Are Lagoon Catamarans Falling Apart?! - Ep 229 - Lady K Sailing 

My thought is the owners of Lagoon 450’s need to thank Parley for putting this issue forward and finally got the maker to own up. A shout out to Parley for their documentation and professional communication

Thanks for sharing. When I was in the market for a new boat, this stuff was coming out. So, I took a hard pass on Lagoon - not because I thought the boat was going to fall apart on me - I rejected the Lagoon because of how they handled it and tried to blame the owners. That was enough to take them out of consideration. I’m astonished that anyone would buy from them if they were reasonably informed about how they handled this.

How is ignoring the issue until it blew up on social media "doing the right thing"? 3 year warranty is a joke, they should have fixed all 450s - no exceptions. Instead of looking for every way out on a case by case basis. You would expect a cat to last 30 plus years, the residual value it compromised. This probably would have still been cheaper for them than the loss in value to owners and loss of confidence and sales to themselves.

There's a reason why Leopard and other manufacturers use steel cross beams connecting the two hulls. Beneteau/Lagoon opted for wood/fiberglass even for the beams, this being a less expensive construction option! Its not just the bulkheads but the beams that are cracking as well.

If you watch the Parley you tube videos, there are a shit ton of other problems as well. The keels were barley glued on as well.. The Lagoon boats have some serious quality problems and there is NO way I would even get on one of those floating turds..

Lagoon backtracked after everybody went nuts. They were blaming owners and everyone but themselves but the power of the internet prevailed.

I watched the Parlay Revival videos and when this problem happened Lagoon didn't want to know about it if I remember right. It was only because Colin was/is a Chief engineer that he and Jamie with bucketloads of sweat and tears fixed their boat.

There are 50+ foot Lagoon problems as well, the owners are just keen to hide it for fear of stigma and lost resale values. If your 60' Lagoon Catamaran is keeping you awake with squeaking and cracking on passage or in heavy mooring waves, you have a bulkhead issue. I've seen them in RU-vid videos as well. There is no serious creaking on a properly repaired catamaran.

I started watching Parlay Revival just before they found the problems. I watched their ordeal. I remember another Lagoon model having some similar probs. It's been a while so I can't remember which model and never saw anything other than a couple mentions - could have been different. I recommend all catamaran owners watching the videos of finding the probs and repairs just so you understand things to look for. Parlay is going across the Pacific now or may be across.

Having watched all the Parlay Revival videos....being a Marine Surveyor for 20+ years....having built a Cat....when I saw the sloppy tabbing of bulkheads to the hull...sloppy fiberglass work with tons of filler to fill large gaps and bad fitting bulkheads I almost threw my shoe at the screen!!!....no wonder these have been failing , shawdy workmanship and use of excess brittle fillers blew me away....expensive yachts of various makers must be looked at BEHIND the fancy facades that you fall in love with....in most it is shocking just how rough and unfinished they are where you can't see!! So when shopping around look under...behind...many places in the boat....What you can't see is really telling about the boats overall construction.....cheers ....SV Archangel laying Thom's Place AK

As I have reported on a few other Lagoon related channels, I owned a Lagoon 470 way back. It was one of the last ever made, and one year old when i bought it. It had hardly been used, 50 hours on the engine if I recall. It was my first boat, and at the start I loved it, but as time went on and we experienced different sea conditions it started to make and more importantly the wife nervous. The first worrying issues was the noise in anything but millpond conditions, it creaked and groaned horribly. It also slammed but not as I found out as badly as some. Then the cracks started appearing in the gelcoat, mostly where the superstructure joined the hulls. We had this fixed, then next bit of rough seas they all came back. We came across other owners where the salon windows were starting to pop out, and one 500 owner who had small mounds of wood shavings, after crossing the Atlantic where the wood fixtures meet the hull. When more cracks started appearing around the salon windows I called it day and sold it. I just felt at the time it was flexing was excessive. I went on to buy and older Beneteau monohull. It's 20 years old now and still going strong. I do keep a close eye on potential points of failure just in case.

Not a serious boat but a great party show off boat when new. Good renter in contained area.

