The RU-vid algorithm got me, and this video popped up in my feed. I’ve been putting together a signed 1933 Goudey set for over 15 years. I’m almost finished writing a book about the set, and my collection, including the stories of three collectors that got the cards signed originally in the 1930’s. One being the famous Uncle Jimmy. I currently have 217 of the 239 cards in the set autographed. There have always been TTM graphers, including Uncle Jimmy. In the early 90’s I paid Mantle to sign cards for me for $50 each. That was a ton of money back in the day, but today, they are worth far more than $50. Mantle signed tons, and there were definitely a lot of folks getting cards signed in the 80’s and 90’s. Are there fake signed cards? No doubt, but us serious collectors do our homework. Provenance is king, and third-party opinions are important. Most of the stuff hitting the market now is from collections where people are simply cashing in. The fake T206 card scandal happened because crooks were looking to make money. They did a reasonably good job, but the community figured it out and identified them. Not all T206 cards are fakes though, many were signed TTM in the 1970’s after the Glory of Their Time was released. Anyway, you make good points, like with anything though, if you’re going to be a collector and invest serious money, you need to do your homework. Due diligence is key. If anyone is interested in seeing some of my collection, you can search signed 1933 Goudey on RU-vid. I’ve done a few podcasts. If you want to see some of my collection, please follow me on Instagram @signed1933goudey Happy Holidays to all!
Thanks for the input, I appreciate the insights!!! But…. What about the question… where were these cards 10+ years ago… certainly not at auction ( in general) It’s just a question. I have no doubt that a vast majority of signed vintage baseball cards are real, but I still question the numbers now being offered as compared to prior years ago
They were sitting in collections. Most of us consider ourselves autograph collectors, not card collectors. Uncle Jimmy got over 225 1933 Goudey cards signed in the 1930's and kept them for 80 years! There are several other similar collections. I know me and three other guys that have over 1000 signed 1933 Goudey cards combined and none of us are moving them any time soon. I'm in my mid-40's and am the youngest age wise by far. Many of the other collectors are older, retired, moving into their 70's and 80's and are seeing the prices realized over the last few years and are starting to sell off some of their cards they have acquired. @@Bluejacket66
Dave I 100% agree on the Perez Steele postcards so beautiful with the auto. I wish i had that Mantle you showed. I was able to get the Duke Snider great moments from the basement collection 🤘
All good points Dave. As someone who has an emphasis on autographs and has recently gone back to loving cards, I can say there are plenty (more then plenty) of forgeries out there. I will, however, say that it's not that easy to fool the experts (especially with Mantle autos). There are plenty of people that don't work for the TPA's that can not only can tell you the Mantle is bad, but the forger (if known) who did it. They all have their tells. I used to be very paranoid about Mantle unless I got it in person, but learned from other people some of the tells of the forgers as well as of Mantle himself. Having been to several shows that Mantle signed at, I will say I did see a variety of cards being signed (a lesser number by far than balls, photos etc), but I can't really remember any of his earliest cards being signed (more like mid to late 60's cards...something that could be picked up at the show for not too much money back in the day. As for the T206's etc, I can see a few more signed by players that lived in to the 1960's and 70's, but to find Tinkers, Evers and Chance etc is pretty ludicrous to me. The funny thing is, the t206 rule does not seem to apply to other "common" cards that were easy to send in the mail to players that were on the popular player mailing lists. Early 50's bowmans were quite popular, and probably easy to get and not worth much, so it makes sense that people would send them. Here's my rules for autographs: 1. If you get it in person, you don't need a 3rd party to tell you it's real? 2. If you think it looks off, but the TPA's like it, do you really want it in your collection? 3. If you really like it but the TPA's don't, do some additional homework (there are plenty of experts out there on net54 for example). 4. Bottom line is, you work too hard for your money...don't just throw it away. By the way, now that I'm getting more in to cards, I'm finding there are almost as many fake, trimmed, and doctored cards in the marketplace as forged autos...I guess it's just the times we live in. Have a great Christmas Dave, as always your videos are awesome.
Head scratcher for me too. I remember seeing mantle signing at shows in the early 90s and they were hundreds of people in line. I don’t recall ever seeing anyone with a card in their hands. It was all baseballs and photos, and every once in a while a bat.
This is why I never collected autographs aside from ones that I witnessed myself. Authenticating autos is subjective and I didn’t want to get stuck with a fake auto. I completely agree with you that given enough time and practice almost anyone can forge and autograph. If there’s anything we’ve learned in the hobby is that if there is a chance to cheat people out of their hard earned money, someone will do it.
Great video my friend, thank you for sharing this and please continue the awesome work. Also I hope you and the family had an amazing holiday season. Peace and Blessings always
Man you are a “Purist”. That is a Great Thing! Man, after watching this video I was thinking “Man there is way Way WAY too many ultramodern autograph rookie cards!”.
