My husband and I unknowingly went to a Mass at one of these parishes since we weren’t able to make it to ours. I thought it was beautiful! Went there for Confession Saturday :)
In the beginning of pandemy in 2020 i started to attend several sunday online ordinariate mass from Britain. Unfortunately the language barrier (my primary language is indonesian) combined with unfamiliar liturgy prevented me from continuing.
I'm someone who was sort of torn between joining the ACNA and the Catholic Church, before settling on Catholicism, I have quite a fondness for the ordinariate
Under Pope John Paul II, there was a pathway opened for Anglican priests who wanted to convert to Roman Catholicism. I was extremely blessed to have one of those priests in my life, Fr. Doug Lorig, who converted along with his wife Nancy and their five children. He was the sweetest soul I’ve ever known.
Fr. Doug Lorig, may he Rest In Peace, used to be the pastor of the church I go to. I was young when he became the pastor, so I don’t remember much, but he was a very holy priest. He’s the one who really put our parish together.
@@felicityscroggins3540 What a very small world! St. Anne’s or St. Stephen’s? He was my religion teacher at Seton, and we would attend the Byzantine mass when it was first being held in a converted house out in rural Gilbert. I was 12 and 13 and he had just had his orders validated. My senior year he was telling us a story about a supernatural experience he had had as an episcopal priest at his church in New Mexico when all of a sudden it hit me line a ton of bricks that there was a reason why he’d always seemed so familiar to me. I raised my hand and asked him if he’d ever been filmed for Ripley’s Believe it or Not, and he had. I’d seen him when he was still an episcopal priest on that show telling the same story. Small world indeed!!
@@ohmightywez Oh my goodness! This is a small world! He was the pastor at Saint Anne's, which is the Church I go to. How did you know? I don't remember him much because I was really young but I've been told he was a very holy priest. Is that converted house where you heard the Byzantine mass the one that's close to Saint Anne's? Saint Thomas? I don't know if Saint Thomas is a converted house or not but it's the only one I can think of that Fr. Doug might be connected to. What did he say about his religious experience? I've never heard of Ripley's Believe it or Not. I'll have to search it up!
I'm always skeptical of non-Catholics speaking authoritatively about the Catholic Chuch, but I must give you kudos on a well researched, well presented, and overall informative toned (as opposed to negative tone) video. Good job.
@@Liphted worship means greatest worth. I would tear down every single catholic statue if God commanded us too. I doubt any of my Catholic brothers would disagree here. We do not worship statues. We don't pray to the statue or think it gives us powers.
I saw an Episcopal minister on RU-vid claiming that the Catholic Church instituted the Ordinariate to "poach" Anglicans/Episcopalians. The fact is that the idea came from Anglican priests and bishops in England who had decided to leave their Church and convert to Catholicism. In requesting admission, they asked whether it would be possible to retain some of the Anglican patrimony--prayers and liturgy--to which they had become very attached, and which would not conflict with Catholic doctrine and practice. After some years of consideration, the green light was lit, and the "Anglican Use" was born. That title was changed to omit the word "Anglican", fearing that it might give people the idea that this was some renegade branch of the Protestant English Church.
@@Zuperlion74 I wish I could provide the minister's information for you, but it was seven or eight years ago, and I wrote nothing down. I remember that he was American and young-looking. He did use the word "poaching" or "poach," if that information would help a search. I have noticed that recently there have been several groups of Anglicans who are separating from their Mother Church, but most of them seem to be founding sects of their own--the most common reason I have heard is that the Anglican Church has decided to recognize or "bless" same-sex marriages.
How it went down was more like, the Pope wasn't powerful enough to stop Italy from supporting the freaking nazis. So after WW2 they let mass be said in English, cuz they realized it was important to be able to be writing in that language, and their primary English speakers were Irish and Irish American priests who they did not ever hold in high esteem. So they got together with the Anglican church, copied their homework to come up with some official words in English to call things and as payment the church did its part to quell the troubles in Ireland. Its lead to a boom in catholicism in America and I'd say the church is in much better shape than it was during the world wars
@@voiceofreason2674 The Church has been in a state of crisis since the Second Vatican Council decided to change just about everything. The changes started to appear as a result of the Council, twenty years after the Second World War. I have no idea where you get your "history," but the Church is certainly not in "much better shape than it was during the world wars."
Fantastic video. I’m Catholic in the Diocese of Orlando, and have visited a local Ordinariate Church, the married Priest celebrated Mass and his kids were altar servers…
@@mts0628 You can't have mass without a priest and the celebration of the Holy Eucharist are commonplace in the Catholic church seeing how people can go twice a day if they so decide to. The manner of how the mass is celebrated as well as the priest being married is a rarity for Mr. Bill Martin so it makes sense why he would say what he said.
@@mts0628 What is your solution for the married converts who were protestant priests that wants to become Catholic? Most of our priests in the Ordinariate is married and we wouldn't have enough priests for all of our parishes if we didn't have the married priests. Furthermore, Pope John Paul II said that the Eastern Catholic Church's Traditions is a treasure to the Catholic Church and that includes priests being married. I do have a deep respect for the Tridentine Mass and I much prefer it to the Novus Ordo Mass. Trying to decide if I like the Anglican Use Mass less or more than the Tridentine Mass. God Bless!
