Box Controllers = Cheating? 

I'm in my early 30s. The other day I decided I wanted to start practicing tech so that I could even just have fun in online Melee play for the first time in my life. (Have always loved the game but never been any good at it.) After practicing wave dashes for like 30 minutes my hands felt like they had aged another 10 years and were in legitimate pain. Literally the next morning I ordered a Boxx style controller. I will NEVER be a good competitive player, but I am not going to fuck my hands up just to enter the game at a competent level.

We ban things when they don't represent a skill that we value. We banned items not because they're random, but because when you say "Best Melee player in the world" you don't care who is the best at using motion sensor bombs. We value instead things like game knowledge, spacing, timing, reads, and mental game. So for boxes, is the ability to maneuver the analog stick correctly something that we care about so much that it's worth banning boxes? And if it is, why do we allow notches which specifically bypass the need to be precise with analog stick positioning?

I agree with mostly everything you said here. Boxx controllers definitely make a lot of things more consistent (and some easier) but after playing on it for 6 months I went back to GCC because I could never do the micromovements that I could do on gcc. Since all your angles are static it feels more robotic to me. One of my favorite aspects of the game is the fluidity of movement. I know this doesn't matter in the long run as it doesn't effect competitive play but I wanted to put that out there. A lot of people have this idea that boxx controllers are just gcc with buffs but in reality they aren't and play quite a bit different which makes this a more complex issue. I don't know what the solution is but there is definitely a lot of discussions to be had in order to come up with one.

Never forget hboxs dramatic speech where he talks about how Melee is hard for everyone (cause he kept getting made fun of for using Puff) ... except boxx players I guess? Lol

Extremely well reasoned video! The acknowledgement of the subjectivity of these kinds of issues (as well as disclosing ones one bias) is a show of good faith. I'm just a casual so I don't have a huge stake in this whole debate but its pretty interesting to me. Is there a widely known obstacle why smashsticks haven't been developed? Have the rectangle developers said anything? I have no technical understanding of what it would involve, but it seems like such an obvious fix and its weird that it exists only as a theoretical talking point

Good video, that brings up a bigger problem within the scene - complaining without intent of having a discussion or offering any solutions is unproductive, selfish, and self-indulgent. It's the part of the Melee community that has not matured. Everyone should watch the whole video.

The two things I can compare this two in recent memory are the soft ban on stalling (with the ledge grab limit) and the hard ban on wobbling. Playing against stalling is un-interactive, unfun to play and watch, and is detrimental to the entertainment value and longevity of the game. While wobbling was also legal, it led to a very stale meta for a character, a no-counterplay method of play, and to most players, it felt unfair to be guaranteed a lost stock due to one grab. While both of those didn't dominate top-level play, we could clearly see the issue they were bringing to the game. Nobody wants to be trapped in a wobble, and nobody wants to watch Jigglypuff grab the ledge for 8 minutes. So boxes would have to be THAT level of bad to be ban-worthy, and I don't think they're even close. It's a different controller to play the game. No different than those super-modded GCC's with notches, hall-effect sensors and no springs in the triggers. It's more consistent and that's about it. I don't think it should be banned.

Thanks for the video Mr Squeak. Any opinions on analog dispersion as a potential nerf?

I use a 8bitdo arcade stick Advantages: 1. My wrist can change directions faster than my thumb can, and didn't get tired as quickly. 2. I use three fingers on face buttons instead of my thumb and index which again, feels faster. 3. The buttons simply feel more satisfying to push (placebo but not, nothing). Disadvantages: 1. to walk I have to input a perfect 45° upward angle. Which is also how I need to input tilts because ... 2. No c-stick, major downside but depending on character choice not necessarily a deal breaker. Something I don't hear anyone talk about is that just re-learning the game on a new format actually had major benefits. It's like learning the game from scratch but with all the wisdom of experience. The 8bitdo arcade is not a controller any serious person would use. But I dropped bad habits, and cleaned up my movement in a major way from learning to use it. Just my 2 cents.

Good job approaching such an emotional debate in such a systematic and level-headed way. Even though you hold a lot of stake in this, you didn't get carried away by all the shouting and all the accusations being thrown around.

