Atheism and Christianity: A Conversation | John Lennox & Michael Tooley 

God Bless you for telling the Truth.

Praise be to God...!!! Extremely happy for you.. and that is one of the absolutely beautiful things about God.. I’m a total stranger to you.. I don’t know you and you don’t know me from the man who just flew over from another country that he ahas never left his entire life and came to your home town market for the first time... Jesus Christ is the only way and if you devote yourself to him you will as have a sense of true peace in your life..

Uuupuu

@@melodyciamarra I don’t understand your reply. I do say that I hope you have researched, then asked that mysterious “God” that here are people discussing to let you know in your heart the truth. That you could not deny Him even if you try. For I know this Amazing God. Has my life been without difficulties since I told Him my life was His? I told Him I would sell all I own and move around the world to serve Him if that is what He wished. I meant it. Did I then stop living in my life as I wished? No. Did that stop my belief that He alone is the God of this universe? No. But if I am willing to turn to Him daily He will always be there. He alone is worthy of my praise. He alone can truly comfort me, answer all my prayers according to His Will, not mine. I am not worthy to even speak His name. But I ask the blessing of speaking His name. Of serving Him no matter the cost to me. I pray for every soul alive this day and to be born before His glorious return to truly know Him. I am no theologian. I just know a God that has blessed me. I know a loving God. I hear “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess” and I have to hope that that includes everyone. But I know my God and trust Him. Let us all serve Him thus all of His Creation in whatever way He desires and empowers us to serve. God you ll!

9:22

How can you thank God, if there's not such thing as God?

@@acortes7771 there is a God though. His name is Jesus the Christ

He seems like a sweet man that wishes everyone well...except gays, women and people that don't conform to the ideals of the Bible, but if you're not one of those groups, he would be delightful company.

@@acortes7771 You are proof of IT.

You are proof of IT

Very well spoken.

But delusional. I can't stand the man.

@@petermetcalfe5280 You should get some help for your psychological projection.

James Dare true lol

bltorioles Are you still an atheist?

Love John, up there with JBP in my book

bltorioles And 2 years later, your comments really put a smile on my face.

bltorioles if you like this, check out Peter Rollins

@nick b He's a fraud.

Marcus O'Ruiari a great man

Right...

It's the uh's that get me....

I imagine it's a bit like a stutter or maybe a nervous tic.

I know right!

@@andys3035 right!?

@@lukesalazar9283 That's a question, right?

Hehehe! My brother Molay...can't helped but smile. It's amazing to me. For I am not alone. Luv ya brother!

Maybe rethink his version of reality... The reality is that God exists and science has debunked evolution.

Finally!!!!

+JoM80 How can you prove God is not just a figment of your imagination?

+atam mardes We can't. So if he is then we're going to look pretty stupid, but at the same time nobody will exist to look stupid. However, if God exists, then the atheists are the ones who are in trouble

If God exists, theists (not atheists) are the ones who are in trouble. Because theists are insulting God by assuming God is so unjust and unfair that punishes atheists when God knows he has not provided any evidence for his existence. God loves atheists because atheists have the courage to not believe in him based on bad evidences and contrived miracle stories like virgin birth, resurrection, and walking on water.

atam mardes God loves everyone equally of course. Let's have a story. Let's say you have a son. Now, your son has just gone through his teenage years and is moving out for the first time. You have only ever shown him support, praise and appreciation. He comes of age and immediately wants to move out because he hates you. Do you force him to stay out of your love for him?

Religion business has been fooling you with these types of bad examples and analogies. There is no evidence for any God.

Lol same

ALSO, how many times did he also say "uh"

The scripture isn't relevant, you don't get to start with the assumption that the bible is divinely inspired and that your god exists, you need to demonstrate those things.

And on the first day there was light. Where did it come from?

Yeah that argument didn't work so well on my math teacher in high school. "Why do we have to come to class the last day of school since we don't really do anything" - because then we'd have the same issue of "not doing anything" on the day before that. We end up in an infinite regression until the amount becomes infinitely small or non-existent. Good "eye" there.

This reminds me my brother. You are moses and the other individual is the king of Egypt. Your words is your world, my brothers and sisters. When we confess with our mouths. It shall come to pass.

A lot of Tooley's atheism seems to be based on "God doesn't do what I want Him to do, so He must not exist."

I still don't see how that would prevent us from assessing which world would be more evil. So in that case we could say that one world isn't as evil as the other and that it is more likely that the evil is justified i the world where punching is the most evil. The logical conclusion of this argument is that one could literally live in a hell world and would be unable to say such a world is less likely to have justifiable evil than the world that we happen to actually live in. That seems too absurd for me.

