Anita Sarkeesian and the People Who Hate Her | Big Joel 

Just some answers to a few questions I thought you might have. *1) Are you saying that Mario games should be condemned in the same way we condemn nazi propaganda?* No. *2) Are you implying that people are bad when they consume and authentically enjoy politically problematic media?* No. *3)These RU-vidrs aren’t saying all things produced under capitalism are good, they’re saying that the market for video games is mostly men so it’s fine that games are the way they are. That’s a different argument, right?* No it’s not. That’s the same argument. Everything sold under capitalism is sold to the people who buy it. That an audience buys a thing (or that a thing is sold to the people who buy it) does not mean that thing is harmless. *4)You seem to be stepping into some Jack Thompson territory here. Are you implying that any game that romanticizes violence ought to condemned or some such nonsense?* Well, no. While I do think it absolutely is fair to criticize the violence in certain games and to criticize the medium as a whole for its over-reliance on the treatment of violence as cool, good, or just, we have to acknowledge that violence is the mechanical lingua franca of games in general. As I advise in my video, we must always consider the way the violence depicted in a game interacts with a broader culture. For instance, a game wherein torturous violence is committed against, say, an arrested terrorist paints a very different picture from a game where violence is committed for some genuinely good cause or against a cartoon character. We have to be specific and attentive to these things.* *5) You say you don’t like cultivation theory but never challenge Sargon or Thunderf00t’s obviously silly idea that for cultivation theory to be true, murder rates or whatever must literally increase. You’re aware this is silly right?* Yes I am aware. The burden of proof these guys demand from cultivation theory is absurd, and they fail to recognize that 1) Games might have more covert negative effects on the people who play them than literally making them murder or 2) Games could just be causing violent crime to go up even as murder rates fall. That said, this was just an unnecessary thing to talk about haha. *6) (the one i referred to in the video) You say in your video that the association between violence and sexuality is a problematic thing that Anita sees in culture. I’ll have you know that plenty of good people, women included, are aroused by images of violence against women. What’s your response?* I fully recognize that there are all sorts of things that would be bad were they to occur in real life, or non-consensually, that are perfectly fine to fantasize about alone or with a partner. But this fact does not excuse all media from criticism. BDSM media can convey bad messages or good messages or fine messages in the same way all media can. And that violence occurs in a piece of art is not, on the face of it, enough to condemn it. Again, we must look at the interaction between a work and the broader social structure before we can fully understand its subtext and meaning. For instance, does Double Dragon encourage us to look at women as objects or subjects in their sexuality? Does it pose violence against the female character as a fun prop or as a significant event? Is the violence against her meaningfully contextualized as erotic fantasy? Again, I haven’t played the game and these are obviously very complicated questions, questions that are contingent on the precise functioning (or lack of functioning, as these RU-vidrs might have it) of the patriarchy within modern culture. *7) You said that claims about the harmfulness of art are not referring to the literal impact art has on society and then say the only way we can ascertain the messages of art is through that society. Isn't that a contradiction?* No. To be honest I have no clue why I'm including this question. I just suspect one person might comment it and it'll puzzle me then as it puzzles me now. Those are two different things haha

what do you mean video games are not real life

Honestly the worst part about Amazing Atheist’s and Sargon’s videos is the part where they act like it’s a no brainer that video games are OBVIOUSLY made for men so OF COURSE they’re going to objectify women. Like...they never question why video games are sold specifically to men? They never wonder about why certain items are gendered under capitalism and why other items, like apples and cigarettes, are not? They never wonder why male centered culture perpetuates harmful stereotypes? Why do video games HAVE to be male? Why can’t male centered media promote respect and emotional strength, etc? Obviously not ALL video games are like this but it astounds me that they just never think to ask...why?

ok i feel like a lot of people are missing the point of this video. it's not really about anita sarkeesian at all, it's about the ineffective and harmful ways in which people choose to engage with media criticism. you may be unconvinced by sarkeesian's commentary itself, but this video is just here to point out that some of the criticism of her is fundamentally flawed in an important way. watch the whole video and actually listen to what he's saying, it's important and interesting regardless of your opinion on sarkeesian herself.

good video! just one thing: your voice is much quieter than sargon's voice, so when i turn it up to hear you and then you play a clip from him, his smarmy gamergating blows my eardrums out

welcome back

Watching old GamerGate videos is so funny. "Hey, this hobby is dominated by male voices and perspectives." "Well that's because it's dominated by male voices and perspectives. Checkmate."

you have anime eyes

“Bright red lipstick to impose arousal” is the most disgusting thing I’ve ever heard lmao

Lady literally says "You can/should enjoy games even though it's important to be aware of problems in them" in every video. Somehow gets twisted into "she wants to ban video games!"

