Board Games Are Too Expensive! 

I am completely on board with the message here. Thank you for breaking down some of the "deluxification" shenanigans in a more thorough way than I was able to in my video (since I'm not generally a huge backer of the things). We need voices with platforms to talk publishers about this, but also to talk to the peoples and give them the ability to shake off their FOMO and resist getting sucked into the bling.

I am definitely becoming more selective in purchasing of games, partly because of the price and shipping costs, and partly because I am fortunate to have a large selection of different types of games. I look at every new game and ask myself - "Does it have something different to anything I already have?" and the majority of answers are usually "No". Now I know I am in a fortunate position but I still think everyone should ask themselves this question on any purchase.

Seems like Frostpunk did it right. It was €75 for the core box with meeples, wooden and cardboard tokens; and €125 for deluxe version with plastic minis. According to Kickstarter, 3.5k pledged the base version and 8k got deluxe version which looks like a good split.

This is an economics issue. These games are packed to the brim and expensive because people keep backing the games. There are "economy cars" games out there, but they are rare for the types of games you like and cover. These huge games wouldn't exist without Kickstarter because publishers wouldn't take that financial risk. People vote with their wallets. If everyone starts dropping Kickstarter and goes to Target for $35 games, the market will shift and prices and premium components will drop. So far, enough people with enough cash are voting strongly for more, bigger, and premium. A company like Far Off Games spent 5+ years making Arydia and they made a bet they could get 1/2 the backers at 200% of the price, and so far looks like a great business decision. Ferrari sells a fraction of the cars Ford does, but we don't all complain that Ferrari should have options in the car without leather and less horsepower so more people can buy one. It's a free market and a business decision. It's not a right for us to be able to all afford a game. If it's too expensive, don't back it and the market will shift prices down.

Expensive games have “always” existed - MTG, Warhammer, X-wing, Heroclix, etc. People used to pick the one they liked best then play it all the time. The problem now is that people seem to think they need every single one that comes out.

I agree. I think we get a lot of cookie-cutter enemies because the games have miniatures. Make miniatures or terrain an option. I have plenty of minis. I want a good reasonably priced game.

I guess some people are happy to get a game with pre-painted minis, even for a higher price, why not. But for me, as a painter, that's an automatic no back.

This is one of your best videos. The amount of money I have put into KS has declined in 2021, I’ve only backed one game (Chip Theory though). This is simply because money is tight due to COVID and the steady increase of a core box (just like you said in your video) - it’s getting unsustainable. I would like to shout out to Awaken Realms for their “The Great Wall” campaign. They offered the full mini version, plus sun drop but sadly I could not afford it…but I can experience the game with the cheaper needle version. Yes it is meeples and not everyone’s cup of tea but it allowed me to actually afford the game at the time. They now even have stickers for them 😀. Once again, great video and keep up the content KOA.

Descents high price is not because of the 3d terrain. The terrain is just more cardboard which does not cost much at all. They upcharge because of the app and the main reason is it is FANTASY FLIGHT and they have higher profit margins.

I'd say KS board games are too expensive, there are some gems that cost ~25$ in shops, for me best example is Whitehall mystery. Sadly when it comes to AAA board games they start to turn into AAA video games - unfinished, overpriced, delivered late and similar to others in style, gameplay and setting. For that reason I'll probably stop backing games altogether.

The more players in your playgroup, the easier is to afford the cost of a game and the less amount is needed for your share. I'm a solo player, exclusively, so, yes... it hurts my wallet a lot!

Totally agree with KoA here. I'd love that every dungeon crawler, arena battler, boss battler, etc. had a cardboard/plastic standee/token version. Not only would that make it all that accessible, but arguably would make it's community bigger. I'd personally love that since I'm a huge mini enthusiast and love to put to use all those great minis I own both bought or printed. It would be awesome for me to be able to back a dozen games a year to test them and also put to use all my minis.

Prepainted minis in core game is the reason I won't back Arydia. And what about people who love painting minis ? We pay for a feature we don't need...

All ins are ridiculous. If someone told me 5 years ago that boargame can cost $ 500 I would not believe.