If you think God should limit our ability to do evil then you’re right, we’d be hearing the same complaint about the evil done within those parameters. But what’s worse, now you have to decide what levels of evil you’ll accept, and thus the amount of suffering you think we should accept. How much suffering is okay? Which manifestations of suffering are we cool about and which are problematic? Whose suffering can be tolerated and whose can’t? It’s such a terrible argument that I’d expect it from a new atheist type, not a distinguished philosopher.

I agree.

Here here well said bud.

***** I think your argument is valid with some theist not all. I do not think you get what I am saying, I am aware that evil is supposed to be a problem for God's existence but this is a miss understanding of what evil itself denotes. The problem of evil is worst for an atheist certainly since there is no standard you can claim other than that of your own, which turns into might makes right, which is not morality but rather the strength of those who hold to certain preferences forcing their preferences through numbers and strength on those with different views. In the Christian worldview the standard is Love. So we as Christians would say Love is built into the fabric of reality itself, and our actions are accountable to this standard. When we fail to love in an action we have done evil.

_"The fact we all know evil and good to be just as real as gravity and time is evidence we all know God exist."_ It's actually a fact that that isn't a fact. And even if it was true that everyone knew "good" and "evil" to be real things it still would not be evidence that "we all know God exist".

Houston Davis oughts only exist if there is a way things ought to be, and if there is a way things ought to be there is a plan to reality and plans have planners. Everyone knows God exist, they suppress the truth. You know a higher power is responsible for the beauty we see, the life we have, the conscious we have the love we have. Your level of understanding of the creator may not be as well informed as others but you are not dumb enough to believe that everything came from nothing and then the universe without any rhyme or reason became aware of itself through material processes which gave rise to non material entities like consciousness, mathematics, universal laws of logic.

Joshua Hults I feel like I could just say there simply are no objective "oughts" or "shoulds" or "moral values & duties" and be done.... Matter has been shown to come into existence from empty space. Brains (made of purely matter) give rise to the epiphenomenon of consciousness which then is able discern mathematics and universal laws of logic (which are just descriptive of how our physical universe is). And there is *objectively* no reason to think your God even exist. Lots of reasons to think it doesn't though.

***** fear of God is beginning of wisdom. Take the Jesus Challenge and join or rejoin the Christian army.

***** Because you are infested with the virus ( because Adam and Eve) and your thinking has been altered. God is helping you to see the reality.

***** Okay, lets go to science and hit Darwinism. And I will show you the handy work of God. Read this carefully a few times because it is intense. It is written simply r, and easy to understand.

