Speaking from a point of view of a person that actually has been working on cars for 20 some odd years, (including McLaren's)I feel that people have to realize that when you lower a vehicle too much You're actually preventing the suspension to have proper travel. It's like riding on a go-kart that has no suspension,for example, the thing just kind of hops about and virtually has no weight transfer. The next thing you know, you have the wheels full locked and just plow straight into a field. Part of a reason why this happens is the rubber itself only has a certain friction coefficient that you have to stay within before you break traction, when you have proper suspension movement and weight transfer, it makes it easier for the tire to stay fully planted onto the concrete. This is also why spring rates are so important. If it's too soft ,when you go into a corner, all the weight is going to transfer to one side. This is literally going to cause the opposite side to lose traction, again you're asking the tires to do too much. Yes, I know stabilizer bars and all that helps with body roll, however, braking is one example where soft suspension also hurts handling of the vehicle, the weight transfers all to front end and causes the ass end to get light at the same time. There really is a delicate balance setting up a good suspension system and could take hours upon hours to properly set it up.
I felt that when I was just running in Forza motor sport 7. That's why I think I have about 100 hours worth of tuning about 50 different cars to get them where I want. Goes to prove timing has genuinely come a long way in reaching games and im proud I care to delve into such a hard to be patient with thing because it makes you really connect with a vehicle.
I thought this was common knowledgewith any one who isnt a morron, that susspension has travel, lowering your car places it at a clsoer point to the limits of naturla travel thus reducing travel in one direction thus making it worse unless you adjust the suspension GEOMETRY to regain the travel you lost. All i know is my Rx7 can be lowered or raised about 1 inch before you ruin it's handling
Also you change all the geometry and roll center of the car, with mcpherson and some dwishbone you also change the camber and toe curves of the car. Too soft is too much weight transfer, too hard makes the car undriveable on any road that isn't mirror smooth. There's a balance, and it's softer than you think. Modern OEM is usually really good. suspension tuning is very complicated and honestly only way to get real info is to find an engineer and befriend them. Even people who race cars often have awful setups.
This wasn't an issue in some previous GTs, as the physics modeling would often let tires clip clear through the body at full stroke, but this cleared up the issue I was having with my R32 as well. Thanks!
Love this content, stuff like this gets me interested to hop back on and play. You really have that teacher like composure how you carry yourself in the explanations, I could easily follow more if this. Please do more subtle tuning guides and how things effect the cars in game!
I also agree. Nice calm voice. None of that ""please hit that button."" None of that ""LOOK AT THIS LOOK AT THIS"" CLICK BAIT CLICK BAIT. RU-vid fucking sucks because of those ass holes this guy is a legend. thank you for being calm having good audio and thank you for not being a complete ass.
I'm shocked people didn't know this. The only practical time to go absolute minimum ride height is for a top-speed run on like Route X. Remember - the suspension is trying to keep the vehicle off the ground AND keep the tires on the ground. Less ride height means the suspension has less ability to work so you'll have all kinds of issues with the car bouncing and snapping into over and understeer because the suspension isn't able to do anything. You want to stay low for lift and drag reasons, but you need to have enough ride height with the right spring and shock setup to keep the tires on the ground over bumps, banks and control weight transfer.
A little suspension theory while you're tuning up your rides - Bound/compression stiffness on your dampers controls how much resistance the damper has to being squished. Say you hit a bump or a curb - the tire sidewall will absorb some and then when it cant anymore, its going to apply a lifting force to the suspension. Not enough suspension travel or too stiff, car is gonna bounce, you're gonna have a very twitchy car. Ive heard it said "compression stiffness adds grip until it doesn't." It's going to hold against that tire bouncing up but at some point that energy has to go somewhere. If the suspension and tire can't dissipate it, the chassis will have to. Stiffer compression on the front is also going to resist nose dive from braking. Too stiff and again, absorption of the shock falls on the tires until suddenly there's no grip and understeer. Too soft and you're wallowing around like a boat. Likewise, stiffer rebound in the rear is going to resist the extension of the shocks. This can help control the nose dive under braking and allow a smoother loading of the tires while allowing a little less compression stiffness up front. If you imagine how your body leans braking, on the gas and turning, think of the car body leaning that way and whether a shock at a given corner (of the vehicle) is compressing or rebounding. Stiffen a motion, it'll be reduced but remember the tires! Let the suspension absorb some load to keep the tires biting!
