Are Combos Too Long? 

No, not long enough, my opponent shall not play the game

I think there's also something to be said for mechanics that allow the player getting comboed to have some agency. DI in Smash, Burst in anime fighters, Combo Breaker in KI, Reduce in Melty Blood... these aren't going to stop a combo outright, but they give an additional thing to do and a reward for doing it well.

I think what keeps Ash's combos feeling fresh in KOF is that not all characters have that long of combos. Making Variety in combo lengths is like writing sentences for paragraphs, when everything is the same length, it gets monotonous.

interesting to hear the perspective of "the combo is too long when IM performing it" since most of the time people talk about combos being too long, it's more just how it feels on the recieving end. Also how a combo can feel good or bad regardless of length if it just "feels" good or bad, or looks a certain way. it's funny how we feel about these types of things.

The funny thing about that KOF 13 Ash clip is that he very much could've killed Claw Iori. It's not really a situation where the opponent happened to be left with a pixel because that was the limit of the combo. After the heavy fireball, all he had to do was juggle with one more hit with basically any close or light normal or a flashkick. Instead he played with his food and paid the price.

Obligatory +r propaganda: short, uniform super animations and shorter combos than blazblue, plenty of high execution to keep things interesting

Learning how to do ridiculously long sick ass combos so I can be a “cool” gamer is the reason I even picked this cursed genre up in the first place!

I feel like a good example of a game with long combos that somehow still feel interesting would be YOMI Hustle. Combos in that game go absolutely wild, and it’s actually kind of an easy system to get used to, but it still somehow manages to look cool and stay interesting no matter how long things go on for.

I'll be honest I prefer shorter combos. As much as I love Marvel Iron Man infinites, and Zero lighning loops, go on too long same reason why DBZF is a slog at times. I remember Tekken fans griping how T7 gave everyone wall carry options so the combos were too long

I’ve been playing Fighterz since the game released 5 years ago and I’ve never once took notice to how long the super animations are. Because of the game’s knockdown mechanics from a level 3, it gives me time to assess things; have they been respecting me all game, will the meaty hit, should I back dash expecting the spark and punish.

So basically, Ash is the "will the Cubs finally win the World Series" meme but fighting game.

I feel like combos as they are now are depriving us of some form of unknown deeper more interactive game play where combos are way cooler because you have to read your opponents mid combo defensive options and prevent or counter them.

For me what I hate is long supers because it gets old very fast

It honestly depends on the game and the situation (for example counter hit combos tend to be longer because you can land extra stuff due to hitstun being increased). I think that games like Ultimax and SF6 strike a nice balance because most of the big long combos require resource to be spent which are not always available or can be risky to spend all at once (like burnout in sf6).

Interesting how you say that being in a combo allows you to think. I actually appreciate the downtime precisely because I can stop thinking and relax for a bit (before getting ready for the mix).

If the timer is a win condition, combo length is going to be an important part of the gameplay. If there were any good way to remove the timer without enabling horrible gameplay, I think that would mesh well with the idea of shortening combos in general.

Definitely I think combos should have more defined and clear ends... one of the things I absolutely hated about Skullgirls (and what ultimately led me to quit) was the fact that it was impossible to know when the combo ended and you had control of your character again without someone explaining it to you, due to the fact that a lot of characters don't end combos, they reset them... it made learning the game infuriating as I would be sitting there waiting for the hard knockdown or any sign that I could do anything... just to find out I could've been blocking the entire time because the combo extender was actually a reset design to put them in position to mix/cross me up after a forced restand hit.

If there had to be a determining factor, I'd have to think of 3 questions: The game in question, What is considered long according to that game, and the weighing of pros and cons of long combos in that game in particular.

It's really funny that you showed Nu but didn't talk about her much, since her CF iteration literally has a a progress bar filling on screen to emphasize how long her combo is. Her Gravity Seed is a move that she uses in her routes as a bit of a makeshift RC but has a 5 second cooldown displayed on screen, and most of her corner carry routes use 1 of them a second or two in to cancel from her launcher and another in the last second to get a knockdown after getting some extra damage in the corner, so you see that bar fill every time she does this

Ash honestly has been the redepmtion arc of KOF15 to me. I love that he came back from the dead at all, but not only at that, but he's a MENACE now. Never played 15, but i love watching Ash.

it's not like i necessarily have a problem with long combos I just wish there was a game/series that preserved SHORT combos being the whole crux of the thing, I really miss the feel of Tekken 3/Tag 1, Soul Calibur 1/2 style combos in particular.