I'd rather live in a world where a controller works the way it should and not just fail for no good reason. The fact that pros have to have a mountain of controllers just to find one that does what they need is just kneecapping yourself.

I've always preferred gc controller, who doesn't, but I'm arthritic so for me it's box or no melee at all

Subbed here when i saw u tweet that u wanted to do more in depth melee stuff. Glad to see the upload!

Agree with a lot of this - hate the last point. Ruling decisions regarding box controllers affect a lot more people than just Pipsqueak, Swift and Zuppy. These random mid-level players that everyone seems to disregard are the lifeblood of the scene. Dudes working a 9-5 that just love the game aren’t going to be upsetting Hbox bc they’re on a box controller. I think it’s fucked up to hand-wave the concept of telling people with hand problems that they can’t play anymore because a small subsection of players decided to ban the controllers that don’t break your hands. The B0xx was originally built as an accessibility solution. That’s not something that can be separated from the discussion and it’s a false equivalency to compare an accessibility solution to an uncompetitive technique in wobbling.

I have a question bc I’ve never played on box, when you are holding a direction then hold the opposite direction without letting go, what happens? I think a nerf could be balanced when it comes to that specific interaction because it is really important to a lot of the things people hate about box.

Pip solo podcast when?

Great video, love how grounded you tackled this topic. I think it's important to disconnect the controller discussion from individual players. Everyone's adhering to the rules as set by the tournaments. No one is a cheater. We didn't remove all IC's results after we banned wobbling. Good players that use a rectangle, are good players. IMO nerfing the rectangles will never work, or rather won't ever satisfy everyone. There's some interesting nerfs for specific techniques, but we'll never get to an agreed equality with GCCs. You seem to agree in a way that a SmashStick will take away a lot of the controversy around the rectangles. At least that's what I think and it felt like you were implying that. (Thank you for also covering this topic btw, I haven't heard anyone talk about this seriously in relation to rectangles) Pretty much all of the discussion is about the digitizing of the analog stick. This could be very easily "solved" by announcing a ban on regular rectangles that takes affect in 1 year. (or more) Anything that doesn't use an analog stick is banned and controller makers get enough time to build alternatives. I know this is unrealistic, as the Melee community can never make up its mind about anything. And I know I'm just a spectator and rectangles aren't dominant. But to me their design does feel inherently unbalanced when compared to GCC, which is the messy standard we have for this game. Hell, I've seen jokes that we should just ban GCCs and only play on rectangles to make the playing field more even, which is hilariously true. On a side note, have you ever tried a B0xx with Wii Nunchuck? That's basically a SmashStick with extra steps, though I can't think of anyone that actually uses that setup in tournament.

great video and really well articulated thoughts throughout the whole thing. Will re-visit again need some time to digest all this info lol

It's really surprising to me that no one's developed a smash stick yet. Like how hard could it be to just throw a gamecube controller layout on a flat surface with bigger and maybe more buttons cause you can't do analogue inputs with buttons?