Can't wait for your critique on Lubenshluben 2: Electric Boogaloozen

Can anyone tell which thunderf00t video had the double dragon argument? I need to know if he glossed over the ending of the first game, where the two brothers fight each other to see which one gets the girl. I’m really curious, and I’m *not* going to go through all of his Anita Sarkesia videos to find the right one

TLDR: Mario is a Working Class Hero

"Bright red lipstick to imply arousal" RU-vid was a mistake

Why does Joel have kawaii anime eyes?

The bit about Mario and Princess Peach's social classes really got me because Mario being of a lower class than Peach *is* part of the male fantasy- the idea that the everyman can rise up to the challenge and be rewarded with a "princess", either literal or metaphorical, for his efforts in the end. Peach's status as a princess increases her appeal as a reward. How many heroes would set out to rescue the ugly milkmaid from two towns over? Not many. Edit: before whinging at me please go to 8:40 in the video for context as to what I made my comment about, for fuck's sake.

I'm not sure whether Sargon of Akkad and Thunderf00t will watch this video. You have to keep in mind that it is about 7 sargons long.

I remember being 14 and unironically agreeing with the anti-sjw and anti-Anita arguments. Even back then I knew something wasn’t quite right about those guys, but I had no idea just how bad it was. I’m so glad I came to my senses

Also pretty disingenuous that Thunderfoot uses the ending of the remake to make his point while showing the gameplay of the original, as if that's been a norm the whole time.

The funniest part about Thunderf00t's point about 'the girl delivering the last blow on te bad guy' IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING ANITTA POINTS OUT IN HER VIDEOS! LIKE, THAT EXACT SAME SCENE! DUDE! JUST WATCH THE VIDEO OF THE PERSON YOU ARE CRITICIZING INSTEAD OF SCREAMING ABOUT WOMEN PLAYING VIDYA GAMES

Wait... video games AREN'T REAL? Next you're gonna tell me anime isn't real...

these guys: these game don't objectify women also these guys: of course these games focus on the parts of the body men want! that's how the games sell!

I just wish Thunderfoot would upgrade his mic. Seriously he’s been on RU-vid for how long? And he still sounds like he’s talking through a bowl of macaroni and cheese

Sex work is absolutely fine. Depicting sex workers as disposable props who don't have value is not

These sexist themes are just so engrained into our culture that criticizing them in some video games makes people assume she wants all video games banned. Like its as if people cannot imagine a video game without those themes. Wowie

Also, it's weird watching this in hindsight and seeing Thunderfoot, as a right-wing reactionary and self-identified "gamergater", speak positively and non-judgmentally about sex work. I have no idea what he's up to these days, but given the way the internet reactionary tide has shifted, I'd be surprised if he isn't espousing the idea that OnlyFans is responsible for the degeneration of western society.

"He's just an innocent boy! Hunting for turnips!"

Thankfully, Hbomberguy made it impossible for me to take these guys seriously, but... jesus, that clip of Thunderfzerozerot talking so explicitly sexually about Anita's makeup will never not skeeve me out.

"appearance-enhancing cosmetics" I'm sorry ThunderfZEROZEROt, you just failed the Turing test.

Who could forget "gamer gate" the controversy that launched a thousand commentator channels

If media had no effect on your views, the advertisement industry wouldn't exist.

The Mario example actually works against Thunderf00t's argument. Even ALTHOUGH Peach is a princess and Mario is "just" a plumber, he is more potent and active while she is not a single bit. So even the politically most powerful woman is weaker than a lower class man.