Excellent introduction! Thank you for posting! It must be stressed that the creation of the personal Ordinariates by Benedict XVI in 2011-12, was the culmination of a series of pastoral responses by the Catholic Church to an escalating number of petitions by Anglican leaders from within the Anglican Communion and from the Continuing Anglican community who, along with their flocks were seeking corporate reunion with Rome.
I appreciate your delivery in your videos, because you're not irritable or impatient with the different beliefs that people hold sacred. It's respectful, showing love of God above all and love of neighbor as yourself. I can't read your heart, but I can learn from those who are honest, forthright, and respectful.
I'm a member of the Ordinariate. Pope Francis completely opened the pathway to become a member of the Ordinariate saying essentially you may join if this liturgy or their ministry has blessed you in some way. I'm a baptized Roman Catholic and a former full-time parish employee in the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston for most of my adult life. I joined the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter about six months ago.
Thank you, basically very correct. In the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter in the U.S. our Ordinary is in fact a bishop, since he was originally a priest of a regular Catholic diocese. He was appointed in 2016 by Pope Francis and then ordained a Bishop. He is celibate and does ordain Priests and Deacons. Bishop Steven Lopes was appointed to be Bishop, because he was involved in creating the Ordinariates and their liturgy while he worked at the Vatican. Our Ordinariate Mass is a fully recognized, valid Catholic Mass. Any Catholic in a state of Grace may fulfill his Sunday or Holy Day Obligation at our Mass. Members of the Ordinariate may also receive Communion at any Catholic Church in the world.
I enjoy your videos but as a Catholic I notice that there are very few if any videos on Catholicism. An interesting series would be of videos of what the catechism actually teaches and possible commentaries from the likes of Lay Catholic heavy weights like Trent Horn, Scott Hahn or Tim Staples. It would be beneficial for the Christian church for protestants to learn what the Catholic Church actually believes rather than the false paradigm sadly many protestants have. I admire your objective style, Keep up the good work. Thanks from Nova Scotia
Kinda interesting to see a whole chunk of a church join back in communion with Rome (albeit mostly as a response to the leftward shift of the rest of the Anglican Church such as allowing female bishops.)
If I remember correctly, the exodus became in earnest after it was approved by the Church of England to accept same-sex marriages, except it was vetoed by Queen Elizabeth so it was never implemented.
@@jeffkardosjr.3825 I don’t think the Orthodox churches can remotely claim this, given the high degree of internal schism that happens. Without Rome, or at least a central authority, all churches dissolve.
My own Anglican church in London is weird. Its historically Anglo-Catholic but over the last few years, a more evangelical Calvinistic church plant happened in a pub nearby. They grew a lot and needed more space while the Anglo-Catholic was struggling. So they decided to share a building but have separate services. Recently, the Anglo-Catholic pastor retired so the Evangelical pastor took over the service for both churches. He does the higher service first thing with Lords supper every time, and then an hour and a half later changes clothes and does a more informal service.
@preyr631”James White seems to really dislike other Christians who aren’t calvinists”. NO,he tries to explain the truth about Biblical revelation and point the non-calvinists in the right direction . Charles Spurgeon and many many more throughout history have tried to explain the truth of Scripture.
Why do you go by "conservative?". If you're Roman Catholic, that's what you are. There isn't a conservative and liberal political wing within the Church.
The closest one to me is in Louisville Kentucky (and I live near Cincinnati but on the Kentucky side of the river). However, although I’m a member of the Diocese of Covington through St. Therese Parish in Southgate Kentucky, I have been greatly benefited by this group of Catholics.
I should also point out something else that I've noticed by observation. Although the Anglican ordinariate in the United States is growing, they still have so few parishes that are so spread out that many people who would otherwise be inclined to join them are simply going to their local Catholic parishes and becoming a part of their local diocese. The ordinariate seems to be becoming increasingly picky about which former Episcopal priests it ordains as well. I don't think that's a bad thing, but the current canonical strictures under which the ordinariates operate can very easily impede their growth.
I think also that there are many Anglican clergy joining the Catholic Church and relatively few lay people. If they don’t have a community with them, they don’t get ordained. But these married Anglican priests can apply for an exception to the canon of celibacy to be applied the old fashioned way with a regular Latin diocese
@@albertito77 if an Anglican priest joins via the ordinarate, the exemption is automatic. Exemptions via the pastoral provision since the founding of the ordinariate are virtually unheard of, because convert priests are coming in via the ordinariate, and they can come alone now.
Well I think the Anglican ordinates is more made for the UK then the US anyway, their are only 2 million Episcopalians here in America and traditional Catholicism is more culturally accepted (the US has the 3rd largest Catholic population in the world), in the UK there are just way more Anglicans, Catholicism is still stigmatized to an extent, and Anglicanism is very much culturally engraved, there are more people dismayed about Anglicanism going off a cliff to the Left (anyone concerned about Episcopalianism jumped ship in the 70's), and Anglican ordinates Catholicism is trying to fill that void, well keeping in Anglican culture
@@alcarbo8613 except that you don't have to just have come from an Anglican background strictly to be a member. Every denomination that is seen to have spun off from Anglicanism can also have former members join the Ordinariate... That includes Methodists (and all of the associated Holiness spinoffs), Baptists, and potentially even Quakers. But the ordinariate doesn't have the reach to capitalize on that.