Do like me : Print and 3D print every PNP you can find on KS for only 5$

It's interesting, I wonder where the breakpoint is. Arydia being pre-painted is $165, they could probably offer it without being pre-painted for $30-$50 cheaper. But then that raises the cost of the pre-painted, so maybe the pre-painted ends up being $200+ which for many just increases their sea of grey if they don't paint. Because just like you said, cost of having another sku, the increased cost of logistics for separate production process of painted vs not painted and getting the correct amounts for each. It becomes an argument, why not just have cardboard standees for everything and flimsy cards, cheap boards, etc to make sure as many people can get the game as cheaply as possible, vs having something that is a premium experience so the gameplay isn't the only thing enjoyed but the tactile feel and look of it too. Not saying one is right over the other, it's just a really complicated conversation. And backers vote with their wallets despite how much they complain, as long as companies keep getting money, it will get worse.

I think I'm pretty much done backing games. The FOMO and such I hate. I'm mostly after the minis for painting anyways, so I'll get myself a 3D Printer. Then I can print stuff when I want it. The STLs don't get deleted when I make backups. :D Eff you with the FOMO and exclusives and stuff haha.

What an important topic. Thank you for continuing to speak in to difficult issues that affect each of us more than we’d like to admit! Bells and whistles

This is the very reason I sought after smaller games with a smaller foot print. It provides a nice challenge to find games that can provide just as much of a narrative/strategic/adventure experience without the excess.

I do agree on the Standees options being offered - I took that option for both Oathsworn and ISS: Vanguard, plus I did not take the add-on minis options for Tainted Grail or Etherfields.

it's a problem with multiple medias right now- they are pushing 'value' but they operate thinking this will be your only version of this entertainment and want you to sink your hours in their version. video games pushing the mega editions and season passes and additional cosmetic upgrades but they wantyou to sink your hours into their medium. Kickstarter games pushing all of these expansions for more content without knowing what fans might want more of in the game (more missions or more characters or a feature that does X). shipping is alsoa beast right now too that throws more gas on the fire of money

Been waiting for this video, and love Arydia in the thumbnail ;) . I would like to have stretch goals that are actually discounts to us... Keep up the good work! What your view on RPG Tanares for someone who has never played p&p RPG but has played them on PC for decades?

Minimum pledge levels are a great focus. A good publisher or designer should always want to make their games as accessible as possible in terms of price. I don't care if there is a $999999 pledge, go as high as you want but there should always be good options for your backers!! An option

I think the key statement that you made was that you were there with us backing the products. This is why I don't back kickstarters. They always add something different into it that you can only get with the kickstarter so they can drive up the price and RARELY does it change anything about the game experience. I recognize that there have been some Kickstarters that offer the opportunity to buy the base game for such and such and then you can add promos, expansions or premium parts as add-ons. I may back that, but I generally wait for retail. Don't mind the wait. I do have a friend that has many games that he needs to publish and kickstarter is the way to go because he cannot afford to publish it on his own. So I am grateful for that....But he's just trying to publish it, not make money off a kickstarter above and beyond the retail. The only way to make the statement is to be very choosy about what you back..

One thing that I hate is that even though games are geting more and more expensive, theydont come with a proper storage solution for the components, its just like "here is a bunch of ziplocks, good luck and thank you!'

I just wonder if the current messed up supply chain conditions are in part driving suppliers need to increase prices in order to make up for their losses. I'm a procurement specialist for a military contractor and i'm running into all sorts of delays with my suppliers for these same reasons. Even notice it with restaurants and pharmacies in my local area. It's pretty bad.

Even more expensive for European backers - more and more campaigns adding VAT (20% from price and even shipping) for EU...

Games are more expensive, especially on KS. And I agree FOMO blows, BUT as someone who got into gaming not too long ago, part of what sucked me in is the deluxification and beauty of the games these days. Not all games need it, but I am one who personally has no issue paying $165 for Arydia. Or $300 for Primal. But I do have a problem paying $60 for a game that is not deluxified or blinged out. Gaming is a hobby, and like most hobbies there are different levels to how deep you can go and high pricey it can be. No one is forcing anyone to pay $165 for Arydia. They make that choice for whatever their reasons may be. This is a very interesting topic and like I said, I agree and wish games were all around cheaper, but then we would miss out on a lot of the upgrades that we...or at least some of us... have grown to love.

I'm starting to really like acrylic standees over miniatures, so much more compact so weighs less and takes up less space, looks premium, nicer/more durable than cardboard, but doesn't cost as much as minis.