I can relate to using the time I'm put in a combo to think and like analyze the situation, but since Byakuya's routes are usually so easy and like, universally same-ish, I end up thinking a lot more when performing them. I'm torn on whether or not this is a good design thing, but hey it lets me think about what my opponent will do next so I'm not complaining!

Can't believe you didn't go down "combo expression" route. I do think combos can have interesting decisions, wall carry, side switch, oki, damage, and situation combos are hype too.

I absolutely feel like they are, in most fighting games since 2012. I prefer 5 hits or less, with high damage and oki/position advantage as the rewards. To me, for a fighting game to be good, the vast majority of seconds per round being player interaction rather than one player having interactivity taken away. If there MUST be any focus on combos longer than 5 hits, I can tolerate it as long as 10 or more hits is very difficult and highly circumstantial. When double digit combos are rare, THEN they're hype when they do happen. If all of them are in the double digits, my brain checks out and I feel like I'm not getting my money/time's worth with the game. And feeling like my money and/or time is being wasted is one of my biggest turn-offs. Its the dance, the back and forth pendulum of momentum, the mindgames, that brought ME here in the first place, back in 2002 with SoulCalibur 2. But I don't get fulfillment for those things in most modern fighting games, for enough years that I can't play any new release for more than a few weeks before the frustration supplants any feeling of satisfaction. Nowadays, the fulfilling gameplay elements that I used to love in fighting games are granted to me by other genres. PvP games such as Naraka Bladepoint, Pokemon Unite, and Windjammers 2. Or in PvE games such as Monster Hunter Rise. But I know that I'm the minority among fighting game players, so I'm hoping that SamSho's rollback retrofit is good and that VF5US (or a VF6 that does not follow the trends of modern fighting game design) releases on PC. Until then, I play other PvP or PvE games that actually offer what I want. What most fighting games no longer offer me.

I’ve come to the Realization that Old Guilty Gear already had all of modern fighting games woes solved from a competitive and casual perspective and we were just too stupid to understand. In the context of this video, Air techs.

Some combos in fighting games last longer than the average Guilty Gear Strive round

I don't mind how long the combos are, but I do not like how they take near half of the opponent's health or more in some cases. Keep in mind I've labbed and implemented one-meter/one-kameo combos in MK1 for Raiden and General Shao that do between ~440 and ~490 damage. But it's basically me playing fixed reaction solitaire while my opponent contemplates just quitting the game in the time it takes to complete just one of them. Then I have several combos for both characters that have different mix-up starters. I don't like this, I don't want the game to be *this.* A simple combo damage cap ala MK4 would fix the problem. Then people would just cap their own combos to end earlier because there would be no point in continuing other than the disrepect factor.