Great video Pip! Three problems I feel are worth mentioning: 1) People (even controller experts) drive controller discourse on things they don't understand. For example, the technical requirements of performing stuff like pivot jab, utilt, dtilt, uaft, daft, and ftilt. It's likely people haven't practiced pivot utilts a day in their lives, nor do they know what techniques even exist to perform them. They don't know what makes these techniques easier or harder. They have no real idea of their reliability either. They probably don't understand details like how pivot ftilt (straight) vs fsmash with analog stick is actually polling-related, etc. Their only argument is that since most people don't know how to do it, and since they don't know how to do it, it's not possible to do it on gcc. In the case of pivot jab, utilt and dtilt (frame 2-3 timing), uaft and daft (frame 1), these techniques exist. However, the people who will ultimately decide the legality for these techniques and how quickly they should be done, have no technical understanding of how they are performed on gcc. Yet they will be the ones shaping the discourse of what is acceptable. To me this feels like if b0xx released in the early 2000's and the community banned shield drop coordinates because "gcc's can't reliably do them", when in reality, axe shield dropping exists and a few people are out there actually using it. However, because the majority of players "can't be bothered" to learn it, or simply don't know that techniques exist to do them, they just ban it instead. 2) People also don't understand that "buffs" are not always objectively better in every way. While I'm personally a fan of a travel time "nerf" I disagree that it's solely a nerf. Everything has two sides. Sometimes the natural travel time of the stick prevents various mistakes that you would never see on a gcc, but happen on a box because it's easier to rush the inputs and do them too quickly. So while it's a nerf on paper, I think it's also a good quality of life buff for box users in avoiding certain weird input errors. Another example: If how a move is supposed to be used naturally aligns with the average human's reaction window, then it becomes easier to use in those situations. This can be considered a buff for reaction-based things that might normally be difficult because the move just naturally "times itself". Meanwhile aligning it may actually entail slowing the move down. Did you know that if Marth's dair came out 1 frame slower he'd have a 13 galint AC dair off ledge on every stage? Sometimes a nerf can be a buff, and sometimes faster isn't necessarily always "better". It all depends on the tradeoffs and the context. When evaluating fairness, smashers need to do a better job at understanding the tradeoffs and context of buffs, nerfs, and more importantly, the difference between controllers. Just because something is different and better in one context doesn't mean it's universally better. We need to exercise more nuance in our evaluation of these things. 3) Smash players are notorious for exaggerating the impact of LITERALLY ANY difference between a gcc and a box and then hyper-focusing their attention on it, as if that's the reason they lost a set. Let's say some one-off single-frame box-specific thing "won" the other player a set in a last-hit last-stock scenario... smash players will be like "BRO BOX CHEATING LITERALLY COST ME THE ENTIRE SET". Bro... it may have happened a single time over the entire set. You made 100 bad decisions probably. You failed to adapt to the situations they were putting you in. You failed to execute things that would have made the match-up harder. You dropped guaranteed punishes. You failed to edgeguard cleanly. You played the match-up sub-optimally due to your personal style, etc., etc. But somehow, THAT is the singular and most important reason for why you lost. The reality is this: Most players accept insane character imbalance at that character select screen, and then insane imbalance at the stage select screen, but suddenly their controller imbalance which comparatively has an almost insignificant effect on the outcome of the match compared to their decision making, character and stage selection choices, is the reason for their loss. Yes preventable imbalance is bad, but let's stop acting like every single difference is absolutely gamebreakingly unfair. That shit is getting old. Once again, thanks for the video. Sorry for the long post but I felt it was worth adding to the discussion.

What if we gave box players tripping?

My question is when did we decide it is time for controllers to stop evolving? I think the whole argument against box only exists because some players don’t want to relearn on a new input device but they recognize that it is better so rather than taking the time to learn it they villainize it.

Great video as always Pip In my Samus corner still inhaling full Copium about getting full length WD for WD-based characters whilst nerfing dashdance by a similar % that WD gets right now for DD-based characters. So sad as a Samus rn to get insanely nerfed movement (WD angles on controller is just way longer), when you see CFs moving like a new character with a 20% speed boost DDs from the piano-style controllers.

You mentioned both goomwaves and phobs having macros and then go on to only list macros for goomwaves. From what I have heard, Phobs should not have macros. Am I mistaken, is there evidence pointing to the contrary?

Lol boxx is "cheating" but not Goomwaves etc okk. This is the reason I quit melee after 10 years and play ultimate. Pros can be so elitist they won't even advocate 1.03 but they'll cry about people using box to help hand pain but at the same time want people to pay hundreds for GameCube controllers Top players throw fits in melee but this doesn't happen in ultimate

I only gave Melee a chance because the Smashbox exist and if that was banned, I’d not wanna play anymore and move to another game.

Love the depth, clarity, and actual thorough considerations in this video. It sounds like the only solution is a single box design as standard with all the design considerations documented (e.g. b0xx) Edit: Halfway through and you've covered so many aspects of the problem I don't have anything to add

55:20 one thing to note, not all games (for some reason) properly SOCD clean and there was a situation where a controller WAS banned because the controller itself also didnt SOCD clean. This makes sense but it gets so much more complicated with analog games like melee where there isnt just 8 movement directions

I appreciate how difficult it must be to make a video like this. Regardless, it’s good to have thoughts from an actual boxx user

i don't agree with any nerfs but i really appreciate your call for transparency, as that is by far my biggest issue with the entire discourse atm.