I held descent 3 in my hands. It was lighter than 175 euro coins. I put it back, shacking my head. I agree with you. Still I bought TMB which would fall in the same category and ordered KDM recently. But I defenitely back fewer games now.

If the game gets played and it's fun, I don't have problem with the premium price. Arydia for example cost like 2 or 3 movie nights out with the family, if it hits the table 3 or 4 times and it's a fun experience the the price might be not so off as family entertainment. The problem for me is that the higher price is not a guarantee of a better return and it's hard to predict if the game would work with the gaming group or not. So, to stick with Arydia, I'd gladly back a cheaper version with standees instead of the pre painted minis and take a smaller loss if it ends up unplayed in the shelf with a bounce of other games I own.

I do really love this video very insightful

Any thoughts on hybrid campaigns? Example - The current Draco Studios Lords of Vaala kickstarter has digital tiers which include STL's and PDF and physical tiers from a reasonable $49 up to... umm $320...

I am always impressed by how well balanced your opinion videos are. I was waiting for the end of the video to post a message here bringing up how Aeon Trespass Prelude was well received by the community but nobody really bought it and you brought it up yourself! :-) BTW, I don't believe they will really manifacture the Prelude box (it is not available on the pledge manager) and ItU even mentioned that they will most likely consolidate the two expansions into a single box (due to very few people buying only one of them). Another interesting case is Dawn of Madness (even if the project is severely delayed at this point) as they offered a standees option, even for expansions. Oathsworn is another game that had a standees version, and I believe that one sold pretty well. One thing I don't really agree with you is the games having too much content, like too much story. That is likely an issue with scope creep that could endanger the ability to deliver the game. But, from a customer point of view, if the game is really good, I wouldn't want it to have less content. And splitting it in more boxes is likely going to cost me more. Being more careful in what we buy is probably better than buying lots of cheaper games. E.g. I was rush in buying Gloomhaven and I will have to figure out a way to get rid of it, at a loss, because it is not the game for me. But I love Middara, I played a bunch of it already and I wouldn't want it to have any less that its immense amount of content!

I'm glad that someone tackled this topic. It is too expensive! Although, I would rather spend $60 on a board game than a video game for $40 that I finish after 12-15 hours of play.

That’s why Tiny Epic Dungeon did so well, it’s a cheap dungeon crawler that has deep yet simple play sessions.

The cost going into making board games is really a lot more than people think. In terms of value board games should be priced quite a bit higher and fewer games should be published. But because board games must be 60 bucks there’s a lot of corner cutting that’s happening with some games to meet cost.

But on the other hand, do you need to buy every game? There are thousands of example of things you are not going to be able to afford. If I as a designer want my game to be premium and only want it to be seen like this… who are people to judge… it’s the designers creation. Don’t see anybody complaining about not being able to afford a Ferrari, Rolex, iPhone etc. …

I can deal with it with these sort of campaign-based games - Aeon Trespass, Etherfields, etc. Expensive for sure, but I've also spend that much on Descent 2nd Edition, Imperial Assault, the Arkham Horror LCG... I just see it as what would be 3-5 years of content for a game series like that all in one purchase. I'm okay with that. What I really struggle with is seeing the same approach start to crop up for Eurogames, with the KS selling deluxe editions that costs $100s.

Opening opinion is yes and no. It depends a lot on how much you buy and what you buy. Kdm is a 400$ base game. That’s expensive. But if you play it for 400 hrs its a dollar an hour. Thats not so expensive. The more games you buy the less time you have to play any given game. Making them more expensive at a time played value level. There is also the question of is the game good quality and does it offer other benefits like painting minis. Im actually getting much more selective as I go for that reason. I’m more likely to get more of a game I already have and love than a new game unless its very different. There are games that launched this year that two years ago I would have been all over. But barely looked at this year.

I agree with you! I would totally buy “Descent 3 lite” with cardboard standees and flat terrain for half the price. But I can’t justify paying twice the money for the 3D terrain and HIPS miniatures. Especially miniatures have different value for different people: Some love them, and get a lot of enjoyment out of painting them and displaying them. But if you just need something to indicate the position of the heroes and enemies on the board, especially if you are playing solo, paying $90 more for miniatures just isn’t worth it. I bought two other games instead for the price of Descent, one of them (Lands of Galzyr) with perfectly servicable painted wooden meeples.