Well the companies make them so you will buy their product. Or they will make them in a dozen different colors… or stamp meaningless numbers on them so you will think they are special… they are not
Really appreciated you speaking your mind. Your insight has been valuable to me in my collecting since I started to watch your channel. I try to stay away from HOF or really famous player autos unless I get them in-person. If it’s a lesser known player that I like, I will take the chance if it’s not real expensive.
My neighbor worked as an usher at Forbes Field in the late 50s and early 60s and acquired a lot of autographs of the top stars of the NL and of course the Pirates. He just kept his collection private. He also later worked for the Albuquerque Dukes minor league team so he got a lot of cards signed by old MLBers (who were coaches/visiting) in the 70s and 80s. Amazing collection-and yes nearly all of them are signed with ball point pen and he wasn’t thinking about “mint” condition when he was acquiring these from the late 50s-mid 80s
@@Bluejacket66 Ha-not sure either. It was cool to see his collection though (not my thing personally either), but I was more intrigued by some of the more forgotten players that he had.
Great video topic Dave. I’ve wondered this as well. Most people that “destroyed” their rookie cards with an auto back in the 1980’s and 1990’s must have hid their cards in shame. Cashing in now! My local shop in the late 1980s had dozens and dozens of signed cards. All types of players, not just local Brewers. Price was usually $5-$10 plus the card value. Only problem was even my young brain could notice all the autos were in the same handwriting! Happy holidays to you Dave!
You have the same mindset as my Dad. When I was little and wanted to get baseball cards signed he would always tell me it's a bad idea and that I should get a baseball signed instead or photos. Still my Dad let me collect how I wanted to and I did get many cards signed, but you're right in that getting cards signed was generally a no-no among the majority. I think there is a multitude of factors of why your seeing more vintage cards signed popping up. People did collect that way even though it wasn't the norm, a great deal of these people might have been autograph collectors first and card collectors second. We have to remember that autograph collecting and the autograph world is bigger than the sports card world. One of my favorite collecting niches has been adding obscure Phillies autographs into the collection and generally I've found a bunch of cards from the 50s and 60s signed. Then of course you have the whole world of TTM autographs and player's post retirement. Guys like Stan Musial probably signed hundreds of thousands of autographs. With all things as you mention Dave, there are fakes out there and there are even fake autographs in PSA holders, just like there are trimmed and doctored high grade vintage cards in PSA holders. As with all things, the buyer must do their due diligence. Fun discussion.
@@Bluejacket66 I tend to believe more people collect autographs than cards, autographs are more broader in scale and people all across the globe collect them, whereas cards are more centralized here. I will say cards of course are more valuable, so if we are looking at this from a money standpoint, of course cards dominate autographs. Not questioning that. I'm more talking about scope of people who collect when I said the autograph world is bigger, compared to cards. Just my opinion.
I’m not a big auto collector either but I went to school with guys that could look at a picture and draw it perfectly. Just from natural artistic ability. I would think those guys could copy an autograph perfectly too 🤷♂️
I am not seeing a massive issue with TPAs certifying fake vintage autos outside of the example you cited. Sure there are some, but some of us were quietly stacking mantle mays and Koufax vintage autos for 20 years because we were getting them for basically nothing.
Like me, a lot of collectors who came back in the hobby over the pandemic were kids back when a lot of the HOFers would sign at local shows and through the mail. I had a bunch of these in my PC that I got graded by PSA over the last several years as the hobby boomed. I think this is what’s happening; older collectors who now are selling their signed cards for a premium today, and/or trading up for other cards. A lot fewer signed mantle cards than signed balls; there must be a million Mantle signed balls out there from all his show signings.
Long time watcher, my first comment, Having been burned by a few forgeries with early purchases, including a Mantle, I targeted certified Bank Checks. Much easier to research the correct bank, check numbers and dates, types of pen (eg Ty Cobb signing with green pen), more difficult to forge a check with all that data and cancelled stamp and the full legal signature. Also like knowing that this was in the player’s possession, they filled out the entire check with payee, amounts, dates along with their signature. Having a G.H. Ruth and a John H. Wagner, Ty Cobb and Walter Johnson check displayed matted and framed along with a photo and a plaque with career stats, IMHO, is a great way to celebrate the player and show off a piece of history, Bonus if you find a check made out to cash, you get a second auto on the back! Love your videos, because of you I started collecting food and beverage cards, including some nice Ty Cobb ice cream cards. Thank you!
Great to hear from you. I agree that checks are likely the best way to guarantee and authentic sig. sometimes it’s interesting seeing what they were purchasing or who they were paying
Dave - I agree with you. On card autos were always shunned. Now that they're popular, where did all of the vintage ones come from?? I'm sure some people asked these guys to sign cards back in the day, but it wasn't common. I'm especially surprised to see the pre war signatures on cards. A lot of those guys died before card shows were a thing (they were never paid to sit at a table and sign autographs). I'm hesitant to buy them, even when they are pretty cool looking. My take, if the player died before 1985, they probably have very few, if any, signed cards. Great video! Thanks for sharing!
