Book Burning: Turtles All the Way Down (2/2) 

Archive.org is a great resource when trying to find deleted stuff. The blog post in question: web.archive.org/web/20140326193457/fishingboatproceeds.tumblr.com/post/57820644828/hey-john-i-was-just-wondering-what-your-explanation Great video!

"Welcome to my book: Two people are talking in a room. Sometimes they go outside." - John Green, actual quote

Those last seven minutes seems like REALLY good points on the nature of criticism. To all the other viewers, if you're gonna leave the video early, please at least try to watch these last seven minutes.

So here it is: the second half of my magnum opus. This was all originally intended to be one huge 2-hour video, but I thought that would be a bit much to just throw onto the channel all at once. I hope you all enjoy. Once again, apologies for the audio issues.

I guess you could say this video is... A slow burn.

As a barely published writer, I found this video quite helpful! Pointing out that musings and thesis statements take interpretative agency away from the reader made me do a once-over of my first, in-progress novel and had me cut a lot of unnecessary fluff. The issues in sequence and structure you pointed out made me fix a bunch of things, too, so thank you!

I don't like reading much but I like this channel and pretending I know what he's talking about Keep up the the good work!

I've been waiting for this. And thou hast delivered.

Paper Towns (which i read a long time ago, so rip if I'm wrong) outside out of the manic pixie dream girl I thought it was about idolisation and how we characature and stereotype other people. How we judge entirely off of perceptions when people are just as complicated as us. Which probably wasn't the exact point Green was going for but it's kind of close.

37:08 We did it. We killed the bird. We're free now

I can't really speak for John either but I believe the purpose of stepping away from using mental illness as a superpower is to respond specifically to the criticisms of romanticizing mental illness

I greatly enjoyed these two videos. I found that you were an honest critic, although I didn't agree with you wholesale (and why should I? We're two different people). I am a young adult who has read five John Green books with varying amounts of enjoyment, and your explanation of focalisation has helped me articulate why the books have a sameness to them. My biggest problem with Turtles All the Way Down arose from how they solved the mystery in what seemed to me a contrived manner. It felt more like a tied up loose end then a progression of the story. To defend John Green a little bit, when I read the argument between Daisy and Aza, I imagined that Aza's responses were to quiet for Daisy to hear. Daisy wasn't purposefully ignoring them, but Aza didn't have the confidence to counter Daisy loudly enough. Although John Green did use words like "whispered" and "quietly", it wasn't the clearest interpretation in the world. In this sense, I didn't find the topic of their nuanced relationship tarnished, especially as it painted the picture that Aza tries to assure herself she does listen while also giving credence to Daisy. This discrepancy causes an internal conflict within Aza, someone who is sick of being pushed around yet doesn't want to step on toes, so she eventually starts crying and becomes distracted.

I really enjoyed the set up and execution of that last joke.

Holy shit, an hour!? Well, time to make some popcorn :)

Hey thanks for making this video. The conclusion really spoke to me (me being a teenager and all) and I hope you can continue to make these videos