I feel bad for people who are not able to back a game they want because the entry price is so high. But ultimately, companies are going to make the games that people buy. Aeon Trespass is a good example of how sometimes making a stripped-down game isn't worth it.

Issues as I see them before I watch the video: - unnecessary deluxification as part and parcel of the core package. This doesn't mean something like organizational trays, double layer player boards and so on which have some use. This is the random crap that gets put in like extra and nice dice, box uv, prepainted minis, etc. - tokens tokens tokens, does anybody actually use the 10 million different useless tokens? Literally anything would be better than all the useless tokens. Why do I need 55 bleed tokens in the case that for some reason every goddamn character and monster in the map is full of bleed? I argue that the vast majority of cardboard tokens are unnecessarily and could be done better, either with some digital app integration or through double sided player boards and dice or whatever. - way too much content that isn't well thought out, aka the expansions and exclusives problems. So many campaigns end up adding random shit that's loosely or not correctly integrated in the rules or theme or usability. I can't remember the last time these expansions or exclusives didn't have some sort of issue. In wild assen I found the expansions the best in terms of everything other than the fact that they added way too many status conditions. There's always something that goes wrong with this extra content. Minis: if you have bought more than 3 dungeon delvers, you definitely have enough proxies for 90% of the enemies in 90% of the dungeon delvers. If you backed lasting tales 1 and 2 for a total of 150 before shipping, you'd have 450 or so minis you can use as stand ins, in practically every other game. I know standees aren't popular given that they tend to be looked over, but imagine if every dungeon crawler or boss battler had an ultra light core value package which is half the price or even 1/4th the price that doesn't have minis, might not even have standees, relies on a very basic app for tracking conditions instead of tokens for status conditions and coins , etc. It would be much more popular than selling the exact same game without minis for 20-30% less....

I agree with your message. Our group has played a lot of Dead of Winter-we got our money's worth with that game. We are currently playing Nemesis an awful lot so worth its money. We looked at Gloomhaven but we can't justify the expense so not going to happen even though ,had it been a little more realistic in price we could have probably had lots of fun with it.

Well, sure it´s supercool to play with amazing minis and boards, but in the end the most important thing, for me at least, is the gameplay itself. If the rules, setting, theme, etc are engaging its usually an enjoyable game. No one minds if companies are putting out luxury components, but then again, is that really more important than "the game"? One of my all time favorites is Arkham Horror 2nd ed, a game that probably is considered dated to many people. But this game is so great, still going strong with cardboard standees and other low cost materials.

Having options like meeples or standees is a great idea, and I've been wishing more games had that option. I think part of the problem is that the longer you're in the hobby the more miniatures you end up collecting and the less you really end up needing or wanting. I ended up getting the retail, standee version of Folklore the Affliction because I had no interest in the miniatures. I'm currently backing Arydia at $1 because I am very interested in the game but I can't justify the expense this month. I also think the pre-painted miniatures are ugly and would much rather have had standees or blank miniatures I could paint or blackwash on my own. I'll probably end up replacing the character minis with ones I already have. I've only been actively collecting for a year and have slammed on the brakes pretty hard the last few months because I can no longer justify the growing costs. I know part of it is supply issues and shipping issues from the pandemic still, but I have noticed a lot of games that chose to pre deluxify on your behalf in the recent months.

Without question the costs are getting too high. For almost all games. What saves me to a degree is I don’t play campaign games with my family, so hence I don’t by lots of those pricey games. I am not a big fan of solo BoardGaming, I figure I will just play a video game solo instead. I play BoardGames to play with people, and also get a break from electronics. But due to costs I have to be VERY selective. Does this fit my gaming group, and or do I already have a game like this? If so is this one going to be better? Do I plan to sell the other game to pay for the new one? I have recently sold about 10 good games, but others are taking their place and they would not get played anymore. The key for me is budget and resistance to FOMO.

Besides inflation it feels to me that mini quality has generally gone up (possibly due to minipainting has spread from mini gaming to regular board games). l've complained about this in reddit, but lots of companies add more stuff for replayability instead of relying on mechanics. Solomon Kane is a perfect example of this, where you got more and more campaigns with campaign specific tiles and a shit load of minis, most are used in only a single campaign, maybe two. Gloomhaven & Tainted Grail had the right idea, to use minis for the main cast & tokens/standees/cards for the monsters and giving minis as an optional expansion. AR did this with The Great Wall as well and l actually contemplated to buy the cheap version because it felt like great value. Same with the Witcher game. Furthermore, Smallworld is a perfect example of a game that creates tons of replayability through mechanics, because all the different combos of races & powers changes your strategy.