Lagoon only owned up when they had no choice at all and if you have an older one they reserve the right to blame you for their factory defect .

I spent years repairing Lagoon (and other) catamarans in Tahiti and Panama. The brand name says it all: Keep her inside the lagoon, better yet, in the marina to prevent it from falling apart. Poor choice for someone planning on keeping a boat for the long run, it`s best to purchase one fairly new, then sell it to the next cruiser after following Jimmy Cornell`s route around the world.

BS Beneteau designed, sold, and collected profits on a defective design. They stonewalled the owners until they eventually had so much bad publicity that they had to deal with it. Their fix still leaves owner to do the labor or pay for the labor to be done. Every Lagoon 450 should be recalled and repaired at 100% Beneteaus expense to include $ for every day the boat is out of service. One less sailboat company could make a difference let them sink into another has been company. You either back your product or disappear and good riddance.

If there's one thing I know from watching Jim's channel its that he'd be a great dude to have brew with in the anchorage.

Awesome reflections on the situation! As always, stay safe out there!

You should have added, that Beneteau's have hull delamination problems, and huge voids in the lamination of the bulkheads, so the company is a failure.

Thank you for having dealt with the topic that affects the Lagoon 450 but probably also other "Condomarans"... I have been racing on small cats since the early 70s and I am well aware of the enormous forces that affect the structure of catamarans . I was fortunate enough to know the designers of the first Catanas personally and they were well aware of the problems they might encounter. I've done many miles cruising with those Catanas and I know very well that the feeling of safety they instill with a stiff breeze can push you to overdo the sail area. It is unacceptable that such an obvious defect comes to light only thanks to the WEB. Lagoon will lose many points in the market as a luxury brand, trust is everything! Too bad, some models were very successful...

Very fair video. I appreciate your in-site on this matter. You keep things grounded in reality.

@9:37 Or repetitive tensioning of the rigging while the bulkheads slowly failed. This is a problem that creeped up on folks. Its like putting air in a tire with a slow leak. BTW this video is very fair and square about the issue. I still want a Lagoon 52F or a Lagoon 50. Don't care!

Great topic Tim! Would love a follow up about which construction is stronger and which manufacturers are doing it the right way. Cheers!

Straight up, there's no way I would buy a Lagoon or a benateau, harsh maybe, Very maybe, but a company that is prepared to argue with it's clients rather than simply fix the problem, is not a company I want to give my hard earned $ to. Nor put my family at risk of injury or worse, if the vessel imploded.🤣🇦🇺😲

It is NOT only the 450 that has issues other models also have bulk head issues

Always current and relevant info thanx mate

I can't say enough how much I appreciate that you were not only thorough in this, especially leaving resources for people to go deeper, but you were very balanced about it, no unwarranted bashing of a company this is doing far more than most would in trying to make things right for their owners. Also making it clear, as many others have not, is that a far as we know, this issue is restricted to one model over several years. I also think it is extremely likely that future Lagoon buyers will greatly benefit as it seems certain that the company is learning some valuable engineering lessons from this that they'll be able to put to use in current and future production!

What were the differences in design specifically addressing the bulkhead issue between the 440 and the 450?

I know nothing about sailboats, I cannot sail, and I really don't intend to ever sail or buy a sailboat. yet here I am, watching a bunch of your videos. I started out with fiberglass repair and ended here somehow. Point being, you make good videos, my friend. Keep up the hard work! Interesting stuff, these sailboats.

Thanks again!

Very informative

Great video! Been a while since I’ve been able to sit down and watch some. I was wondering about this subject though, thanks for the clarity! From: Beaver Island, Lake Michigan.

I'm shocked that lagoon still have a resale value! Don't people know by now? The cabinets are screwed together with steel screws that rushed immediately. It must be hard to get them insured

Hi Tim, For aircraft we say 'Keep the dirty side down and the pointy end forward'.

A fair shake to Lagoon. Good episode and thanks again.

Thx!

As a cat owner/designer/builder with 30k miles on my handmade boat I can say you can't make a 45' cat that weighs 38000 lbs and expect a ply bulkhead to survive. This is especially true when these monsters try to pound to windward either under sail or power. The are poor excuses for boats, everything done wrong.