Just out of curiousity - I would assume a woman ordained as a priest(?) in the Episcopal/Anglican tradition would be excluded from taking any form of 'offical' pastoral role within in the ordinariate?
Correct. It is impossible for a woman to be a priest so no woman could be ordained in the Catholic Church. Additionally, the Church holds that Anglican ordinations are not actually ordinations, so when Anglican clergy convert to Catholicism they must be actually ordained in order to be a priest
@@awm9290 It's dogmatical (more like doctrinal in my eyes but whatever) because of the Catholic (and Orthodox) understanding of the priesthood as being not an office that the priest personally holds, but of Christ's High Priesthood and the role of the priest as a minister of Christ, rather than a priest à la Levitical way, that's where the term IN PERSONA CHRISTI comes from. Therefore, the minister has to be male as Christ, to be able to act as the Christ.
@@jmjaquinas7298 Taylor Marshall immediately comes to mind. He was an Episcopal Priest who became Catholic. He decided not pursue Holy Orders and is currently annoying the very liberal US episcopacy via his RU-vid channel. So it goes. 🤷♂️
Well stated! Another way to put it is this: The Anglican Ordinariate parishes represent, from a Catholic perspective, what the Christian worship of the Anglosphere _would_ have naturally looked like by now, were it not for Henry VIII's marital difficulties and the second- and third-order consequences thereof. This description isn't perfect (it fails to account for the strong Anabaptist/Congregationalist impact in the Anglosphere) but it gives the gist: Had the Sarum Rite ecclesial traditions remained in the Catholic communion, one expects they would look today rather like the Anglican Ordinariate. It's a bit of a time capsule from the late 15th century of Catholic England, melded with a small amount of development of liturgical language since that time. And this is truly a lovely thing, for the Anglosphere _really is_ culturally distinct from the more strongly-Latinate cultures of France and Italy. The Church should everywhere be the same, yet _enculturated,_ expressing the same worship and doctrine in the differing voices of differing peoples. Just as the liturgies of Italy ought not be compelled to replicate the liturgies of Africa, so too, the liturgies of the Anglosphere ought not be compelled to replicate the liturgies of Italy! Yet too often the Catholic liturgies of the Anglosphere _after_ Henry VIII were deprived of their natural English-language heritage, and (for lack of anything else, and wanting to indicate orthodoxy and faithful communion in the strongest way) _stylistically_ duplicated the equivalent traditions of Rome. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that _except_ that English-speakers observing Italian style-patterns and aesthetics isn't _entirely_ as "enculturated" as the Church would normally be, had all gone well. To my mind, the revival within the Anglican Ordinariate of the Sarum ritual tradition restores some of that missing British-English character which had been missing in the experience of English-language Catholic liturgy since the days of Henry VII and Cranmer and the Edwardine ordinals. In another two or three hundred years, perhaps some compromise between the Anglican Use, the Novus Ordo, and the Extraordinary Form might evolve into the English Rite, parallel to the Ambrosian or the Mozarabic? Time will tell.
Thanks Bobby! One of my tenets is "High information density" so I try to always have 5 minutes of video have 5 minutes of content. It's kind of the anti-podcast, since most podcasts seem to spread 15 minutes of information over an hour and a half.
It would be great to see an episode devoted to other parts of the Episcopal Church, the Anglo-Catholics who remain a part of the Episcopal Church. One example is Church of the Advent of Christ the King in San Francisco. The difference between Episcopal High Church v. Low Church could be part of this as well.
The Anglo-Catholic and Low Church division existing together, neither excluding the other, I think is found throughout the Anglican Communion. There are 42 Provinces, including the Anglican Communion in Japan, the Nippon Sei Ko Kai. Given that we don't have a "command structure", I think the unity and diversity side by side is awesome. Probably the key is the simple but awesome contribution of the American Episcopal church: "Respect the dignity of every human being."
I do not think the Catholic Church actively goes out of its way to get communities to separate from the Anglican communion; the ordinariate was set up for Anglican communities that have requested to be incorporated into the Catholic Church. This springs from divisions within the Anglican communion churches themselves (the Church of England, of Wales, of Ireland, of Scotland, the ECUSA, etc., sometimes styled as "national churches").
Thank you for featuring this episode. However, it would have been more charitable to explore the historical High Anglican liturgical tradition, and how in the past ten years, several Anglicans sought out communion with the bishop of Rome, with the knowledge of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Benedict XVI's generosity to these bishops was to urge them to preserve their Anglican heritage, and this was very well received. The Opus Dei within the Catholic Church is also a personal ordinariate. No, this is not an outreach to convert more 'across the Tiber' as that misrepresents the intention and benefits of such, which is not a 'church within a church'. I'll leave it at that. You have been doing a wonderful job in putting all these out, and I'm not being condescending! 😆 Why I love your work. But it's important to note that the Catholic Church has been always generous towards all Protestant Churches; you'll rarely hear a Catholic disparage any. So the creation of the Ordinariate is not for ecumenical outreach as it is for a specific bishop to oversee a particular flock holding to a particular Christian tradition or way of life.