So much to also throw in the mix on top of what you mentioned: 1. Shipping costs increasing - for example darkest dungeon wanting $120 shipping for the all-in pledge, and now returning to backers asking for even more! Yes, we all understand the situation, but it doesnt encourage us to back games when the shipping is a significant percentage of the game price. I've seen games where shipping to my country (admittedly Norway) is actually more than the cost of the game (this stopped me backing cascadia). CMON is now refusing to ship to Norway as basically its too much hassle. 2. Tax - yes everyone in europe is suddenly paying an average of 20% more for each kickstarter. Throw this together with 2 wave shipping that people like AR offer - I've been badly stung by wrongly marked up shipping tickets stating incorrect amounts, amounting to me paying almost the same in tax as I did for the game. Gamefound are especially guilty here. Get your acts together or lose people. 3. The value proposition - KDM for example, huge cost. But a ton of gameplay. Hundreds of hours, before you even start to think about expansions. Arydia - 50 hours. Probably not replayable. Huge difference for me. 4. Other pet hates - multiples of the same mini - I dont need 10 demon hounds, all with the same pose! Not confirming shipping until after the KS has ended (Isofarian guard, still waiting for confirmation despite kickstarting Sept 2019!!). All-in pledges which dont actually save you money (Drunagor - base plus apocalypse all-in saves you...0). Not confirming important gameplay like solo mode until kickstarter has finished / pledging has finished (The witcher). And the publisher being surly if you dare to question them! (dead reckoning and the fiasco with the different pledge levels / all-in's) 2020 - 12 backed. 2021 (so far) - 2 backed. Kickstarters have stopped bringing value to the table. And I've never been much for bling. Gameplay >>>>>> Bling!

Giving backers the option to select from a standard version and maybe premium version(with all the bells and whistles) is just more ideal, especially for me. Even if I don't have the miniatures, at least I can still experience and enjoy the base experience. There are three games that currently have my attention - Sankoukushin, Slay the Spire, and Skyrim - but chances are, if they ended up being too expensive, I'll probably have to pass on them unfortunately.

I agree, games prices are getting crazy. The game makers are forcing us to play fewer games with their higher prices - so instead of backing 4 games a year, I can only afford to back 2. Who wins in this scenario? Fewer gaming companies.

With skyrocketing prices of games, shipping costs and new vat regulations that adds another 25% to the price, I definitely reduced number of games that i back. Another thing is that most of those AAA+ games on KS are pretty similar now - massive campaign, fantasy/sci-fi cooperative board game with dozens of minis... And to be honest - I already have too much of them.

well ive been fighting the urge to want to try to get "kingdom death : monster" and besides the rarity of the blasted thing is the price in aussie dollars (last time i looked it was about AU$450+ WITHOUT shipping). i sooooo want it but i cant "justify" that price for a game i might not even get to play.

It is worth it at times if the product is worth it. IE replay ability. The content at times also can make a game worth spending more for it. 3d terrain or minis is great if the are good quality

Arydia seems really expensive especially when you look at screenshots of just how small those minis are. I was on the fence and this video helped cement its fate on my side.

It's the job for companies to gauge their clientele, it's the job of the clientele to not be idiots and let the companies gauging them.

The bottom line is, if people continue to buy these luxury items at whatever price, that means the market is thriving and we, who complained or can't afford, are probably the minority.

Researching this, I can't get the standees cheaper than the miniatures. unless I go without miniatures, mould costs aside, standees are cheaper, but if I'm already doing minis, the per mini price is less than the standee price? Maybe at scale it becomes cheaper.

Standee options please!

I think the 54 backers most likely would have splitt in 2 groups if that pledge level would have not been available. So about 50% would have went for the next level and 50% would have not backed if money was the reason for the choice of pledge level. In the end, it probably would have been better for the company for sure, at least financially.

I wonder how much it costs a company to parallel develop a 'standees' only version of the game? We're assuming it would have little or no additional cost. We also assume that no matter how many people go in for a 'standees' version, that even 1 person necessitates a company offering it. I strongly suspect that games are vastly underpriced. I suspect that artists are not paid anywhere near enough to actually be sustainable. I also suspect that game manufacturing has been massively subsidized by the CCP in order to capture market share and, overall, it's a super tiny log-line in their budget which makes it an incredibly cost-effective subsidy for PR for them, even if barely perceptible.