Strangely enough, your analysis of John Green reminds me very much of the discussion surrounding Star Wars: The Last Jedi (of all things). The primary issue with writers like Green is that they are so opinionated as human beings that their writings treat their concepts as arguments to be given to the reader rather than explorations of interesting topics. The act of subversion can be a very powerful tool to disarm the audience as a way of introducing new ideas that they may not have been open to otherwise, but that isn't what Green (or TLJ) does. In treating the subversion of the trope as the punchline in and of itself - instead of a setup for deeper exploration - the reader is left to infer what the meaning of the subversion is. This is exceptionally polarizing because the reader is either A) already in agreement with the author about the analysis of the trope in question, B) is actually a fan of the trope or C) doesn't have strong opinions about the concept one way or the other. If they are already on board with the author's thesis, then the subversion alone may be enough to make the reader feel clever for having "seen through the obvious" but in either of the other two scenarios the reader is left with the feeling that, at best, the author is trying to prove they are more clever than their readers or, at worst, the author actively holds their audience in contempt. If you already hate the "manic pixie dream girl" trope, then just the subversion of the trope is enough to leave you satisfied. However, if you like the trope or simply don't care, you will be left with the feeling that the story is completely pointless and possibly even making fun of you. If he wanted the subversion to work, he would need to show how the image of Margot as a "manic pixie dream girl" actively harms her, but, instead, Margot is left mildly annoyed and the story just ends without making any further statements. It honestly reminds me of how most Reddit posts are structured. The substance of the point Green tries to make in his stories is declared very strongly, in a manner that draws clear delineation between right and wrong, but utterly fails to define any deeper meaning behind his exploration, assuming that the audience has already made up its mind on where they stand with his analysis. Either you agree with the statement on you are left with the impression that "you aren't welcome here". Another example would be the passage you showed wherein Aza describes how "virginity is a patriarchal concept to oppress women" (rough paraphrase, I know). This statement is highly polarizing because it doesn't make much sense for a character like Aza, who isn't shown to be overly politically motivated, to use language that seems better suited to a college gender studies major and thus feels very much like Green inserting himself into the story by assuming Aza's skin. If you already agree with the statement about virginity itself, than the passage can come across as "relatable" or "profound" but everyone else will just feel like they are being called dumb for naturally assuming that a teenage girl would be less sexually aggressive than a teenage boy without any reason given as to why they would be wrong to assume that or why that assumption is even harmful to begin with. The end result is a book that feels like an overly verbose thesis paper wherein young adult characters are acting as glorified mouthpieces for Green himself as he attempts to make some subversive point about some problem with society as a whole that he will make very strongly (and charged with heavy moralization) without actually defining WHY he finds that topic to be an issue in the first place. The flip side of this would be something like Catcher in the Rye, wherein the trope of "angsty teenage boy who sees through society's BS (man!)" is deconstructed by showing how that self-image is nothing more than a front Holden utilizes to avoid actually dealing with his problems. The trope itself is also shown to be harmful in the way that Holden surrounds himself with people who exclusively buy into and reinforce his own 2D self-image and, in so doing, enable his avoidance of responsibility and self-improvement. The incuriousness with which every character engages with that very trope encourages Holden's warped perception of the real world and does very real damage to his life in the process. If you only subvert a trope as the point in and of itself - and mix that with a heavy helping of moralistic declarations - then the audience will either find his work to be a "masterful exploration of modern society" or an "annoying and preachy waste of time" depending entirely on whether or not they already agree with the point being made. Much like The Last Jedi, while some people may enjoy the subversive reveal as a nice break from a trope that is actively problematic - or just overused, at the very least -, those who don't care or find a lot of meaning in that trope will find themselves feeling like they have been deliberately targeted by a mean-spirited author. This is the reason, I believe, why peoples' response to these types of stories is so personal and powerful. Ironically, the visceral negative reaction that people feel regarding these stories often serves to only fuel the author's feelings of vindication, as though they have stumbled upon some hidden truth that their detractors hate because it states some form of "ugly truth" (congratulations on successfully OWNING the libs). Thus the cycle continues and the author's polarity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So the manic pixie dream girl thing was subverted because it was a very common claim that Green faced. It was a reaction to his critics and a reaction to the now mostly dead now trope of the manic pixie dream girl. I feel like it was a reaction to a trope that was popular 10 years ago and was lobbed at him nigh constantly.

Thank you for sticking to it and making these videos! As always, I stayed entertained throughout. Honestly, your videos on John Green have actually made me /want/ to read at least one. Before, I couldn't care less. I don't know if this was an intended effect.

I loved this video alot, but I want to focus on 1:06:40 This passage right here actually did what you were talking about because there was always something that bugged me about the criticisms that ppl only listen to reviews to hear their opinions parroted back at them. I understand the frustrations that the ppl who give this criticism have (mainly that diverse perspectives get pushed out in favor of the majority), but there is value in having someone articulate the thoughts in the viewer's mind. Another thing I liked was the topic of focalisation and how that can help or hurt a novel. This seems to be a problem unique to literature and one that can be quite difficult to overcome as evidenced by this novel. I actually saw another video essay talking about how video games can't be analyzed using the traditional perspectives found in literary analysis.

