Black Locust - Very useful tree with real management requirements in the forest garden 

Thanks for adding this layer of thought onto this. I should have gone into that in this video, but wanted to keep the focus here. By all means, Black Locust is just one of many very legitimate plants that can do good work in early succession. Other excellent N-fixers to explore: River Locust (Amorpha Fruiticosa) Goumi Honey Locust Seaberry Autumn Olive Alders FOR SURE! Groundnut (for the vining layer) So so many more... Black Locust is just one ingredient in a rich and diverse design, and may very well be inappropriate as the choice in many contexts (the thorns and suckering habit can be really incompatible with land use for folks). Thanks for reminding us of the wider lens here!

EdibleAcres have you done a video on groundnut? I’m very interested in it. Seems like a perfect survival plant to me and the high protein levels are good for someone who doesn’t eat much meat plus I love the flowers.

Alders and maples done even compare to black locust ability to grow in degraded, polluted and drought stricken lands.

Black locust is extremely adaptable to poor soil and dry soil. Alder is not.

They still are.

We use locust posts extensively for projects. For really long lasting rot proof posts you want much older wood. The logs I showed towards the end will be great for top elements of a trellis and such, but not super rot resistant in the ground until they develop more heartwood...

I was told by a neighbor that it used to be called ironwood.

Mayavata when completely dry they are hard as a rock almost impossible to drive a staple in

@@davidbass7593 Yep. My woodpile this year includes a great deal of it. Some of it is as hard as a brick. It's kind of hard to get lit sometimes, so we start our fires with pine, and throw the BL on once it's going good.

We use black locust as recommended in this video too, but in the second line of the garden alignment. The first line is its "warrior" cousin - honey locust tree (gladitsia triacanthos). It is the best defensing fortress against the unwanted visitors as well as windbreaking natural system. We love all locust trees. They are great allies in all respects.

They are great.

It can feel that way sometimes

Sounds great!

So happy to share

Definitely have learned that mid to later spring is the ideal time to take root cuttings, and we will take them and put them in a well drained soil in a container that stays in a high tunnel or other very warm space for a bit to help stimulate growth before planting out. Worked well and now we have 7' tall shoots in ONE YEAR!!!

It is just important to know what it will be doing in the landscape once actively in it. I consider it an asset and with hand tools it can generate a ton of useful mulch if spreading into unwanted places, but until the next layer of succession really pushes up and over it to hold it back it can be a bear.

I think Black Locust needs a TON of time to really cure down and then it's an amazing firewood. We have some stored for 2 years and are excited to have it for firewood this winter :)

I'm not sure if those will take as cuttings but certainly worth a shot.

One or two are putting on new growth so fingers crossed 🤞 I took thicker parts whilst it was still dormant thinking it’d be the same as my stone fruit 😅

Sounds like some nice ideas there. I like Catalpa a lot, it's such a fast and beautiful tree.

Next time it makes sense to DEFINITELY wait until dormancy season in the fall or early spring, but maybe they'll put on new growth and do well for you!

@@edibleacres if in fall, would you grow in-doors or in a greenhouse?

Some dense walls I bet!

They are hardy to zone 4. I know of people up in zone 4 Vermont growing them.

@@edibleacres Wow! I am so surprised but will definitely be doing more research on them now.

I just found one growing wild on my parents' property, also in Vermont, but more like zone 3.

Jill Howard very cool!

@@edibleacres will they grow in Canada?

Hopefully there can be some trees that make food in that mix, too!

@@edibleacres yes! There will be eventually, for now I’m working replacing the 11 pine trees first because now that there gone there is a lot of open space and it’s not pretty right now but it will be soon!

Im wanting to do the same. Do Siberian Pes Shrubs have thorns?

All those thorns I wouldn't want to eat them either

Interesting. Mine loved it. My experience, though, was that livestock only eats plants high in nutrition they need. On my farm, goats would walk past luscious, beautiful poison ivy without even sniffing it, which is unusual - but obviously they weren't deficient in whatever PI was heavy in nutrient wise.

@@wendyandwalter40 I agree..I've also had some love poison ivy and others pass by. They know what they need

Do you happen to know the scientific names of both species I would like to be able to identify which seeds to buy.