I have issues with games where whiffing one jab leads to a punish that costs the player anywhere between 50% - a full health bar. 3D fighters, notably Tekken 7 and Dead Or Alive 6, are REALLY bad about that. While on the topic of Tekken 7, I legitimately don't understand the rules of combos in that game. I know what one is supposed to look like, but it's the only game I've ever played where you can see a character hit the ground, hear the audio cue for a character hitting the ground (which usually is the end of a combo), then hit the character on the ground with a mid to pop said character back into the air...FOUR TIMES in one juggle combo, THEN trigger the bound state, which is the game's actual "once per combo" OTG state. After that, if you do a combo ender that sends the opponent into a wall, you can hit them with a full wall combo (assuming this isn't a breakable wall, which is its own can of worms). Then you can hit them with a guaranteed low for a little extra damage. However, depending on the angle at which you hit your opponent against a wall, you can trigger a SECOND wall splat to do ANOTHER wall combo without ever dropping said original combo. Tekken doesn't explain any of this to you nor does it even display your combo counter during gameplay. If this happens to you, say goodbye to 2/3 or more of your health bar all because you whiffed a jab and got counter hit for it. This is on top of the game doing nothing to indicate when a combo ends or to provide practically any other information to either player. Dead Or Alive 6 is an easier game to play and understand, but it, like DOA5LR, has the issue of a minor mistake costing you an entire health bar and a guest appearance in someone's combo video with you having pressed one button be your only mistake. It's more stage dependent in those games and the rules regarding juggles and wall splats are much more strict (also very clearly communicated), but still. KOF has this as well where one unsafe option getting punished can very easily mean the near instant death of your character (depending on who you got punished by). I don't begrudge this quite as much because if someone's gonna dump all of their meter in 10 seconds, they should get all of their meter's worth of damage. I also don't have an issue with something like a single hit or grab doing big damage or a short combo doing bigger damage. One example of the former is Samurai Shodown 2018. It has very few and very short combos (on most of the cast), but the damage for landing said hits is massive (the amount of damage done with Jin's BnB in the clips shown here can be done by a single ➡️ Heavy Slash from Iroha). However, the hits landing in SamSho 2018 is predicated on you taking advantage of your opponent making a move and the game going out of its way to give you a massive punish window. Furthermore, both you and your opponent can do the same things to each other with a single button press because that's how the game is designed. It still rewards your ability to recognize an opportunity and execute the command inputs (there's basically no leniency if you mess up an input), but it doesn't require you to execute nearly as many moves to get that reward. An example of the latter is Dead Or Alive 2 Ultimate. Combos in that game are short compared to the subsequent iterations of the game (DOA5 and 6) and the execution required isn't nearly as strict or difficult as Dead Or Alive 4 (the fighting game that came after Dead Or Alive Ultimate's release). That being said, the damage from said combos is still relatively high, but you get the same reward from executing throws and holds (especially counter holds/throws and Hi-Counter throws, which you get from using a throw against a hold). Throws and holds typically don't require the same execution as combos, but the damage you get from using them effectively is the same or greater than combo damage (depending on the character, obviously). I understand games wanting to reward high execution, but not everyone is at that level or even WANTS to be at that level. Also, I don't care what anyone says, losing an entire match because you did one thing at the start of said match feels awful

BBCF perfect balance. Light hit and you eat a quick combo into into a setup. Heavy hit/counter, and you hold it for a while, giving you ample time to think about why you got fatal hit by the slowest move in the game in the first place. And burst means half of all fatal counters are lost anyway. Arcsys made it nice i think. Realistically most of your hits will be from ligths, which are usually not worth meter dumping on. Or from a stray air-to-air or special during a scuffle, which are hard to confirm into anything super long. Think about it, how many how many times do you actually land the 6C into the flashy practice tool corner combo in an actual match? But then sometimes a big hit happens and the opponent is out of burst, and the combo is not annoying for being too long, because very few combos up until that point were super long. Combos can be long and hype, just as long as they're well spaced out.

Good stuff, man! Regarding spending the time you're being combo'd to mentally refresh and think about what happens next, I completely agree. I think it's nice to have a second (or eight) to take a breath and prepare yourself. As for doing the combos yourself, I personally worry so much about my resource management (EG: "Should I go for the extension that puts them in the corner, or save the meter for another mix?") that I honestly relish the rare opportunity to "just" do a combo, knowing I'm good on both resources and positioning, because that's sadly a rare scenario for me.

KOF casual here. I think the reason why Ash's combo is so fun to watch (and maybe to pull off too? I could never do that) is because of a few reasons: 1. Not counting XIII, most of KOF's combos are at an agreeable length and without too much looping moves. The longer ones also require a lot of gauges so they aren't that common so they don't get stale too fast. 2. Unlike TOD combos of other characters, Ash's infamous combo has too many things going on in it that you know there is a very big risk of the player dropping it (unlike say the Ryo's combo you talked about in the video, because Ryo has Anywhere Juggle move so it's harder for him to drop) 3. Ash is the only one in KOF who has a combo THAT long so being able to see the combo plays out in an actual match is a rarity and a delight. The combo also pretty much requires the player to use up all of the available resource so it's pretty much a DO OR DIE situation so there's a lot of hype going into it. Just my 2 cents.