That wait a minute at the end ooooh

I would really love to see you make a short video on your thoughts of what strengths and weaknesses the Written Word has over visual storytelling such as Comics and Film. You've peppered these ideas through your previous reviews, but a video condensing your opinions in one spot would be pretty insightful for your audience I'm sure.

I love these videos, they're so useful for learning more about storytelling.

The odd thing is that today is my birthday. So this had to be the best present I could've gotten.

here for my yearly rewatch for writing criticism to see what I can put into my writing :)

The problem with deconstructing the manic pixie dream girl trope was that the original one. Or the girl who brought it into popular consciousness was that. Like the whole point of Scott Pilgrim (comic) was that the both of them were working through their personal baggage.

Hey. I recently discovered your channel and I really like your videos. Keep up the good work! :)

YAAAAAAAS I was waiting for this

I may never be a professional writer but these vids do help a surprisingly large amount. Food for thought, I stumbled over something strange in the Eragon books, the story started out in a way that set off a huge De Ja Vu trip and I couldn't place it. by the third book things started to feel like the character had started to get towards DBZ levels of strength and i found it... silly. the last book I couldn't bring myself to read as I was terrified the man was about to destroy all the characters I had grown to like either through silly magic or the villain was going to obliterate them. Had to listen to the book as an audio book and still have not physically read through it. I dont know what i stumbled upon but the book series was good over all but it had strange quirks to it that I cant quite put fancy words to

To be honest, watching this video and some conversations with friends made me realize something completely unrelated to this video: The people who talk about (arguably) ,,important" works the most(like 1984, Nothing, and for the YA audience, John Green's books), are the ones who understand them the least. And dont worry, i'm not here to bash on Cloud, i think most of his criticism raised here is valid, and i'm saying this as a self proclaimed fan of John Green. So far, I've read from Green (in this order) The Fault in our stars at 15, Looking for Alaska earlier this year (which i enjoyed the most, BY FAR), and Turtles, also earlier this year. I've had several conversations with several different people about all of them, and what fascinated me the most was how different an experience people got out of his books depending on how many other books they've read. The best example to this i can think of is with TFiOS, which i thought was okay, but nothing earthshattering. Upon discussing it with a friend who really loved it, when asked about why she loved it, she responded: ,,Above all else, because I expected the story to turn out well in the end. The fact that one of them died really surprised me." And i was utterly dumbfounded, because even with years passing since my experience with the book, i still distinctly remember Hazel making it pretty clear well before meating Augustus that she herself cannot survive for a very long time. Because of the medicine she's taking, she might survive for a while, but she will die in a year r two at best and has no chance of getting better, ever! So, even without spoilers, i knew that one of them will die, i just wasn't sure whether it would be Augustus or Hazel. The same problem persists in my oppinion with many of the people who say John Green writes the same story over and over again. I always have to ask myself whether these people have even read any contemporary YA book at all, let alone one by Green. Because in the modern YA scene, John Green is without question the crown jewel. Look at the Hunger Games, Maze Runner and Divergent series, the Big Three of YA fiction. Three trilogies from three different people, who somehow all managed to write the exact same story completely independently of each other. With that existing and being tolerated (and celebrated, in some circles for some fucked up reason that i'll never understand), i think it is more than a little unfair to say Green writes the same story again and again just because all his works are in the same genre and are narrated similarly. John Green has issues with his writing. Yes. As we've seen, even he is aware of that. But calling him a bad writer or someone who writes the same shit many times is bullshit, IMHO.