Wow this is a great talk. Thank you for putting this out there. Takes a lot of courage.

I want to see a tournament that only allows vanilla smash 4 controllers and see if all these different controllers really makes a difference in tournament results.

I think the reason besides bias that top players don't switch to the perfect controller is that they cannot really afford to lose, this is their life and it takes more than a month it's easier to shit talk a controller then lose money or content for 2 months to still be better than the top 100

What play is everyone talking about exactly

BTW the switching the code on dolphin doesn't go to perfect. It just defaults to the Firefox angles. Which are legal fwiw

One thing that I at least would like to add to this conversation is that learning to play the game on keyboard (which is essentially a box) is really common due to slippi's popularity and the difficulty of accessing a decent controller. While I agree that the box needs some nerfs I feel that outright banning the easiest controller access would hurt a lot of beginner and low level players who only play slippi.

Thoughts from an outsider with no horse in the race: 1. Box style controllers offer a clear competitive advantage over GameCube style controllers. 2. The banning of Box style controllers would negatively affect many established players in the scene as well as newer players in an unfair way. This leads to a crossroads in the Melee community. Either the community bans Box style controllers in order to create a more legitimate competitive experience, or the community keeps them around with nerfs in order to maintain accessibility and to prevent players being forced to leave the game. Both of these options have undesirable outcomes combined with the fact that the Melee scene has no governing authority in terms of rules decisions has lead to a complete lack of change. Despite the correct decision regarding Box controllers as a whole being ambiguous at best, the controversy presents an obvious reality that the Melee community needs to address. It is mandatory that some kind of system is developed to create consistent authority. Like Pip said in the video, people talking past each other without any real solutions is unacceptable. Years of this issue persisting without any change is unacceptable. As a side note, calling people “cheaters” and things of the sort is not only unhelpful and hurtful, it’s inaccurate. People play to win, and under the current system, Box controllers are completely legal. Someone taking advantage of the rule set to succeed is not the fault of the player; it’s the fault of the system. Overall, I think Box style controllers should never have been allowed, but are now too integrated into the system to be banned. However, nerfs and changes are necessary and should have happened long ago. What’s really important is how Boxes highlighted the real issue in the community: a lack hierarchy and consistency in terms of the rules. People are not just playing this game in a basement for bragging rights anymore. It’s a legitimate, popular esport that has no sign of slowing down. The community needs to act like it. Pokémon Stadium should not be constantly switching between frozen and unfrozen, people complaining on Twitter should not be the primary method of discourse, and controllers need to be consistently regulated.

I personally actually really like box for the reason that I have issues with my wrists and it's far nicer on them for me than controller/stick

Just curious what rebuttal there is when this argument is presented, "If the box is OP, why not just get a box"

Also, couldn't you mod a digital GameCube controller?

I think you have to either update the software so everyone can have 1.0 cardinal and remap buttons, or ban everything. And I’m talking goomwave, z jump, everything. Imagine if armada and m2k had this sort of stuff.

Don't let them get to you king you dropped this 👑

good video IMO as someone who's coming at this as a platfighter guy (my main game is roa but i dabble in almost every other one) the constant controller politics in the melee community is both unheard of and always comes off as just, dumb Will boxes/keyboards make techskill easier? yea, that's just, the nature of digital vs analog controllers and the only game i can think of where a box/keyboard player dominated is sandstorm in brawlhalla and that game does not need precision. I think if melee players just got there heads out of there asses and just accepted "hey, I actually dont care abt this" then the community would be better off. The difference between wobbling and box is that box isn't a automatic win in a department of the game, slight ease of use doesn't make waveshining INSTANT and make it so little jimmy can hit like mang0, but wobbling did and a lot ppl use wobbling as a crutch while they were learning the game. TL;DR y'all should bring back no johns

The ‘stealth buffing’ and ‘unknown source code’ is the biggest problem with boxes in my opinion. You don’t want to have someone hook up something at a tournament that is literally a …black box.