I think Pokken has some really interesting ideas and mechanics around combo length, encouraging combo variety, giving the player a rest to think, and how those intersect with neutral; all of which ties into both what you say in this video, plus what was said in "FGC vs Smash: Landing a Hit" and "Thoughts on Combo Expression". I did already leave a comment about this on the former, but it was a while after the video came out so I'm not sure how many people (or if you) saw it: Basically, while I think people overstate how different Pokken is from other traditional fighters (characters still have unique movelists and inputs, there's a height system, cancels, just-frames, etc), it DOES have two signficant differences which play into the concepts I mentioned at the start of my comment, which is the Phase Shift mechanic and that it's attack height system is used for moves to bypass and punish each other rather then vs blocks. Firstly, as I alluded to before, I think Pokken is best viewed as a traditional 2d fighter, where the phase shift system is a mechanic on top of that 2d base: There, it effectively acts as an anti-infinite system for the 2d phase (since 2d>3d shifts occur when the hidden PSP guage is filled) that also forces a return to neutral on shift, with the 3d phase acting as a second buffer layer of neutral on top of the neutral that exists in the 2d phase (since 3d>2d shifts happen on any single heavy or most special hits). This alone means there's many more breaks back to neutral (the moment a shift happens also giving players a moment to breath and think) and time spent in neutral per round. But at a high level of play, the Phase shift mechanic also acts as a tool to discourage flowcharting and add an additional skillgap with resource management, risk vs reward, and mid-round adaptation with combo composition and move choices: Since different moves on hit add different amounts of PSP to the PSP guage, you're ideally wanting to change up your move choices and combo composition up based on the current PSP. Even If all you care about is optimized damage, you'll want to change your combo composition so based on what the PSP guage is at when your starter/converter hit lands, you're ensuring the guage is filled/the shift happens right on your high damage ender, instead of the shift interrupting the combo. (This also factors into what non-combo starters you may want to throw out in neutral at any given time) But even more important then that is forgoing damage or safer moves in exchange for shifting faster or slower: Maybe you intentionally go with a combo or use moves that add less PSP on hit, that way you're keeping the enemy player in the current 2d phase longer to keep them under pressure, or to use it as a combo reset so if you can win a second interaction, you'll get more damage then if you did an optimal, 1-hit-to-shift combo off your first interaction. Or on the flip side, maybe you'd rather go with a combo or moves that add MORE PSP, to cause a shift faster: Maybe you really want the extra meter causing a shift gives you, or maybe you're on the defensive and manage to land a reversal and want to cause a shift right away to get out of the corner/pressure easier. Some moves and tech also reduces or resets the PSP guage, which further adds resource management aspects. As a result of that, Pokken is a game that tends to have shorter combos (tho not always quick combos: The animations for hits in Pokken are not nearly as rapid as in say Blazblue, so longer combos, even if they're only 18-21 hits, the latter being a hard cap, still give you a decent breather), but there's a huge mental stack in deciding what combo routes to use and modifying your BNB's and typical move choices on the fly in response to the PSP meter, at least in high and top level play, plus much more time spent in neutral, which is I think what a lot of people really want when they say they want shorter combos. Also, speaking of going for a combo which tries to shift fast off of reversals, that's where the height states stuff come in: Since height states in pokken don't exist to bypass and punish blocks of a specific heights, but rather to allow moves to bypass and punish each other based on height state; heights are generally more a tool for a defensive player to get a reversal rather then a tool for an offensive player to open up a turtling enemy: this means that even within a given 2d phase, even without shifts, there's more time spent where both players can act and more breaks back to neutral from players landing height based reversals (of course, there's also actual counters, armored moves,, focus attacks, etc for reversals that way too). Though this isn't to say there's not offensive height based mixups at all: If you're doing a meaty or a blockstring, and the other player expects that meaty or a move in the blockstring to hit on X height, they may use a move of Y height instead of blocking it to i-frame through and reversal/punish you, but then you can use a move/change the combo that hits on Z height instead to mix them up, etc. Height enabling more reversals is another thing that contributes to Pokken having more time spent in neutral and I think allows for much more adaptive use of your character's different tools. The flip side is that blocking is also proportionally more powerful (since you can't get around it with heights), though I don't believe as much so as say it is in Smash like you talk about in your video on that: Ydefinitely

I actually have the complete opposite problem with new fighters, complicated long combos are there so you can show how much character knowledge and execution skill you have. If your character's combos no longer excite you then maybe you should look for a new main or take a break from them. That said I do hate the huge super animations in newer titles😂

7:31 that's amazing bro, did my day for sure 10:49 that's insane

Those were the golden days, blazeblue put anime games on the map back in 2008. I still remember the excitement of playing BBCS and learning Valk and Tsubaki loops, shit was so cash and rewarding.