A 100% true ... that why now im pretty selective .. the only kickstarter I pledge this summer was 6 siege... and waiting on 24 of august for the pm of primal... that it for this year....

I think part of it is that funding drives funding: if you reach funding in minutes, and reach 1/2 million dollars, or over 1 million dollars within days, it will peak interest that will drive more sales. There is a very limited fan base that want another big adventure game with miniatures, so you drive funding with a higher all in price rather than more backers. So there's little incentive to get more 50-75$ dollar backers rather than convince the 100$+ backers to spend even more.

Absolutely agree. Thats the reason why i like the actual campaign of dragonbond lords of valaa. You get 2 games for 49 bucks (if we stretch up to 200k which is in the next few hours)! Thats amazing. Others are often too high priced...

Before the video: I think that board games could be inexpensive if they had a print your own option that included stl, pdf and jpeg files. Hopefully this will be the way of the future.

I haven't gotten through the whole video yet though I thought I would comment. When you were discussing Descent you mentioned the Miniatures and the 3D terrain. Just those by themselves don't justify the price even though the miniatures are gorgeous. You also have to consider that there are development costs associated with the App. Software development and design isn't cheap. With that said could it have been cheaper, possibly. Are board games getting expensive, most definitely.

it seems every project I look at is £100+ now. I appreciate costs have gone up and kickstarters are having to charge VAT now, but it's getting a bit much, although I guess a big thing is FOMO.. I don't need a new massive campaign game every month or loads of minis and buying them just so you don't miss out is unhealthy, but we all do it. I think games like The Thing and The Witcher have done it right where the core games comes with standees, keeps the cost of entry down but people who want all the minis can still add them. Just glad there's still great looking indy games at a good price like AMASS. we all love a nice Mini, but sometimes just some wooden cubes and dice are just as fun lol

If I pimp out my games, do I need to get an oversized fuzzy hat and matching outfit?

the biggest problem in boardgames right now imo is that quantity takes precedence over quality. nobody talks how good the story/gameplay is, just the number of hours/scenarios/minis per $

On the flipside, what I noticed with CMON Ankh, Is that 75% of the core game I’m never going to use, because of the deluxe components. That sure seems like a waste of a board and two sheets worth of beautiful cardboard components. I wonder how much money they could’ve saved. What is have been better to just put the deluxe version in the box? 🤔 Perhaps there’s a logistics issue, which makes it easier to just offer deluxe abide versions of the game, rather than multiple skews…

Hello. This is The Grumpy Meeple. How’s it going, King? So couple of thoughts: a.). Great interesting topic! b.). I don’t think we should try to infer the intent of the creators. I think our society in general (in the US at least) makes WAY too many unfounded assumptions about the intent behind people’s behavior, and as the future leaders of humanity, you and I and anyone smart enough to watch this channel should try to not fall into that trap. c.). I don’t think we should put a limit on or suggest a limit on the scope of a creator’s vision. For Arydia, just like Xia, they are clearly making a “one and done” luxury product; that’s their vision, and they should be welcomed to try and fulfill it. d.). I don’t think this is actually a problem. It’s not like there’s a dearth of sub-100 dollar games. Remember crowd funded gaming and these huge dungeon crawls are just sub-genres of tabletop; it’s not for everyone and there is nothing wrong with that. I would also point to the fact that Games Workshop has been creating products that require a multi-hundred/thousand dollar investment for 30+ years, and it hasn’t spelled the doom of the war gaming scene. e.). If this WAS a problem, then as a capitalist I have to think that the only way it can be or should be sorted out is by the market. If this is unsustainable (like video games in ‘83), then it’ll all get sorted out naturally. And heck, it’s not like the crash of ‘83 hurt the games industry long term or led to a decrease in quality…it paved the way for the NES and the eventual shift of video gaming from niche nerd stuff into a cornerstone part of modern pop-culture! Anywhoo, great video!