Why are you shocked? We live in a world where not everybody knows everything. Yes I like cars and yes I like driving games, but does that mean I know literally everything about how cars should be setup and what impacts performance and handling? No, of course not. I can enjoy the game just as much though, in the same way that I can enjoy driving my real world car without knowing exactly how it all works. I'm sure there are things you don't know that I do...shocking eh?
@@X22GJP Perhaps my word choice implied a more negative tone than I had intended. It just feels obvious to me that putting any setting at an extreme value is going to have negative results for the vast majority of situations. When chasing top speed, you don't adjust the transmission slider all the way to the tallest gear settings; you don't set the brake bias all the way max front or rear; you don't turn the downforce all the way up to the maximum settings...not unless it's very intentional for a specific situation. Ride height is one of the most visually obvious ones, too. The tires are very visibly tucked into the fenders and thus unable to turn. My assumption was that before making adjustments to these technical settings, especially drastic ones set to the very limit of adjustment, there'd be a base understanding or some research into what these things do. I guess my advice to anyone that wants to poke at the settings, check out some guides people have written about tuning in GT and then make smaller adjustments. Tweak, test, tweak, test. If you send a slider all the way to one side, you're going to get a very extreme result and it's really difficult to gauge if you're closer to a good setup compared to the baseline or not. I do remember the little tool tips/information provided by the game were excellent on previous versions. I think it was Gran Turismo 4 that offered an excellent explanation of the toe angles, how toe in or out changes turning performance and how adjustments at the rear make a more significant difference than the front. With fairly advanced tuning options, it'd be nice to see more comprehensive tips. I personally find it really rewarding to find that perfect setup for specific tracks in different cars and loading the different sheets. I think if the game could guide tuning changes, especially ones that aren't visually apparent like damper settings, people would have more fun racing without resorting to super soft tires and have to pit so much.
Thank you for this! The horrible turning radius was bother the hell out of me and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why it was so bad. In the same car too! For some reason I thought this was like other racing titles where you can just slam the car and it doesn't effect the gameplay. I should've know better.
This doesn't happen with all cars but general tendencies are almost always better if you lift the front up. Also, in most hairpins, there is a banking of the roadway. Allow the car to have some roll, i.e. don't slam it to the ground, don't restrict the dampeners as far as they will go, don't put the sway bars to 10. Every part of the undercarriage can be used to make the car corner better. Have differences in the front dampeners and rear dampeners, the front roll bar and the rear, the front frequency and the rear. These allow the car to flex and contort which will allow it to rotate better. One thing to remember in GT7 though. Every few races, go into the shop and check your car status. It may need the rigidity reset. IRL, cars with a lot of performance value will twist the frames. This will eventually become very evident. I ran a 79 Pontiac Formula Firebird around the track back in the 90's, racing in a budget league. Half way through the season, I had to have the frame reset because the front right tire was no longer touching the ground. The torque from the engine had warped the frame that badly. The fact that US courses are usually left turn heavy hid this fact till you could look under the tire and actually see daylight.
Absolutely, the fact they're even programming code to stop the clipping of tyre on bodywork and using a reduce steering lock to ensure that. Brilliant - and kudos to Harmonic for figuring it out. My initial thoughts were their trying to stop the top of the tyre from protruding through the arch graphically (as we sometimes saw on previous GT releases but it's much more sophisticated now)
I consider myself a car guy but unless you can see "in person" which in a virtual world you can't, you are going to miss things like this, I had no idea, so I am super grateful for this video
Wow, it all makes so much sense now. I was getting frustrated because I thought my controller was going bad. Glad to hear some simple tuning can solve so many problems
@@Harmonic14 Tuning of FR cars would be super helpful especially dealing with gear tuning and helping to reduce the car spinning out. Great content, keep it coming!