Strive player here, so my view might be skewed and yet, I think what makes longer combos tolerable at all is The Flashiness. I am a Ky main and peak hits on counterpoke conversion, then slows down as the combo goes. HOWEVER it gets flipped on its head if you are in dragon install. It increases amount of hits a bit artificially via more hits per attack, but also way more feeling of power, of danger that you pose to opponent and not getting True Comboed DI into Lose in 5 seconds alone makes people lose their shit as it happens. This state makes you change the routing too - removing staleness. And you can do overdrive on wall break if you have meter... The circumstance is rare. But that flashiness makes it all worth it.

Ash was literally erased from existence after being the most stylish final boss and brought back, as cool as they are I am still beyond betrayed

It's not about how long it's about the message

All combos should last as long a 100-to-0 Web Ball -> Reality Stone loop.

One solution that I was thinking about when it comes to the animated suppers is to have two versions, one that is usual and much shorter while other is either a round ender or has a random chance of appearing or has some specific requirement to appear, all of those should deal the same damage tho, and there should be a setting for them something like: "always" | "random" | "round-end-only" etc. On the topic of long combos. It is not as much as the length as it is the repetition, I like combos to look cool and for me repeating one set of moves several times in a combos is anything but, so much so that I avoid having such combos even at the cost of the damage ( granted I am a casual...), so yeah 6:56 is irritating to me to even watch granted I agree that not all loops are equal example from my side of the "pond" ( 3d ) would be the how much ewgf you can stick in one combo.

Another nuanced Bambo vid~! (Also, a fellow Juri enjoyer)

Laughs in Hakumen!

Combos are getting longer in non anime games and easier and thats the problem for me. Everyone and their mom are now doing 15 hit combos so they not special anymore just annoying. The biggest cuplrit of this for now is mk1.

I’m glad the fighting game genre is diverse enough to have both 20 second combos and 2 second combos. Definitely changes the feel between games.

Thank you for this video, I was starving!

Skullgirls plug: Combos are generally short as you are always watching for reset points.

Combos provide me the necessary downtime in a match - if they drop it heck yeah we take those

I knew Exactly what was coming when the KOF 13 clip started, classic I'll drop a different comment or reply here on my opinion once I have a physical keyboard to type on

Personally, Style, function, and damage are all that matter. That just happens to involve length sometimes, and I'm totally fine with that.

ideal combo length can vary per game. blazblue combos are really similar to chaos code in length, but cc is a lot more jank, because it doesnt have bursts, and has dizzies. which means if you play a good player with resources, and a good confirm, you can legit get TOD, melty would be in between those 2 since you can't get dizzied, but theres also no bursts. arcana heart does the best job keeping a player invested, since theres so much meta on teching and not eating tech resets, as well as access to arcana bursts, which are way harder to bait than normal asw bursts. In every other game i played, theres few reasons to not hold button, or mash to tech, except occasionally throw off oki timing against high level players.

I got flashbacks to watching urbanists talk about the Agency vs. Duration in home-to-work commute. IE tolerance is a mix of length and agency. I find it interesting in newer games the longer combos that give pauses are being replaced by longer supers / screen pauses to still let players re-center their thoughts. Not sure if it's intentional, but it might be. It hurts seeing that Amane loop looool, been playing the character since inception and only learned the ideal corner carry combos after rollback dropped. My man, I know Amane's your sub character. I get that comes with setting limits on commitment. But 6C is such a dynamic high-agency fork mid combo for what to do next that I feel you would fix the issue you're describing there to learn how to squeeze more out of that. Either going into 6A jB jB j2C j6D j236A j6C j236C or 214A jB for backwards corner carry or 236A jC for the sideswap or drill Lvl2 2D ginga 6C loops to go to level 3 mid combo. More dynamic BnBs and better damage/corner carry. Sorry if this was too backseaty, just trying to make you enjoy the character more

I think AC+ and XRD got the perfect solution. They both got GUTS and combo prostration into play. Would you end your combo early for Burst Bait or Reset or continue the combo but got diminishing return with worse situation since your opponent generated more meter? It's better to combo with a higher risk gauge since it nets you both positive meter and damage.

Even though i def hate games with too long combos still, this video atleast gave me an understanding to why people like them. Thank you also for looking at the other side's perspective with Persona at the start, thats exactly how i feel in long combos. If youre doing them they feel like entering in a phone number into a singleplayer game, and on the recieving end you just dont get to play and have to wait until youre allowed to play. Theres a reason shooters like OW and TF2 now are avoiding using stun mechanics, slowly taking them out of the games, because people play to play, waiting is never fun.