Hating Anita particularly always seemed like hating vanilla pudding - with a wide variety of tastes and textures out there folks are getting mad about something extremely bland and inoffensive. That's not to dismiss Sarkeesian, she's just very boring, straight to the point, monotone, and uninspired with her videos. I know that's deliberate because she didn't want to stoke any coals of rage - yet it happened anyways. Whatever she said the hate towards her was clearly never for just what she said or how she said it. I mean, folks got mad at "Ms. Pacman's design is just Pacman with feminine characteristics added to it." It was always something that she represented - more than just women intruding in a traditionally men's space either. The hate towards her was a pushback of treating gaming (and other media for that matter) as anybody but disposable toys. The great hypocrisy of the gaming community is wanting games to be respected by outsiders but never to be critically examined.

Imagine being so angered by women existing that you become Sargon.

If Anita sarkeesian didn't exist literally every RU-vid skeptic would have become a crypto currency guy

"It's not like you use red lipstick to imply arousal" Thunderfoot, who hurt you?

Most people don't understand that if you criticize something they enjoy, that doesn't mean you want to forbid it from existing, censor it, think that the people who enjoy it are pieces of shit and want to destroy their lives. People take things way too personally and have a very difficult time distinguishing what they like from who they are which I find to be of grave concern. And Ironically it's always the 'free speech lovers' that get their panties in a twist a soon as somebody uses their free speech to be critical. And I say this as someone who's not much of an Anita Sarkeesian fan.

Feminists: This video game portrays women like objects and I find that concept degrading. Salty gamer bois: No, you don’t understand, it’s okay for women to be portrayed as objects, because that’s what men like! .-.

Arguing that Mario isn't a male power fantasy because it's about a working class blue collar dude who proves himself to and wins the affections of a princess by defeating a bunch of bad guys is... an interesting take. I'll give Thunderfoot that.

The makeup... wtf was that "Don't sexualize women, look at how it's so prevalent in this industry and how that's bad" "You wear makeup to make yourself sexy" Whattt

Best quotes: “He’s just a boy, an innocent boy, minding his own business, hunting for turnips.” “Cigarettes kill 400,000 people every year, but apples, they don’t do nearly that much damage. In fact, it’s said that they keep the doctors away.”

Every time guys make these sort of clueless defenses of sexism I’m reminded of the time I watched Shrek 2 with my brother and he said “He should have kissed her! Fiona is way better looking as a human!” and I responded “Yeah, so is Shrek” and he gave me this completely dumbfounded look like he hadn’t even considered the female perspective. He was so used to everything catering to the male perspective that he just assumed I thought the same as him, that even as a straight woman my focus would be on Fiona’s attractiveness too. That’s what these guys sound like when they’re acting like there’s no problem and mindlessly repeating stuff they’ve heard like “s*x work isn’t bad so this character isn’t bad” without understanding the lager picture. What they rally mean is “I don’t want it to be bad so it can’t be and here are some quotes I’ve heard taken out of context to prove that”

Has anyone explained to Sargon and Thunderf00t that their own videos are, in fact, media? By their own beliefs, their videos have no persuasive power and therefore why should they bother?

Jesus, thunderfoots arguments are so bad, they are like a "best of cringe" compliation.

Also princesses in real life never had agency, so 'princess privilege' wouldn't amount to much

Fundamentally thunderfoot and co. had her argument backwards. It's not that male-centered narratives in video games cause sexism, it's that sexism causes male-centered narratives in video games. And, like with your hypothetical Nazi movie, this is worthy of critique whether it causes or simply reflects bad ideologies.

I can’t imagine being so much of wet blanket that I’d get mad at someone whose videos amount to feminism 101 criticism of video games

"bright red lipstick to imply arousal" made me barf

"Mario is an Italian plumber" When has he ever "plumbed" anything? What game? It's the most irrelevant defence of a fictional character I've heard in a while.

On the point about women being treated as sex workers i.e. objects, imagine a game with a female protagonist. All of the female characters serve to help her on her quest, give her information, and fight in battles with her. Meanwhile, all of the male characters offer to do pushups, cut down trees and build bookcases. Do you think the alt-right youtubers would defend that, saying doing pushups and building shelves is just another way to use your body?

scared to look at the comments wish me luck

my headcanon is that joel is in a panic room to hide from the backlash and that's why the bg is orange/red

"I am from gamergate and I care about facts and evidence and reason" might be the cringiest sentiment ever spoken aloud

*big joel big joel big joel big joel*

So, I am subscribed to the Feminist Frequency channel so I have sen quite a few of Ms Sarkeesian's videos. I don't agree with every thing that she (and the rest of the hosts) say, but I enjoy the different lens through which to view video games. As video games are literally my favorite thing in the world (sorry family) hearing them talked about in different ways is super awesome. Like, "hmm, I never thought about it like that..." and stuff like that.