@@judahjackson9506 (1) Robinia pseudoacacia var. rectissima The yellow locust is a tree, called "yellow" because the wood is a lighter. the tall, straight tree pressumed nonexistent in the Appalachian forest had, for generations, been alive and well in Long Island, New York, where it was called the "shipmast" locust, and had been planted, under the encouragement of the Soil Conservation Services, to reduce erosion and enrich the soil. This tree is called as THE TREE THAT LAST LIKE A STONE for it's wood won't rot, immune from insects. The reason why it is called shipmast locust is because it is aa straight as a shipmast used in ships before. The yellow locust is long-lived---borers do not trouble it---and the wood, used by mountain people as structural timber bridges and buildings as well as fenceposts, is virtually indestructible. It can only be reproduced by rooted cuttings and rarely by seeds. You can either go to Long Island, New York to ask for rooted cuttings or ask a forest ranger for information in your area on where you can acquire rooted cuttings of the yellow locust. The yellow locust wood is colored "YELLOW". (2) The ordinary black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) is a tree that grows typically to forty or fifty feet in this region (and occasionally to seventy or eighty) - a smallish, gganrly-looking tree with wide, complex branching, beginning low on the trunk. It's forked branches make the tree subject to borers, and therefore the tree has a short life span of fifty to seventy-five years, and rots away rather quickly after being cut. It's wood is not commercially valuable. This tree is only useful as firewood and to reclaim mined out areas. The color of the ordinary black locust is "BROWN". The ordinary black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) is a tree that grows typically to forty or fifty feet in this region (and occasionally to seventy or eighty) - a smallish, gganrly-looking tree with wide, complex branching, beginning low on the trunk. It's forked branches make the tree subject to borers, and therefore the tree has a short life span of didty to seventy-five years, and rots away rather quickly after being cut. It's wood is not commercially valuable. The yellow locust is an another matter entirely. This tree, called "yellow" because the wood is a lighter color than that of the black locust (which is brown), has the same sprays of compound leaves as the black, and the same leguminous seed pods, like the pods of field peas or fava beans. But there the similarities end. The yellow locust rises as tall and straight as the mast of a saling ship in the forest, it's branches not beginning on the stout trunk until fifty or sixty feet from the ground. It's crown is narrow, not broad like the black locust's, and at the top of the tree is at or above the canopy ---often at 150 feet ir higher, Also unlike the black locust, the yellow locust is long-lived---borers do not trouble it---and the wood, used by mountain people as structural timber bridges and buildings as well as fenceposts, is virtually indestructible. The mystery of the yellow locust as a tree distinct from the black aises not because the mountain people are confused, but because the yellow was more or less "lost" n the literature of academic botany for over forty years. It is perhaps no wonder that young botanists and foresters deny it's exstence. Recently, a smapling of this lost literature was collected by John Flynn, who, following up a vaque reference in Donald Culross Peattie's 1950 book A natural History of Treets, scoured the U.S. Department of Agriculture Library at Beltsville, Mryland (with the enthuasistic help of te librarian on duty), for early articles on the yellow locust. Reading through a packet of a half a dozen papers from the 1930s and 1940s, he found that the tall, straight tree pressumed nonexistent in the Appalachian forest had, for generations, been alive and well in Long Island, New York, where it was called the "shipmast" locust, and had been planted, under the encouragement of the Soil Conservation Services, to reduce erosion and enrich the soil. The tree was identified in 1936 as a separate botanical variety by Oran Raber (Robinia pseudoacacia var. rectissima).

That seems like a great technique. I'm comfortable having it take a while to break down as we have branchy mulches all over the place.

My workaround for that is to lop everything up into short sections: twigs can be longer, then shorter and shorter with increasing diameter. I cut the material while on the tree bit by bit when possible so you don’t have to bend down or use one hand to hold it. When it’s too big for clippers, I either add it to a pathway border, cut it into firewood, or building or garden material. Everything that’s no good for that goes in brush piles in the shade (brush piles in fields here turn to brambles and you can’t mow).. Once the brush has sat a few years you can pull it apart, collect rotted wood duff/fungal innoculents, and re-pile what’s left. Yes I’m OCD when it comes to chopping and dropping, but I’ve found this system to be really efficient.

James Kniskern the smallest pieces should be free of heartwood. Should break down relatively fast.

James Kniskern Have you seen the worms actually till the char in? I hate tillage and I know those worms go deeper.

