Apparently It's Okay To Cheat In The FGC Now 

Watching a tekken player with 10 minutes of experience doing 22 electrics in a row and commenting "well, standing electrics aren't that hard to begin with" is the most mishima player thing to say 😂

My first time playing tekken brah i didnt even know what the star was 😂

Damn, you know TMM is serious when he lets the same song play 900x on loop

"People who were interested in this also bought... Leroy Smith"

so... they banned Daigo's controller just to allow another controller that has the same properties wich they used to ban Daigo's... a m a z i n g

"We allow cars" that killed me😂

Standing electrics arent hard to do? I literally had inflammation on my thumb when i first learned it on pad

Bruh it took me 3years to get consistently good electrics.... watching that guy do like 10 in a row made me feel like I wasted my time....

I mean I know it's a year later but people who play on keyboard already have been able to do this. At least during the online game I can use my wasd keys for movement, along with the arrow keys and numb pad all at the same time

Specifically for Tekken where you only need the four face buttons for attacks, you can do this double input thing on pad as well by binding the shoulder buttons to directional inputs. Just bind R1 to forward and push triangle and R1 simultaneously. Or on stick, bind the third top row to forward (on the PS4/Steam button binder).

ive been using playstation pad since 20 years ago and will still use normal playstation pad till the day i die

Making a controller is easy but tekken still requires a high level of intuition and instinct to win. You can't be completely brain dead and make your way up the ranks. That can never be circumvented

Fighting games was like playing an instrument , you practice and repeat over and over to make “music “. Now people want the instrument to play the music itself.

Cheating no,this Hitbox Crossup controller just has shortcuts to doing the input,it's not like the player is pressing one button and doing a wind god fist,a gohado, goshoryu & tatsu.if you've played streetfighter you know guile's charge moves can be done on pad and analog stick some players will charge for the sonicboom then quickly charge for the flashkick if you want to ban the hitbox cross-up ban the standard ps4,Xbox&nintendo pro controller too because it can be done using those too.they are just as legal as a standard hitbox, mixbox,fightstick, keyboard etc.

I don't even consider myself the most dedicated Tekken player and even this sort of makes me question its introduction. I get things like the mixbox: It still requires directional input, and defo easier than stick, it still has a chance of human error. Something like this defeats the purpose of actually y'know... Playing the game? People who defend it don't see why it's not really in the spirit of things. Being able to be good at something (which I admittedly, am not) requires time, dedication and also it's meant to be the way to enjoy it. Sure nowadays not everyone is willing to play stick, but as long as what you have doesn't have an immediate inherit advantage (for example, compare a pad with turbo function vs one without in a game like Mario Party or something) then it still is putting effort into the game. Twenty two electrics at the repeated press of a single button? Who knows what this will be used for and certainly will just make players who have played the game with arcade sticks, keyboards without macro and whatnot, leave because what's the point of dedication, when all you need to do is press a few buttons without any real input from your own end. How can one distinguish from actual skill to someone just using glorified macros if this becomes widespread? Price doesn't seem to be an issue for a lot of players who would rather seek an immediate advantage over putting time into improving.

I understand that they're trying to make one of the hardest games easier to play, but the difficulty is what makes Tekken Tekken. If you win a race with a self driving car, did you really win?

I seriously amaze when i see jdcr win with heihachi because of his execution, if people use mishima with crossup and win, i didnt know if im going to be as amaze

I don't understand why people keep moving the goal posts. This controller allows really difficult things to be executed with no difficulty. It's cheating, that's all there is to it.

Just found you a couple of days ago. Loving your content man keep it up - A Lars main :)

I agree that having more than one set of direction inputs seems like a clear place to draw the line. Mixbox is an advantage but I dont think it's an unfair one.

Just make them put a proximity transmitter on those at EVO, so that when a player with one enters main stage, "Chicken!" will be played.

i'm getting tired of stuff like "hey you struggling to beat this game, don't have time to train don't wanna learn the fundamental , wanna slap gamers who wasted their life mastering the game. just spend on this and you will be the same level as them" This is what Modern gaming has become

It's funny that this video came out today (almost, it's already after midnight here) and exactly today I came up with the idea of binding additional forward and backward input on my keyboard so I can do the EWGF easier with only one hand. Tekken did come out with two sets of directional input in mind since I am not using a macro and bound the left stick left and right in the game options.