@@procrastinateon3 you wanna lower the gear ratios so your torque doesn't out power the grip of your tires. Your optimal gear ratios will vary on the type of tire you use.
Wow, happens on the rx7 in a much worse way, allows turn out but on return to center it sloooooows way down lol. I couldn’t figure it out until I saw this. You’re a god!
great info, that's crazy how the game wants to be this realistic but did add in rubbing or bottoming out sound effects that would be useful info to be able to hear as you would in a real car right?
Luckily gt is known for upgrading their games. Wouldn't be a surprise if they were on it already, but ofc we need to keep talking about the things we want added in the game. Not in a dick way, respectfully.
I run 92mm front 97mm rear on my r32, don't have this problem. I did originally but I spent about 30 hours tuning it across every track and now it's a 700 PP god thats in most cases on par with Gr3 cars. Can give you my setup if you want, I have 60x 700 PP limited cars and the r32 is quickest by over 1s on average.
I have built an r33 which is very quick. Handling is pretty much what I would consider perfect. The only issue is downforce. It's super fast but super unforgiving. A driving error often means disaster as opposed to dedicated gr3 and 4 cars with all the extra downforce
I didn't really try tuning the car here - this was just for an example. The R32 is decent enough, but I've built many cars that are faster than it at the same PP rating. Going into the gearing bug is a whole other can of worms, too...
This has a large variable range. It depends on the width of your car the gap between your front and rear heights. It even depends where your engine is, and if you have the weight ballast balance.
I never considered this. I don't think I have experienced it but now I will be paying attention to it. Great advice, keep up the good work and I hope to see you on the track one day.
I learned about this since I always felt feedback on my wheel on a specific part on the track. Only after watching the replay I noticed the sparks underneath my M3 ‘03 and adjusted the ride height until it was perfect
Wheel liners and fenders. USA. Wheel Arches and wings. UK and Europe. Basically your lowering to the point that the wheels rub the arches. This has been in previous GT games. It seems more prevalent now.
Wow, I thought the game was broken like it needed an update for it. I was like this game sucks for now until they fix this issue. This was so helpful, thank you so much for the info!
I noticed the turning radius was decreasing using the exact same car on the exact same hairpin when I lowered it too much. I didn't really understood what was the reason, but I figured out I needed to rise the body. Thanks for a nice explanation
I've been able to address this in the R32 while keeping the ride height at minimum by putting ballast in the back of the car. The R32 is extremely front heavy at something absurd like 60:40 after you do weight reductions so using ballast to make it closer to 50:50 seem to prevent the car resting on the front wheels allowing you turn effectively.
I imagine you can achieve the same effect without ballast by playing with the compression ratio on the suspension but I haven't played around with this since getting a 50:50 weight ratio is desirable for handling for other reasons.
Basic stuff, if the cars too low and too stiff youl get almost no body roll and hardly any dynamic weight transfer so with a little more movement in the suspension you can get the car to yaw better aswell as turn in better, the most important thing is keeping on top of the weight transfer
I just tried this last night in the same car ,your turning radius sucks when it's too low ,almost wanted to not even turn around some corners and it wanted to go straight ,good video to show others!
Love your channel man, please carry on doing tune explanations videos, cos you demonstrate very well HOW it effects the car. My issue is I know what I’m doing by adjusting things and what I’m doing, I just don’t understand HOW it effects the car. So I have to do trial and error to tune my cars and it’s painfully slow
I usually make the car low as possible but, there is a few cars where if you do that, at times it wont allow you to steer at all, it's crazy, massive difference. Most cars can be very low which is nice.
I didn’t realize what was going on with a few of my cars at first. I don’t dump the suspension but low to a point that all other adjustments keep the suspension fairly tight and stiff. Thanks for sharing this as I thought it was a glitch in the game lol
Tuning in GT7 is fantastic. I figured this out around the rally Cafe mission. Raising the height fixed so many of my issues and shakyness of the car. Cafe was great tho, got my cake.