Agree 100%...never got into the Autograph game...My collecting doesn't go back as far as yours..I started in 81 but went through the mid 80s with all the Jordan fakes so since then just have always stayed clear. Good stuff Dave. Merry Christmas and have a Happy and Safe New Year!
I do think a fair bit of it is now that they are popular, more are being brought to the market to be sold. However, that same popularity also brings more forgeries too- forgers only forge thinks that are desirable and can make them money- that's the whole point for them. I'm sure there are many (especially on the pre-war type stuff) that are forged. There are definitely less vintage cards signed than other items for most players though, due to the exact taboo you are talking about. I remember this even more recently still being a taboo. It's probably become more popular in the last 5-7 years. Interesting topic Dave, thanks for sharing!
I remember when I was young and collecting where it was “wrong” to have cards autographed. It took away from the value of the card, especially rookie cards. Now it seems like that is the “new” thing. My opinion is I feel the same way about autographs (Balls, Photos, Perez Steel). Also, I believe there is a ton of fake autographs out there. Thanks again for sharing Dave.
I agree with you dave. I never liked autographed baseball cards. To me, there's nothing like a autograph baseball. It looks so much better on a ball to me.
Dave, you make some great points! I’m not expert in this field to give my opinion. I do think it’s scary to pay big money for an auto and not know the truth. Maybe the autograph collectors out there, would prefer this topic not be discussed, because they don’t want some of there cards being seen as forgeries. Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Dave, I thought I posted on this one. I really enjoyed your perspective. To me slabbing autographed baseball cards seems like a recent concept. While PSA slabbed autographed cards prior, they didn't begin dual service until Dec. 2015 (grade on card and auto). Then in April 2019 SGC stopped grading non-factory issued autographed cards, so PSA became the only game in town. As time passes, I think we'll see more and more autographed cards in slabs. I also think there are a lot of fakes out there, just like a lot of fake or trimmed cards in slabs. Hope you have a great 2024, and I'd like to connect at the National.
Celebrities have been signing the carte de visite photograph and the postcard since the Victorian era. The sportscard is a natural medium for the autograph. Only some had the foresight to get nice examples signed in the 80's/90's, and now those individuals are cashing in. This is the primary reason for the explosion of examples on the market.
My dad had some fanmail from players he wrote to when he was a kid one of the old yankees signed his card and wrote a letter saying "its a shane lou or babe arent around to sign these, they never even signed tobbacci cards when they were alive" so he was always extremely skeptical but he did get marquard on a t206 we still both own together (: he went in person and the auto is much shakier then ithers ive seen on the market. We dont share scans of it we dont wish to aid forgers
Great insight, Dave. I am big into art and am always learning about the fakes in that world. You cannot be a scrub and get away with it. Like you said though, given practice, I bet many of us could get the practice down on signatures given the right ink & pen.
I completely agree - back in the day (the 80s) it was thought that autographs on cards decreased the cards value. People had balls, postcards and photos autographed - almost never cards. Mantle died in 1995 - seems like more and more are available.
I totally agree. I think 90% of all vintage autographed cards are forgeries. There are just too many of them that have shown up over the past 5 years. I also agree that autographed cards ruin the card. I would much rather have an 8x10 photo autographed.
Hello Dave! Opened first pack in 1985, but I have to say authenticated autographs on vintage cards can be very cool, as long as they feel like they could be native to the original design. I think the common use of facsimile autos in vintage designs set the template that gives a kind of design permission for live autos. I don’t care for autographs on card fronts that already have a facsimile auto, but when they don’t have one - I love when the player himself adds it. That said - you’re asking great questions! I think the answer is most likely a combo of the two phenomena you raised: popularity of on card autos has exploded so people who had them are cashing in - and so are counterfeiters. Great data - great questions! Merry Christmas, happy new year!
I’ve been an on card autograph collector for 40 years , never did I think about it defacing a card and never did I get them because they would be worth $$ someday , I just loved having an image signed by the player , but obviously it’s a big business now
Back in the day, it was heresy to have a card autographed. It decreased the value. This gives more credence to these vintage autographed cards being fake.