I came into the video assuming I would agree with you and was not disappointed. While I sometimes hate the FOMO generated by CMON, awaken realms, etc I do appreciate that they often have a core box that is affordable and then have their all ins and then also have most of the stuff in the all ins available (though not always with CMON) piecemeal so that if you have less money to spend you can still play and maybe you just pick up one extra expansion for 20-30$. Arydia, the new Descent, and so many others having these entry points over $150 makes it hard for many people to ever have the opportunity to play the game and honestly I just don’t think companies care. FFG is plenty big enough to offer a cheaper option they are actively choosing not too.

for the past 2 years I have barely bought any new or backed any KS. Instead I go for second hand with free shipping for half or less the price. Here in Australia, Descent is A$270-300 ludicrous but as long ppl still dumping money on their hobbies companies will keep over-producing, for the same amount I got second-hand Nemesis, Imperial Assault, Jaws of the Lion and The Crew.

I prefer GMT style components. I don't like standees but flat cardboard tokens and wooden pieces are great.

It's an interesting conversation - The concept of what am I willing to pay, versus what do I expect to see in a game. I think that I am getting spoiled from these and expect more overall out of the games, which means more cost. I don't want to dump money, but I also only bother looking at Kickstarter that tote a certain level of content and quality. I'm torn.

I feel like in the next 5 years there will be way less backers on these huge games just because of space and time like when will you have time to play all of stormsunder and oathsworn and nova aetas, hel the last saga, massive darkness 2 the list goes on. And where are you going to put those huge boxes? I am becoming much more selective now with what games to back.

I originally loved deluxe games components when the games felt like you were getting your money's worth! But now, that some companies are hiding VAT into the overall price, adding in excessive shipping for game that won't deliver for another 2 years, and maxing out the all in price with unnecessary expansions, I buy less than half of the games I did before.

Well for me, i do like the standee option to make games cheeper. On the other hand, since i don't paint myself I like to pay for painted miniatures if the games seems good enough. I do have a problem with the shippingcosts + taxes. This ads a lot of extra pressure on the price. Not the fault of the game producers but still..... We depend to much on the Chinese market. That's the biggest problem atm.

Pre Painted minis is their thing apparently.. just like Chips for CTG games. Hard to have this discussion without looking at CMON IMO.. why don't they produce token versions? Ultimately it's money as always.. it simply costs more and is more complex logistically to have multiple versions.

I definitely agree with you. The base game pledges should be cheaper. I would love to play Arydia, but $165 is too much for me. I have the same worries about Sankokushin. Their miniatures looks out of this world. But unfortunately my financial situation doesn’t support paying for them, and i worry that they won’t offer a standee version as a base pledge. At the same time there is also a problem with us consumers. Many of us buy more games, than we could ever play. So it’s also true that we should stop backing all kickstarters, and get the 5th dungeon clawer, when we haven’t even played the 2nd one we bought.

If miniatures are in my game I prefer the pre-painted or something like Sundrop. I no longer have the time or inclination to paint every bloody thing. That being said, I wish Arydia had a standee version with Hero Minis like Gloomhaven which should have reduced the cost down/under $100. The game itself is a 40 hour(ish) campaign that can be played again, but the world is fairly static, so how many playthroughs before you're no longer interested in pulling it off the shelf? The question to myself then is if I can justify $165 for a campaign game that most likely can be played 3 times [120 hours] before being benched.

100% agree. I love kickstarter extras. The deluxe components. The minis. You name it. I want those things to be optional though, because sometimes I am priced out of a game. I'd happily deluxify a 50 dollar game, but will not buy a 150 dollar game with mandatory minis.

Pre-painted minis is something negative for me (even if there was no added cost). I enjoy painting and it is a big part of why I would back a game with nice minis.

Yeah you're exactly right. I was so happy about the EZ pay option for Drunagor that allowed me to get the base game as well as the Apocalypse pack and Four Horsemen. Even without that tho, I liked how broken up it all was, letting ppl really pick and choose what they want/don't want, right down to purely cosmetic stuff like the special dice and board platforms and such. And even tho the Four Horsemen are expensive, compared to even remotely similar products that are retail, it's honestly a steal, and totally worth it as far as I'm concerned. I think all of the tabletop industry needs to lean hard into 3D printing. Make it more accessible, make it easier, and since it's already cheaper, they could therefore go wild with all the crazy extra stuff they want without breaking ppl's banks.