Sir, you are mistaken…more models than the 450 are being effected. If you did read all the comments in the 450 bulkhead group…you’d have seen that.

Spot on Video. Should not punish a company taking ownership. Not very common anymore.

I watch Parley, and Lady K... Eh? So... when you going to do a sailing trip/video again? I watched every moment of your trip down the ICW from Canada, and loved it.. and I learned a lot from your videos. I do not yet own a boat with a sail, but am working on it.. problem is, I need it to fit on the Rideau Canal... Mast height/draft are an issue, but I am hopeful!

Having a Lagoon 440, the first evidence of this design flaw shows up there on the port side of the boat as well. I'm getting ready to haul and fix that this fall/winter. My guess is when they extended the 440 to 450, they failed to take into account the extra width of the boat and so it shows up more there. I've never been inside a 440 that did not have the visible part of the port cabin door surround broken. I've always assumed it was because that was the next place in the boat to absorb that extra stress. My boat makes lots of noise even when sitting at anchor so we'll be pulling pieces out to secure them with fiberglass and stop the excess squeaking. I know they won't be helping with my repairs but luckily I'm in Mexico where the labor is cheap.

Nice video

While they are breaking I believe that youtube Parlay had bought a totaled out catamaran so that why they found more and more damage in the other bulkheads. Just my opinion but its an educated one. Love your channel and the one you made about minimums for Bahamas cruising was well made. I found myself having a lot more than the bare minimum and it made me feel a lot more secure. I was worrying about “can I or should I attempt this?” Thank you

great and timely video, but i have 3 lingering questions 1. what about 450s built after 2019 - why are they not susceptible (or are they)? 2. what is Lagoon doing as far as design changes to ensure this will never happen again - none of the other builders are affected - some like Leopard i believe insert metal beams to reinforce. 3. why other Lagoon models are not susceptible - their dealer told me its all about over-tightened rigging - BS! Until Lagoon comes clean on these 3 questions given what transpired (and i hear they are very quiet about it) they will not restore their reputation, at least not in my eyes. I was planning to get one, but now my confidence is shaken. Turned my attention toward FPs since.

Great video. I wish you would do some videos on budget older cats.

The Lagoon 380 hasn't had the bulkhead issues, or pad eye issue. Plus an integrated keel. Certified for every ocean. 😀

Colin of the Revival is the Ralph Nader of catamarans. Bravo to him. Take any flaw buy a big manufacturer and it goes like this: deny, deny, blame others, blame owner, accept some blame, admit problem. Boeing for example. The NFL on concussions example. Auto recalls etc etc

Ive seen this problem on a 52 also.

Very good report! You´re always staying objective! My first thought while whatching: is this a general construction failure of all Lagoon cats and did it just come to light because the 45 footer is one of the most selling beside the 42?

I literally grew up on a 1999 Catalina 36 Mark two I really enjoyed it my dad passed away when I was fifteen and I'm looking at buying another sailboat right now I'm on the Great Lakes our boat was Whitehall Michigan our first but was a Catalina 27 Morgan I remember the day my dad bought that Catalina 36 part two brand-new I was 7 but I was a kid I used to race those small butterfly sailing boats then when I was in my teens and twenties I moved to the Jays

The picture of the 440 you first show I noticed is my boat, except the name has changed after we bought her 2 years ago

you have another vlog on this - show bulkheads on lagoon / seawind / hh / mumby / leopard and the portafino 52 bulkheads and that boat will only flex 1" over its entire 52 foot

I remember being on a friends 450 and thinking the fit and finish was terrible for such a new and expensive boat because the sliding door did not close properly and some doors would pop open . Never chartered lightly used boat . Now in hindsight I realize the bulkhead was busted . Lucky for him he sold it not knowing about it before this all blew up .

Sailing Parlay Revival Bought a hurricane repair 450. He found the bulkheads and made it public. They skimped big time on their bulkheads to save $1500 per boat. 1000 boats means they saved $1,500,000 but made them dangerous and unsafe. They said if you sail them in calm weather and seas you wont have a problem. LMAO really storms will come and you need a boat that can handle them. Also high winds come out of nowhere and again your boat needs to give you time to adjust sails not break.

