Aubrey Matshiqi & Muzi Sikhakhane (Part 2/2): ANC Hypocrisy? | A More Just Future 

One biggest lesson from this interview has to be one: The large majority of us don't have a voice,we are reminded every day of how it can go wrong or how it actually went wrong(Zimbabwe as an example).we are told we need to appreciate the bad we have because we don't know what the alternative will be. We are told a lot about the economy that will collapse but the question is who's economy, because the only people benefitting from it are the ones defending.

Part 2 is here! 😁🔥

If we had credible news channels in this country Sizwe would have a show on TV!

The problem is our education system. We're not taught critical thinking...

It is time to change the status quo for the benefit of all citizens. Thank you for a very informative and enlightening session.

"The revolution will not be in English!!!" That part about English sums it all up. The problem here is language. English and its limitations has limited our ability to think and impacts our capacity to understand.

My elders I wish my ears will never forget what you are teaching today we are listening and we appreciate you and my brother Sizwe thank you

Well done Sizwe, that was a powerful and refreshing conversation. I never thought anyone can ever be so articulate on any media, about this elephant in the room.

One of the best interview I have ever seen. Truly authentic black voices and inspiring intellectual giants.

What a lecture. I can listen to you guys anytime. Very thought provoking

Thank you bra Sizwe, kudala ngiyilindile. What a refreshing discussion by Gogo and one of the finest advocate.

Sizwe please man you and your team need to bring them back for more hours 😭😭. We need this brains and wisdom at this time and error in our lifetime. We'll done!!!

Great content Sizwe. Keep going!

Thanks Sizwe.your guests have always been revolutionary and independent thinkers.i know because they were both my teachers in high school who,against the norms and prescriptions of the education system that time,taught me how to think as opposed to what to think.salute my heroes .

So powerful. Well articulated. Thank you Sir s...

A very important conversation, South Africa need to take a moment back to introspect and speak freely about the issues left by apartheid and colonisers, If it means we must rewrite the constitution let it be done. The future generation will suffer even more if nothing changes.

One of the biggest examples of a colonial legacy being seen in a "supposed" African system is the South African parliament. Every time I tune in to Parliament and hear "the honorable minister", "On a point of order", "deputy speaker", etc., the identical language still used in the British Parliament today, I realize we are still very much colonized.

I am refreshed with your thought provoking engagement. I hope we can move away from the known to the unknown.

Indeed we need more of these conversations based on truth. It is only with these unpolluted minds that at the verge of despair, some of us get encouragement. Keep up the good work Sizwe. U make us proud!

Sizwe thanks my brother, these two wise men are what south Africa wants they should be on air on radios televisions on daily basis for they are what we should listen to day in day out. They speak truth. Political freedom is no freedom at all. I so wish Sizwe you can have an interview with ordinary people one day people with no advanced education but brains that are bright enough to can debate such issues, people from the streets, informal settlements rural areas people who know for sure that this country is not free, people who know what it means to be landless, foodless and hopeless, people who are filled with anger of being told that they live in the free country but they don't even know what that means.

Thank you for this discussion,it proves to us that we're not insane and that it truly is not yet uhuru for us,the masses of SA.

We need to tap into knowledge of these great guys, but unfortunately they are inaccessible to the ordinary masses

Small minds discuss people…like those discussing Lindiwe Sisulu. Great minds discuss ideas and in this case, two great elders and a young thinker discuss issues raised in Lindiwe Sisulu’s article; not Lindiwe Sisulu. The views of these 3 great minds give us hope for a better South Afrika…thanks Sizwe for engaging these two sober Elders who are fearless on your platform. ✊🏿✊🏿✊🏿

Adv didn't hold back any punches, Gogo Aubrey also laying down the wisdom nicely 👀👀 thanks Dr sizwe..

What an awesome and enriching discussion....incredible!!! Thank you Sizwe

Thank you @Sizwe for Part 2. It is a very sobering discussion.

👏 👏 👏 I can't get enough of these 2 giants, please Mpofu whip them with another invitation bro.

Thank you son much 👌👌. I HAD to listen to this twice

Great minds, siyabonga Sizwe for putting this together.

Great minds , critical conversations.

Thought provoking, great content!