Some good stuff in these videos overall although i don't agree with many parts. Personally one of my favorite things about John Green's writing is when his characters have those "musing" thoughts about stuff while it's happeneing because my brain does that constantly in real life and I had never really seen my own thought patterns captured in a character until I read a John Green book. Particularly Turtles Alll the Way Down. I find internal character processes more interesting than stories so while I do see how his stories often suffer it doesn't bother me as much as it might others. I also didn't really enjoy Paper Towns while I read it but it was a book that stuck with me and I liked it a lot after having read it unlike an Abundance of Katherines, Looking for Alaska or the Fault in Our Stars which I felt were all just fine. I loved Turtles All the Way Down a lot but at the same time since I share some similar brain issues as the main character it also sent me into a bit of a depressive episode cause I'm prone to that. I have to be careful about books sometimes fot that reason. It did frustrate me when you mentioned how you didn't have experience or that much knowledge of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl or the romantisized mental illness tropes and the harm they do. Yes i do think your experience as somone who wouldn't be affected by either thing makes your opinion on the matter less meaningful and as someone who is closer to both groups affected I really enjoyed Green's ideas and work with both in mind. It was far from perfect but I liked the effort and I think it was pretty dang decent. All that said I appreciated the work you put into these videos and i think you are a very fair and articulate critic. Thanks for making this

Very nicely done! The tie-ins at the end were well done. I definitely agree that you've explained and analysed enough to say you aren't simply repeating common critique, and liked the quote of Green acknowledging these faults. Overall, loving the analysis as it's encouraging myself to be more critical and thoughtful about what I'm reading. Any idea what you're going to work on next? Maybe some more terrible owl based fiction?

When i first read john green, i found the story _fine_ but thought his writing was mediocre; i tried to find some criticism on that but things that i found were… unhelpful. This video is exactly what i was looking for and it really helps me express my thoughts! 🙏

I'm an aspiring writer and I do find your videos helpful. :3I'm fond of a book that I think might interest you: "The Nothing Girl" by Jodi Taylor. The protagonist is a young woman made to believe she's mentally unwell by her adoptive aunt and uncle. It's grounded in reality... apart from her having a guardian angel(?) in the form of an talking horse who helps her decide what to say and how to cope with the world.

should have named this video 'angry birds'

I think you should check out the Locked Tomb trilogy. The third book isnt out yet but I think it does something really good with the narrator and limited scope of how the story is told

Book Burning on Paper Towns!!! Yay!!!

Woo~!

#justiceformychal

2:49 the sequel to catherine

I just found your channel and watched part one four hours ago -- how the FUCK did you know?

Braco! That was an excellent two part excursion! What are you going to do next now that you've gotten through your thoughts on John Gre- *I'M RELEASING A NEW BOOK EVERYBODY* ... Oh... Well... I'll throw in a couple copies of Alyson Noel's "Evermore" while you prep the surprise part 3..

Hey, as soon as i finished the book i came to see your video. I don't really agree with your other John Green videos (specially TFIOS) but thank god, was about time some serius discussion on Johrn Green's books, and not on the same critical shit that fits in a 10 minut vlog

Whelp, let it burn.

Seeing as you included it in the visuals of the video, it begs the question. What is your opinion on the Harry Potter series?

Idk if you've already been asked this before, but what generally do you dislike about Paper Towns? Do you consider the book/movie worse, and why? I like your breakdowns of John Green and others, so your description of Paper Towns as "fucking awful" makes me curious.

What are your opinions on War/History novels and would you consider covering "All Quiet on the Western Front"?

I threw up a bit on the part with sex and virginity.

Have you read Slaughterhouse 5, and if so what are your thoughts?

Hey. You're neat.

Ever read Time Enough For Love?

John deleted his Tumblr cause people on Tumblr bullied him off and he was probably frustrated cause of the bullying.

what part of the us does this book take place in? i have never heard of an american using the word "spade for a Shovel" just curious.

Can anyone recommend me any good book youtubers?

Bojack horseman did the internal voice better

oh BOY would these two videos have been vastly improved if the person you got to read the lines from the book was even slightly up to the task. the way they kept putting emphasis on the wrong words and pausing in the wrong places as if they weren't actually parsing what they were reading and instead just reading it out word by word, as well as the repetitive decending cadence of every.single.sentence. made those sections so grating I almost had to give up on the video every time one of them started. I understand they might be your friend but wow you really should've just read those sections yourself after hearing their attempts at it.