My biggest issue with the box/goomwave controllers is the barrier to entry. If I want to get one it’s pretty nontrivial. They’re both way more expensive and they’re not in stock. I don’t even know how to get a goomwave. I like what the controllers fix about normal gc controllers, but the barrier to getting one for an average player is too high and makes it kinda pay to win.

I still think that is Incredible how everyone wants to balance this controllers, but when everyone starts talking about it, they pretend that 1.03 doesn't exist.

Great video!! Champion of the community

1 week of playing B0xx and being able to play without finger pain is such a relief. Even then I believe rectangle controllers should have regulated coordinates to avoid certain stuff and tournament legal firmware that so people don't have like Icies d-sync mod buttons, Pikachu douvle vertical up-b, etc.

i don't think that having your desired inputs read properly counts as cheating, and it isn't unfair. (assuming one button = one input) top players seem to not like the box style controllers not just because they think they are better, but because they think they are better AND they don't want to switch. if all the functionality of a box controller was available in a GameCube style controller, everyone would use and love it.

I think the box can stay honestly but I do think moderating peoples setups for it is something that should be looked into. If you prefer buttons over a stick you should be able to play the game that way but maybe some of the macros you (you as in general people) use should be looked at. Also hej ifrån Jönköping.

what is separating controllers and boxxes? is it only bugs that plague every controller like c stick bugs and no dashback, or is there a different advantage boxx users have despite inputting everything the same as a pad (no macros). If boxx users actually get all the inputs in the game and gcc doesnt, wouldnt that mean that in reality boxx is more true to the competitive nature of the game, considering that gcc players are being held back by their inputs not coming out? Looking at it from this perspective it makes it look like top players who dont like boxx are trying to gatekeep players lol. edit: Obviously people like mango take pride in the fact that one of the reasons he is better then the playerbase is because of his execution, i seen a clip of him contemplating what makes melee cool being a fighting game or an execution test game. But if the timing is still there with boxx style controllers, then they still have an execution barrier as well and are simply not being held back by a controller that may or may not be shitty depending on luck. Lol there is no evil to taking the bugs out of the game that were in the game from launch... would we still even play this game if there was no ucf or online or stuff like that probably not. So what separates ucf and online practice from the boxx controller and goomwaves? They all inherently do the same thing take the bugs out of the hardware or software and make the game more accessible. He calls it evil but if not for all this stuff (which has been content for the past few years and you could argue is the lifeblood of this 20+ year old game) he wouldnt be streaming melee anymore, and if he knew business he wouldnt call boxx and goomwave evil when all it does is market the game to a wider audience. Pretty much any online community is only as good as its influencers, the reason everyone shits on boxx is because top players like mango shit on it and social media are just echo chambers at the end of the day. i remember when boxx first came out it was being marketed as an alternative to getting arthritis, now everyone is just toxic lmao

I don't know if I would so far as to say that using a Boxx is cheating, but it does provide players with an undeniable mechanical advantage. While most things can be done on both Boxx and controller, there are still things that Boxx can do that controller can't do. When it comes to a competitive environment, I believe that both sides should have all the same opportunities and options. It is then up to the player to utilize those options to the best of their ability to win. However I don't think it's fair when one side just doesn't have the opportunities that the the other side does. I think the biggest problem is something that you mentioned. Regulation. I don't think that the Boxx should be outright banned because of the fact that it helps people play the game that wouldn't physically be capable otherwise. We should always strive to make our community as accessable as possible to new players, and the Boxx objectively helps with that and also with retaining players that are developing problems. What we need is firm regulation on what is and isn't allowed to be done with the Boxx in a tournament setting. If a controller can do everything that the Boxx can, then there wouldn't be as much of an issue. There will always be unreasonable people like Bobby, but that is inevitable.

Thoughts on B0XX with Nunchuk?

