Expression in Fighting Games & Guilty Gear: Strive 

95% of the time when people talk about player expression they are only referring to combo length and combo route variety, i always found it to be a kind of weird and abstract critique

12:00 The problem with Skullgirls isn't the player's offensive options, it's the defensive options. If the opponent had more time to react when out of hitstun, then it wouldn't be the reset heaven that Skullgirls is notorious for

I think this was pretty dope as an Analysis. I think someone like Leon Massey said something about Xrd, with like "I wanna do that" and Xrd is like "Cool, you can do that!" And Strive is a little bit more restrictive in just letting you do what you want. Still a good game and I still play it from time to time, but things definitely feel limting in their functions.

This video was really good and very fair to both perspectives, I disagree on more open games being less friendly for new players, the actually need to know quite a bit about fighting games to actually understand the implications of such an open system when it comes to nightmarish offense while new players will see any mix-up they get hit by as oppressive even something like Strive Anji's horrible high-low ""mix"" off Fuujin, this is something that mainly appeals to intermediate/high level players that just have different tastes when it comes to what they value in fighting games

Great video. As a beginner and someone that doesn't want to dedicate their lives and sacrifice their firstborn to completely master a character and becoming a god of self expression (it's a joke), I do prefer the way strive turned out, but I understand why some people don't. What pisses me off is when people try to convince me that my opinion is objectively wrong. Still even though we disagree, I liked how you were fair and acknowledged that the issue is subjective.

What you said about GGST and how player expression can get out of hand like in Tag Team Fighters, made me a fan. You've earned my subscription.👍🏿

This was really well worded, mate. Good stuff.

Dope ass content as always, the more videos you post the more insight I get into Fighting Games! :D

Great content as always!!!

The meaning of 'player expression' is NOT limited to just offensive pressure and combo variety, as most in the FGC seem to think. The true meaning of 'player expression' is to have a variety of VALID and REWARDING playstyles and answers to any given situation you may find yourself in. This means that any game in which the only real answer to a situation is "Don't be in that situation in the first place" or that bottlenecks players into a set of playstyles by making any certain playstyles invalid, rewarding, impossible, or punishing players for trying to use said playstyles. This means that, categorically, Strive and the vast majority of FGs over the last decade actually limit player expression. Particularly because they, by design, cater to those who want to play/watch offensive play by preventing or punishing defensive play. Even if the majority of people find defensive play boring and "lame", it's still an objectively bad thing to punish or alienate defensive players at the games foundatiinal design level. Not even real-life combat sports prevent people like Ali or Mayweather from using the defensive styles that made them champion-level successful. This is why I love VF5US. Short round timers, high damage, versatile characters that only lean towards archetypes rather than being highly-specialized, and every move being programmed with binary properties (which leads to counterplay being consistent). Most people nowadays may want the single-player DMC-like action game power trip, but a two-player competitive genre is supposed to be about interaction and out playing the opponent. For that, it needs to be designed in a way that allows for versatility and room for expression while using strict limitatiins to balance the playing field and prevent one-sided lockdown. That's why Boxing does NOT punish keep out styles and even has the clinch, which allows one fighter to force a reset to neutral. Besides, "limitation breeds creativity". Meaning that you needs measure of structure. Letting players do whatever they want on offense results in an unbalanced have that gives agency to the offender at the expense of a fun experience on defense. The FGC mentality of wanting as few in-game mechanical limitations as possible goes against the foundations of fair and fun competition, as evidenced in your Skullgirls example and the forced offense meta gameplay design of most modern fighting games.

Fucking love skullgirls, it holds a special place in my heart as one of the first three games I started playing when I got into Fighting games. (The other two being GGplusR and SF3S)

I've been enjoying your videos lately after stumbling on the recent GBVS vid, you explain things really nicely for those of us without context on certain subjects. Plus it's entertaining! Also for this one, I want to thank you just for using BT2 music lol. Very nostalgic!

I like violence if i gotta get mangled on the way to being able to do dirty mixups im gonna hold that cuz I did get hit in the end they earned their turn but i also know when i get my hit, they’re gonna feel it. Sonicfox is a skullgirls player so it’s expected that someone used to dirty mixups and aggressions would not necessarily enjoy the slower more toned down style of strive.

Great video!

I've heard similar arguments about what makes Overwatch feel more stale compared to other team shooter games. Both games streamline character kits to a greater degree than average, and that makes it feel like characters are meant to be played as and not played with. Where other games' characters give you a kit of tools to use in ways that suit your habits and preferences, these games give you characters that feel designed to do something. It's not a bad thing, but it is going to be limiting and possibly grow stale because of the linearity. It's a curious comparison that popped into my mind when watching.

This does a good job explaining of everything

Great video!!!!!

Gee you sure play a lot of fighting games mr. youtuber. I enjoyed all the match footage variety!

Good video! My only major critiques would be around script structuring. I'd recommend sprinkling more Strive discussion earlier in the video.