I’ve been collecting for nearly 40 years and agree with the influx of on card autos seems astounding. However having said that I always thought on card auto were super cool. To me it was a combination of two different ways to collect. You could always get another card of a player but the thought of having one that they actually held and signed made it that much more collectible to me. I agree that a single signed baseball is the most beautiful way to display an autograph but after you own a number of them storage and display become an issue so cards would be my next choice. I do know that I was in the minority though. When I did shows or TTM and got cards signed I was told repeatedly that was a bad choice because I killed the value of the card but 1. It was what liked so didn’t care and 2. cards that I had signed weren’t that expensive to get a second one. I know that a number of TTM collectors would send cards to players that had high percentage of returns but guys like Mantle don’t fit into that category. The part that I think you’re onto something is the high value cards like 54 Aaron or 51B Mays or Mantle or even any 52 Topps high number card. As a Pee Wee Reese collector it was no big deal to get an autograph of his say 55 Bowman but I never saw anyone get his 52 Topps high number signed. Newer collectors don’t realize how many autographs were forged especially in the 90’s Operation Bullpen era. There are so many of those still floating out there but people put their trust in a TPA and never think twice. I think forgeries are probably on the rise again because like you said the potential financial windfall to getting an autograph passible is worth the squeeze for sure. Great video as always Dave and I appreciate your thoughts.
I love autographed baseball cards. however, growing up they were extremely rare, and people rarely purchased them because there was no way of authenticating them. I personally don't usually buy autographed cards unless they are done in conjunction of the printing company
Probably 20-25 years ago I bought a Mantle/Williams/DiMaggio triple signed baseball on eBay at auction. The seller said there was a find of 6 or so of these but they were not professionally authenticated. Guessing I paid $400-$500. Everything looked great and I enjoyed having the ball for a few years. I considered sending it to PSA, but didn't want to spend another $400-$500 with the possibility it was a forgery, so I sold it. Looking back, I wish I jkept it. As for signed cards, I agree that signatures usually look nicer on other media, however many collectors just like cards, and there are alternative storage considerations for other items. I don’t consider myself and autograph collector, but have some on 1956 Topps baseball. I am generally more interested in the condition of the card and if the autograph presents well. I agree, the signed Mantle card you showed in your video is unappealing. A signed 1951 Bowman however may make me drool! When it comes to signed cards, they can become appealing due to scarcity. I suspect your first thought about more coming to market following comparable sales is accurate, as cards which are first or early to market generally sell for more. As a 1956 Topps baseball collector, I have a bunch of autos I picked up long ago as a companion to the set. My favorite is a signed Hoyt Wilhelm, which happens to be the highest graded by PSA. However, I am not a set regiistry guy. Someday I would love to purchase a signed 1956 Mantle, though I may need to mortgage the farm! It would be interesting to graph PSA/DNA graded Mantle cards over time. Yes, professional graders are the best we have, though are not perfect. Neither are the courts and our judicial system. Thanks for another great video! Merry Christmas and Happy and healthy 2024! 🎉
Those Memory Lane Mantles came from Matt who gathered them over years. He rolled those up in a signed 1952 Topps Mantle. Did ample research prior to each purchase. As many of the folks on here, remember, getting cards signed was considered the same as drawing on them (as you said “defaced”). When I collected in the 1980s & early 1990s, nearly NOBODY (& I mean NOBODY) ever got their cards signed at shows. I do remember some kids getting cards signed outside stadiums only because they didn’t have the money to buy photos or balls. If they were lucky, they had the yearbook or team issued cards to get signed . I also recall people emailing former ballplayers cards in the mail because they were flat and cheap to get signed (cost of stamps). So the countless pre-1970s signed cards surfacing are either from the extremely small % of kids who couldn’t afford photos / balls , TTMers, or forgeries.
As much as I highly respect MattyC, he does sometimes SEEM to pump his cards ( his CENTERED cards, and a mantle autos). He has not owned those signed mantles very long….as best I can tell. I probably confusing his doing “ show and tell” with pumping and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way. I would much rather have his PSA 5 52 Mantle than a signed one
@Bluejacket66 MattyC, I have seen some of his videos. Probably when I drooled over the thought of a signed 1951 Bowman. You make a good point about rather having an unsigned 1952 PSA 5. Last night a 1956 Aaron PSA 4 with Auto 8 sold. I bid, but got to a point when I asked myself if I would rather buy a PSA 8, and stopped bidding. The thing is, there are many more PSA 8s than signed 56s. Did I make a mistake not bidding higher?
This is what I love about the hobby. I love autographed cards and have no interest in autographed balls or index cards. There are so many ways to collect!
I think another cool medium is Hall of Fame postcards. I used to have about 100 different autos but sold them. Autos don’t do much for me but I appreciate the attraction
@JunkWaxHero , just posted up a video on three Perez Steele postcards. Dave, I think with the lastest boom of collecting and the attraction of $$ for vintage cards; the Mantles stuffed in closets from years past, are surfacing. Good video.
Agree with you completely, I never saw autographed vintage cards at shows in the past. I had the players sign Perez Steele or photos, rarely on cards. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I always chuckle when I look through bins of cheap raw vintage cards and see several of them signed. Seen thousands like that over the years. Probably real but who knows.
Two things I didn't hear you mention, but could also explain part of the explosion of vintage autos. First, a lot of collectors that would never sell their PC are dying. Their kids don't have the same attachment and sell their cards. Second, the pandemic gave people a lot of free time and brought a lot of collectors back to the hobby (including me). That said, I acknowledge there are probably tons of fakes as well.