Yuzu in undernight has been one of the most fun characters I’ve ever learned since most of the shit I do is just me freestyling and mashing together parts of combos like I’m fucking Frankenstein. Even though I’m still repeating the same motions, I just like watching my girl zipzap around the screen and swing her big sword

what podcast or show is that first shang tsung clip from?

i dont think BnBs are corner combos also, those are usually small combos when you dont have something that your opponent can wallbounde off (excpet if some moves force wallbounce even when not in corner) but i might be wrong

Sf6 maximum combo length, take it or leave it. If you want to do the cool long combo, you have to empty your bars. Long combos have the downsides that you have to wait while you’re doing it, or when the opponents gets hit… that new players have to learn 10 hours of muscle memory before being able to play with someone else that already know how to play the game… do you think my friends want to learn 50 hits of bread and butter before being able to do more than 2 hp of damage to me? Nah. And also if you’re worse than your opponent and you want to play with him, every time you get hit you have to wait for that combo to end… the opponent has a pressure character, or an oki mixup character? Oh, yeah! I surely love to wait 20 seconds after he made a 20/80 (20 for me) mixup I can’t do anything about except for guessing! Yaaay. Killer instinct does long combos well: they’re easy to learn… and for easy I mean thet you can pick it up and pick up ANY character and start playing him without being unable to do damage but they can also be hard to master (optional), and you are playing the game while you’re getting combo’ d or you’re combining, you have to think! You’re actually playing a 2 players game, and the way those reads work make them very fun and and anti-autopilot

I'll be honest. I am a bit of a combophobic player. If I see a combo going over 20 hits without being a multihit special attack, I'm probably not going to play the game. I really hate combos in general because to me it doesn't matter who's doing the combo, the fun dies when it happens. If I'm doing it, I'm stuck on a predictable, set loop of actions that are boring to execute and my opponent can't play the game anymore. I love strings. I love the idea that my attacks can keep going for as long as I can correctly predict my enemy. It's the lack of guarantee that makes these moments special. Winning because you hit a combo feels boring to me. Winning because I managed to pressure my opponent into making several mistakes in a row is something else entirely. I feel I managed to do something cool and my opponent can learn from this experience. With combos, all I get is "you should lab your character" and "don't get hit".

4:40 - My point exactly. Combos that are *too* long turn a two player fighting game into a single rhythm action game. Glad they implemented that limit of same moves in BlazBlue.

I’m a short, sweet, and to the point player. I like having interesting combos that can be confirmed into different things or where it’s a bunch of 50/50s.

when it came to blazblue, i was immediately gravitated towards three characters because of a variety of reasons. susano'o is extremely forgiving, has a lot of health, deals extremely high damage, and doesn't need to execute a million moves that i need to painstakingly memorize all the data for in order to deliver a killing blow, or bite my teeth praying that i've hit someone enough to win. jubei is fast, a cat, and comes pre-packaged with fairly short combos and strings. as a zoner player at heart, nu-13 is an absolute dream and using only one button to execute some of the most satisfying games of ping pong with the enemy's flailing body is a divine experience i've also considered looking into nine because she's also a fun zoner that provides something other than absurd mechanical skill (and sleeper agent-level consistency) to keep my attention on, her spells.

5:30 Stylish combos actually provide a big benefit cause I can't plan my next move if I'm hyping the fuck out over how cool my opponent is.

DNF Duel and under night are the only games where it feels like absolute shit to get hit by a combo that I've played, those games NEED burst

Wow very cool thoughts

X-Rays in Mortal Kombat are the best iteration of a super, short, cool, to the point

Yes

Want more player interactions? Play Melty Blood Type Lumina. But beware: You might not like the interactions.

I don't mind long combos, just long uninteractive combos After playing Melee, I see in other fighting games there's no DI or SDI, there's no tech-chases, and there's very few rewarding 50/50 resets. It's either the same loops, or you just mowing down the move list. Burst is the only mechanic I've seen that achieved a similar effect, and I think over 50/50 mechanics make it to FGC games

I think a really good benchmark for any fighting game interaction, but especially combos, is the question: If I skip forward 5-10 seconds, would I miss anything? In games like melee where no hit can be taken for granted or MvC2 where a lot of harder combos have much tighter links and are likely to drop, combos are a lot more fun to watch. Marvel 3, for all it's strengths, can be a complete drag when you're watching The Zero Show for the 9th time that night. It is absolutely a game where you can skip 5, 10, even 15 seconds ahead and not miss anything.