@@Dollapfin yes. Worms and other critters mix the charcoal bits into the soil. It takes a while but it sure works. I also keep piling on other organic materials on top of the charcoal.

So many wonderful values to Black Locust.

Mayavata25 live oak, hop hornbeam, hickory, Osage orange, and persimmon can be denser, however remember that trees don’t always grow the same. My shop teacher has a section of cherry that I believe is denser than teak!

I haven't seen many but I'll keep my eyes out! :)

So grateful for your honest take on these traditional species. So many people forget that overgrowth of species is due to under use and under management. If you prune before the seeds, one should do quite well.

Appreciating your lens with all this, thanks for sharing with us all!

Very lovely plant for sure.

Could be worthwhile if you have deer pressure and a desire for another harvest in your lifetime.

Honey Locust does not send up suckers as far as I know

Honey locust is a great fodder tree but doesn't nodulate. It is debated whether or not it can fix nitrogen by another mechanism, but it probably isn't a superior species for that.

@@edibleacres thank you very much for your information!

@@erikjohnson9223 Thank you so much for your information!

@@edibleacres good to know

Sure could.

@@edibleacres I think I'm gonna try it. Got an air pruning bed with some seedling black locust in my backyard and am gonna try a black locust hedge near property borders.

I have an old honey locust 'hedge' or living wall on my land. The individual stems have welded together and the thing looks pretty bull proof to me with those monstrous black tines! But the way several separate plants have joined together above an old pollard line is interesting. I wonder if it's just something the tree does or if it means they're all genetic clones.

@@tomfool43 good to know. What spacing do they have?

They are not evergreen...

I haven't watched super closely, but each round of pruning, digging, cutting, etc., seems to be very stimulating to more expansion and growth. It's a little crazy but pretty wonderful too.

@@edibleacres Ah ok, then it's settled. I will rather just plant it where I'm comfortable even if it escapes a bit, as opposed to risking putting it on a border with neighbour's grassland. :) Thank you.

No, the suckering happens either way!

I haven't heard of that but I can't say for sure... hmmm...

Hi, Nancy. Do you (or anyone else who reads this) happen to know if the seeds of the golden rain tree are toxic to chickens?

I googled it, Golden Chain is toxic. This is Golden Rain tree, Koelreuteria paniculata. Now that you bring this up, I realize why I had so many seedlings this year. I built a fence where the chicken can't get to it. I'll have to let them out this fall. Thanks for that.

Sure do. Heartwood Black Locust is incredibly rot resistant compared to Pressure Treated or any other lumber.

We don't have very established Osage... But both are wonderful trees for sure!

Right. There is a theory I believe that since the thorns and branchiness ends when the tree gets above a certain height, that shows it evolved alongside the mammoth. So to use them as fodder most effectively, we should bring in elephants or clone a frozen mammoth.

Could be!

www.onescytherevolution.com/quick-order.html - I got the light bush blade type...

If it is chopped up it breaks down very vary fast. As branches it certainly sticks around for a bit...

The pollarding is about keeping the regrowth above the browsing height of the deer that move through the area.

No. Kind of complex scene overall, some of the videos are from our 6 acre parcel where my folks live, like this video.... Most, including the chickens and high tunnels, etc., are our .5 acre spot where my wife and I live.

You can research, but I believe Black Locust would be more rot resistant and higher BTU... That said, if you already have a resource on the land that has some high value in it's own right!

I'll plan to do a vide on it soon... One Scythe Revolution is the company...

@@edibleacres Thanks. I have one of his snaths and a blade that I thought was a ditch blade but after one use in an area of thick golden rod the blade had three cracks in it. I see he has a heavier duty ditch blade and I am guess that is the one you have. Look forward to the video.

I would explore it. You may find that you can coppice or pollard the tree of heaven when dormant and then manage the regrowth as incredibly fast and rich mulch for gardens. This keeps the roots intact while you release more light to the ground for other characters to plug in...

@@edibleacres i am currently pollarding them. They really smell bad and send millions of seeds up into the growing space of my garden so I'd like to plan for a future with a less invasive and more useful tree. I'm hoping to give a thornless black locus a try!

Those are standard genetics, but planted pretty close and a bit of effort to prune side branches translates into nice clean runs of wood.

Hmmm... I don't know but maybe Moringa is something to explore?