Sure but my point is, in general, back in the day when many of these on card autos would have been signed… people didn’t want in card autos. Now, here they are coming out of the woodwork . My explanation is comparing 2012 to 2023
@@Bluejacket66 I'm not certain most people wouldn't have wanted on card autos. When I was a kid, I would have much rather had Pete Rose autograph his baseball card than a note card. I understand you are comparing 2012 to 2023 and both points I made help explain some of the reason for the explosion of available autos. Your explanations are also very valid. My point is, it's probably a variety of factors that have led to the proliferation of on-card autos.
Common sense tells you something is fishy about all these autos appearing the last couple of years. I don’t remembering myself or anyone having players sign baseball cards. That was a no no
I've always been a little skeptical of vintage autographed cards as well (particularly pre-war). Interesting to see how many more of them come to auction now vs 10 years ago. I'm sure that the recent popularity certainly plays a part but the skeptic in me thinks there are other things at play as well. Great video Dave and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
If there's one thing for certain, there's always someone out there trying to take advantage of others. Also, you may trust your buddy but they can be duped, too.
Yep, the only explanation is that these autos were in collections, granddad died, kids were selling them. Now dad passed on and for the third time since the 70’s, the cards come back up for sale, except now the cards. are being slabbed. I was always against the RC being autographed as well. That was a big thing that started being a controversial issue in the early 80’s , dont get those Rookies signed.
How has the total number of items at the auction houses listed changed in the same time period? I haven’t used any so honestly don’t know. I’m wondering if the hobby as a whole and auction houses have grown since then and as a percentage autographed vintage card numbers may be closer.
No change. Thousands of items offered. In general i don’t see a difference in the number of offerings at each auction. There are more auction houses for sure
Autos can be tricky for sure, even pack issued autos can be forgery’s. There is a specific style of Bonds pack issued auto that someone associated with Bonds claims where ghost singed on his behalf so who knows. I’m always suspicious of anything signed in bold sharpie that is claimed to be signed before 1990.
Very interesting Dave. I don't buy vintage autographs on cards because of the forgery issue, plus I feel autographs on cards tend to detract from the card's beauty. Like you I would prefer baseballs, photo's or index cards if I collected autographs. I do have some cards that were produced with autographs and they tend to look nice, so I'm good with them.
I think you did a really good job on this video and I think you made some great points. Hopefully people stop and think a bit more after watching this.
Sir, I am wandering over from the Midlife sports card community. I haven't been back to collecting but about a year. It's blatantly obvious the general level of corruption is overwhelming to me. It's very sad knowing this generation of collectors will be so dejected and suffer. Happy to join your channel and learn.
Hello . If you watch midlife Please look thru my extensive RU-vid catalog which goes back 7-8 years. I believe you will find the knowledge here, rather than musings and opinions. Cheers. Always DM or contact me with any questions regarding vintage and prewar cards. I specialize in regional and food issues, mantle, Mathewson, Ruth, Cobb
@Bluejacket66 I'm a low budget set builder doing low hanging fruit to fund my hobby. I would have lost my mind having a shot at all those unfinished less desirable sets lol.
Great video Dave! I believe it's a combination of money bringing these cards to market, followed by counterfeiters. In 1983, the first Roger Maris golf tourney, there were now shows in Fargo, and we had just started a collecting club. Most of us got vintage cards signed by Maris, Mantle, Ford, etc. I got a 1962 Maris/Cepeda signed, and a couple banquet programs, and these were all free on the golf course or at the banquet, got Moose Skowron on a 1967 Topps card, Richardson on a 1963 Fleer. One of my buddies got a 1960 Mantle signed, another got a complete run of Maris cards signed. Back then, our discussion was on value. Autograph cards had a smaller base of people to sell to. I was never really around people that said it wasn't right to get a card signed, it more or less preference. I hear it a lot on RU-vid, that collectors said it was a bad deal to get cards signed. Not sure what it was like in the 1950's and before or how long TTMer's were around. I remember TTMer's in the 1980's.
Agree 1000% Dave. I've been waiting for someone to say this. When I see autographed cards that are graded, I wonder how PSA/SGC/etc even knows that they are real. They are guessing. I feel like everyone just takes it as gospel, but no idea why.