I think Falco not being able to wavedash as far is a pretty rough nerf for him

The controller issue is not at the mid/low level but the top level of play

I have a hereditary degenerative hand disease. My father is about to lose a finger soon. If the b0xx is banned I'm probably going to have to quit my favorite game. Pretty messed up

In my opinion, there should be no limitation in controllers (unless they somehow implement literal cheats). The whole point of competitive games is to reach the pinnacle of possibility of play. And if rectangles are the way to truly see that, I’m all for it. To me, it’s like professional esport shooter games. Gamecube controllers to me are the mice of old: I’m talking Zowie 500 hertz type mice; mice that are completely outdated but people still use them because they enjoy the consistency. However, in my opinion it’s important to recognize that eventually this old equipment gets outperformed and replaced, and that is the era this game should also strive towards. I just want to see Melee - and every game, in fact - to reach its complete, maximum potential. I say remove almost all controller restrictions and let the game be played perfectly. If it’s possible in the engine, the controllers should be able to bring out the full extent of that engine.

just a random scrub but thanks Pip because in a community without a governing body, I think truly exceptional people are allowed and even must stand up and speak out. I hope you keep holding it down for Melee in the Eurolands and come to the states again soon.

I think Bobbies argument is a little more nuanced than you made it out to be. To me, the complaint felt closer to "you can't do x with a regular controller" which hits a little differently than "cheater!" Looking at another past generation videogame like Mario on the NES, there are movements (that can result in faster accelerations) that cannot be accomplished with a regular NES controller that hasn't been modified, but *can* be accomplished on a modified controller or on a keyboard. A world record for that game achieved using these illegal movements wouldn't be recognized as legitimate in the same way as a world record achieved without using those kinds of movements. Compared to this smash situation, that'd pretty much equate to the asterisk. I can understand why that'd be annoying but if people are going to be allowed to continue using these kinds of controllers I don't think it's much of a compromise to have to make. The asterisk would be useful for people that had played the game in the past but don't keep up with its current events- they see a player pull off movements that they couldn't have possibly done regardless of the amount of practice they had and instead of being misled to believe that they didn't actually understand the physics and mechanics of the game they're watching, they can go on to quickly discover that "oh, it's not that I didn't understand the game*(citation needed) it's just that this person I'm watching is doing the equivalent of pressing left and right at the same time in Mario on the NES. Something that I couldn't have done without cheating." Yeah?

Box type controllers are more like basketball shoes. There better to play on the court than normal running shoes. Should we ban basketball shoes cause everyone only wants to use running shoes? When basketball shoes are 100+ dollars and are specifically made for Basketball? But everyone in Basketball think its just natural to use those shoes. Even people who play basketball for fun use basketball shoes.Frame1 controllers allow melee to be played better and more consistent, its cheaper than modded gamecube controller, so I dont see the problem, people are just lazy to learn something new after so many years with Gc which is fine. Should it be nerfed? Sure but i don’t think that should make boxx type controllers banned worthy.

really appreciate this video amidst how toxic this discourse has gotten. you were very level-headed and reasonable here.

posting this before finishing the video, but I'm a hitbox player in traditional fighting games and we have people who complain like this in our scene. I think it's silly, and it's amazing when the standard 'get good' line suddenly turns into 'you're a cheater' if certain people feel threatened by it. With every other controller modification, people were happy to say it's still all about skill. I don't know melee inside and out by any means, but isn't the game modded? and many people's controllers modded? I thought that was common place. anything a box can do that regular controller can't would certainly be a point of contention. but for just precision/consistency/speed I find it highly questionable. but as a user, I said the same thing, please just ban it now if you're gonna ban it lol. I'm already a year in.

Can't wait until Mang0 switches to box and playing on box becomes "the Mang0"

Notches should never have been allowed, I can get behind stickbox fixes (hall effect, snapback, software fixes 1.03), trigger mods and remapping (healthier hand posture options) but you're looking at £300 for a competitive tier controller rn which is insane. We need hall effect stickboxes that are more accessible.

