middle of the night to use the bathroom you may also want to buy a handgun to take with you ..Just on the off chance that the home invader decides to attack your home as you are in the bathroom or on the way to the bathroom. A 2-inch barrel snub nose six-shot .38 SPL revolver using a good quality hollow-point round will give you some basic protection while you are vulnerable to attack. It won't have the RAW "Knockdown" power of the shotgun... But it is compact and very portable while you are walking around your home to use the bathroom. Revolvers tend to be very reliable also. A .38 SPL revolver may not be the ultimate home defense firearm... But it can be used as a "Backup" weapon for the reason stated above.
It matters how quickly something takes effect. Not coming to the same result a lot later and calling it the same. Most of the data with .22lr is askew based on how common it is and is said to be so deadly by coroners cause they got a lot with .22lr holes in the freezer. Tons of videos with people running around till they collapse 2 blocks down the road or even returning to a store they tried to rob 15 minutes later with 6 hits of .357 Magnum. 5 seconds are enough if one takes a few steps before the stabbing ensues. The time to incapacitation matters.
You know it, makes me feel good about my old Model 15 combat masterpiece stoked with FBI load and my 870 police magnum loaded with 00 buckshot, couple police trade in guns, I figure if they worked for the KCMO police they should work for me just fine.
I’m guessing the revolver shots were from old salts who knew how to shoot. This kind of data is interesting but lacks context of range, hit locations, skill level of the shooter, etc.
To be honest I carry a 9mm auto on a daily basis, but during winter months I carry a 40 cal. As my edc. But my best handgun is my 357 magnum. It's probably the best defensive combination of preformance and power in any handgun caliber, with a 4inch barrel. It's downside is it's a heavy weapon to carry. And although in a good duty rig it can work really well. The shoulder holster is the most comfortable for me. But unfer most circumstances I'm not a big fan of shoulder rigs. Before I retired from federal lsw enforcement I was interested by the glocks. But I'll admit it took me sometime before I got one. And as the saying goes, I haven't looked back. I also got a glock 23 to add to my glock19, and it's become my cold weather edc weapon of choice. We're I'm from we get all four seasons and in winter it can get downright cold and everyone's layered up in clothing. And I carry the 40 caliber for that ability to punch through heavier clothing in colder weather. And I really appreciate how carrying a glock is easy year round. It's a dependable accurate defensive weapon. But to be realistic any handgun is basically a defensive weapon at best. That's why I also have a ar15 carbine and a ar9 carbine. The ar15 is what I'll have as my main carry weapon for most armed incidents. My ar9 carbine is my main home defensive weapon. I added a streamlight HLX to both as well as freeflote handguards, and dot scopes to both. I did add a magnifier to the ar15 for longer distances and for precise shots. But to be honest a hundred yards will probably the longest distance I'll ever have to engage a hostile target. And as a federal law enforcement officer we very seldom encountered situations passed 50 yards. And from the latest information I've read it's still the same. And although my ar9 is my primary home defensive weapon. It still is more efficient and effective that my handguns in any type of armed situation, due to it's longer site radius and three points of contact. I'm considering a ar9 pistol as well. But I'll admit the mp5 even in simi auto is and will be my all time favorite sub caliber long gun. But my ar9 carbine just might be a hair better.
The two guns I use when I need stopping power are: 6-inch 357 magnum Smith & Wesson model 27-2 revolver 6-inch .45 caliber HK USP Elite pistol I also use .25 acp, 380 acp, 9mm acp, and 38 special.
Besides the magnum rounds, shotgun, and rifle rounds, the smaller calibers will depend on what type of ammo used. I've seen sooo many ballistic gel test of H/P ammo that didn't even open up, and acted much more like a FMJ. Using high quality ammo that has been proven to perform as adverstised makes a huge difference. Shot placement also makes a huge difference as well with the right ammo.