Balanced argument. Nice.

Lagoon do supply a fix but the stainless steel brace kit they offer is flawed - more extensive measures are needed to fully secure the 450's as the stresses simply transfer to other structural areas which will, in time, also fail.

Why don't the other Lagoon models have the same problem? What are the differences in the designs that prevent bulkhead fractures?

Interesting

When you watch Parlay (and others) it is not just the bulkheads, once they start digging they often find allsorts of quality control issues. My guess is that the engineers did their calculations and finite stress analysis with the assumption of good to perfect manufacturing. For a number of years Lagoon could not produce boats fast enough to meet the demand and quality was allowed to slip.

A freind had a Lagoon 450 . Great dock cottage and very comfortable . Sails like shit . I remember thinking it odd the sliding door did not fit right and such . He sold it before all this blew up and looking back it too was broke . So bad the door did not close right . Knowing the boat , the factory fixes are not really strong enough either to be honest .

Their you go I'm a Brit that wants to know what my cousin across the sea is sailing this season, And with all our great Nations outputs of the Best seakeeping vessels in the world you mentioned the F word, I must admit to love racing Beneteau yacht's in the Med But I've won regattas in the Med with Moody 31 Yachts back in the 1980's against light weight F kit, not surprised to find Profit making is making a comeback to Cause of death of those that go down to the sea again,

I wouldn't purchase any boat produced by Groupe Beneteau. This problem isn't confined to the 450 either. There is only one Lagoon worth buying today, and that is Colin's Parlay.

Those mass produced catamarans rarely have proper ring frames and compression posts, which could request 100 + layers of unidirectional glass/carbon and they are more build for marinas and floating around instead of sailing. It helps to consult an expert also when buying a new cat.

I recall reading, back in the late 60s/early 70s that flexing was a big drawback to oceangoing catamarans. Of course fiberglass construction was not as sophisticated as it is now. However material and labor costs are not what they were back then either. So all that to say, I'm not surprised.

The bulkhead only looks glassed on the edges at 3:25 .Maybe if they glasssed the whole bulkead it wouldnt have been an issue?

"...and like me, she's built for comfort" 😂

"still Safe" and "no mast problems" ? Parlay was about to cross Pacific, then the rigging suddenly went slack.

remember the word bulkhead.... I quite literally Laghed Out Loud!!!

Are you going to go sailing? Parlay documented this issue a year ago, along with bad tabbing of the remaining bulkhead issues!

Love your vids unfortunately I can't afford to support as I have low income and paying my Catalina 34 .I do have hope to sail it to Europe from pacific mexico.i would love to see episode of how to make Catalina 34 safe for crossing Atlantic or similar boat.i am sure many production boat owners would like that

Please can you consider doing an indepth review of the hunter 49 and hunter 50cc. Pros & Cons compared to European equivalents 🙏

The 410 has a problem as well.

I wonder, as future catamaran owner, if this issue is driven the used one’s price down…

The question is : is this a repair or a fix? I.e is it a flaw in the design issue or a materials failure issue?

Can you show the difference between other mass produced cats like Leopard? Are the bulk heads too small? Are they in the wrong location? I would be interested in a marine architects opinion as well. Thank you for your great videos!

If you can't handle the truth than stay away from people that throw stones!

Parley was a hurricane damaged boat when Colin bought it. He took the risk.

AAAH Hestia and the Anzac bridge Sydney

I think trimarans are the perfect sailing vessel. Fast, roomy, super tough. The center hull can handle the sail shrouds, and provide motor/engine drive, while the amas provide stability and LOTS of additional space. Also, a faster boat is a safer boat, when you're running away from danger, and into safety.

Many years ago I owned a Lagoon 47. Loved the speed and roomy, comfortable lalyout BUT the first time I checked a thru hull valve the whole valve and housing turned and I found myself questioning its overall integrity. Both my previous mono hulls (C&C 48/Mason 54) were proven hard weather boats, a reality any serious sailor has to occasionally face. Wud not trust the Lagoon in a Nor'easter.