Well reason Ordinariate is a breathe of fresh air, is partly is the Ordinariate is based off traditions that was lost due to the reformation, it is a foundation to reviving the English Use
Actually, Opus Dei is a personal prelature, and it’s members and clergy are subject directly to the Pope. The dioceses have nothing to do with them, period. The Anglican Ordinariates mentioned in this video are only structured like a religious order. They’re semi-autonomous, but are still subject to the Western Canon Law and like religious orders, cannot setup their own ecclesiastical courts. The 23 Eastern Rite Catholic churches juris sui are under their own Canon Law and headed by a Cardinal-Patriarch; like Opus Dei, they’re fully autonomous.
As what was done for Anglicans, explorations have been under way to do the same for Lutherans, who are much closer to the Catholic Church than are, for example, the Methodists. It will be interesting to see is this leads anywhere.
What I hope happens is within the Western Patriarchate the Anglican Sui Iuris Church would be established; the Mozarabic Sui Iuris Church would be established for Spanish speakers; the Bragan Sui Iuris Church would be established in Brazil and Portugal (this Liturgical Tradition is a subset of the Mozarabic Rite); further, I would love to see a Gallican Sui Iuris Church established for French speakers and the Ambrosial Sui Iuris Church established in Northern Italy and other areas where Northern Italians settled. Each of these rites are still in use and it is well established that multiple Sui Iuris Churches can exist within a single Patriarchate.
As a former NO parishioner, I'm so happy that I've moved to the Anglican Ordinariate parish in our area. It's as beautiful as the TLM, but mostly in English, so I can understand a lot more of it.
Excellent video!!! Very well done! Just a small mistake: you say Latin rite but you mean Roman rite. There are some Roman Catholic who are Latin rite but not Roman rite such as Ambrosian rite ( like me), Mozarabic and lyonnaise. Ambrosian rite Catholic are about 11 millions and live in Lombardy, Piedmont and Switzerland
Thank for an excellent explanation. It also never occurred to me that there may be an outreach to other Protestant groups. I am thinking Lutherans and Methodists. I wonder if there are any other possible candidates. As a Catholic, I am proud that since the Second Vatican Council, the Church has taken it "Catholicity" very seriously and has tried to De-Latinize the requirements made on other ancient rites of the Church.
I doubt there will be much of a direct outreach to Methodists since the ordinariate functions in that capacity. I know that methodists are actively being encouraged to join the Anglican ordinariates.
As a African American Catholic I am thoroughly confused as to why we are bringing Anglicans in with such ease when other protestants-esp those from Black churches and denominations some of whom have come as whole congregations into Catholicism. Anglicans broke the succession, they sometimes believe in true presence, sometimes not. I know that some protestants believe in th true presence even when their denominations don't. I am so glad for anyone to come into the church but lets not confuse things; the church of England is not an ancient rite. The Eastern churches and African apostolic churches are-Ethiopian, Coptic, Church of the East, Eastern Orthodox. All protestants who want to coe in with modifications of their rites should be allowed.
@@RedRiverMan actually, for a church to come into the ordinariate, for an entire Parish to enter the ordinariate it has to do so as a parish. I'm aware of several parishes that have done this, it's not easy to join the ordinariate at all, it cannot be done with ease unless you simply walk in and say you want to join, just as you would with any other Catholic Church. The parishes that have joined the ordinariate have joined as entire parishes. It was not something that was easily done, it was a lengthy process.
@@RedRiverMan Yes Chris, you are absolutely right that Anglicanism is not an ancient rite. When I wrote my comment, I was aware that I was conflating two different groups (the Anglican church and eastern rites) but did so for brevity's sake. My apologies. Thank you for clarifying things better. As far as outreach to African Americans, I agree with you. I grew up in a Catholic parish that was half Slovak ethnicity and half African American. As aside it was a beautiful thing. Both groups worked together and worshiped together in a loving manner. The key was that we had a series of great pastors who encouraged everyone to maintain their own culture and customs and yet to share those customs in a respectful manner with each other. It actually worked well - not perfect - but well enough to be something special. My sense is that this "Catholicity" and a true and equal diversity was very attractive to my fellow African American parishioners. They were very committed Catholic Christians and spread their love to everyone. Bringing African American congregations into the Church should be much more of a priority for the Church. You mentioned the Ethiopian Rite of the Church which is as ancient as any of the original rites of the Church . Since it is an indigenous to Africa, I have always felt that many African American potential converts might relate well to this rite if it was made more available here in America. What is your opinion? Thanks.
@@RedRiverMan Two points: Firstly, African Americans from traditionally Black Methodist denominations are part of the invitation to join the Ordinariate, so think AME Methodists. Secondly, the Ordinariate was established in large part as a response to the request of Anglicans marginalized and disaffected by the prevailing leadership of the Church of England and the American Episcopal Church. To my knowledge there hasn't been a comparable mass disaffection of African Americans from the traditionally African American Churches Methodist or otherwise.
Interesting point, when the first parish here in Canada to come into the church (which is in the town I’ve lived in my entire life), it was the Bishop who confirmed me (Bishop Fred Henry) who ordained Frs. Lee Kenyon and John Wright, as well as Fr. Jonathan Gibson as Msgr. Jeffrey Stevenson was the Ordinary at the time (he and his wife were in attendance at the ordinations). Fr. Jonathan was the founding pastor of Grace Anglican Church of the diocese of the Anglican Network in Canada which is a diocese of the Anglican Church in North America, a church affiliated with the conservative and evangelical leaning Global Anglican Future Conference. Fr. Jonathan is now the pastor of St. Peter’s which has always been apart of the Roman Catholic diocese of Calgary.