Burst in Guilty Gear helps. opponent has no burst = time to shine with your combo, kill them. Has burst? Adjust your routes or consider baiting the burst (stopping combo early), or get bursted out.

In most games? Yeah

Yes people do not have 3 hours a day to put aside practicing a fucking game. If game developers wanna put no life combos in their games thats fine but they need a solid combo breaker or atleast mitigation system so the people that actually have lives and responsibilities can enjoy the game as well.

Long combos were a mistake and they are ruining the genre. The way i see it, from my experience as an old schooler from the early 90s, the root of evil seems to be Marvel/Xmen COTA (1994), Killer Instinct (1994) and KOF 94 (coincidence or not?). Other fgs were trying to deal with broken stuff, while Marvel flaunts its broken gameplay like its a selling point. And KOF opened up combo possibilities and juggle possibilities more than any other SNK game up that point. And KI doesnt even need any comments... its almost a satire. Broken combos managed to influence even SF at the time, which pushed for the creation of custom combos in SFA2 and later SF3's "extended juggle" (during stun) mechanic. Another late 90s Capcom fg, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure went really hard with combos. At that time even Samurai Shodown (4, 1996) wanted combos. It was really a crazy widespread influence, maybe a kind of minor revolution in the genre, that some people have little idea. And jumping to the late 00s with SF4's revival of 2d fgs, it happened to have a heavier combo direction than older games. Naturally, as the gameplay designer was a former SNK dev (the guy who produced KOF 14 and 15). So even though not overly long or broken combos, modern SF games seem to be set on that direction of being more into combos, compared to the 90s classics. And that encourages the rest of the genre to go the same way or stay there.

5:55 THIS. It's not about length its about the number of meaningful decisions you get to make. When combos are long and easy they are boring. What's interesting about combos is the combination of executional difficulty situational awareness and expressive decision making.

6:16 As a Noel main I feel this statement hard. Especially in CF Hated it in CT, CS, CSEX, liked it in CP loved it in CPEX and despise it in CF. Drive hop wall kick shot bounce Drive hop wall kick shot bounce revolver blast Ugh used to be able to do some real technical non-drive chain stuff as my bnb in CPEX but they really want to force you to use drive whenever possible in cf as Noel and all the really cool interesting flashy stuff is pretty much impossible to do now after the gutting she got in CF

I've been of the opinion for a while that if combo length is an important factor to someone, then there is a game out there that'll fit their tastes or at least come close. To me, combo length by itself is an arbitrary statistic - my 10-second long combo in Pokken is significantly easier for me to perform consistently than my 10-second long combo in Them's Fightin' Herds, but even saying that doesn't do justice to the complexity of either game. Pokken has me making decisions about whether to cause a Phase Shift or to end a combo early for a reset, and the accumulated Phase Shift Points will affect the next combo I start. Them's Fightin' Herds has a juggle decay system that will shift my combo priority depending on the current situation when I reach that limit. How the game incorporates its average combo length in with its other mechanics is more important than what length the combos are. But if you were to ask me, I prefer shorter combos. I'm not good at memorizing long combos, so I end up dropping them all the time and resorting to more basic options.

I think long combos are hype when they actually require execution like in Street Fighter games where the norm is short combos, but you can go long if you have the skill. Long combos in something like Tekken or anime fighters are just a lot of chained sequences which make it feel way more boring to watch/play imo. Combos in those games feel like filler to the actual hype parts of the game like the neutral or whatever it may be.

certainly, answers were, indeed, questioned in this video

5:06 this is why I don't really enjoy melee you don't get any time to think until I die.

It depends, is it long...but difficult? If yes I'll allow it and even cheer you on!