The future is now old man

MainMan would still own that guy that was showing off his 22 electrics.

I'm sure that there were palms greased in the right areas to let this happen. I'm not sure how this is different than using the pad and joystick on a console remote at the same time other than being less awkward. As far as the Hitbox/Mixbox multi-input advantage goes, it doesn't exist. Simultaneous input scrubbers are pretty standard in control boards these days.

They can't make that legal. What if other sports did the same, allowed strange new tech, all sports would crumble, what are they thinking? This is so stupid.

Waiting for the Taunt- Jet Upper edition..

I hope Harada and Murray won't accept this shit on any TWT tournament.

I think with this thing might also make charge characters on SF broken. Their moves have overall better frames but require the charge, so you dont have access to them without it. Hence the the balancing. motion moves are worse but you can access them at all times. Therefore I can almost safely conclude charge characters would be the strongest on SF using this controller.

It's a completely unrelated sport, but the situation reminds me a lot of some shooting competitions I've seen for benchrest shooting. Some have rules that are so lax that competitors can effectively build a stand for their gun and set it up in such a way that the only thing they need to do is very gently pull the trigger. I bring up the example because it made me feel the exact feeling that I assume you're feeling, people competing in that way aren't really doing so in the spirit of both the sport, and competition in general.

Doesn't the dual shock have 2 sets of directional inputs? I'm not really seeing the difference but keen to understand

A pad has two directional inputs with the analog and d-pad which can in fact be used together in most games, albeit clumsily. All this does is make it more intuitive to take advantage of that, just as the input layout on a stick is arguably more intuitive than on a pad; it's not something otherwise impossible to achieve. I fail to see how this could be considered cheating.

I feel it also showcases problems with building things to heavily on good execution rather than good decision making. In Tekken an electric is a pretty safe option most of the time yes if you get to predictable they could duck it but being to predictable with any move is a bad idea unless its truly broken. Whereas say a DP in SF is an incredibly powerful move but it can be punished hard if blocked making it a lot more risky. I preferred SF2s balancing mentality where inputs were made to limit how often you could do them and from what state i.e retreating, walking forward, crouching, standing etc and to their power. From a personal standpoint I am much more interested in decisions made in fighters than execution. Allowing people to get to a good baseline of execution imo just helps lower the skill floor and helps to raise the skill ceiling because players now cannot rely on better execution to give them a substantial advantage they have to out think the opponent instead and ofc have knowledge of the game like usual. There is still room for execution to shine however because sticks like this wont be able to account for timing such as linking attacks although thats more of a 2D fighter thing (they can still plink as usual though). Whether its banned or not is largely irrelevant to me I mean people could still use it offline and abuse it but then they could just set up macros on PC if they are that way inclined and make it even easier. To give a true even ground you would have to enforce a control type and that is not going to be fair to those who have played for years on another. At tournament level execution is usually at a high enough standard I feel that a controller like this will make little odds although I could very well be wrong.

The look on MainMan's face when he sees those one button electrics, my god, the disgust 😂

With this, you can do electrics with 1 hand. Tap the forward button then followed by forward+down+2 buttons. You can do it in mixbox and regular hitbox too but only in player 1.

It is funny how Tekken boomers want new players to come into their game at the same time they want someone to spend 10 years to learn how to do one move from one character with consistency. You need to come with solid arguments on why should this be banned at Evo. It is because has 2 sets of diretional input? Oh well so we have to ban Dualshock too. The series jand community needs to adapt to this new "technology" (isn't even a new technology just a clever way to use the inputs that was always there) Imagine at F1 if people discover a new fuel technology (lighter and generates more combustion) available to everyone but TMM Motors don't want to use it because his engineers will need to adapt his cars and that demand time and money. So instead of TMM Motors start to use this new fuel he proceeds to complain to everyone how this new fuel is cheating, any new pilot now can beat Schumacher track records and that is not fine. And TMM Motors sstay surprised when they allow people to use the new fuel in the next season....but, it's cheating...

it's funny, i actually got to use this controller in person at genesis 8 and i was talking with the rep who was selling it and i mentioned this video and he said "yea the mainman one?" which is funny to consider that they've seen this video and understand the complaints

Every ps4 and xbox controller has a joystick AND a Dpad, so why is it weird to have more options to input directions at the same time now?