Goomwave is definitely cheating. On-the-fly input adjustments should not be allowed. There should be no intent-detection type system trying to guess what you were trying to do and then just doing that action despite the player not inputting it properly. Remapping the input space such that your gate is now aligned with shield drop values and such is fine, but input correction is unequivocally cheating. I believe we should ban custom notches as well. Notches make it possible to do so much in the game consistently that you otherwise are just not able to rely on, or often even execute at all. It is unattainable for most players as only a handful of people in the world can do them competently, and it is also prohibitively expensive for many players. There is also a bias in that top player can skip to the front of the queue for reputable gcc modders. We are creating a market for these services which offer an unfair advantage, especially when paired with input remapping tech, a la goomwave/phob, since they deteriorate more slowly. And finally, the supply far outstrips the demand as it is highly skilled and labor intensive, and thus we're making the game, *to a degree*, pay to win. It is unfair to play a set against someone with a decked out $300 controller, you aren't playing the same game. There is a reason there are regulations in almost every sport regarding equipment, you can't grease the baseball, you can't over tune your engine, etc. At some point we have to make a decision as to where the lines must be drawn, and I think the decade old rule of "anything goes except for macros" does not leave the game in good state. If you care about the integrity of the game then it must at least be more precisely (read, not necessarily more heavily) regulated. A perhaps hot take, that I'm not sure I'm necessarily married to, but I think should be stated.

i mean bobby had an argument, you literally cant do the pikachu up b cancel shenanigans on a controller

Get this: You can use a nunchuck on rectangles.

melee has a controller problem, not a box problem, and it bums me out the response is to bully pip. no button remap, dwindling oem inventory, hand health, buying multiple controllers in hopes they'd be shieldrop/snap back decent was terrible our pathway out of rng fresh hell was software fixes and 3rd party manufacturing software modifications are wishy washy, i get it, seems like salvation but sounds like it could jeopardize tourney legality no clue whats happening with panda conch but don't reckon its good or that the community would support anyway so we have rectangles and boutique controllers modders utopian dream is anyone could pick up an inexpensive controller and be on a level playing field but i think until that option is available banning and flaming our most viable (top level) options is dumb. I'm all for jokes/ribbing box players and controller mods, look for example when commentators shout out notchers when a spacie makes a nice recovery, but don't like seeing the shitty comments that seem to imply box players are fraudulent. idk, a lot more to say, I'm sure there'll be plenty of conversations in the future, but wanted to show some support pip. Keep doing what you're doing ps: thanks for throwing until we have in writing that box controllers are legal, looking forward to the chains coming off ;)

the slippi check for the correct box angles would be really easy to do

If you ban the Boxx you have to ban everything else The whole point of a different/modded controller is to make things more consistent. Ban the Boxx, ban the Phob and the Goomwave and ONLY oem is allowed

What is a mid-level box Player?

Idiot here, why if we have modifiers for x and y can we not just use normal arcadestick sticks?

Im a box player but i have a winning lottery ticket perfect oem controller with no mods. I i play 64 so i can pivot up and downtilt with it very consistently (and fast) and my sdi is better on controller because i can wank di. Imo theres pros and cons to each

This video just made it very clear, we need to ban rectangles.

I stan pip

Saying to quit playing the game if you can't play on a "regular controller" is ridiculous not only because it is ableist, but also because any type of modded GCC is no longer a "regular controller", and by that logic should not be allowed in competition. A more reasonable take would be that since the GCC itself is not an ergonomic design, and using it at the level that top-level Melee is played risks chronic hand injury or pain, we should not be forced to abide by its design, and as long as a controller just not stray far from what an analog controller is capable of, it should be allowed. And boxes don't stray far whatsoever.

I've heard it mentioned a lot. I think anyone who thinks the boxx is so much easier, especially the players with the time any money to rent one, should have to actually use it for 3 months. At least understand the thing you think is broken and bannable.

give gcc's a bunch of buffs d-pad should be macroable to analog->digital inputs and all buttons should be remappable to make the gc controller a stickbox lol

It’s just a skill issue, if they were really that busted everyone and their mother would be labbing with them all day. It’s a mix of ignorance and stupidity to think boxes need to be banned, if anything ban all controllers that aren’t native to the game then (ie only GameCube controllers and it’s variations for melee, only joycons and pro controllers for ult, etc)

controllers across all competitive games are always improving keyboards, mice, 3rd part pro gamepads for both fps and things like hori fightpad. Pretty much how much can you complain about a controller that just repositions buttons to be more ergonomic for your hand. If people really want to be the best they need to keep up with the latest meta. That's competitive gaming.