As a confessional Lutheran, I’m curious if we’d be “eligible” 🤔. My Baptist father-in-law already thinks I’m “pretty much Catholic”, so might as well, lol.
Since there is a church in Savannah that is part of the Ordinariate, ads for it appear often in the diocesan newspaper. In addition, my old religion teacher talked about babysitting the children of a priest who was an Anglican convert when she was younger. The story was rather interesting to those of us who had grown up with the idea that all Catholic priests were unmarried and celibate, and a clergyman with a wife and children would always be in the diaconate (though I'm sure this is rare).
More proof that celibacy is a discipline, not dogma. Historically, the subdiaconate required a vow of celibacy. Since the 1970’s, many married grandfathers have been ordained permanent deacons.
Thank you for this video. You might also want to make an explainer video about a personal prelature in the Catholic Church, as my suggestion. Thanks once again.
4:45 Ordinariates are also looser than dioceses in relation to geography. Those erected for armed forces provide ready examples, each pertaining to its own country, but all as capable of international ministry as the position of their forces allow. But the ordinariates for Anglican patrimony may have already exceeded their own countries' borders. I believe at least the US-based "Chair of St Peter" also includes communities from Canada. As for the video, overall, well done & thanks.
Curiously, Irish Catholics were persecuted viciously by the English and forced to pay dues to the Anglican Church. Obviously, anyone who enters the Catholic Church is more than welcome.
The Ordinariate here in Australia does provide a means and place of worship for some in the Anglican Church. The number of those people is very low, probably much lower than the Catholic Church was expecting.
Eastern Catholic Churches have doctrinal differences with Western Catholicism and in the case of the Trinity most other western churches. The Eastern Doctrine of the Trinity holds that the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father only, while the Eastern Doctrine of The Real Presence does not consider how this occurs, holding it to be a sacred mystery beyond human understanding. Most Orthodox Churches hold similar doctrines.
I am Byzantine Catholic and minor differences on expressions of the faith don't matter.We are in full-union with Rome and maintain our own rich liturgies and Traditions
The western Catholic Church does not attempt to explain the real presence or how it happens. Transubstantion only states that it does happen. The bread and wine becomes the Body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ yet under the appearance of bread and wine. How exactly this happens is a mystery.
The Greek-catholics hold to the same view of the Trinity as the Latin-catholics (the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son), but there can be different formulations and subtle differences behind those formulations
I was a Catholic who moved to Anglicanism, when I looked at going back I was told that I was sinful and had to confess the sin of being Anglican, and couldn't be a priest or anything similar. I decided to stay Anglican.
If one uses the 1962 Missal during an Anglican Use Mass, one can see just how similar their form of the Mass is to the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Mass. Granted things that appear in the Book of Common Prayer (the placement of the decalogue and the summery of the law, the prayer of humble access right before the faithful receive Holy Communion, and the penitential rite right before the Sursum Corda), but the majority of the Mass is very similar to the Extraordinary Form. In this former Latin rite, now Byzantine Rite Catholic’s (long story how this came to be, it involves me being away from the church for a long time, and apart of the Orthodox Church, before joining Evangelical Protestantism) opinion, this is how the Novus Ordo Mass ought to be.
Eastern orthodox Saint communion with Rome, often called Uniates are not rites but separate churches. It could be said that the right of their mass is different. However, the churches themselves are not rights rather churches. This is a big distinction and one that often angers, orthodox and communion with Rome.
How successful as us? As I see Anglicanism as a good alternative to Catholic and Protestant, but it has become a huge mess. I see a lot of people very disturbed with the direction of the church of England. So my question is and I don’t mean this to be rude or whatever, but how many people are converting from Anglican to Catholicism?
Just going to make a comment on the thumbnail. I’ve never understood the phrase across the tiber or “crossing the tiber” for relations between protestants and catholics. The Vatican is on the northern side of the tiber. What’s across the tiber from the vatican is basically just Southern Italy, hardly a historical epicenter for protestantism.
Very interesting. I wonder if a divorced, remarried Anglican can join or would this be unacceptable? Though l am CofE, l attend Catholic Mass, pray the rosary and consider myself Anglo-Catholic. I am the son of a Catholic father, from an unbroken line of English catholics going back centuries. For reason to long to explain, l was Christened in the protestant faith. The are two orndinariates here in London. l have visited both, though l have not approached the priests, due to the issue l mention.
From what I understand, the option is a possibility that is on the table. However, none of the Lutheran denominations have expressed significant interest yet.
Although the Pope went to the obviously liberal Lutherans in Sweden for a 500 year celebration of the Reformation,Dr . Martin Luther was not mentioned to my knowledge. Would the Pope revoke Dr Martin Luther’s excommunication? Doubtful Dr Luther recognized so many faults in the Roman church and we see the current Pope’s attempts to bring about the prophesied one world religion e.g. saying Muslims are saved ( while my Roman friend said we Lutherans are damned for not belonging to her one true Roman church) and kissing the Quran. As a confessional , conservative LCMS Lutheran, I see no such connection to the Roman church, still so full of faults.
honestly wish the Western Rite was brought back with reunification to the orthodox church. But the affirmation of LGBT folks and Equality for women would kill any chance sadly due to biases in the laws and traditions of orthodoxy. But in orthodoxy you can also get married as a priest. Thats something about the episcopal anglican church I like as its similar to orthodoxy.