About time ⏲ 👏, beeeeeeeeen waiting. Thank you Sizwe

"Who are defending the constitution? "

It's always great to hear and watch such conversations. It opens up our minds, it's so unfortunate that such content doesn't get viewership as it supposed to. Our fellow brothers are watching Big brothers and other useless Tv shows.

Gooday sizwe can you please re invite these great elders again to further unpack these issues we are faced with in our times .you know it's very dis heartening for me and sometimes I feel I'm mad for our leaders not to see the mistakes in the constitution that needs to be fixed .the notion that south Africa is for all who live in it kills me a d I ask but why the fighting and blood that was spilled by our ancestors to agree to that .I think as the constitution is dynamic it needs to be revisited tomeously so that it can become relevant .with you sizwe inviting these two brilliant minds you're a source of inspiration may god bless you so you're not silenced by the power full

Adv Sikhakhane, Respect to you Sir. 👏🏿 telling it like it is.

Thanks for this platform and these interviews Sizwe. #Danko #Ayeye

Wow!! A robust debate I just watched very inspiring n insightful

Wow,the content here is massive and highly informative. It makes you ask yourself some serious questions.

"This constitution defends the privileged " "Everybody to engage with the good constitution we have". 🥺🥺🥺

Wise words from great minds 👌

Indeed. You cannot solve the problem, if did not identify it. From known to the unknown... Thank you!

Sizwe please invite one of the constitutional judges regarding Lindiwe's views, and Zondo's response to it.

Refreshing, illuminating, sober and balanced. Three minds displaying immense intellect and insight. I have listened to ntate Aubrey and ntate Muzi on SMWX. To have both on the same show is sheer brilliance!

Thank you Sizwe for this inciteful discussion even your choice of the panelist, it is like you have also graduated from baba Aubrey School - "Ukushaya amathambo". I have to say that I usually listen to your podcast especially where you host Adv. Skhakhane, a gifted individual. I want to draw you and your panelist especially the Advocate. SC to what he said in the pre-amble of your discussion two years ago titled -Adv Muzi Sikhakhane: "Sikhakhane Report" | Land and the Constitution | PABASA. In the pre-amble what the Advocate states clearly his perspective and I am afraid the minister took it from there and blended it with some perspective from other intellectuals. What I want to ask is that, I would love to hear what the Advocate and baba Umatshiqi could say about that relationship in the two narratives.

2 of the best minds in the entire country

Absolutely brilliance at its best cause here..

Very Profound discussion wow. Vuka Muntu Omnyama

Yoh I've been waiting 😭😭😭

A peaceful revolution is possible through Bitcoin since it separates Government from money. Great discussion as always.. and yes we need more.

So insightful!

I have lots of thoughts on this conversation some of which I have expanded on below. All in all I found this conversation very interesting. You were right, it did answer some of my questions from the first part. Thank you Sizwe! Now on to a few thoughts. Please excuse all the "(...)". I suspect that for what Matshiqi refers to as "white magnanimity" to "kick in" (or at least be expanded on enough) to reduce white resistance to social-economic change so it can happen, it will likely need to be shown that such change will help ensure that the continued existence of a modern society can be maintained (or even enhanced). I often read or hear complaints (often with examples, and often cloaked in distressingly racist rhetoric) that such transformation in Africa has resulted in the undermining of the foundation on which modern society (non-arbitrary rule of law, reliable municipal services, accountable government) is built. This fear of loosing modernity seems to be a long running, poorly understood, and powerful driving force. If that can be achieved, that such transformation will not undermine modernity, then it will likely be much easier to achieve the type of extensive transformation advocated for here. I suspect that this is a difficult and tricky subject as people don't know how to talk about it which is why it is not discussed. Sikhakhane's vision of "society in general rising up against this state [and] system" to "correct the short comings of this political settlement" is interesting to me as it seems to indicate an exasperation with government (specifically the ANC) and possibly even a surprising (to me at least) libertarian streak. Although I guess that Sikhakhane would likely say that I have interpreted him wrongly and that he has no such libertarian inclinations. The culture conversation in the "just order" section was very interesting to me as it reminded me of the conversations I have read from East Asian countries about their struggles to, what they call, industrialise. Which in turn reminds me of what the late Qing Dynasty government official -Yan Fu (严复)- in charge of modernising China at the time said after the failure of the first Chinese modernisation effort. That "Western learning has the function and essence particular to Western learning" that was distinct from Chinese learning and culture and, therefore, that critical thinking and virtuous institutions are very important. As for the rest of defining 'what a just order is,' other than agreeing that the status quo is unjust and bad I still don't know what the just society looks like that is needed beyond the over simplistic plateaued of land redistribution and economic transformation. I am sure there is more to it than that? I assume it also includes a corruption free society, but if that is the case then why isn't it discussed here especially given the current extent of state corruption that steals from the poor and hobbles government ability? This seems like a glaring weakness in this dialogue. I agree with Sikhakhane's opinion that unless we fix the unjust reality we live in "we are stilling on a civil war waiting to happen" although I think that there is no guarantee that it will happen.