I believe there are quite a lot of signed Mantle cards out there. While it’s true that many people said a signature devalued the card, there were people who didn’t care about value and got cards signed. I personally sent a 1933 Goudey to get signed by Carl Hubbell in 1983 and had I been able to attend one of those Mantle signings, no doubt I would have gotten him to sign a card. You also have to realize that many of the people getting Mantle at those shows were people who idolized him when he played and probably thought it was cool to get a card signed. last I’ll just give you two names to research. First is Jeff Morey, someone who actually sent tobacco cards through the mail to get signed but secondly and most importantly was a man named Conrad Anderson. Conrad sent out MASSIVE TTM requests going back to at least the 50’s and maybe earlier. He did that until the 80’s and was considered the first national sports autograph dealer. When I say massive, I mean massive! Easily six figures. I actually have an index card signed by Paddy Livingston that is personalized to Conrad Anderson. At one point there was a pic circulating of a letter or index card telling Me Anderson to stop sending for his autograph as he had signed enough for him. Who was that player? Ty Cobb! There’s actually a pretty fair chance that when you see signed index cards of Jimmie Foxx, Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb, any of those older guys that were still alive in the 59’s and 60’s, there’s a good chance it originated from him. Many of the tougher 50’s and 60’s Topps autographed cards are believed to originate from Mr Anderson’s TTM efforts.
@@Bluejacket66 I think a lot of it has to do with how much prices have increased. It’s crazy how much prices have increased in the last 15 years. It wasn’t that long ago go you could get a signed Mantle Topps card for under $500 pretty easily. I remember seeing ads in SCD for Mantle autographs being sold by show promoters for $5 if you sent your item in. I thought that was high 🤣
I'm glad you brought it up, because when I did I was just labeled as a newbie that doesn't know anything 😂 Operation Bullpen was actually a real thing folks. But hey what do I know
Sports card forgeries have been going on for 50+ years. Like most “indiscretions” in the hobby- they rarely are punished. I’m not saying these cards are forgeries… I just question the quantity of high end autos ON CARDS, that have literally flooded the hobby
I enjoy collecting on-card autos on vintage cards. The main reason why I like them is because of the physical connection to the player touching, looking at and signing the card. I'm quite particular as to what I buy because I am certain that many out there are fakes, even the ones "authenticated" by third-party graders.
Dave we think very similar on autographs. I recently did a video expressing my thoughts on autos. I am a 1990-1993 pack pulled auto guy and I am very picky on my vintage autos. I think they have become a dime a dozen and like you said they dont all look good. Always fun to express our opinions right or wrong it gets are brains thinking. Thanks for sharing your thoughts 🤙🤙
Thanks Dylan, to each their own. If we all collected the same thing there wouldn’t be enough to go around. I just wonder why NOW all these very old auto cards are surfacing
Dave, In the early years I always got autographs on baseballs, but when I met Roy white in 1986 He was gracious enough to sign half a dozen of his Topps cards for me and it started me collecting as many of his cards autographed as I could get, however his cards weren’t worth much and I’m sure I had a dozen of each so it didn’t matter if one was defaced! In the circles that I hung out in many of my friends got cards autographed. Merry Christmas Dave to you and your family!!
Also, as a kid in the 70s and 80s, I had several autographed cards of Mays, Aaron and Koufax. No clue if they were real but I did like the auto on the cards.
I started collecting in the mid 1980s. I remember at that time, if you got a card autographed, it would destroy the value of the card but you had the value of the autograph. I had picked up for five dollars each a 1976 Topps, Gary Carter, a 1977 Topps Brooks Robinson and a 1970 Topps Harmon Killebrew Autographed cards. I recently sent them to PSA DNA, and they all came back authentic. What I’ve started to do is buy mid grade vintage cards and send them to be autographed. Some HOF rookie cards in high grade are out of my price range, but one in good condition with an authentic autograph looks almost as good in my collection.
Aloha Dave ! I have heard people get an auto "in person" at a Show, send it out to get authenticated, and it comes back questionable. What are you supposed to do ? Take a photo with the signer and ask him to smile with your face in the photo ? Ha ! My Dad has 100's of autographs of baseball players from the 1950's that he got at the games. The cool thing about that is they were in uniform, not behind a foldout table signing with a fat blue Sharpie as opposed to a "classic" blue ball point pen. When my Dad got his autographs, the players were having the time of their lives playing the game they love, they were not old and disgruntled at a card Show charging kids money. Happy New Year ! C ya
@Bluejacket66 My Dads Mom threw away all his cards when he moved out. My Dads Collection consists of 200+ Souvenir Programs from the 50's, a dozen pennants and an autograph book with nearly 400 autos in it. My collection is topps cards 1970 to 78. Don't buy sell or grade. Content with our little collection. In the next couple of days I will put out a episode and tell who the autographs are on my Dads 1958 Orioles Score Card. Doby, Maris, and Minnoso are the big names. Happy New Year !
Good points. I had started back in the mid 80s getting autographed cards n did for about 15 years n I remember articles if card's should be autographed or not n the opinion was not to. Now it's the rage. I also remember going to shows with my late dad in the early eighties n getting Jackie Jensen on a 8x12 but don't remember dealers selling autographs on cards.