Let me preface this comment by saying I am a fan of your videos, Mr. Big Joel. For the vast majority of your content, I find your views insightful and strike deeper than most content creators on RU-vid that I'm subscribed to. That is why I watch your videos, and will continue to do so in the future. Your "wow look at how awkward I am" jokes do get very cringy though. I guess you're trying to look charming, but they come off forced and I cringe almost every time. Just one person's opinion here. You do you. All that said, contrary to your judgments made on other people's criticisms of Anita Sarkeesian, I submit that it is *you* who displays very lackluster reasoning that is quite uncharacteristic of you. This is not to defend Thunderf00t or Sargon (the latter of which I honestly can't stand), but to merely voice my objections to what I see as very biased and poorly thought out logic. My objections are as follows: You begin the video by making the argument that critics of Anita take the plots of video games far too literally in order to excuse negative female tropes. If I am following your argument correctly, you see a problem in taking events like a woman being kidnapped and her loved ones rescuing her in real life, and applying those sentiments to video games; since as you say "This isn't the real world. It's a game." If this is true, then you are erecting a barrier between the actual world we all live in, and saying those do not necessarily translate into how we perceive things in fictional universes. I agree with this wholeheartedly, but apparently you don't - or at the very least, you see it as a one way street. This divide between fiction and non-fiction is precisely why we cannot associate attitudes towards women in video games to women as a demographic in the real world. You seem to be arguing that how we feel towards loved ones in real life can't be used to explain damsels because video games are fictional, but then you argue for depictions in video games being harmful in real life. Contrary to your very weak and condescending rebuttal in you pinned comment, this is a contradiction - or at the very least, a distinction you have not adequately explained. I do agree with you, though, that art absolutely can cause harm in society. Ironically enough, the major component that you seem to miss towards art being harmful is *context.* Your example of Nazi propaganda cannot be harmful simply as a work of art or fiction. It has to exist in a context that makes it harmful to society. There needs to be advocacy for Nazism, a culture that celebrates anti-semitism, or somebody to take a work of fiction and try to bring elements of it to the real world. That is why Nazi propaganda is harmful. This is also why negative depictions of women (and violence too) in video games are not. There is no advocacy for these fictional attitudes for them to manifest in the real world. This again goes to the barrier between fiction and non-fiction - we are all able to distinguish between fantasy and reality, and they do not cross over without advocacy. This is why all present evidence *do* show that violence in video games is not correlated to violence in reality. This is also why your example of the 'context-less Jewish image' works against you. Yes, it is only harmful in context because the context might advocate those attitudes among regular people. Kidnapping and imprisoning women is *not advocated* for and the context in the game displayed the action as being evil. Hence, their presence cannot be shown to be harmful to society through this reasoning. That you were unable to notice this perfectly underlines why I see your logic as so fundamentally flawed, and I believe your "less-than-unbiased" attitude is preventing you from noticing this. One last smaller point: Yes, there is nothing wrong with prostitution in a vacuum. No, there is nothing wrong with prostitution *in context either.* There could be reasons why prostitution is a *sign* of issues - such as poverty, disease, abuse, etc. - but absolutely zero of those were shown by the Asian woman in that video game clip. As a result, there is no problem to follow based on what is shown. Prostitution should not be stigmatized as a practice, and I found your undefined and vague objections to its presence in video games problematic. Sorry for the text wall. There is even more to say than this, but it's enough for now.

Ok, so I was raised conservative, and when I left the religion I was raised in, I watched a lot of youtube atheist content, including Sargon of Akkad and Thunderfoot. I became very anti-SJW while watching their content (I was like 13-16 at this time) but I stopped watching their videos, and in the past few years my political views have been moving further and further left, thus leading me to watching this video, and after years of not hearing their voices or seeing their videos, I just have one question.... Were they always this annoying? Like content aside, just the way Thunderfoot talks is really annoying to me, and it's just like "did I really use to enjoy this content? Why?"