Wonderful discussion, please arrange professor Lwazi lushaba to give his perspective on this discourse.

Thank You SMWX

To you Sizwe, problems should be sorted now, while it can be done verbally, the comforts we're exposed to now, will only be permanent if we push for radical economic transformation, coz "One day the poor will have nothing to eat, but the rich".

that was so short. plzz bring them back

Plato's Rebublic explains the topic of governance way clearer. Read that book to know why government is detrimental to the socie2.

While there is certainly just cause to agitate for critical thinking, it would be equally important to distinguish it from specious thinking - which many will gladly pretend is some form of critical engagement. In this era where people do not read much but imagine themselves original thinkers, ideas hinged on social democracy can just as well be appropriated by right-wing elements (a point that has been hinted at in the discussion). My fear then becomes that on the back of noble ideas, dubious characters find space to propagate their agendas.

The discourse is indeed interesting. What I find interesting to all the discussions pertaining to African values and cultures, particularly in Azania, is the question of what is stopping us to live these values? For example, why can't we all decide for one year, not to wear anything made from non-African raw materials and machinery; let us all wear our animal skins and bring down the white economy? The problem is that we do not have the political will to make the necessary changes. We want to drive cars produced by companies owned by our oppressors and expect to beat them economically. Our leaders talk about socialism and transforming the economic system they don't seem to understand when in actuality, they live like capitalists themselves. We must demonstrate our belief systems through day-to-day activities, even with our own resources.

Great minds. Great dialogue. Refreshing.

28:55 Yoh really appreciate the point uBaba Sikhakhane brought up here...

Great content. When you inviting the Great Bonang Mohale!!

Gogo Aubz asked what must kick in ?? It has already happened 2021 The 1st kick...the 1st kick happened July 2021 the people kicked off "Mandela day" off the calender and the people took to the streets . The revolution will definitely not be in English ....Zikhalile zisazokhala malenga Maningi

Mr Mpofo uphethe izinjulo zeqiso namuhla

Great conversation and some of the thoughts here are what we are missing in the popular space. I've been following your conversations with Mr Aubrey Mashiqi and I always find him insightful, but I am very impressed by the advocate and his wisdom too. I have many thoughts but I'll share just two. 1. The point about change is important. Systems in formerly colonized countries were designed by the vicitors and were/are oppressive, and when so called freedom is attained, instead of overhauling those systems, the so-called liberators, want to alter them and put the proverbial nose-ring on a pig. They evolve instead of revolutionarising systems. You need to dismantle a system you fought against and create a new one. I think that didn't happen in SA hence the Constitution that appears to favour the previous system and hence continued poverty. Corruption nothwistanding of course. 2. On the issue about critical thinking. Humans for millenia have a history of not wanting to take accountability for their actions. And so we turn to outsource our thinking to other people. On matters like the ones raised by Sisulu, we then wait for the thinkers to whom we outsourced our thinking and once they speak, then that becomes our truth and reality. If their thinking turns to be wrong, we belive we will be absolve and not take accountability because we outsourced critical thinking. We belive they should take accountability, we then look for the next 'thinker' to outsourced to. I believe, it will take more than improving the education system to help people understand and accept that, at some stage we need to be accountable; but education is a start. So I agree with advocate Sikhakhane. Great content as always Dr Mpofu-Walsh I always feel refreshed after consuming it. Keep it up please.