Actually a pad and a keyboard also can have two sets of directional input. ( the pad has the d-pad and the left stick and the keyboard also has the binding for the d-pad and the left stick )

Tokidos modified stick that allowed him to do standing U2 with Akuma in usf4 got banned and this is even worse. Ban this.

8:23 Lee Season 3 be like :'(

Hey I just got into the Tekken FGC, I have played very little and I saw that we can map buttons. I saw a clip where the developer of the game was mapping buttons, using L2 and R2 for 1 + 2 and 3 + 4 (I think). I was wondering, are using those shoulder buttons frowned upon? Should I make it easier for myself to get those tight inputs and get frowned upon (not easy as to use that cross up pad) or should I stick to the the standards?

If you set attacks to the shoulder buttons of a PS4 pad, you can have access to 2 movement sets and do the same thing. It's legal because of that reason, because the second set of movement is feeding into the R Stick input of a pad.

The instrument you choose to play a game with can either make or brake a game . in this case, it'll ruin the game

Fighting games have been getting more and more user friendly as it is. Sadly, people have lost the dedication and just want to pick up and win or be rewarded for nothing, and not only have game developers done this when it comes to fighting games, but now people are looking to extend it to the controller as well. Fighting games were never intended to be easy. They were always seen as a genre that is difficult to pick up and now that's lost, where skilled players are no longer being rewarded for all their time that they have put into the game, as the newer players are being spoonfed

Flawless electrics with no effort....ummm..i don't know how I feel about that

As a Smash 64 and melee player i can understand where you are coming from. It took me years to build consistent muscle memory in both games. At the same time i do like the idea of altering the barrier of entry for newer competitive players and raising the bar for veterans. I think the big problem is having a certain controller or fight stick become required in competitive play. I do not think it is a good idea to let this remain legal for tekken or other current games but i think in future games if companies develop around the idea of people playing with these custom controllers it could be a really good thing for fighting games as a whole. I personally do not get competitive in traditional fighting games because the controllers and required inputs feel janky and inconsistent. Having something like the hitbox would make someone like me feel more inclined to learn a traditional fighting game instead of having to grind for hours on a single move just so you can use it on a basic level.

I don't know what to say 🤔

Picking up Jin and Kazuya recently (playing on DS4) I actually miss 22 electrics in a row before landing one

Doesn't tekken have a built in input cleaner ? You can't press 2 directions in the same time

It sucks cuz pulling off electrics is so satisfying BECAUSE it’s hard and it’s the payoff of that labor but you lose out on the journey of practice and the intrinsic motivation of being a good player

I like how people argue that a pad player can use a stick and dpad at the same time while forgetting the Crossup allows for directional inputs on either hand

Dont blame hitbox, all of this can already be done on pad. Fighting game developers should simply disable allowing use of both analog and dpad at the same time.

Hitbox must have a lot of lobbyists in EVO

I completely agree. The clip of the guy doing 22 electrics blew me away. At this point, they are essentially allowing macros

Can't deny the point about the identity of the game.

The biggest problem in fighting games in this age is that ragequitters are not instant banned

Just got one of these as a birthday gift. I had no idea it had any controversy over it. I kept those buttons off cuz I kept hitting them by mistake lol.

how long do the sticks last, because of that crazy swinging to get the movement?

TMM I don't want to be devils advocate or anything, but I would really love to see you getting that CrossUp and trying out wavedash and PEWGFs and giving first hand impressions how much it's bullshit and how big of an advantage you get compared to stick

If things go at this rate soon we'll have the option to choose basic combo in tournaments

They need to develop a peripheral that reads neural signals directly.

Don't standard pads have 2 sets of directional inputs? There is a dpad and a pair of sticks. What's so different between this and that?