I'd bet some calipers are mainly used by older, more experienced shooters, while others are more popular to new gun owners as well. That's probably half the reason 9mm has worse scores than 32 & revolvers
Another thing that supprised me was how well the 9mm preformed from a handgun. And I relise it's going to be hard for some to accept. 9mm with a 124grain. Hollowpoint bullet especially useing a plus p or plus p plus load is a very effective round. And the 40cal is a effective round also. Basically I carry a 9mm on most occasions. But during the winter I carry 40cal for deeper penetration through heavier winter clothing. And as much as I like my Ruger security six revolver. The Miami shootout was a wake-up call for law enforcement. And gave rise to most departments across the country switching to highcapacity 9mm, and despite what any says the ammo capacity in 40cal is a plus in my opinion. And as a retired federal law enforcement officer and trained firearms instructor I've never heard anyone complain about haveing to much ammo. And as my primary defensive pistol caliber now is my 9mm carbine, useing 124grain grain plus p plus hollowpoints. And my all time favorite pistol caliber weapon will always be a mp5. I've come to really like the 9mm ar9 platform a lot. And my ar9 uses Smith and Wesson md76 magazines, which has last round bolt open. And I really like that feature. And I've got to research if anyone makes a ar9 pistol useing md76 magazines. It's just a feature that gives a ar9 a slight advantage over a mp5, and this from a guy who really likes the mp5. And if any ar9 manufacturers happen to see this think about a ar9 magazine with last round bolt hold open. And by way of a thabk you I would be happy to check how well they work.
Worth noting that Ellifritz explicitly stated that a disproportionately high amount of the data he gathered for 9mm involved ball ammunition as compared to the other service pistol calibers. He expressed a belief that if the data had been purely JHPs, its numbers would have likely been better by at least a few percentage points.
My main carry (unless I’m in the forest) is a Walther PPK/S loaded with a Buffalo Bore +P rounds. Bulky clothes in the Winter makes a 357 snubby concealable
@@lukewarmwater6412 - people would be shocked at how many times just having a gun runs the bad guy/gal off, without the need to fire even one shot. Criminals are cowards, and prefer victims that can't or won't fight back. So showing any "teeth" at all will usually make 'em decide to go somewhere else rather quickly.
10mm seems cool, but it falls into the realm of diminishing returns. It isn't even close to rifle performance, so 'energy deposit', and other high velocity effects arent applicable. Its relying on expansion and penetration, like everything else and a 40 will already expand to the same size as a 10mm and penetrate 100% with the right bullet. So, 10mm doesn't really give you anything but a louder bang and lower probably of a second hit. To do better than a 40, hou have to skip up to 357 and even there, only one or two particular loadings, is going to be significantly better.
@@springbloom5940 @Spring Bloom I get what you're saying, 10mm may have "diminishing returns" as seen from a rifle cartridge perspective, but ALL pistol calibers do in that respect. 10mm is much better than the .40 S&W, just like the .357 Magnum is to the .38spl. As a reloader I have Chronoed the 10mm and have seen the benefits first hand. As a "one shot stop caliber" I have also seen that happen first hand while hog hunting.
@@springbloom5940 A man has to know his limitations..... I'll take that 10mm. the Sirius dog sled Patrol carries 10 mm for polar bears, read some of their stories, the G20 I believe and you will take the 9mm and throw it in the river. Also some great stories in Alaska. The 10mm has proven to be adequate Firepower to take down some of the largest meanest game in Africa, just look up Razor Dobbs hunts, cape buffalo, using double tap ammo, I have the Delta full rail, The Rock Island Armory Commander and also the Glock 29, also Underwood Ammo makes a 1850 ft per second 10mm round
It depends on so many variables that it's hard to analyze. You can increase your odds with a better caliber, but it doesn't mean that your particular rounds will stop the person without good shot placement and depending on the perp's physiological condition (drugs, adrenaline, and psychological condition). A friend working as a Highway Patrolman was shot with a 25 ACP at close range with several shots (he walked away because he was wearing a thick winter jacket). Another friend (off duty) was shot with a 357 Magnum in the chest and killed his assailant after being shot (he survived). Another friend (also a LEO) working undercover used a 25 ACP hideout gun and stopped a drug dealer with one round in the chest. Having trained Military and Law Enforcement Shooters a good part of my life, one of the biggest factors is hitting someone in the right place. Many cops are not very good shooters and only practice when mandated by their departments. We had one shooting between one of our younger LEO's and a perp at 15 feet. Almost 37 rounds were fired with reloads by both shooters. The perp was finally put down by an off-duty Detective coming out of a bar, ending the fight with one shot from a 38 Special snub nose revolver. There is no magic bullet. One of the main reasons for the development of the 10mm (later the 40 S&W) was the infamous FBI Shootout in Miami. One suspect took a 9mm to the chest and it didn't do enough damage to put him down immediately, but he was bleeding to death internally and would have died in a few minutes. He kept shooting anyway, until killed by a badly wounded FBI Agent with a shotgun and handgun. One of the most effective gunfighters of the 20th Century, Delf "Jelly" Bryce, used a 44 Special Revolver (and later a .357 magnum). First as an Oklahoma Lawman and later when he was FBI, he would just show up to deal with a suspect and announce himself. The Perp would usually surrender, it was called the "Bryce Effect". His shots were so precise and so fast that other guys usually never had a chance to get off a shot. Bryce was a one in one million shooter. Many cops are more like our young LEO and hits were luck, more than skill.