I wish this video existed several years ago and snapped me and my dumbass out of the anita hate circlejerk. Even as someone who really enjoyed Double Dragon Neon and Binary Domain I can see Anitas point ragrding their depiction of women, and its nice to see that point put into context instead of misrepresented by some hack skeptic who takes the scenario too literally.

ITs HaRd To ThInk oF a MoRe UnDerPriVileDgeD MalE ThaN An ItAliAn PlUmBeR

It's funny, that first video by Thunderbunny was actually the point I became interested feminist theory. Before that I was actually pretty convinced by the hole sceptic community, but his argument was so strained and had so many holes that 15 year old me thought maybe 'I should give this hole femonism thwng a go'

I love that these 'Gamer' bros point out that the main audience for video games are typically men, and don't go, gee, I wonder if that has to do with an aggressive media campaign to market to boys, and stories that explicitly caters to male power fantasies and decades of online gaming that harasses women every time they join a lobby. Like, they prove her point.

"the damsel in distress trope is good, actually, because the kidnapper is bad and the guy saving her is doing a good thing" might be the single dumbest argument I have heard in my life, which is saying A *LOT.* (just found your channel through your "conservative comedy ruined my life" video and I'm binging, hi, love your stuff)

"I'm a serious gamer. I don't play games." -thunderfoot

Remember when a handful of misanthropic neckbeards convinced a bunch of impressionable kids to harass a reasonable pop culture critic? Those were gentler times.

I aint gay but u cute

All the contrapoints fans in these comments. I am *LIVING.*

Love the assertion that "Games are like this because they're _made_ for _men_ !!!" Like yeah, that's literally her point; they're made only to appeal to men and they use harmful tropes to achieve that and that's a problem. It's not even that she's advocating any repercussions, she's literally just pointing it out because games have historically also been made _by_ men and therefore have a bias that they don't even realize; it's just about awareness and reflection.

I feel dirty, red lipstick apparently implies arousal. I just thought it looked badass. I didn't realize it would cause people to have hard-ons when I wear it walking down the street. I feel so dirty.

In conclusion... gamers need to realize that W E L I V E I N A S O C I E T Y

I don't know why the idea of critiquing media we're a fan of is such a terrible idea to some, we can still enjoy it but it's important to learn and grow from things and understand what they say about us

Mario is about the upper class only being able to survive on the backs of the working class. Bowser is economic recession and Peach refuses to take steps to protect herself, knowing that Mario (the working class) will come and bail her out.

Thou who dare to peek into the darkness of the comments section. Beware. Some things in this Universe aren't meant for the sane of mind...

Agree or disagree with Sarkeesian she brings up issues that should have discussion...and nothing said should have encouraged the vitriol she encountered.

literally never heard of thunderfoot before but Wow, just listening to a short clip of him talking is enough to make me Cringe.

The only reason Mario is a plumber is that when working with extremely primitive game displays, a few pixels to give him overalls is enough to make him more than just a generic man form. Aside from his ability to use pipes to travel around the Mushroom Kingdom, there is no evidence he even knows about plumbing. The only place he's actually treated like a low-class plumber is in the incredibly different movie adaptation, which most Mario fans completely disavow. In the actual games, he's treated like a standard knight figure who happens to wear overalls. Trying to pretend that the Mario games actually represent a low-class man is just intellectual dishonesty. No one could seriously make that argument. There's no serious debate even occurring; it's "shut up" pretending to be smart.

Lol these recent comments are TOXIC shit.

Oh god. I read the comments.

I still think a lot of her criticisms are invalid she definitely ignored the context for many of the games she criticizes. However I don’t condemn anybody because they make what I feel to be bad criticisms. She did absolutely abuse her Kickstarter though. The production cost on her show is not so high that it justifies the infrequency with which she puts out shows. And she totally didn’t deliver on the Kickstarter prizes. Good video but it didn’t convince me of very much. I do agree with you that the way she has been criticized by anti-sjws isn’t optimal. I don’t despise Anita sarkeesian but I do think she stains what should be legitimate discourse. Looking at games through a feminist lens could bring about interesting discussion. But not the way she does it.