Great conversation Dave! I met a guy at the National who could sign Mantle’s autograph better than Mantle did! When we were kids it was considered defacing a card to have it written on even if it was an autograph. Mantle signed a ton of stuff and I’m sure some people had cards autographed especially towards the end. The ones that make me scratch my head are the guys that were dead for many years like Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx etc, you would think autographed cards from guys like that should be very rare. Just my opinion of course! 🤷🏻♂️ Merry Christmas to you and your family!
We need more data points to make any significant conclusions. (between 2012 and 2023)I agree the 2012 and 2023 data supports the idea that there are possibly more fakes on the market.
I started collecting in ‘86 and I remember that getting a card autographed was a no-no even then. I guess it would make sense now that signed cards are en vogue, they are coming out of collections to the marketplace. But I’m sure there’s plenty of counterfeits even in those cards. I agree the medium for the auto is important - the aesthetics of the auto and where it is on that medium is important to me. Great video and thought provoking! 🎉
Another "long time collector/dealer" observation I've heard 1000 times is "where were all these super high grade cards 30 or 40 years ago?" One thing I can say for sure is that I have seen only 3 or 4 slabbed Mariano Rivera autos that were fake (1 SGC and 2 or 3 PSA). And I've seen 10s of thousands of them.
I am with you I think autographed baseball cards have very little if any eye appeal. I think the main reason for these cards coming to the market has a large part to do with the age of the people who have owned them. They are probably passing away or have passed and left these cards to their children and during the pandemic,the card prices went thru the roof and they are being sold by these inheritance kids . In fact my collection was giving to my eldest son and he sold a bunch to purchase his house with them so this could play a big roll in this flood of auto vintage cards.
Yep - it's questionable for sure. I was collecting all through the late 80's, early 90's... and it was virtually a completely taboo thing to get any pack released card(s) signed. It was viewed by a large majority as "ruining" the card. Eventually, it absolutely can release the point that the 'bad' will push out the good signatures if the forgers are good enough. Can reach a point that the good ones end up being viewed as questionable, which would be very bad for the hobby.
Was thinking more about 1960s autographed Mantle cards after my previous comment If there’s one highly popular HOFer who could have signed more than expected cards, it’s probably Mantle. I think he lived just long enough to sign cards after the “auto insert” started in 1990 w/ Upper Deck & then Score (who had him under contract before Score Board). Same for Joe D, Ted Williams, etc… It does make sense we see a lot more of his later cards signed than earlier ones. More folks probably had duplicates of later cards due to how many survived “moms throwing them out” in combination with higher production numbers. This still doesn’t speak to the influx of signed 1951 to 1969 Mantle cards at auction compared to even 9 years ago. I fear many of them might be forgeries. We’ll never know. I did look at the PSA registry of signed Mantle cards. Partial PSA Pop grade (take w/ a grain of salt). Didn’t look at BVG 1951 bowman = 29 1952 Topps = 19 1952 bowman = 23 1953 Topps = 57 (seems high) 1953 bowman = 45 (seems high) 1954 bowman = 41 1956 = 45 total (5 white) 1960 = 59 1965 = 51 1966 = 90 1967 = 39 1968 = 73 1969 = 120ish (white & yellow)
There was a guy who famously faked mlb autos. He was caught because he was faking Mark McGwire sigs and everyone kind of knew that McGwire didn’t sign that much. Anyways the same guy faked thousands of Mantle sigs.
Great research on auction activity for autograph cards. Puts things into perspective somewhat. I, personally, think you are right on two points - interest in autos is peaking but there are also a lot of forgeries. I am not an auto collector for that latter reason. I own a few but those where I could see the "whites" of the signer's eyes in front of me. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family, Dave!
As someone who has followed auctions since 1990, These were never a thing and I never saw vintage autos on cards. Like you, I was not at every show or saw all that Mantle et all signed but they were not at shows I was at and not in the major auctions... at all.
In the 1988-1990 years the biggie signers did many shows here in the Chicagoland area..Mantle did his only show here in 1989 during the 1969 Chicago Cubs 20th Reunion show at McCormick Place...I got a lot of stuff autographed by him..Also making the rounds here...Joe DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Sandy Koufax..P S...Everyone knew back in the early 90's when Mantle was really sick his sons had him sign everything but the kitchen sink to sell after his death..
I think it depends on the player and the timeframe that the autograph was obtained. It would have been odd for someone to have Mantle sign a playing days card in the 1980s, but not so odd in the 1950s or 1960s. In the 1950s and 60s kids were pinning their cards to their walls and putting them in their bike spokes. So why wouldn't people also have players write their names on them? I like a good vintage ballpoint pen autograph on a card. Also, who is going to fake a signature on a 1956 Topps Enos Slaughter card?
100 % agree with you Dave , I'm skeptical even on all TTM's autos ! How many were signed by family members ? If i don't get a autograph in person therea no guarantee. Happy Holidays To You & your family Dave !!!