***** *NEWEST BOMBSHELL* ...*NEW PROOF* - *WHY DARWINIAN MACRO EVOLUTION NEVER HAPPENED?* *EVOLUTION DEBUNKED!* *PROOF of a New Universe and a New Dimension revealed* Failure to Launch! Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes (UBTA) of Living Beings Killed the Evolutionary Theory! *This Doctrine tackles the fantastically complex behavioral traits and attributes of all living beings. How in the world these unorthodox behavioral traits and attributes ended up in the super complex physiological beings? Is this a sign for intelligent design (ID) or just a lucky coincidence (LC) *. *Can we know?* Question: *Suppose I supplied you with sugar, yeast, flour, vanilla extract, eggs, milk , salt and asked you to make a chocolate cake out of these supplies. Can you do it? Can it be done. According to the Darwinian Evolution Theory , the answer is a YES. Anything is possible if you give her enough time to generate the results ! _This is a super condensed version of the doctrine._ New Words: (UBTA)= Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes of living Species. X Dimensional = Multi Dimensional or belonging to more than one dimension. X Dimension = Another Dimension *HERMAN HALICI* - *Solid Universe Doctrine:* Please read it more than once. 1) Universe can't change nor alter her laws, order, and logic in order to create a non living, nor living system. Darwinian natural selection which is counted as part of our universe, breaks bunch of universal laws, order and logic in order to generate UBTAs of the living species. Until now we have never observed any particle or system of our universe ( atoms, protons, nebula, star systems, planetary systems or anything) bending, breaking, nor defying our Universal laws, order and logic. We only observe this phenomenon here on Earth. Our universe is solid as gold. (You will always get a Kosher meal from a Kosher Deli) 2) Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes (UBTAs) of animals, plants, bacteria, viruses, are not compatible with Universal laws, order and logic. ( These attributes include hiding, hunting, mothering, trapping, camouflaging, cheating, lying, sneaking, envying, killing, bullying, destroying, playing possum, manipulating , hating , dis-courting, leeching , and more... 100+) For example: We have never observed a star hiding and hunting another star(s) or planet(s). We have never observed any star bullying a planet in order to lure her into his system. These are intellectual , non physical, emotional and spiritual traits and qualities. Although administered by the living beings biologically, they defy the universal laws, order and logic. Since UBTAs are unstable and irrational concepts to exist in our universe, even the idea of them becomes illogical and impossible to comprehend. For example: Can a blind man dream about a blue rose? Of course NOT because this concept does not even exist in the blind man's world. Can you get *Color Red* by mixing the other colors together? Of course Not. Red is a primary color. Can't be generated from other colors. Our universe has her limitations and capabilities. She is able to generate new systems, stars, and planets regularly. But she can't generate anything that is conceptual or non material. Therefore *What Universe does not have, it can't select* and *Something can't be selected by nature, if that particular item doesn't exist in our universe*. Even a slight violation of her laws means a chain reaction that would totally destroy all our universe. She would literally collapse or blow up. Since our universe is still standing, that means nothing has violated her laws, order and logic . 3) Humans on the other hand pose even deeper problems for Darwinian macro evolution. Humans posses two kind of attributes: Positive and Negative. As positive they display.... love, self sacrifice, efficiency, faith, joyfulness, humbleness, devotion, gratefulness, loyalty, generosity...and much more . As negative they display...arrogance, carelessness, lying, cheating, being manipulative, jealousy, thoughtlessness, moodiness, fearfulness, cowardliness, being vengeful, being stubborn... and much more. These are unstable and unsustainable attributes . They never existed and don't exist in our Universe. *Nothing outside our blue planet, I mean nothing, displays these traits and attributes*. These are intellectual , non physical, emotional and spiritual, behavioral concepts, traits and qualities. They don't have any physical shape nor substance. They are generated by human brain with thought process. But where did these unorthodox behaviors and attributes come from? If the concept of it does not exist and breaks all the laws of the universe , how did they ended up inside the living beings. Is it possible to generate something, from non existing concepts and material? Where did they come from? 4) These UBTAs could not have originated from our three dimensional Universe, because they bend and break all her known laws. These fantastically radical UBTAs are the evidence of another Dimension and Universe with different set of laws, order and logic. That is the reason we never observed any of the UBTAs outside of our planet. 5) Whoever or whatever super force introduced these UBTAs, is able to travel within the different Dimension and Universe, and able to create , design species with awesome and super complex UBTAs while fine tuning the whole Earth and Star Systems to house them . ( Above the law) *CONCLUSION* Unorthodox Behavioral Traits and Attributes (UBTA) of all living species are deadly blow to Darwinian Evolution. More we research, more we discover that Darwinian Evolution could not have happened by natural selection and blind chance. Biggest obstacle is, they can't be generated by nature. In order to generate these UBTAs the Universe has to break,defy, and alter her laws. This could not be done by our universe. Universe can't pass her limitations. YES, changes and developments has happened to the living beings, but evidence shows that they were inserted and designed by another force, a lot bigger force that came from outside of our Universe and Dimension. UBTAs are definitely, not the product of blind and powerless natural selection. Had life started by some chemical accident, then our new lifeforms would have been totally *ROBOTIC and LAW & ORDER ORIENTED BEINGS OR SYSTEMS in nature*. But to our surprise , just the opposite of this has happened. At the end of the story, we end up with " Beings with fantastic traits and attributes, that totally defy the *LAW, ORDER, AND UNIVERSAL LOGIC*. Since Universe does not have tools and material to generate these UBTAs, then where did these fantastic , unorthodox traits come from? Are we then a product of an intelligent designer or a super force? Data shows that the answer is a big *"YES"*. This proves that there are other dimension(s) and universe(s) are out there. I believe we are the first X Dimensional beings ever. Our earth is a very special place. She is a gateway or portal to X Dimension and Universe . As one Chinese proverb states" *May you live in interesting times*" . Your comments or questions welcomed. Cheers

***** This doctrine crushes evolution into pieces.

A typical Irishman. Just like the Americans. Believe in the fairy at the bottom of the garden.

No the argument from evil is that naturalism and evolutionary biology are much much better explanations for why suffering occurs than a benevolent all powerful god. Suffering is what you get if you live in an indifferent universe where life is a struggle to overcome challenges from the environment and other animals.