Underwhelmed, here. If you're Episcopalian and you wanna be Catholic, just do it. You don't need some foreigner's permission to worship in a traditional way - although that foreigner will revoke that permission when he sees fit.
I'm not sure what other groups such a model would work for. I suppose something similar could be proposed for the various Orthodox rites, but it seems to me that there is too much of a gulf between fully-fledged Orthodox and Roman Catholic, and there are already such things as Eastern Catholic churches. As far as the rest of the Western Church, I don't really see this being worthwhile for the Catholic Church for any other group than High-Church Anglicans. You mentioned that other congregations had significant numbers of members who leaned strongly toward Catholicism. Which would those be?
One example would be a similar system for those in the historically black denominations in the US. The liturgical style (if you call it that) and the culture of their churches is the biggest obstacle some in those churches would have with Catholicism. A ordinariate-style outreach focused toward them I could see meeting a level of success.
@@ReadyToHarvest It seems to me that most of the historically black churches, given the wide variation in the liturgical practices, despite being a definite group, would not be a reasonable candidate. There may be more informal prayer services and things which could be tailored to their traditions and needs, but not an Ordinariate or similar structure. The only group I see with similar potential are Lutherans, though there is greater diversity among Lutheran liturgies than there is among Anglicans
@@jmjaquinas7298 I think ordinates are meant to target groups that have large cultural differences from American Catholicism. In many places in America, the Catholic dioceses still show their Irish, Polish, Italian, or Hispanic roots. This can be alienating to outsiders. I would say African Americans would be good targets because a lot of black churches aren't theologically rigid (huge generalization). Some wouldn't mind accepting Papal authority if they could keep their soulful services and mission focus. Compare this with confessional Lutherans who have high church culture, but are very theologically disciplined and explicitly anti-Pope. The Catholic Church would much rather accept a black gospel/soul liturgy over Lutheran theology. (Although, there was a Lutheran-Catholic movement, but I believe it fizzled out.)
@@Alex-zs3kn I think the Ordinariates really aren’t so much a cultural outreach as an acceptance of slightly altered liturgical forms within the Roman Rite. Anglicanism retained a largely healthy Christian Liturgy, despite being separated from the True Church for almost 500 years. Because the Liturgy was distinct yet largely acceptable it could be adapted to the Holy Mass. The Lutherans are in the same boat. Catholicism has many different cultures within it, and in the US those cultures all flourish. However, only former Anglicans were given an Ordinariate structure because Anglicanism has a discernible and not terribly mangled Liturgy. Many African American churches do have a largely Anglican Liturgy and probably could join the Ordinariate(s). But the Ordinariates really don’t deal so much with broader cultural factors and peculiarly Protestant liturgical innovations can’t be accepted in the Catholic Church
@TheRenaissanceman65 It means that some Protestants (not all) reject historical facts in order to keep their faith in a particular confession. In fact, I'd say that history is the reason I am a Catholic, appart from several other things of course. Many Protestants even say that it is true that the Catholic Church is the one Jesus founded byt that it has theologically ddeviated from the origin. Which is something we can argue with, for instance, priesthood or papacy.
Oh, so there's sort of an in-between Ecumenical stance? I was Presbyterian and converted to Roman Catholicism, I didn't have this option, but that's ok, Ave Maria :)
Nothing in-between about it. These are Anglicans who have entered the Catholic Church but have been allowed to retain many of their customs and traditions.
I believe there are ordinariates that stemmed from Lutheranism as well... Also, "Hebrew Catholicism" is mostly in Israel, but it works similarly to an ordinariate.
Even the Catholics would say that every believer is more than allowed to follow the commandments of Jesus, there are just certain works that are relegated to vetted members of the community to limit abuse.
You can't have it both ways you're missing the main point that Mary most holy and she appeared at Bayside New York said must come back and accept the truth they protested against and this includes Protestants and Orthodox the two separated brethren from the true church Mary also said no one can call themselves Catholic unless they come under the pope... And Christ is king... PS revealed to the church there is a right place and a right time and right persons, I believe if they come back it will be during the Great revival this is not the right place right time or the right people especially when there is error are in the Catholic church right now and the Orthodox Church and the Protestant Church wrong timing... And when these things occur properly it's under the influence of the holy spirit..
I don't think you actually understand 'Anglicanism' as a liturgical form (rite), which is distinctly English. It's not only about hierarchical structures in relation to the Church of England, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Queen as its Supreme Governor.
There 32 Catholic Churches in this world. Can we please state as Roman Catholic? Catholic just means universal. Lutheran’s also recite the nicene creed, which sights “one Catholic apostlic Church. From the looks of things, all churches are in trouble. (..except the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church….just say’n) can we please stop parsing each other.
So I can honour not just the pope as the spiritual sword,but also honour the monarch as the temporal . again?.....as pope Boniface said we recognize 2 swords one temporal and the other the spiritual sword....I'm interested in this as that is what Peter said in the Bible we are to be a nation of priests and kings....read Peters epistles thoroughly and you will be suprised what we find ther it's like charligmagn and the monarchs wher ment to be....