Coming from kof97 and sfa2, i actually found strive to be much more fun than the other anime fighters. Its simple to understand with a roster small enough for me to play all the characters, perfect. Meanwhile, in blazblue i still have trouble playing mai or hibiki. Tager is the only one where i actually feel like i can play with intentionality, coming from a potemkin background. Even tho i really like characters which i can be creative with, like zato or nago, being a heart-based player, technically all characters can be used in a creative manner, you just have to think outside the box. Roman cancel does play a huge part in that in strive.

I didn't know of this mentality in the FGC of optimum combos only to be accepted as combo expression. Also, good job showing the Skullgirls example, I always wondered why some people advise that it's a nightmare to play this game competitively.

21:09 oh yes. auther's vision as an argument. turned out even with 29f startup you can use it in neutral. That's a bad example But I don't actually disagree with the take that ggst has more strict use of tools but when I actually try to come up with example and think it through, I just can't. That's a weird feeling

underrated creator report

The games that I think best highlight this "player expression" concept are KOF XV and DNF Duel. In KOF XV, any way that you use your character's moveset can be viable as long as you know how to make it work for you. If you want Yuri to be a zoner who spams her fireballs and demon flips all over the screen all match, you can. If you want to play Yuri like she's Sol and rip through your opponent's health bar with clever meter usage, you can. Two people can play the exact same character and unless you get to the absolute highest level where all you're fishing for is that one optimal combo, the two people more than likely will play the same character in completely different ways. DNF Duel is similar in that two people can play the same character in different ways, but since its move lists are generally small and command inputs are universal, the differences come from what kinds of combos you go for. If you want to play Dragon Knight in a simple style that focuses on locking her opponent in block stun with Astra while you air dash around the screen and play keep away, you can. If you want to play 4D chess with your Dragon Knight combo routes using Astra, you can. In contrast, two games that I'd say aren't that great with player expression are Street Fighter V and Tekken 7. Sure, neither game punishes you for playing entirely using pokes, but they both have very specific ways that they want you to play and offer no room for mixing it up once it's time for you to turn up the heat and make the most of your character's game plan. The "expression" ends once you get out of neutral because you have to know exactly what your character can do in that specific situation to get a response that's favorable to you. These are just examples that I could think of and I could be dead wrong, but that's my personal experience from the time I spent with those games.

Great video. Majority of people I've tried to argue this point with about "expression" seem completely oblivious to what it is and think Strive is a superior game in every way compared to Xrd and XX. I sometimes think that the majority just care about winning and nothing else. Not how to achieve that win. I.e. the journey vs the reward. Strive is the extreme left end of the spectrum with limited expression and too much hand holding where games like Skullgirls/Marvel are just way too much. I personally hate Skullgirls/Marvel for these reasons as everything just feels like a touch of death situation with constant 1 frame mixups. The game demands perfection. Xrd and XX felt more like a sensible medium where it's crazy but not too crazy which is why I loved the game so much. It just feels good to do things and see that what you can come up with can be done. Knowing how I play a character in my own way and not just a carbon copy of every other person who plays them. I honestly felt that way with Strive. I used Millia and every damn Millia played so much the same that I was at the point of "why even bother playing?"..."I'm just a carbon copy of everyone else". It will come down to who does it better which just sounds so fucking lame and boring. Sadly most newer anime fighters I felt have lost that expression with major streamlining/homogonizing the games. The old era of anime fighters is fading away. The only recent game on the market (with no release date) that imo carries the true essence of a good core anime fighter is Chaos Code Next, which I HIGHLY recommend keeping your eye on. It's good stuff.

Mmm I think people really forget about newer players who don't want to learn so many things at once and there comes paralysis to having so many choices. Heck even the name Guilty Gear Strive feels really fitting for a game designed for people who have tried fighting games before and just couldn't get it. Also considering there were many people who didn't even know the series existed until Strive, hopefully it'll get more people to try out the rest of the series as well

What was that game with the GRD stuff it looked sick

fyi sg doesnt have as much flexibility as you think dude...granted its one of my favorite games and plan on making swathes of content for it but no...blazblue & gg+R is WAY more. So yeah definitely disagree. Youre talking about resets...not actual ways to do the same thing differently in terms of playstyle outside of merely damage. and im sure many would disagree with that, but after playing bb there's been nothing similar to expression of that game or gg+R. Options is not player expression. moves letting you completely change the way you play as a whole is player expression mixable with OTHER elements to make new branches of play new & unique to virtually each new main and the room to do so.

My only issue with Strive how they completely removed the mechanical identity Guilty Gear is known for. What made Guilty Gear so charming and unique was having everything being able to be chained together through gattling combos. Everything worked as long as it could be connected. The fact that Strive removed that in favor of links which was a mechanic exclusive to a single character in the previous entries was quite jarring.