God Bless you too & YES, GOD is good, all the time! 😊🙌☺️🙏💖

If anything, science makes God less likely to exist. Not because we can disprove an all-powerful god through science, but because we can disprove the stories in the Bible, and we learn how the religion itself can be exploited by governments or organisations to further their agenda in this life, the only one we have any evidence for. The Bible has a lot of horrible stories in it, and the morals in it is outdated and way below our current standards, so even there we can see that there is no merciful, good God. Only one that allows for terrible crimes and suffering for no reason. Perhaps we should be glad he's most likely fantasy?

@@tankbuggeru Science is methods for dealing with physical creation without useless opinions and conclusions. Your opinions and conclusions define God down. If you were to list some of the lifestyles you support, we would know why you have to be anti-God. Science does not disprove God, people like you do.

tankbuggeru huh? Not even close. You have digital code in your DNA...that’s called information, and serves a purpose of function. It’s literally just like digital code. And the universe is rational..mathematical..based on our uniform & repeated experiences..the only thing capable of offering mathematical laws & providing textual information...is an immaterial mind. It’s pretty straightforward there- science and experience. You’re regurgitating ops arguments...but remember...just as you say “science can prove what the Bible says didn’t happen.”, you neglect that science got egg on their face after centuries of claiming the universe was stagnant and “all there ever was.” The Big Bang Theory proved a beginning to the universe- one of the two who discovered the background radiation claimed it’s exactly what he would’ve expected to find based on the Bible as a whole. This is just science, experience, and fact...I don’t know why that’s so hard to receive. The Bible claims baptism is how you receive, and Christ is the light...and the only place in our world where we see light in a vacuum is on water (Einstein special relativity)...you’re just wrong. Read the Bible...stop listening to people who tell you about it. Science consistently confirms the Bible....it’s amazing. After being proven wrong about the stagnant universe after centuries of Aristotleism(once thought you be a science, proved to be a religious zealot following since it was wrong)...atheistic scientists have somehow taken the beginning of the universe...something clearly claimed by the Bible and science made its bed in the other trench...and pretended like it’s proven them correctly. They have no answers...they have “maybes” God is an answer...you can accept it or reject...but it doesn’t change the final value

And by the way...it’s not like “oh there’s information so yay!! God.” It’s like “dang...a Nobel prize winning, WW2 code-cracking scientist named Crick found literal digital code in our DNA which is the instructions for life...and the Bible literally says ‘in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God’....like thousands of years before we learned plumbing systems”. It’s an affirmative case for...and all people can give me In response is “well maybe it’s this... science will find out after we’re dead”...wrong. You’re going to find out after you die. One way or the other

Tooley in his opening statement tells of being raised in a Christian home. He knows how to act.

A compulsory word in his speech.

I love the invisible pink dragon in my garage.

right.....lol

I sort of agree, but I think to get into deep discussion about whether or not something as ominous as a deity exists, you have to define the deity first. That will almost always ascribe it to a particular religion. But I see what you mean, yes.

In fiction, yes. In reality, he either chooses to hide or he doesn't exist.

You can't beat something that doesn't exist.

Bro God can beat anything, including fools who don't believe in His ostensible existence

Bro God can beat anybody, including fools who doubt His ostensible existence

@@solomonx2061 The iinvisible pink dragon in my garage can beat on god. Really go back to kindergarten.

You can't be an expert in all the many thousands of fantasies that people have dreamt up. And it is really irrelevant, given there are no replicable observations that support any of them and none of them make any useful predictions.

Tooley and others have responded to Plantinga's ontological argument. Even Plantinga, if I recall correctly, would not say his argument is sound. I doubt he would say it is unsound, but actually knowing the premises are true is problematic. Tooley and others question Plantinga's premises. For example some question the coherence of maximal greatness, some attack the premise that God is possible, and others attack the modal conditional premise.

Christian "love" takes many forms, such as the Spanish inquisition and Northern Ireland.

@@roqsteady5290 indeed LANGUAGE given and LANGUAGE understood. Bring more like you beloved to the kingdom of God and its righteousness. Nothing is wasted but will increase beyond measured. Luv ya

Right?

Thank god for small mercies

I think adding 'right' is a Toronto(?) thing, not nervousness. But I agree, it's distracting.

To be born good. But how is this relevant?

“Better” is not applicable because neither of these two ideas are true.

True, I think he let Lennox get away with all kinds of things. It would be cool seeing him debate Matt Dillahunty. I doubt very much Dawkins would be afraid to debate Craig, since everything he's got is Kalam, that he shoves a lot of other things into to prove the christian god. Too bad Craig won't debate Matt, but I guess he's smart enough not to.