Refreshing

Though provoking discussion. We need more Africans in particular blacks to understand where we come from, where we're are now and where we are going. We must just stop being arm chair critics. We need to be analytical thinkers, we must teach our families, societies, churches and the community at large to see what is happening and what we need to do to change cause. Mandela generation gave us political freedom. We must leave economic freedom. I am reminded by the late President Mandela when he said if ANC is not anymore relevant we must leave it. I think this is the time

Wheres part 3 👀👀😭😭😭😭

Can you please explain this question or statement by breaking it down for me. There is a significant Debate among schoolars about whether the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) is keeping up with globalisation or falling behind the rest of the world. It is part of a long-running discussion about the nature of modernisation and development. The first suggest that the Nena is successfully integrating itself into the global economy and preparing for a sustainable future, while the second asserts that the region is becoming increasingly uncompetitive and marginal, failing to switch to high-growth economies. Discuss the two above- mentioned your hypothesis about contemporary political and economic processes in the region and substantiate the discussion with perspective from literature. Discuss and reflect on the challenges facing the MENA Politically ten year after Arab Spring as well as it's anticipated interi economic performance in the post-covid-19 period

Decades I was caught up in a protest march to Durban City Hall, a demonstration organised by the ANC to protest the ANC.

Why can't the population choose to really move away from political organizations and just form social movements lead by credible people with good insights to deliver the impoverished. Radical Leaders are needed to contribute in really dismantling neo-apartheid and capitalist agenda in SA. Otherwise, the majority will forever leave in poverty.

who is defending the constitution yaa well said

Muzi must be a CJ in the future!

@Sizwe can U make part 3 wer both yor analysts give us a guide on how to redefine our own view as a Nation & how we shud position ourself in the world, cuz I have noted that part 1 & 2 is abt how this western/eurocentric view has continued to be arrogant & strong due to the intellects & professionals it reproduces. Pls open a debate on how to go abt in order for a Nation lik ours to create its own system & how shud it b. Dis system is not benefiting us at all wen Do we create our own system & how, without creating an instabilities?

I also don't know the reason why the drafters of the constitution added it but I suspect that the "..., united in diversity" was added so as to try and prevent ethnic imperialism. Or perhaps it was an overt recognition of the racial, ideological and ethnic diversity of South Africa and the fact that countries like it tend to be fragile in our age of nation states. A bit like old Austria-Hungary and so many other European nations prior to World War 2. Perhaps it was cynically added for another reason entirely such as the preservation of white economic hegemony as alluded to in this talk. Either way, its addition does say something notable about the country; my suspicion is that it indicates the fragility of the country.

My question is EFF is here ,why these learned speakers here dnt join voices of the young ones and publicly endorse them......why everyone is acting on their own in their little corners , We are losing because we won't come together ... Advocate Mpho is the only elder in there helping those young Lions why GoGo and Advocate Sakhakhane on the side lines EFF needs voices of elders so they can be taken seriously

The Apartheid government DID nurture their own people and educated and uplifted them especially after the Anglo Boer war, and even though the ANC has made hundreds of laws detrimental to Europeans, it has neither nurtured not uplifted their own people. Maybe it's time to take responsibility and focus on education, anti corruption and empowering their own masses who voted for them.

Heyi ☝️👌 Sizwe nabo abo Tata babini nichane uchwethe ngalomba udla umzi ontsundu yinto ndihlala ndisibuza yona ingaba siyazi qonda na? okanye siyaphi na? Kwaye futhi isidima sohlanga lwethu alide libone Na kuba imihla-nemihla izinto azijiki sisoloko zinye....sode siyikokose kude kube nini lentswela ingaka mzi ontsundu 🤔 Thank u for the conversations nto ka Mpofu 🙏

6. Law of Freedom: You have the power but not the right to ignore the Divine laws of nature. Choose to follow the law with love and joy that grow out of understanding and the wisdom and power of the Divine spirit will flow through your being. The ability to act free of emotionalism that flows from commitment to the law of Unity. The foundation for political power. This is whats missing in all political engagement across Africa..The MAAT foundation in political life. MAAT = UBUNTU

Talk of revolution often gets us excited but it has delivered poor results though out the continent... we can't ignore that! Sometimes we must just use our eyes and LOOK. The citizens of Africa's revolutionary states are here, in places like Yeoville, Hillbrow, and Sunnyside. Revolution is sexy in theory, but what has been its RESULTS:::: I am not convinced 😄

I have a problem with discussion labelling Lindiwe's article as an opinion... she spoke and presented her message as a matter of fact. Everyone is afforded freedom of expression and Lindiwe is not exempt from that right. But, Lindiwe was not giving an opinion and neither was she critiquing. The ANC and majority of South Africa accepted the settlement. The "consciouss" question it only 10-15years into its application in the with the realization the the ANC has turned rogue. We must accept that the ANC is a liberation movement and only a liberation movement. History has repeatedly shown liberation movements to fail at governing. The baton needs to change hands and let someone else finish the race.