Wow... you really changed my opinion. You brought up fantastic points that can’t be refuted. Great job and fantastic video!

NOTHING will be done until we get an Akuma player who can wavu wavu

I like how you discuss the regular hitbox in fairness and what it means for execution moving away from arcade sticks and being easier, but when it comes to the mixbox? It's very intuitive, feels good, etc.

I'd say it should be allowed so that devs handle the situation later. Like how most games nowadays won't let you walk forward and block at the same time. Maybe even add a setting where you can't have multiple directional inputs or something.

They wanna treat fighting games like all those games that give you rewards easily to “feel good” but nothing feels better then seeing your actual practice and dedication paying off. If this goes through, fighting games will die out in the long run

Story assists has joined the chat.

Attitudes like this is why the FGC will always stay niche. Hard execution was a result of arcade machines needing people to put more money into the machine in order to perfect their gameplay. Hard execution is now a barrier to new gamers getting into a fighting game.

It's like those controller packs with the auto aim feature

The thing that gets me is that if this becomes the default 'best' controller for people to play on, what is that gonna look like for new players. If they see everyone who's good at the game using one of these, they'll feel like they have to be using one of these in order to be on a level playing field with others, and considering the price of these sticks I imagine that would put a lot of people who are interested in taking the game seriously off.

I'd like to hear what Harada's input is on this. It can't be completely positive.

Tournament Organizer here. I'm not in charge of EVO, but I can explain why banning this isn't quite as simple as you may think. It's very true that this controller gives you a significant execution advantage. But with the way this thing is programmed you can't really ban it according to its specifications unless you also ban either hitboxes, REGULAR PS4 PADS, custom button placements or *some combination of these*. The directional inputs are mapped to the buttons, and the left analog stick is mapped to the stick. So this controller has no actual inputs that do not exist on a standard PS4 pad. It has no macros, and the ability to press opposite directions is technically possible on a standard pad and is on hitboxes, which are allowed. And it used the same programming logic for those approved controllers. We also let people change configuration on buttons for comfort, and there is no rule on where buttons must be placed on an arcade stick so long as it has all legal inputs. So yeah, this thing is definitely a huge advantage, but it's made in a way that doesn't break any rules for acceptable controllers, and that's why it's not so easy to simply ban it.

The issue is that this controller doesn't actually do anything that a standard PS/Xbox isn't able to. The problem is that developers started letting their game accept directional inputs from both the Thumb Stick and the D-Pad simultaneously instead of hard restricting it to one via button config (like older games did). The worst offender I'm aware of was Persona 4 Arena. That game was programmed such that D-Pad inputs would override Thumb Stick inputs, effectively allowing you to dynamically redefine the neutral position. This combined poorly with a lenient input detection system and allowed you to do things such as holding down on the left stick then double tapping back on the pad to get an instant double quarter circle motion out of a backdash... which was particularly egregious in a game where you auto blocked on mistimed instant block attempts. In essence if their pressure string wasn't perfect you could simply instant block backdash super to punish for 0 execution cost. The only thing stopping you was that this technique was so far beyond awkward that very few people ever considered trying it. I believe even to this day it's still not widely known that this type of thing was possible.

8:16 It's been a long time since I've seen disappointment as genuine as this. As a newbie Tekken player ( having like 400 hours in the game), I can only begin to comprehend what you feel. I'm still constantly learning new things in the game, and that too with just one character. I learn to do something new, implement something differently, almost every week of playing. This breaks the game for me. This should not be allowed at all. Hard moves need to be hard to do, and that is the way the game has been designed.

It makes sense. U dont see football players using magnetic balls with magnetic shoes. Excecution is a heavy part of fightinggames... you cant take it out bcs it will be the beginning of the end.

Do you know that Tekken 7 on PC gives you the option to set multiple directional buttons for keyboard?

I fully agree with you, but can't a mixed box like yours also do the same? You can press 2 directions at the same time that you wouldn't be able to on a stick, such as right + left or up + down

This has to be banned. "No exception" -negan voice-

I can finally play with 1 hand.