One of the very few who speaks from his heart..a greay guy

This channel is a Christian echo chamber, so no it doesn't favour atheism.

There's no proof the DNA molecule came about by a natural unguided process, that code has no coder, that assertion can be dismissed as well, there's no proof.....

Servent of Christ So you agree that the character god can be as easily dismissed....

Richard Platt Lol you are real smart aren’t you? They are saying that DNA IS proof of God. LOL

Do you have proof that what you are asserting is true?

@@michaelwill7811 I am not the one making the initial assertion in the video.

What drugs did you take?

You have obviously never read the Bible and if so you had zero understanding

Did you have any luck finding it? I would like to see/hear it.

Indeed! The discussion was structured to give Mr Tooley the last word on practically every point! Obviously Mr Lennox had responses to Mr Tooley's allegations but he often wasn't allowed to voice them. The discussion would have been more enlightening for all with more give and take--and obviously if Mr Lennox had been allowed to make a closing statement as well.

77Catguy I too was shocked that John Lennox was not allowed to give a closing statement. The moderator even said, "We are going to invite our participants to make closing statements. I don't know who would like to go first?" John Lennox graciously allowed Mr. Tooley to go first with his closing statement, then was not allowed to give his closing statement! I have never seen any debate end is such an unbelievably biased way.

Couldn't agree any further with u. And it's interesting how john lennox said he had read the same book which had the opposite effect on him. I am at a point in my life where I keep challenging my Christian worldview and the more I read atheistic books the more my trust in Christ is strengthened.

dandorf10 Yes, indeed! That is why it's so heartbreaking to hear of these kids who grow up in church and after reading one book or hearing one college professor challenge their views, they just immediately succumb to it. What on earth are we teaching people - again, especially kids - in church, that they are this unprepared for any challenge?

I was a christian until I was 25, and found out I spent so much effort in making excuses and imagining this complicated God creature with an elaborate plan, and put logic aside. I realized that there actually is very little reason to belive in God. I didn't need proof that he is false, just the lack of evidence that he is real.

Just because I haven't found reasons for beleiving in the invisible pink dragon in my garage doesn't mean there are no reasons. As a last resort, there is always faith.

Absolutely, yes heavenly legions for sure!

That is a great question.

***** What's your opinion.

hmmm there are christians who are depressed and there are non christians who are not depressed. Now this may sound harsh, but I was talking about this with someone the other day and they suggested that our feelings are very subjective, lets put our feelings aside for a second and lets look at what the truth is. Now if you are a naturalistic atheist, I am sorry If I come across rude or condescending, Now if there is no God then life is ultimately purposeless and every action we are to make has no real meaning or significance behind it, and human life has no real value. Now in the christian worldview, we believe there is a god that loves us immensely, each and every single person has the image of God on them and they have immense value, we were ruined by sin yet God bought us back with his one and only son. so if you're a depressed christian, thats how you feel but the truth is is that you have immeasurable value and each and every person has the image of God on them. if you are a happy naturalistic atheist, thats how you feel but the truth is, is that all life has absolutely no real significance what so ever. Im not saying that atheists cant be happy, but I am saying that though this is how we feel, but what is the truth behind the worldview. Im obviously a christian and I believe it to be the truth, and there are times where I feel really really down, its okay to cry because this is a painful world we live in, but though I may feel depressed, what is actually the truth?

Murri16 Excellent and thoughtful comment!

Murri16 Remember depression can be attributable to different things, such as loss, or pain at the suffering in this world and also lack of the required chemicals in the brain to make serotonin etc. so yes people of any persuasion can experience depression, just as anyone can develop physical illness and disease. Humanity chooses its own truth. We are free to look for the purpose of our lives and often in our darkest hours we find it. As a Christian you can compare Christianity to other prominent faiths in the world and the atheist view. No one is perfect and carrying out "ritualistic duties" won't cut it. Faith is a matter of the heart. As a Christian you can compare Christianity to other prominent faiths in the world, The truth is not comfortable, but it never changes.

First you have to demonstrate that god exists, then that god really does interact with humans, because as it stands we have only the evidence of Christians, who already beleived in the first place.

Matt, his people from sin that Matthew is describing is not the Jewish people only, who ever puts his trust in Jesus automatically are his people, so Lennox quote is right , your interpretation of Matthew is wrong.

The longing and emptiness that you may feel is the longing for God