I'm actually convinced that thunderf00t has a secret "Anita love" tattoo or something, he's like a good 400 videos on her 😭

Hey, the game can be improved on cus it doesn't show women as people "But women aren't being killed by that game! FACTS" Yeah... but you can still improve the game. that's what a critique does

I guess that's the deal with art and media - statements aren't made in a vacuum. They're made by people who have certain ideas and messages, to be consumed by people who are ready to absorb those ideas and messages, and by people who already hold these ideas and messages as true or appealing. I'm sick of being told I should ignore the ideas and messages that I spot in media, as if my own mind is over reacting, and that I should just accept media as a blank, context-less slate. This video helped untangle some knots in my mind, so thank you for making it.

I disagree with Anita Sarkessian(I do agree with some of her points though) but I don't think she should've gotten the toxicity turned towards that she has.

I sorted by new and I saw the abyss. My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined.

The problem with Anita is she focused on every single example of female characters in videos that could be construed as "sexist". Multiple times she listed nuanced female characters with sexualized traits as sexist despite their own personal strengths. She wasn't very informed on games and Josh Macintosh clearly read summaries for quite a few games stories rather than experiencing it himself

I used to be a big fan of Thunderfoot (kinda still like him), Armored Skeptic and Shoeonhead, I fully bought into the anti-feminist thing and thought SJWs going overboard with feminism is going to lead to some sort of 1984-style thought police and anti-free-speech totalitarianism. Fortunately with Trump bringing out the worst in people and Bernie Sanders 2016 campaign pulling me to the left on most issues I started to realize how overblown the fearmongering about third-wave feminist is and how necessary intersectional activism still is. I also give Shaun, Hbomberguy and Three Arrows credit for offering a different point of view. To this day I still have a hard time to "like" Anita, but I've come a long way and I'm thankful for that.

Video games dont cause sexist violence, they reflect a world that is already sexist and violent.

when I was a teenager I hated Anita Sarkeesian and loved watching SJW fail/owned comps I try to live a life defined by understanding and compassion nowadays - it's just a shame at how much of a negative impact people like Sargon can have

Gamergate was what? 6-7 years ago? Jesus looking back I was one pissed off kid. Had you made this video at the height of it, I wouldn't be subscribed to you

Games are art, art affects culture, and thus it is important to criticise that art when it presents a harmful ideology. It doesn't mean you can't like said art, but it's important to acknowledge its flaws. Love ya Joel ❤

So are you saying all of that time I spent playing Farm Simulator 2015, I wasn't ACTUALLY building a farm?!?!

One part that stood out to me was when those RU-vidrs said that video games are directed to males, so _obviously_ they would objectify women. What about the females that play video games like me? What about the males not attracted to females? I feel like part of the reason there aren't that many females that play video games is because it seems so "male-centric". Maybe if we had different protagonist options (e.g. male, female, non-binary, etc), then we could have more different genders playing these games, and ultimately, changing some of the video game industry.

Great video. Also, I really like your sweater.

I only became aware of her because of Thunderfoot when I thought he was a reasonable man, which is why I hated her for a number of years. I since started watching her videos, and she genuinely made some great points and had me aware of the problematic tropes that I just brushed over in the past even though I don't agree with her quite often. On a hindsight, it felt so easy and comfortable to let someone else form my opinion even though it was quite obviously the antithesis of being an independent thinker as I wish myself as.

Fun fact, Thunderf00t made a big announcement years ago that he was leaving the skeptic youtube sphere over disagreements with the trend in the anti-progressive direction. The Amazing Atheist did something similar. Unfortunately, that community was basically taken over by people like Sargon, whose whole deal is being contrarian and advocating as many bad things as possible.

I love that he reduces her wearing lipstick to trying to look aroused. Nothing to do with wanting to look nice for herself and in front of the all seeing camera.

An understanding of ART? But games are SCIENCE! Thunderf00t is a SCIENTIST! There's no ART in POPULAR MEDIA! Picasso wasn't an ARTIST!

You have really been making me think Big Joel. I’ve only been watching for two days and you’re making rethink a lot of stuff in my life. This s good stuff.

i’m sorry but i immediately lose respect for everyone who says something like FACTS and LOGIC or whatever when talking about feminism or leftism or whatever. like i don’t like anita but anti-SJWs who spend all their time yelling at feminists are as, if not more immature than the people they yell at.

this really coincides with Trump’s ongoing argument against Carroll, saying she can’t be a victim if she’s made money off of being victimized. it’s ludicrous

You should probably scroll back up