Quite a mouthful hey

If any of the participants truly understood the spirit. purport and objects of the Constitution which is founded on the inherent human values that are intrinsic to the human (not race) condition, namely, dignity, equality and freedom (for all, not just a particular group); then it would be understood as to why there are some who defend the Constitution as being near perfect . it is the arrogance of the state. of which the judiciary is a part. that is solely to blame for the failure to bring about meaningful economic transformation.

Sizwe when are you interviewing CIC Malema?

"legitimizing inequality"

Just missing Lwazi Lushaba here!

what comes out clearer during this discussion by such high immensely quick intellect people is one thing only that sth.is wrong with this constitution and we needs must review and tackle it.

Key take aways, stop playing with yourself, don't fear the unknown

There was no robust criticism from Lindiwes article. Her articles was full if dishonesty and diversions of responsibility.

adv Muzi Sikhakhane🙏💪💪💪

Thought provoking stuff. ANC defending the privilege minority, very true. Am often reminded of Thabo Mbeki when he talks of the land question. Qouting the freedom charter, TM would quote this 'all the land redivided amongst those who work it.' He would then ask, who works the land? Answer is rather evident, the white minority farmers who control vast amounts of land. This is indicative of ANC govt attitude toward land redistribution. It's as if there was no intent to deal with the original sin, land theft! Freedom Charter was the basis of this SA constitution with S25 leaving little room for redistributive land justice.

Haven't heard so much waffling since I heard Julius talking the other day...

Interesting conversation, but some aspects of it I found troubling - especially from Adv Skhakhane. First of all, I feel that refusing to deal with the flaws in the minister's argument is self-serving and/or dishonest. It makes the discussion unbalanced, especially given that many of her critics pointed to specific flaws in her argument. However, it seems more convenient to ignore this and claim that the critics ignored her main point. Personally, I only "understood" what she was trying to put across when she wrote in response to Mavuso Msimang. Even that "understanding" was based on a good faith reading of her response and accepting her explanation of what the initial point had been. Adv Sikhakhane accuses those who disagree with the minister on this of being defenders of inequality and continued Black poverty. I find this crass and, frankly, hypocritical given his claims that the minister was insulted instead of her arguments being dealt with. An issue I would have loved you guys to have explored is the minister's point about access to justice for the poor. This is one of the points on which I agree with her, even though I feel it's something for the executive and legislature to resolve. I would have liked to hear what the Advocate, as a legal practitioner thinks of this and what they are doing about it. At the end of the day, I think we're all in agreement that we want an entirely different order to what we have now. Naturally, we will have differences in how we get there, in fact there may even be differences in how we envision that new order. This is where mature, dialectical discussion becomes important. Thank you for playing your part in this regard.

anc Out. da Out. Any others name EFF call, Out. Nationalise all, and d land is the only way.

No malice intended, but I'd like to ask in all sincerity why I should donate my land when history proves that it was bought in the late 19th century from the South African government. In all honesty shouldn't government be morally obliged to compensate me for that land? Secondly, if the current constitution is removed, what will replace it? The last twenty seven years has proven that the ANC has been unable to build or create anything and constantly uses the 'blame factor ' for it's failures.

I mean ....... Dat say all Azania for black people

splitting episodes into two is cool. Just post it once and move on man

I am not sure I follow Muzi. It is a bit confusing. Lindiwe Sisulu is not an ordinary citizen. She has been actively involved in the ANC govt that has brought the people of SA into this poverty. These people suffer daily and their focus is that survival and not the constitution and its issues. As an adv I thought you would make it clear that she has a right to express her views, but also a responsibility those views carry and its consequences. She and the ANC, and you are right in saying this, are incapable of self reflection. And this is, to end off, surely what is lacking Sisulu's article. Criticising what she created but knowingly passes blame and throws insults. Immature.