What suprise me is that lagoon has not came out to defend there reputation. They have not said what they are doing to change. The design changes needed to prevent this from happening to new yachts.

It's brave to pick up this subject again! Like hitting a wasp nest 😉All "knowledgeable" haste to make hash comments about cat's… and especially Lagoons… I think you are doing the right thing to put the whole fiasko into a decent perspective. Keep it up! Make a part two of this!

Catamarans dont take big chopped up waves well, they get torqued corner to corner too much, and rip apart.

Hey been missing you. Glad ur back. But who cares about boats with training wheels.

Making it good. The willingness to repair defects must be a core concept in any manufacturer. This is not an optional idea. My concern is much simpler. Lagoon demonstrated they do NOT have a design build process that absolutely prevents structural failures. An example of an company that does have a design build process that prevents these failures is Toyota. Design-build for a moving device such as a boat or car is not straightforward. It involves a lot of historical knowledge that is contained in chief engineer's head. In the best companies there are deep manuals that contain deep proprietary information about design build processes. This information is never shared outside the company. The stress analysis of a catamaran is not a simple engineering problem. The two hulls and mast in the middle present analysis problems that are not common to most structural engineers. Finite element analysis by computer is the primary solution used today. It is robust and requires a high-powered computer with specially trained engineers. So I do not give Lagoon a pass on this one. They flunked my standard. They do not have a process that prevents this from happening again.

It's not just Lagoon. Perhaps it would be more productive to name the cats that dont have stress induced issues.

The name Lagoon says where you can sail only. It doesn't say ocean like Oceanis etc. :)

It appears lagoon took a few short cuts to save on money.

of-course i am not a patron but have you done an episode about boom furling main sail systems ?

So will the repair last?

Hey, we used to watch you when you sailed, what happened? I remember you were sailing the ICW from Lake St, Clair. Do you still sail?

4:29 this is incorrect description of what is happening the hulls are not distorting but rather when the rigging is really tight it puts more stress on the transverse bulkheads splaying the hulls apart from each other. Rough seas magnify the issue to the bulkheads fail in compression. 12:33 I would not call it a design defect per se, but rather using incorrect and substandard materials in the construction. They NEVER should have used polyester resin and that cheap plywood in the construction of the bulkheads. Epoxy and heavier weight glass and broader tabbing and they never would have had an issue. Bean counters pared down to much the cost of materials and sacrifice of quality.

I am but a watcher of sailing on YT, not a sailing person myself - so, my "expertise" is accordingly weak. However, I do have some thoughts: If a problem arises (to me that is: 3 or more independent similar cases, no matter how high the number of boats, or whatever the product is, built), a company should FIRST inquire about the facts and only THEN look for excuses outside their responsibility. So, for me no absolving here. Considering all the forces working on a two-hull boat mentioned in the video, it does baffle me slightly that, even with a flydeck on top, those boats are just made of plywood! The repair kit seems to have some metal involved. I'd say: high time! Notwithstanding environmental concerns, it is my belief that for stability's sake, either more fiber/resin or some more metal components need to be installed here, to give the necessary strength.

Plywood is not meant to be used as a vertical support. Fail from the start.

Looking to buy a Lagoon 450, it is much more than bulkheads deformation. Decks are not glued, bulkhead not glued to the hulls, doors not sliding, crazy crackling while under sail, just plain bad workmanship. Problems impossible to spot in a normal survey. I would never touch a 450 with a 70 foot pole. One would have to budget a large amount of $$$ just for probable fixes and repairs, yes "PROBABLE".

All this just makes me like Wharrams more if I go with a catamaran for my next boat.

Could you imagine having that much money tied up in a boat and have it fall apart around you. Talk about knocking the wind out of your sails!

Was this a problem on the 440 also?

wow you don't hear of companies stepping up like that.

The last boat i would buy is a lagoon

Cant take a grounding, cant take tortional strain from incorrect sails, cant take too much strain on rig tightening..... cant take it to sea basically....