The LEO in the Miami shootout was firing 115 grain Winchester Silvertips. IIRC, it stopped penetrating 1" from the heart. If he was using 147 grain Silvertips or WWB 147 grain hollow points, the hear would have been penetrated. 115 grain rounds mushroom out quicker. I don't know if those two 147 grain loads existed back in '86 but they are old loads.
10 mill is awesome. But by design it will shoot through multiple walls in your house and likely into your neighbors house. The penetrating power is crazy.
Wasn't his settled in 1911 when the US went 45 ACP? Or was it 1985 when they went 9mm? Or 1990 when the FBI went 10mm? Or 1997 when they went 40? Or 2015 when they went back to the 9mm? or 2017 when the Army stayed 9mm? Our state police went from 38 to 357 to 45 to 357SIG to 9mm. I stop best with a 38, light 357, or 9mm, and that's all that matters to me.
I agree. Too many "ultimate" studies and no one has produced the final study. I just stick to my "obsolete" 1911 .45 loaed with 185 grain +P or 230 grain +P JHP. When I carry a 9mm, I prefer to load worh 124 grain +P at 1,250 ft/sec as that duplicates the same weight load out of a .357 .annum out of a 2.5 inch barrel.
32acp was used in two world wars, and was the primary police caliber in much of Europe for 70-80 years. I don't think there ever will be a "definitive" answer to this question.
Kudos on really good breakdown analysis of bar graph information. Now, on to my question. When you suggest selecting a rifle caliber carbine, any personal opinion concerning the old .30 Carbine? In my experience it remains one of the finest close quarter combat rifles and cartridges for a number of sound reasons. Your thoughts please.
The .30 Carbine seems to be more than good enough for close quarter combat, but the main concern would be if the particular gun you're using is reliable. There was an interesting series about the 30 carbine by the Lucky Gunner channel that discussed it, and the possible issues those guns can have. Worth watching.
@@onmilo Yeah I hear ya, the old M16 did have some problems. I would still prefer a modern AR15 over the 30 carbine for reliability but the 30 carbine does have some appeal.
@@nitetrekker Yeah, like, say, The M16 platform perhaps. Most of the Carbine "Problems" occurred from trying to make a lightweight semi auto rifle into a submachinegun.
the 30 carbine is good as with any gun if you do not check it out if it needs to be fixed and carry it anyway whose fault is that I never carried a gun new or used with out first checking out
Could the effectiveness of the .44 mag metric be correlated to the skill of a person who is able to effectively wield that weapon? I don't think most people just pick up a .44 mag revolver without knowing what they are doing.
I think there are a few factors behind the statistics. For example, people who carry 44 Magnum and 32 caliber probably tend to be experienced "niche" shooters, and may have better shot placement. There also are many fewer cases with these calibers, so the average and standard deviation is impacted more by a couple of cases. People who carry 45 and 357 tend to be confident shooters, and the extra power versus 9mm gives some margin for error. 22, in my guess, tends to be carried by people who shoot a lot and pretty skilled. Low recoil gives quick follow up. If a defender puts three in the Perp's chest in two seconds, was it the first shot or third shot that stopped him? And close up head shots or chest shots seem common with a 22. 9mm probably has the most incidents, but is that "kind of sort of average shooter" who may not have lots of practice time, unlike a 44 guy, and who is using a 115 grain round nose bullet. Let's be honest, a 115 round nose ain't the same as a 230 grain HP, don't care what the industry tells you. I'm not saying there aren't lots of good 9mm shooters, just a lot of "I got my first gun and practice once every three years" have a 9mm. A 44 Magnum is usually not your first handgun.