As a former Catholic it’s good to see how removed I am from all the the hair-splitting, legalisms, and rule-making. It’s like the church is run by lawyers, not people who understand or care about loving one another.
I have no idea what to classify our assembly as; the sign says Baptist, but its pretty much just the Bible, no more no less. Your videos have been both interesting, and a little saddening, learning about the differences in Christendom.
It’s more than just the Bible than you’d think. Everyone looks at the Bible with the presuppositions of their tradition, though few evangelical Protestants recognize it without some reflection on the Reformation. That’s not a jab at you or Protestants (was one for nearly 30 years) btw, just an observation I’ve had. God bless
The further you go back in history the more you’ll find fewer differences. Unfortunately Luther and the Reformation unleaded unprecedented schism in the church. Reform was needed but even the baby was thrown out with the bath water.
@@awm9290 I, "accidently", stumbled back across my original comment. As of recent, I believe I've seen some things within my church that conflict with my personal scriptural readings. It has caused me much grievance. My church, an Independent Baptist church, holds to certain beliefs that are pseudo-scriptural -- in that they have verses to back up their beliefs, but their beliefs don't seem to follow the scriptural logic. I must, thereby, redact my claim that my church follows "the Bible exclusively", because I have seen the dogma and traditions of man, at this point. It grieves me, brethren, that churches would rather make blanket doctrines that conflict with scripture, rather that exercise righteous judgement on a case-by-case basis. Among these abused, blanket, doctrines, seems to be the "law of the stumblingblock". Under our churches dogma, I believe that if Christ walked the Earth today, we would play the Pharisees. Pray for me, brethren. My soul is grieved, and my spirit vexed. Pray this confusion leave me, and that the LORD make my paths straight.
@@polemeros True it's a use within the Latin church but if there were no difference why would those go to an Ordinariate liturgy and not just attend the usual Roman rite in RC parishes?
The Anglo Catholic movement should not be ashamed of its Catholic root it is different from the other denominations in its coming about king Henry 8 challenged Luther with a work called" the seven sacraments"he was awarded the defender of the faith title from the pope, the king must have known the importance of sacred tradition wich I hold dear as a Catholic even the monarchial anointment has survived Henry was fussy about the sacraments this is why he would not entertain Luther it's not a schismatic church but protested against certain uses .. Think about the sspx who stood up against the changing of tradition ... people said are the schismatic ? No the sspx are Catholic body of traditional Catholic priests who will do the ancient rites ther position is a canonical irregularity ...they are canonically irregular ....and an exception Marcel Lefebvre was quick to counter the liberal onslaught of ideologically radical liberal elements in the church in truth men who know the facts would say Marcel Lefebvre deserves the defender of the faith title himself , remember the crown used by Elizabeth 2 has the sapphire of st Edward the confessor,the monarchs of Europe you will always be able to trace to the pope's crowning of charligmann ....when king David and his successors chose their vice regent they would place the key of David upon them,but the line was broken during the Babylonian captivity wich confused the mosaic people ,who the prophet was referring to was Christ ...this is why Simeon Sais "he will be given the throne of his forefather David"it's the bestowing of the key of Christ's kingdom, the key of the kingdom of heaven upon Peter wich gave the pope as christ's vice regant the power to anoint kings in unison with Christ and under him,the old testament bestowing of the key of David is fulfilled by Christ the king of an everlasting throne of whome Peter and his successors can bind and loosen certain laws etc it all goes right back you trace the thrones of Catholic Europe to charligmann and the pope as this is seen as the true beginning of the social kingship of Christ with the establishment of the anointed kings the french monarchy and English are very high infact the vacancy of the french monarchy was seen as a denial of the social kingship of Christ something we need to invigorate the way it has today in France and other countries but learn more on this and the great Catholic kings of England like Richard the Lionheart, Edward etc theas men are given as models of virtue and faith lest we forget real Christendom the french also have an awesome treasurey I mean pre revalutionary France st Louis being a great great warrior st king it's a great great history and ours, god bless
I think at 2:44 when you describe the Anglican Ordinariate as a "very ecumenical, Anglican form of Catholicism," that is not quite true. It is Catholic. Period. The Ordinariate's liturgy is the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite. But I would not call it "ecumenical." I want to thank you again for your wonderfully balanced presentation. It is well-researched, and without polemic. That is a most refreshing--and rare--thing nowadays.
Thanks Steven. On ecumenism, here is what one of the three ordinariates itself says: In the Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis redintegatio), the Catholic Church specified what it would look like to bring all Christians together into communion. The Council said Christian groups would bring their own distinctive traditions to the Catholic Church; they would not be suppressed or absorbed. The Vatican’s remarkable ecumenical gesture in establishing the Ordinariates affirms the Catholic Church’s view that the patrimony of differing Christian spiritualities and liturgies is a treasure meant to be shared within the Catholic tradition. ordinariate.net/about
@@ReadyToHarvest Yes, historically, the word Ecumenical meant “within general communion”, not “interfaith” as it was redefined after WWII. All 21 Councils of the Catholic Church are described as “Ecumenical.”
So they would fall in a similar regard to catholic religious orders. Or some where in between an order and a rite. Following their own hierarchy up to a certain point.