I haven't played gt7 for a while and i run a wheel as well as suspension as low as it can go and i thought my wheel was broken.. Thank you for this it makes sence to why i have problems taking bends
hahaaaa! THIS is my exact problem -- of course it totally makes sense. I hadn't even realized it because in all previous GT games, the best ride height always seemed to be "a few clicks up from minimum". Turns out in GT7 it is now "many more clicks from minimum than you expect" :P
Hmm interesting. If you run that low of a set up I wonder if you try accelerating to initiate turning instead of relying as much on wheel response and see how it changes the outcome. You could also change your method of trail braking and take a different line if sacrificing the downforce or stance is that big of an issue to change. I know some people love them fully slammed and cambered out lol Shifting the weight of the vehicle from front during braking to rear will raise the front end maybe enough to clear. Inversely if you have the appropriate ride height you can stab the brakes to dip the front end into a turn and use throttle to turn. I'm interested in testing out the absolute limits when I have time.
Those are some good suggestions, but I don't think weight transfer under braking would change anything here - at least not with the other settings that were on the car. The problem exists when stationary, and you can't physically shift weight farther back when braking than it would be stationary.
Great video explaining the issue of chassis hitting the wheels. Some cars like focus rs rallye wont even do anything after hitting the wheels If you use wide wheels the values differ compared to normal tires as well Just like in real life
I wouldn’t put ride height to minimum but if you do a low height with cambering front end, cornering might improve. And if you suffer with traction improve toe. I used to tune an ek so fine it was literal cornering perfection. Suspension is so important in this game and people overlook the dynamics of it for power.
I like to live about 5mm or 10mm left lowering the heights, almost never the lowest setting, even in GTS cause it's noticeable the difference through corners
Too much anti-roll stiffness can cause understeer. One thing you can try is softer in the front and stiffer in the back. Since the chassis can't twist *that* much, the rear will fight the body roll and the rear outside tire will take the increased load which could help induce some oversteer to rotate through the corner.
I was about to obviously you need low but can't just button it out, then I remembered, I've been geeking car since I was like 9 so for 15 year's and not everything is as Common sense as I feel it like 😂😂 We all started somewhere, so thanks for these helpful videos.
I’ve noticed it’s particularly bad with the Group 4 Mustang. It’s quite an understeery car anyway so if you try braking into Mulsanne or Arnage you’ll just go dead straight into the gravel.
Nice demonstration. Have you checked out if wheel size and wide body kits play into this? It would be interesting to know of any performance implications.
It would be cool if they made L2 the clutch R2 gas square + X shift up down, issue i suppose is a brake pressure without having another trigger button but dang a clutch would be dope
This problem plagued me early on another thing to consider if its happening to you is wheel options wider or offset wheels can cause it. I do not think the rim size does
My Beetle has the wide body mod and the Porsche engine swap. I slammed it for some stance photos in scapes and then tried to get some drifting shots. It wouldn't turn on hairpins. Just straight into the wall. I raised it and got it turning again but there was vibration in my controller during turns so I kept raising until the vibration quit.
the issue i ran into with my R32 was i upgraded my differentials and torque vectoring to fully customizable, i guess i had raised the initial torque too much because going more than 20mph in a turn and id only get 50% steering input, like with your low ride height, and once i slowed down enough, it would give me the 100%. it was blowing my mind with the issue and then i figured it out. Definitely an awesome feature to keep you mindful.
Well that explains a lot. I like to go with the lowest ride height possible. I remember I was doing a race on the same track. And I've noticed usually that when I go through that corner I have to take it fairly slow but never thought much of it because I'm playing the campaign mode. I don't play online much. But I remember one race specifically I went into the corner, I was trying to take the turn a little faster, I get slowed down roll off the brakes and I start turning. Well, the car literally did not turn at all. I was easily going slow enough that it still should've made the corner.