I’m pretty sure on a dual shock 4 controller there are 2 sets of directional inputs the left analog stick and the directional pad so shouldn’t those be banned too since they have 2 sets?

I doubt lumberjacks felt like the gas-powered chainsaw was a spit in the face when it was introduced and gradually replaced the handsaw. "Chainsaw? PFFT! It requires less practice, less strength! A lesser man's tool..."

How is this any different that assigning directional button to shoulder buttons on a controller?

A simple software update can brick this controller if necessary

Does anyone know if there's been any followup to this video? Is the conversation around the Crossup still going on in places? Curious to see where people are at with this.

This controller may really help charge characters in Street Fighter.

The time people have wasted grinding electrics etc for 20 years they could have learned 3-4 languages instead and it's changed over a night. The game is balanced around that the best moves are behind a skillgap (taunt ju, ewgf, JFSR etc) so this just turn the entire gamebalance on it's head

Should just create a new rule. No controller is allowed to have two or more input mechanics mapped to the same directional output.

but a normal controller also has 2 sets of directional imputs right? analog and d-pad, if you get good at using both but some angle in your playstyle would it be the same?

it is worth noting that historically many, many games are completely broken if you allow for 2 opposing directions to be pressed at the same time (eg mario bros has certain clips that can only be done by inputting left and right simultaniously)

People are talking about how execution shouldn't be a barrier in fighting games but that's one of the aspects that gives it depth. If everyone could do 6 ewgfs or microdashes or play Lee then those things would innately not be impressive. Since some of you guys have such a dumb view of it lemme give you an example. In soccer, seeing someone kick a curve ball is impressive because A. It's hard and B. It's useful Obviously the stronger something is the harder it should be for you to have access to it. If everyone could just ask the ball to curve then there would be no legendary soccer players ever. Saying how using execution as a means of preventing access from stronger moves is wrong is stupid. This controller is the same as giving yourself an extra set of hands in a boxing match. Sure, Muhammad Ali would whoop your weak ass trying to flail your arms like a dying toddler but you lasted an extra round on ring because of these arms

Harada is gonna be hella pissed that this is allowed

anybody know if you can use a self customized hitbox/arcade sticks in tournaments? Like you're the one who customized it?

If you think the cross up is bad than how can you ever beleive that the hitbox or mixbox is ok or even pad

Months or years for KBD lol!?! More like an hour of actual dedicated practice to get it down and another 10 of actual dedicated practice to do it consistently in real matches. And weren't you advocating for removing KBD from the game just a few months ago? (which is something I heavily disagree with) Electric isn't hard because of the dp motion. It's hard because of the timing. Guy clearly had great rhythm. He's not gonna whiff punish with electrics, do electrics out of movement or do df2 into PEWFG any time soon at least in real games. As long as there are no macros, pressing F, B or U, D at the same time leads to neutral and all of the buttons behave the same (as in normal directional inputs), it should be fine. Also: What if a guy who doesn't have fingers in his left hand wants to use a controller with additional buttons and maybe even footswitches for directions? Is he not allowed to do that? Coming from CS, I don't see the problem here. That scene has evolved so much due to improvements in hardware that any changes to controllers that aren't adding macros, seem very inconsequential for Tekken. They have gone from 60hz to 144hz to 240hz, from ball mouses to laser mouses to optical mouses to wireless optical mouses. Sometimes Valve has been forced to change the balance (like nerfing dmg and accuracy of assault rifles and pistols) and sometimes the meta has evolved to account for gear that enables higher technical prowess. In Dust 2, there is a gap which one team is forced to cross at round start while the other team can try to snipe them. With 60hz, even the best players can't react to it consistently, so back in the day, it was relatively safe to cross it without smokes and "hype" if someone hit the shot. Now with 240hz, even an average player can hit that shot every time after a bit of practice. You could have argued that the gap was designed to be unreactable and maybe some people did, but in that case, no changes were made. Players just started to smoke the gap every time. Game doesn't require any less skill now.

I’m a kazuya main and it took my 2 months to do 3 electrics in a row

I'm not sure why there isn't a rule against duplicate inputs. In the software even the ps4 should be able to blocked i'm guessing right?

Hello the PS4 controller does this?