44 full magnum rounds are devastatingly destructive but the recoil is too much for most people. 41 magnums are just as deadly but recoils far less. If I had to choose 2 handguns, it’d be Glock 30 chambered for 45 ACP or Smith and Wesson Model 41 Magnum in 4 inch barrel.
@@TierThreeTactical soooo 9mm is no more effective than it was 100 years ago????? Why does everyone say today’s projectiles? Advances in bullet design etc etc?
@@TierThreeTactical tell that to a hunter lol. Or the fbi. You not thinking bullet design is somehow irrelevant throws all this charts and blah blah right out the window. I call bs on your whole video just for that comment.
I wonder how much the size of the gun affects terminal performance. Calibers like .38 and 9mm are very popular in pocket size guns and as stated smaller guns are harder to shoot accurately especially under stress. Peripheral hits are not as effective as center mass.
I was surprised at how the 40calber did as well as the 45acp. And the 40cal has a higher amount of magazine capacity. And can be found in a lighter platform. Between my colt 1911, I almost don't carry it anymore. But my glock23 is my second most carried weapon just behind my glock19. And as a concealed edc weapon for my needs I'm happy with both glocks. I also have a sig 320c and while I haven't had any problems with mind, I'm going to trade it for a glock 45 or a glock 17. And i own other handguns. But with the exception of my Browing highpower, none of them is as comfortable as my glocks. Lightweight and reliable and can be carried for extended amounts of time. And as a retired federal law enforcement officer for most individuals the one big giveaway for a armed individuals is the constant rearranging and adjusting of a heavy bulky handgun on their side. And so far both my glocks have been and still are reliable and accurate, my glovk23 came with Trijicon night sights on it and I added them to my glock19. I also added a streamlight 8a weapons light to both. As well as to my ar15 and ar9 carbines. My first experience useing a weapon mounted ligh war wit a surefire 6p light. It did find for building searches and clearing and worked well enough for certain outdoor use. But after using the streamlight, I'm quite satisfied with it's preformance and I'll stick with them. And as my ar9 carbine is my primary home defensive weapon and it's performed well over the four years I've owned it. And both lights work well at about a hundred yards. I'm satisfied with my setup for both my handguns and both ar carbines. But this is set up for my personal needs. And might not be for others. It depends on your location and needs and experience. As for me I got to thinking about weapons mounted lights for use in Vietnam, and came to the conclusion that they might not have been that great idea. And besides the lights advalible we not that great anyway. And besides they would draw return fire like a magnet.
I have done some talking with brothers that came back from the sand box and that have experience with the 9mm, .40 and .45. Except for special units the .45 is almost gone in the military, surprisingly the .40 is alive and well although the 9mm is the standard issue. Still in all they almost uniformly stated that the .40 (with the heavy 180gr) rounds did as well maybe better that the old .45's and several troops that left the military who have extensive experience with house to house fighting now carry .40's exclusively. Having seen several .40 caliber rounds shooting results on the street, (as well as several DRT .22 short shootings :) 35 yr LE) I concur with the assessments. Bigger is not always better but, in handgun bad breath range gun fights it helps but as always shot placement is king.
I have a friend who is a Range supervisor for a major sheriff's department and he researched all of the "one-shot kills" over 20 years and the 9mm came out on top over the old 38/357 and the 40 S&W. The Department has gone back to the 9mm from the 40 S&W since this study.
Not a fair test when 70% of all handgun shootings involve a 9mm. If they also ran a test of highest survival rate by caliber over the last 20 years, the winner would also be 9mm.
I'm a big fan of 30 rd. rifle caliber AR or AK pistols with a brace for around the house or at least around our place. I can shoot through walls and doors. As we know rifles rule any gun battle as can be seen in his video. Shotguns are fine but I feel you need to also have a handgun with you just in case wile reloading. I have built and rebuild all kinds of battle belts and like having one on hand so I can react quickly if needed with everything needed.