I honestly liked what Fox said just because he kept it to "I don't like this". didn't try super hard, that I saw, to create a definition of what is good to 'prove' strive didn't fit in that box. it bothers me when people do that, and not because I'm specifically a strive fan. great video, truly did all I'm looking for which is to say "this is something people like, that can be good, but it's not objectively always the best and you can like what you like"... I just don't like, and this is an internet thing, maybe a human thing, not an fgc thing, I don't like when people try to turn their opinions into facts. edit - I dislike strive because of the high damage mostly tbh, I love faust and jacko and I think it looks great and is pretty fun. but I don't like the high damage and I find the strong characters to be strong in boring ways.

So many of Strives problems would have been solved if the game was a new IP. All of my major problems with Strive have nothing to do with the game in a vacuum and are just focused on how it doesn't feel like the series that got me into fighting games.

isnt expression already made by character choice and the such Edit: I get it now you just want tools that are useful in multiple situations that have overlap with others in the same moveset.

The comparatively higher dislike ratio on this video probably comes due to some stans not liking their favourite new game being critizized, especially since it was still relatively new by the time this video was made. But you did a great job exploring the limits of Strive, even looking back as the game is approaching its fourth year too far in the future. A lot of tthe things mentioned still hold true, however contrary to what you said, there are signs of Strive's core designed being restrictive overall. When the game released many people complained about the heavy, frontloaded and easy access to húge damage to the point that Guts as a legacy mechanic is kinda less relevant in most situations and the game could be tweaked to remove it altogether. The same argument was made for R.I.S.C. Another legacy mechanic that doesn't gel well with how Strive works. While those mechanics are still in the game, they homogenized even more around the cast in the later seasons. While I personally was never a fan of character weights, Strive removing them further contributes to that and shows that many of traditional GG mechanics don't fit Strive's framework. In Strive's context because of the removal of teching altogether, a mean to make the game more streamlined and accessible, heavier characters had always a big advantage due to them benefitting the now present juggle system. I think the devs know that a lot of what makes Guilty Gear traditionally doesn't fit in their vision of the game which is why they try to add more "expression" in form of decision making in a different way which is resource management. We caught a glimpse of it with all of Strive's technical characters having a resource to balance them out in the roster, but currently, they try to expand that to system mechanics with the introduction of Wild Assault and deflect shield relying on the additional management of more options using your Burst meter. In my opinion this artificial "expression of depth" via resources in kinda lame as that's exactly what we already have in many other genres like MOBAs and RPGs. I've personally already given up on Strive but I do hope they change their course when it comes to the next GG or even BlazBlue iteration (even though Mori left). But tbh, with them even changing the producer after Strive's release and all the talk that they want to prepare the franchise now for "modern sensibilities" moving forward, I'm kinda anxious about that as well.

I disagree that freedom means brutal offense. I think that misconceptiom comes from the trend of fighting games only allowing expression on offense. The flaw with Skullgirls is that offense is SO much stronger than defense that the expression becomes about exploiting said offense as much as possible. Games like GG Xrd that have stronger defense can have high player expression without being so suffocating. (Xrd is still pretty brutal, I think games could explore having much stronger defense.) Strive took away offensive freedom, but it ALSO reduced defensive variety. I think that's what made some veterans disappointed. Hey, if any new players read this far, I want to say: complex/expressive games aren't actually that hard to get into. That complexity means that you have way more places to start, and don't have to learn things in any particular order. Give Guilty Gear Xrd or Accent Core a shot.

Yeah this is why I dislike DBFZ. Defense is so strong and offense feels so weak, the only real bite of DBFZ offense is the length it has and assist allowing you to set up mix on the designated schmixing point. I personally dislike this cause whenever I feel like they telegraph offense way too obviously in the game making "outing" a situation easier, and Blockstring length IS kinda annoying but it bares no real teeth due to lack of chip damage. You could block and reliably react on alot of things, save for some fucked up command grabs, and for those that you can't chicken blocking is still a strong option. While I play a lot of defensive oriented Fighters being UNI. I feel like the defense there is much more involved than DBFZ, forcing me to actively make decision on which defensive OS i need to do or how I should react to something. DBFZ has obvious coutner play to something and counter play to that coutnerplay which I dislike the most when blocking

Leffen is a clown. Melty Blood on launch bro... yeah it was different.

One of my friends who isn't too experienced on fighting games, with his most played proper game being Tekken 7, didn't enjoy what he tried of Strive but has been having a fun time getting into XX (ACR), freedom helps a lot when it comes to getting into a game... for some people, like me, like him, like a lot of Guilty Gear (pre-Strive) fans. This video helped point out the point that clear intentions to moves and goals on how to win is what's easier for other people, though, and that's fine, of course. Great video. Strive's lame but it's what works for people so that's okay, I hope this video can be a good way of kind of showing why Strive is lame to some without having it come off as an argument starter, haha. Whenever I bring up a problem I have with Strive, while I'm never saying it's wrong for people who like it, to like it, they always seem to take it as an argument. I do think the Skullgirls part kind of felt like a derail that wasn't really getting to the point as much as it was like, a sidenote on the way to the point, but other than that, really good watch.