The Anglican ordinariate has its own hierarchy under the pope, it's own Bishops. Once an ordinariate parish is recognized or formed, under the bishop of the personal ordinariate of the chair of St Peter in the United States, not the authority of the local Latin rite bishop, even though they are part of the Latin rite. They have their own Bishops and their own organization. Whereas a religious order doesn't really have Bishops.
@@seanrea550 I'm quite aware of that since I am a deacon of the Church. However, we have a religious order within the bounds of our Parish. In the recent past some of our Parish staff have regularly ministered to these sisters. Because of this, I have learned a great deal about the practical application of how authority works within religious orders and how it is different from how authority works within the diocesan and ordinariate structure. The most obvious difference is that most religious orders have direct access to the superiors who effect them on a daily basis, whereas most of us do not have daily access to our Bishop. There are other differences too, but they're not really germane to the video or the discussion.
@@DavidOatney just a lay person, so the nuance between is beyond me. Orders and rites were the main sub groupings I am firmiliar with. Ordinaries seem to fall somewhere between them.
@@seanrea550 ordinariates are run by Bishops (unless, as the video points out, in the particular special circumstance that the ordinary running the ordinariate happens to be a married priest, in that case he is given the title of Monsignor but the powers of a bishop except for the ability to ordain. That is exceptional, it does happen, but it's not the rule). The Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter in the US is run by a bishop who has the full powers of a bishop and he has absolute governance over the parishes under his control. He runs a diocese, only its geographic boundary is the entire United States and Canada. He is not a suffragan see to any metropolitan so any decision he makes which might be appealed would go directly to the Pope. That's the deal. It's basically the same structure as a bishop running a diocese. They have all of the internal structure that a diocese would have, including a vicar General, a chancellor, and all of the diocesan staff that any other diocese would have.
Gotta say, the fact that my pastor has raised 8 godly children means when he speaks on child rearing I listen. Not sure I would fully trust a single minister... he could understand the Word, but the practical application...
And why not? A priest can be educated to understand marriage. Moreover, priests can acquire in their formation and their experience a good sense of the life of married people. And finally, God can provide them the graces they need.
@@thusundi1963 eh, I get that, I believe anyone who has been given grace can share grace to another situation, but I’ll take council from someone with divine and common grace.
@@mikezeke7041 If you were really to take such a position you would have to reject the writings of St Pail on marriage, as well as most of the Saints of Christian history since very few have been married
Also interesting to note is that some Anglican leaders in the UK are distrustful of the Anglican Ordinariate in their own country. I don't know if it's just the whole politically correct thing of getting offended the moment you feel like someone is trying to convert you, or if it just goes back to the 400+ year rift between Catholics and Anglicans, but as an American I just of shake my head. As an American, the whole idea of a state church is a foreign idea (literally and figuratively), but for the official state church to then get its feathers in a ruffle because someone else is using its forms is doubly mystifying.
Of course they are distrustful of the ordinariate in their own country, its growth there is far more dramatic and it is a direct threat to the Church of England.
Your note about using the forms of anglicanism makes a little sense because the forms of anglicanism can vary from congregation to congregation depending on whether or not the particular Anglican parish and the priest of that parish is high or low. In a high Anglican parish, it's actually Catholic forms they're going to be using. Traditional High anglicanism uses Catholic forms of worship with a very high form of english, the Kings English as we like to say (remember that the King James Bible was originally written for use in the Anglican Church, that's why on the Oxford and Cambridge editions of King James Bible you will find the words "appointed to be read in churches.") As an example, if you've ever seen an Anglican service of even song, it's nothing more than the Catholic Divine Office. That's where it comes from and that's what it copies, it is the old form of the Divine Office translated from Latin into English. In the ordinariate, they use some Anglican forms and some anglicized forms of Catholic worship, but they use essentially the same formula of the Eucharistic consecration itself used in Catholic worship everywhere else. As far as a state Church being mystifying to an american, I would agree that that's the case today but remember that we have had State churches in America. Prior to the 14th Amendment there was nothing preventing The Establishment of a state Church within States themselves. The Congregational Church was the denomination of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts until 1840, that is to say that it received the state support. The Episcopal Church held the same status in Virginia until the 1820s. Now I find the status of little used today because it doesn't do anything but make the church cushy and dependence on state support usually conflicts to a doctrinally watered down, spiritually lifeless body. As a Catholic I can say that we see that with the Catholic church in places like ireland, spain, et.al. where the church was essentially the state Church. But there was a time in history when the church and state were essentially one and the same. The idea of separating the two was as foreign to people as having a state Church would be to us today, that is why the Reformation was so complicated and bloody. One thing both sides agreed on for the most part was the fact that the church and state were one in the same thing. So who control the church control the state, and who controlled the state controlled the church. The 30 years War and its aftermath was really the first idea that you could have any kind of separation between the two in over a thousand years. Even then, the treaty of Westphalia was written based on the supposition that the two were designed to be one in the same. The standard of the treaty was "whose the region, his the religion," that is to say that whichever ruler controlled a given region got to determine whether the religion of that region would be Catholic or Protestant, and if Protestant which flavor of protestantism it would be, because by then there were already a great many of them.
Speaking as an actual Anglican, these 'Anglican' Roman Catholic churches are dishonest. They aren't Anglican at all, just RC churches with the Saint George's Cross scribbled in crayon next to the Papal keys...