Good explanation! Generally you want your entire ride height (front and rear) as low as is practical. Lowering the entire car means you have the lowest center of gravity possible, which in theory means your car can change direction more easily and should remain more stable. However, because of physics and imperfections in racing surfaces, this can pose problems if you go too far. The first and most obvious is your example here, where the ride height is so low you can't turn the front wheels, due to their making contact with the wheel wells. This is going to decrease your steering angle and increase your tire wear, since not only is the track surface taking rubber off the tires, but so is the car itself. But what if you're in an open-wheeled car and don't have to worry about tire rub? As low as possible right? This is where you'll run into the second and more common problem: Bottoming out. Even though you want the car as low as possible, having it too low means that the car's chassis (the body, specifically the underside of it) will make contact with the track surface. A good rule of thumb is, this is BAD. The only thing you want making contact with the track is the rubber from your tire tread. You can get away with a low ride height with stiffer springs, since they'll keep the car from oscillating too much over bumps, but stiffening springs changes handling characteristics and tire/alignment dynamics (how your tires interact with the track surface). And so this can be a double-edged sword. Likewise, you can get away with a low enough ride height that the car bottoms out *slightly* on straightaways or in turns. This contact has to be very slight, however. If the bottom of the car "hits" the track surface it takes load off the tires and could create a loss of control. If the car bottoms out more than "skimming" the track at ANY point during a turn, that loss of control is nearly guaranteed. This is without going into adding "rake" through ride heights (having the front lower than the rear or vice versa) which also changes handling.
a low ride height can also screw you over under heavy braking in this game as the front wheels seem to lock up and youll just continue to travel straight when you try and turn.
Interesting obsevation! On top of that; low car-height = no weight tranfering = understeer. Too stiff springs (& dampers) will only make it worse. Stiff as a brick. Then put on a too tight rear diff..
I have know this for a very long time, What he says about the tire wall thing, is real, GT has had this for years, Other games have the tire wall pass though the fender and it don't effect the cars. it also has the same effect in real life too.
@@mxtt8170 nismo is a brand There is plenty of Nismo cars, as there are plenty of Ford cars You haven't stated a model, I do not know which NISMO you are talking about
@@mxtt8170 NISMO is the brand. NISMO literally means NISsan MOtorsports. You don't drive a "nissan nismo" do you? Same as you don't drive a Porsche RUF, or a Ford Cosworth... GTR is the model. A NISMO GTR. Same as a NISMO Juke.
The vehicles center of gravity is more well controlled with the racing suspension but the also the wheels you can get better grip characteristics with a 17inch wheel with more tire but with a 20 inch wheel the tires sidewalls should be a lot more stiffer, there's a lot variables depending if the cars being built for straight line or quick acceleration, time attack etc
I made this mistake yesterday, minimum ride height on an R32 GTR, raced on Suzuka and due to the inclines/declines I did nothing but understeer during tight corners, upped the ride height by 10 and all was fine
You have anti roll set at 1 for the front. So when you turn most of the weight is rolling onto one wheel. I've not watched the whole video but it stood out like a sore thumb to me. Hope you get the car balanced and stable.
With my R34 I was on the Nurb and every time I was braking into a tight turn I noticed my wheels scrubbed the body. Originally I thought it was lag as it jolted my steering wheel around and because I first encountered it online. I thought about it for a while, and had the revelation. I raised the front height and shebang.. I now can turn again.
Before I finish the vid I will say I have slammed my cars in gt always until now because I can notice in this one it affects the car alot. I will watch
If you bottom out any Ferrari it's almost impossible to turn with them unless you're down to 3 MPH..However if you bottom out the Charger Hellcat you can almost drift with it! Good stuff!
I noticed that a car could be too low in GT7 after i bouand upgraded my Veyron and the rear was so unstable that anytime i tried to turn, it would oversteer like hell. At first i thought it was the stock downforce, but after installing some ugly wings, it kept spinning out for no reason, specially after road depressions. So i tried stiffening it and changed the height from 95 to 120 and it instantly fixed the problem. Then i tried 110 and it continued. Tried 115 and it looks like the sweet spot for cornering speed and stability since the wheels aren't touching the panels. This made it go from undriveable to 6:21 at the Nordschleife with a non perfect lap (actually the first lap i did XD) this on stock aero. I need to try out more stuff with tuning in this game, I've been buying sports suspension and it fits most cars really well, but some might need some tweaks