I think ultra high cost board games are a niche market but as long as the niche exists to support the games then so be it. As to the value of the games, if a group of four hangs out, grabs a bite to eat, & sees a movie then that is 76$ and up for 5 - 6 hrs of group entertainment. I am sure there are more & less expensive ways for a group of 4 to interact but you get the idea. 20× 76= 1520 for 100 hrs entertainment.

Cases in point: the new He-man games, in the recent Kickstarters. Pretty ludicrous the prices they charge! Overpriced Kickstarters set a bad precedence for future Kickstarters to come, and our wallets suffer for it. Update: I canceled my all in pledge masters of the universe and she-ra expansion, because it was all going to be close to $475 with shipping. I’ll just wait for retail and get the core box. I realized I would be the only one truly appreciating He-man, not my family.

I've always thought that if I can get 1 hour of play out of every dolor I spent, I think it was worth my money.

They’re expensive because the norm now is to produce games that have 100+ miniatures and give you no option to have standees. CMON are all about games with minis. Some of those games are mediocre and cost a fortune because of the minis. I also wonder, when is enough, enough? People probably have 100’s of games and most are sitting there collecting dust yet still buy more because “I have to have it”. I wouldn’t even have 100 games, possibly about 65-70 and even some of them are collecting dust. People also get suckered in by stretch goals “oh! I have to back this now because I’ll miss out on stretch goals”. Seriously.

Definitely agreed. Core games should be the basic option and if you want add ons then great, get them separately.

A lot of board games are too expensive, putting it into a luxury hobby. While you can get less expensive games through big stores, they're usually after the big craze from whatever the latest KS is as well as having less of a selection. There's a lot of value that you can get in some of these games; the social, playing the game, painting minis, making mods, etc. But the price point is a gatekeeper for many games.

The crux of the argument seems to be: "options are good". I have no argument. I agree.

The biggest reason I didn't back Primal was the lack of a standee level.

Thoughts before you say anything: I'm a guy with very limited money for hobbies. Minis based board games is the new hobby I'm getting very excited about, but yeah, they're crazy expensive (even more if i need to send the minis to ger painted or buy them pre-painted, since i don't have the time or the skill to paint them myself). And every game has a gazillion expansions so not only is the base game expensive, but i wont have the whole thing and my ODC will keep me up at night.

I am still salty about Grand Austria Hotel KS. They did deluxified version only of the expansion, and if you want this to match your retail copy of the core game, you have to get conversion kit. There was no way to get a normal expansion that fits with retail game.

There is no price to high if its for hoby that you are obssesed. That is the truth for every hoby i was in. Pc building and then there was downhill mounten biking and so on... And every time the same story.

Soo.. LMS is now live with the new Black Rose Wars KS, to me it really dont look like reprint, more like a new game with old rules, what do you think?

Agree with alot of what you said, commercialisation of ks has gone full circle now and now seeping into big box retail but I do think you have significantly underestimated the support and logistics aspects of "diversified " offering cost, all those languages, sku lines will all have testing, errors and configuration having costs. In a way painted arydia is kind of what ks should be for - that niche line you only want to do one production run on but yes there should be basic retail edition at low cost. Myself, I have dropped arydia to just $1, I still really like the look of the game but with a price pledge with the uncertainty of forex vat and shipping, now need to be smarter in what I back and how. The stretch goals are nice but not going to radically alter the offering that is now well funded. Creator behaviour drives backer behaviour and so on.

You raise some good points but it seems like a non issue to me. People complained to high heaven about Primal, then Monster Hunter came out and how did they tackle the perceived problem? By offering a crappy pledge with no stretch goals... I tend to agree that if you can't afford the game then just don't buy it. I can't afford most games. When Magic priced me out with their constant price increases, I just moved on to other things. It's frustrating but everyone is in different financial situations so while I'm appreciative of designers who make games with options, I also would rather they stay true to their artistic Vision and just make the best version of the game first. Keep up the good work.

The main reason I didn't pledge Arydia is because of the prepainted minis. To me, their offer is cutting them from both players that are bored about plastic and players that like minis BUT LOVE to paint them. The 240$ annouced price is a fake to give this feeling to really gain something, but this game will NEVER exist ans been sell at this price in a retail shop (my opinion). Anyway, they found a public, I hope they will enjoy because the idea was interesting.

i dont know, why they dont offer cardboard standies as option in addition to miniatures. Not everybody is into minis and painting and stuff... think this would halve the price tags.