Think it’s a really interesting topic. I’ve only been collecting vintage for 11 years and when I first got into it many dealers and shop owners were still pushing the notion of autos devaluing vintage cards. My opinion would be that cards have always been the most accessible medium for in person autographs especially for kids. And when Mantle started popularizing the signings at the card show circuit back in the 80s that’s when more vintage cards started getting signed. While it wasn’t the majority of fans and collectors at first, that number has grown overtime as it has become less and less taboo. So for guys who lived to atleast the 90s I don’t fear authentication when it’s got the proper provenance and certification. But guys who played and died before the 80s signing on cards I agree we should all tread more lightly (not that I could afford most of those anyway haha)
I am an everything collector mostly vintage pre war post war graded cards and sets but also collecting autograph items- balls, cards , programs checks even game used bats as I love it all . Over the last 20 plus years I have been putting a 1958 Topps baseball autographed set together which at this point is up to 462 different autographed cards including all stars except Clemente which I have only seen one over the years pricey then much too pricey now. I obtained many at the National with trusted autograph dealers. This set is perfect for getting autographs but I would not say that most of the cards autographed are gradable shape but the autograph was to me the most important part of the card. Actually though pricey, the stars are easier to get than some of the common players that died early which makes the set difficult to complete. One of the more desirable cards is Roger Maris rookie which my card is graded a 5 and auto authentic but he signed a lot.. Anyway I believe desirability in the hobby has boomed from the emphasis of autographed cards being the major pulls when opening packs. That is what the newer collectors are buying and it makes sense as they get into vintage cards that it would be nice to have one autographed. Rookie autographed vintage cards have become a hot item and I guess ones who have collected them over the years are selling with the high prices. Interesting change in the hobby.
So kids/ people were getting their cards autographed in the 50s and 60s…. Where? I don’t doubt the vintage auto market in general. It just seems very very odd that so many are popping up
@@Bluejacket66 They would send through the mail as collectors do today. No doubt there are a lot of bad autographs and experts do make mistakes. The only way you know if it good if you are there when they sign. I am sure you have seen the Uncle Jimmy collection , he sent his Goudey cards through the mail. Amazing!
I enjoy and collect playing days cards signed by Hank Greenberg but really love the cards that were signed during his playing days.....not the same to me to have a 60 year old card signed last week by the player even though they still command a premium price....think a lot is that people see the prices they bring and they sell cards that grandpa had signed as a kid that are sitting in a drawer....I have seen a few Hank signatures that look fake to me but not a lot yet....a popular player like Mantle would bring out the forgeries in much higher amounts of course.....
@@Bluejacket66 oh they are very tough but the chase is what is so exciting...I have been collecting him for 15 years or so and have maybe 4 or 5 cards including a 39 Playball and a 40 Playball I just picked up....plus many others on photos,ticket stubs, autograph album pages, menu's, postcards etc.....
I'm only 6 minutes in but have to address something you mentioned regarding the 80+ signed vintage cards with Heritage. There was a large, original owner collection of signed cards consigned recently from Florida I believe. There has been some sharing of these cards on Instagram and other mediums. I recall specifically a 49 Bowman Jackie Robinson and a 49 Bowman Campanella pre accident. I'll keep watching but wanted to chime in now with that info.
A lot coming to market over the last several years. Just seems odd. I think many finds are legit. It seems ….unlikely… that grown men were bringing baseball cards to the ballpark to be signed ( Ruth, Gehrig, foxx etc). Idk
Dave, to give a quick opinion on the subject, I’d say that the answer is All The Above. Some is bound to be fraudulent autographs. Just like on any other medium, someone in the clubhouse signed the item but, not the star in question. Also when demand is up, those who see a profit motive will move to take advantage of the situation by fraudulently signing cards or by selling their legitimate autographs. Also, I’ve seen a lot of cards being signed at shows by the still living players. Great video.
Interesting analysis. Signed cards were definitely a huge no-no when i started collecting in the 80s, but it never sat right with me. I remember wanting to get my Rickey Henderson RC signed as a kid, although I was almost afraid to admit it to anyone at the time.
I have collected off and on since the 80s. I am not an autograph card guy myself and it was not until the end of the 90s and into this century that people really started having players autograph cards. I myself remember hearing a.story during that time frame of a player (may have been Jordan) refuse to sign his rookie card because he viewed it as defacing the card.
In general I’m highly skeptical of most autographs. Main reason I don’t collect autographed cards. I always feel like I’m just buying a beat up card that someone faked an auto on. Not for me.
I dont like how they make exceptions on autos not defacing the card, yet any other 'pen' marks reduce grade....ive never liked altering the card or comic, etc... Merry Christmas
I started collecting cards in 1980 and some auto TTM. I sent 3x5 index cards or odd ball baseball cards that would increase the value of the card. Overall rule was never send anything you didn't mind loosing in the mail. High end cards was a big no no. I can see caution with a lot of expensive signed cards coming out of the wood works.