The 40 is consistent. When you look at the average for 40 verse 9. The 40 appears to be the better round. I have 9 and 40 but, lean more towards 40 and 10mm….😁
I've said it before and I'll say it agin. Any handgun will never be as effective as a rifle or shotgun, and even a pistol caliber carbines is a more effective than a handgun. Basically due to sight radius and three points of contact, and useing the right ammo. With my ar9 carbine I use 124grain plus p plus hollowpoints. They are reliable and accurate from that platform. And as far as preformance goes, I don't think anyone can disagree that haveing a more accurate weapon could be a bad thing, not to mention haveing more ammo in the weapon. I set my ar9 as my primary home defensive weapon to get the full benefits from it. A dot scope with a red and green reticle was my first add on. A streamlight HLX protac was my second add on. And I added a freeflote handguard to it. It works so well, that I set-up my ar15 carbine the exact same way. What my setup gives me is the ability to identify and engage hostile armed intruders at a every advantage for me, and puts them at every disadvantage. I've used it at a outdoor range and at 50 yards it will keep a one to one and a half group. And after a lot of practice I got it down to that. Will the ar9 replace my ar15, of course not and was never intended to. But do they compliment each other, yes they do. And under normal circumstances any longgun that is of the right caliber for it's intended use will be acceptable for it's intended use.
I have shot many different caliber hand guns and long guns during my 68 years and I have found that nothing has more stopping/killing power at close range than 12 gauge 00 buckshot other than an explosive devise !!
Always an interesting discussion. I saw another discussion where a guy who worked in a morgue in a large city who said, on average, if the victim was shot two times or less the caliber started with a four. Three or more the caliber started with a three or less. He also stated that calibers starting with a three or less had a bigger chance of being deflected. All his data was only personal observation and most his observations compared 45ACP, 40SW, 9MM and 380. It seems this report validates his claims.
Maybe he hasn't seen very many .22 cal victims, but you can bet the hospitals and police have seen plenty of them. This analysis here was about ending a confrontation, not necessarily ending a life. If you want to end a life, use a 12 gauge shot gun with a slug. If you want the bad guy to no longer be a threat, but you don't want to deal with a murder trial, use a .22 with high velocity hollow point ammo. You can be very deliberate about your shot placement. Most men will quit after one .22 bullet hits them in the balls. One 40 grain .22LR traveling at 1400 fps, has the same energy as a baseball bat, swung by Reggie Jackson. Take that to the balls.
@@timhallas4275 I shoot with a retired cop. He swore he had a suspect survive a 12-gauge slug to the abdomen and went on to sue him although the suit was tossed. It was difficult to believe anyone could survive that but it happened. Moral of the story is that there are no absolutes in these encounters.
a 380 is on a par with 38 special recoil factor allows it to make better shot placement but practice and training make the difference no matter what caliber you use
Excellent presentation. It convinced me that there are way too many factors to model this accurately. It also seems to diminish the .380/.38 special-Versus-9mm-40S&W-Versus-45ACP effectiveness argument to simply a case of the next decimal place in percentages. You pays your nickel and takes your chances.
Shot placement = stopping power. The best caliber is the one that you can manage the recoil and hit the target 99.999% of the time. The definition of best caliber is different for everyone.
It's possible rounds like .32 ACP show results better than expected bc people are much less likely to take a longer range shot with a .32 ACP than with, say, a 9mm. Without seeing all the data, I suspect .32 ACP shots are predominantly at arms length or closer whereas larger caliber rounds likely have some greater percentage of shots taken at 10 feet, 15 feet, ...
Very, very deceiving. Most other studies show far different results. .357 Magnum is 96-98 percent one shot stop, .40 S&W is 94-96 percent one shot stop ability. Most I have seen first hand were no more than 2 rounds fired and that was mainly 45 ACP, .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum. Will say modern 9mm is nothing to sneeze at. Also seen .22 LR but, it took many rounds for it to do it's thing and it is only about 38 percent most of the time. It physics and 22 LR just ain't got it unless its one through the skull/eye socket or straight thru the heart.