Mimosa or eucalyptus?

They definitely lose their leaves early and leaf out late... That is normal... I'm not sure I can say that seeing suckers means the parent trees are dying. It generally more means there is disturbance happening in the soil or the context is changing. I think you can cut them out as needed, but ask for more opinions of course!

@@edibleacres Thank you! Loving the channel!!!

I haven't had them come up in a strong way from seed, just mainly suckers

I'm not quite sure, I'll let you know if I see good flowering this year, this will be 3 years from pollarding.

@@edibleacres Great thank you so much.🙏

We have some areas with Autumn Olive that after pruning seem to provide a huge boost to the plants around them. I have no science or numbers to offer, but I can say my experience and observation seems to support my feelings that N-fixers are beneficial, especially when chop and drop practices are put into place. Maybe try just a few in a given area and watch the changes (if there are any to experience)

I don't know that there would be. THey are super powerful. Same with bamboo. I'd say pruning shears or a scythe :). The good news is that they are amazing mulch plants so it is worth the management.

@@edibleacres could it b tamed in a big pot?

I have no direct experience, sorry.

chickens love the leaves...they'll only eat what they want ...that is my experience

I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Mesquite, New Mexico Locust and Palo Verde are in the same family and are native to that region. I think Black Locust needs a steadier supply of water than it would get there, unless you plan to irrigate it somehow.

Different plants for sure. Some overlap in characteristics but different beings

We plan to sell them again in the fall. We ask $15 a piece for shipmast locust, super super straight and nice trees.

They are like 'tree comfrey' :) I call them that sometimes!

They've got thorns for sure. I'm so used to working with a wide mix of thorny plants I forget about them!

Honey Locust have large thorns, not Black Locust, which has small ones, although you still have to respect them.

Not sure if Black Locust can be eaten, I don't believe so...

Black locust has toxic seeds/legumes. Twelve inches sounds more like a Catalpa, which isn't in the bean family. Don't eat anything you can't positively identify (& verify to be edible & how to prepare it so that it is edible). I would buy or check out a guide to local trees and key it out based on flowers, leaves, bark, fruit, etc. Then you might be able to find culinary traits (or not) by checking with a forager's channel / book / website. Green Deane (eattheweeds) does a good job for the SE USA.

@@erikjohnson9223 Hello Thanks for the info. It been two months .. Know one would answer my question . The tree has long thorns about 3 " long. You almost can use it for a. 8 penny nail. Everyyear these I call long black green bean shape fall to the ground about l00 and if you let it dry out the beans is on the inside of a hull hard and black. Just as hard as any dry bean from the store. Thanks for the reply.

Mixed reviews from folks but we know a good numberof people feeding sheep with stems andleaves of locust with noproblems

I agree as a permaculture garden this tree is absolute scourge .. there are many trees to use for drop feeding that do not cause so much skin irritations . I have a neighbor with these trees and the seed all over my yard and have been a complete pain in the ass .

never mind I posted that before I watched this. the answer is yes

But they don’t have nasty thorns

@@michaelripperger5674 oh ok I thought they did have thorns; tu

They do have thorns.

Ahh maybe they are sisters from another mister

I don't have direct experience with feeding black locust to animals but I know a number of people that swear by it as a high quality feed...

@@edibleacres ya, steve gabriel at Cornell claims it has the same nutritional value as alfalfa

@@edibleacres did a little research and found that black locust does have a similar nutritional profile to alfalfa, though it is important to trunk of the tree mature to about 3 seasons, so that farm animals do not ingest the bark/trunk of the growing tree.

I'd be careful with it for monogastric animals. It is toxic to people.

I do know it is neither a black locust (wrong shape, wrong leaves) nor a che (Cudrania tricuspidata, silkworm thorn)--wrong flower buds, and somewhat wrong foliage. Lycium might be possible (I'd want to see the open flowers or the fruit to tell; Lycium will look like goji berries). FL has a lot of thorn scrub.

I don't think it is, but don't take my word for it.

These trees have thorns.

I do not believe this is true, but we've only eaten the flowers (they are amazing). We have friends who feed leaves and branches to sheep and goats...

We don't have horses so I didn't think of that. Good to add more detail to this discussion, thanks.

Dangerous how?

It Is poisonous to almost all animals and humans ,the leaves ,twigs ,bark, seeds .