It definitely sucks to be on the receiving end of NANAYA, but also sometimes you just gotta take your opponent to the movie theatre

I personally find that downtime in games is...fine? For one, like you said, having some time to think about the next sequence is great. I also just dunt think that I need to fill every secund of my time hitting buttons. It's like playing a turn based game. When you lose your turn, (amd in this case, I dint mean fighting game turns in the offense defense way, but more literally), sometimes I just enjoy watching things unfold. In league even I walk back to lane, I just watch other lanes fight, (which of course serves a practical purpose in league but serial just cuz is nice to see how everyone's doing and start they're up to). It's not like of I get comboed for 10 seconds, I've lost tons of time. Ten secund out of my day is nothing, and I'll get to play again very soon anyways.

long combo is fun if single player game like dmc

execution does indeed matter a lot in combo reception. If its too easy it can get boring. If you can missinput it and lose it gets better. If both and the oponent can burst DAMN. You want to see the decition making, and the punish goes throught if a burst is baited. As for cutscene supers.... they can be cool if they are rare, but i absolutely hate games where you can count more time in cutscene then the neutral. Funnily enought i feel Dragon Ball fighterz does it good, and most supers aren´t super long, but the string of 3 diferent supers in a row is what makes it feel a bit long. In Blazblue super are great! they are fast, and the only long cutscenes one happen when you win the game, so no point in dennying a cool cutscene when the game is over allready. But like, Mortal Kombat X for me had insane long animations only to showcase some stabing or 3. and it happened, every single fight, twice at minimum. Its been awhile so maybe my opnion changed on it, but at least on the new mortal kombat you know the enemy is pressing buttons to combo you, so they can mess up and you do have a breaker.

I think most strive combos are the best. Tho some fuckers go wild and bump those hit nrs unfortunately

i think mkx liu kang has a good balance of bith cuz his combos are cool asf and flashy(specifically in ninjakillas clips), but you can visually see how hard the ckmbo is to preform when watching his fireball and run cancels

For me, the length of a combo depends on 4 things: game speed, hit impact, combo variety, and difficulty. If the game is fast, then longer combos feel faster. If the hits feel good, then the combo feels better. If the game is less restrictive, that’ll let you experiment with different combo routes. If the combo itself is difficult, it’ll make it more satisfying when you hit it properly. Skullgirls combos are always great for me to watch because they’re fast, difficult, and have lots of options.

imo loops should still be available, but require a meter install if you want them to last longer than say, 2 reps. Sonething like V-ism from Street Fighter Alpha, but with trade-offs for using said meter in that way, like giving the opponent a burst so you can waste all that meter, and for that meter to have significant alternative uses, for nothing unless you choose a burst safe route. I also think combos are only entertaining when there are limits you can sort of work around. UMvC3 Dante combos are cool because not every one is the same; sometimes you do Clay Pidgeon loops, sometimes you do Twister > Million Carats, or maybe you like the standard Beehive loops. However, because Dante has the highest damage scaling, there's a tradeoff between draining your stamina doing high hitcount, high execution combos for just a sliver more of your opponent's health that still won't kill and saving your strength so you can still preform the rest of the set and going for a reset. But then there's the TAC, a universal mechanic that lets most characters do a really simple infinite that results from a 4 way mixup you oppnent can do at any time while you're being comboed. TAC combos, while occasionally cool looking, are completely boring since they get rid of the hitstun scaling mechanic which makes creating and watching UMvC3 combos (except Vergil sword ring loops, those are basically TACs but meter limited) fun.

6:47 is strive a guilty gear?

For me, watching the same long combo twice is enough for me to not want to play anymore, I play for the versus part, if the game turns into a single player rhythm game at every interaction...

0:04 If JP was at full power

I like how street fighter 6 works with combos, you need to use alot of resources to do a big combo, but let you without defensive options, and very vulnerable in the corner. So, in my opinion, big combos should cost alot, because the "back and forth" is what makes the game fun to play and to watch.

I think when i think of combo length being too long i always think of F Piel in MBAACC or HNK where in some situations their wincon is to combo you for 30+ seconds just to stall time and get a time out. I love long combos and i love watching HnK and FPCiel other combos are hype and its a pretty unique wincon but im glad thats not a thing as much anymore and long combos are done to for the damage rather than just to stall for time

Shorten combos. Shorter combos look cooler than long ones.

6:50 can we talk about this conversion. Whatagod.

For me, being in a long combo is fine as long as they get the W or advantage. But when an opponent can’t close rounds with it and I’m at life-lead after; it feels like I’m in an unskippable cutscene for no reason.

Yes they are.

I find that long combos gets frustrating when the same move gets repeated over and over again. Getting juggled by half the move list is fine though, oddly enough...

Counter hit doing more stun so you can combo is 'tarded just boost the damage and don't waste time.

0:27 Mot: Dragon Eye