I'm wondering how the 45acp crowd is going to react to these findings. But I'm sure that they will have a excuse for why this study is wrong. And basically I base that on the study done by Evan Marshall during the lste70s or early 80s, that did the first verified study of the preformance of handgun calibers. And found the 357 magnum had the best all around preformance of all defensive handgun calibers. It caused a lot of feedback from the 45acp fans. And Marshall was a follower and disciple of Jeff Cooper, Mr 45acp himself. And of course it started a fair amount of controversy. And another student of Cooper did a indipendent study and low and behold came to the same conclusion. Now we have the controversy over the effectiveness of the 40 caliber rounds. And low and behold it's just as effective as the 45acp. And I'm wondering if this study will end the 40 caliber controversy. As they both preform so close as to statistically equal. And put to rest that the 40cal will be obsolete soon. I myself use a 125 grain bullet in my glock23 and I'm happy with. And recoil is controllable and not really a factor. But I also carry a glock19 useing 124grain bullet and I'm happy with it also. And from a 4 inch barrel weapon both preform well in testing I'm aware of. And both are light enough to be carried for extended periods of time. And as a retired federal law enforcement officer. I was part of the changeover from revolvers to simi autos. And I'll be honest a fully loaded 9mm can get a little heavy after a while. And the one thing that impressed about the glocks was the weight. And it took a while before I retired my smith and wesson 5906 to the gun vault for a glock19. And later I tried a glock23. And I haven't regretted my choices. And between the reliability and accuracy from both I haven't been disappointed. And can carry them for extended periods of time comfortably. And as far as the caliber controversy as long as you're useing a good reliable 124 grain hollowpoint, it should be sufficient for most defensive armed incidents. In a light weight reliable and accurate platform.
@@mghegotagun I would not know I haven't shot a ten millimeter and for my needs I just don't see a need for it. And I remember when the 44magums became popular all because of the dirty Harry movies. And the gun store I frequent had a case full of returned one's. And joking with the owner we both had a good laugh about people buying a weapon based on a movie. And he was don't you want to buy one and I answered right back. Why I'm not getting molested by grizzly bears, and a couple of guys listening to the conversation cracked up including the owner. And a couple of guys I worked with hsd bought them and in a month were trying to sell them. And I'm not saying they ste useless. But if I have to face off with a ticed off grizzly bear or black bear them I prefer my Remington 870 slug 12 gauge to save myself. And it's what wildlife officers in Alaska use on polsr bears that become down right annoyed by the officers and intend to use them for a quick snack. And a 12guage slug gun is their preferred weapon of choice. And as a retired federal officer and firearms intructor a slug gun fireing a 1 ounce Foster slug puts bad guys down and keeps them down. And annoyed bears to.
Most important thing about shooting is hitting the target, if you miss the target then caliber don't matter. The reason the 5.56 is such an effective round is it's easy to shoot, same goes for the 9mm, if it's easier to hit a target, then that is a very big deal.
My warm weather EDC is 9mm, but I have noted a large number of OIS in which it took more 9mm rounds to effect a stop than expected, and the suspect did not expire as would be expected. In the past, Departments using larger calibers, 357 Magnum, 357 Sig, 40 Smith, and 45 ACP, would not have to make as many hits to incapacitate the thug, and he usually died. The 357 calibers, I recall, only needed less than two torso hits to effect a stop. 40 Smith wasn't far off either. My jacket weather EDC is the 40 Smith.
Check out Officer Gramins' interview about his shootout with a suspect. He told Mass Ayoob the suspect was shot 14 times before being stopped by three concecutive headshots with a 45acp. He has now switched to 9mm for faster follow up shots and he is training on taking head shots to stop threats. BTW, the perps autopsy showed he was clean of drugs and alcohol.
@@highonimmi There is a famous incident where a police chase ended in a shootout and they shot the guy 45 times before he stopped being a threat. He was on pcp.
I conceal carry 357sig, I have some 50gr Liberty Defense rated at 2300fps from a 4 inch barrel, I keep a Ruger57 with fragmentation ammo in the glove compartment and a Ruger LC Carbine in the trunk, velocity is more deadly than caliber size, a 5.56 is a .22 caliber, but 22LR is nothing compared to 5.56, I'd like to convert my AR9 into 357sig, it just makes sense to me to have a rifle and pistol with the same caliber and magazines, you can literally hear the higher velocity produced by the carbine compared to the pistol