This is my suggestion for a universal controller definition. As you mentioned in the first half of the video, boxxs will always have an inherent advantage because of their ability to consistently input any value needed to perform certain actions. Therefore: a controller is legal and can map any digital input to any location in physical space. In no circumstances can analog inputs be emulated and must be input through an analogue device. On an electrical level there are 6 components on the gcc that are analogue. 2 pots per stick and 2 sliders for analogue trigger. So you could have literal x and y axis knobs like a fucking etch a sketch. Each button could be a micro switch, a keyboard switch or a giant banana, as long as they are all mapped to the original pinout on a gcc motherboard, physical location should not matter at all The problem is that we use micro processors to send different non traditional inputs to the game. That's the flood gates, not ergonomics or layout

If the box aswell as other digital controllers are legal than there's the equivalent of a hori-pad-controller-for-Super-Mario-64-speedrunning-level advantage you can go buy or make and than learn and play with that just raises the ability ceiling higher while adjusting the difficulty of techniques in the game, essentially offsetting the balance even further depending on which character you play. Aswell, replacing analog inputs with digital inputs as a pay-to-win advantage and saying "oh but you've gotta learn the boxx" is silly.

15:10 poor example you can buffer downthrows with c stick

1:09:34 hard disagree here, the fact that boxes serve a function in allowing accessability to playing melee is a massive reason for their existence and for not wanting to ban them. I don't think it is in any way comparable to wobbling, which is just an exploit we as a community deemed detrimental and antithtical to competitive melee. It is in no way necessary to play melee for some people like box controllers. Really interesting to get your perspective though!

People shouldn't be limited to the limits of the OEM controller. If someone can make a better controller for melee people should just switch to it instead of complaining that their controller is worse.

Fucking Christ, my reaction to CC up tilt as Marth was legitimately: "OH. GOD. UGH." Let's see, what to note here... - PracTAS has at least one great idea for nerfs (yay) - rebinding buttons on these controllers can undo nerfs (oh noey) - Hbox comes off as a guy talking shit on box-type controllers for content (not surprising) - regulation is hyper-fucked, and it's going to be for a while (fuck) - angle restrictions are not exactly nerfs (this was enlightening, tbh) All things considered, this was a great video that the community has needed for at least a handful of months. Glad to have watched it.

B0xx does have the capability to to have a Wii Nunchuck as a Stick input. I wonder if a version of the B0xx can be made that exclusively has the right side of the controller, and leaves the Nunchuck input, therefore creating a "Smash Stick"

wobbling was legal for over a decade and 99% of players were very vocal about hating it soo not sure how you can say people calling something bullshit is only why it was banned or else it wouldve been banned since its inception haha maybe there were some other reasons toooo idk lol

The boxx has advantages and disadvantages. If it only had advantages it would be cheating, but that's not the case. I think the jury is still out which controller grants a bigger advantage, but 99% of someone's performance is just their general smash ability, controller independent.

well said

I've always treated this game like a professional sport which lends me to believe the equipment being used should be the same for everyone in tournament. Just how I feel about it.

This guy is on the copium, wobbling is banned because its an easy infinite, not because people dont like it.

i am just a passing fan, but top player in other games where different hardware is used. personal i think every on should be on the same hardware. even custom controlers are sus to me. Although give every on a boxx, make it fair, or a boxx teir.

with the goomwave talk to you on the dash back ooc. its easier to do it on some goomwaves but not all of them.

It's always hilarious to me hearing people complain about boxx controllers. If people are willing to do whatever it takes to win, meaning buying $400 controllers with customs mods to do insane things with it, or camp the ledge in order to win....and the boxx is cheating because it's so good...then why doesn't everyone get a boxx controller and be the best? make it make sense. I just recently started using a boxx controller and that shit is hard. whoever complains about it, needs to use it themselves so they shut the fuck up

I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more: Top players MASSIVELY overexaggerate the smallest advantage a good controller poses. I mean we're talking notches vs. modifiers when half the time pros lose because they missed an L-Cancel or something, not because they were half a degree off from the right Firefox angle. And as far as the box debate goes, I too am rather tired of seeing people talk about the strengths of the controller without even addressing its weaknesses. Sure pivot utilt is easier and my angles are guaranteed, *but I literally can't do a medium speed walk.* I have 3 wavedash angles, being so short you'd buy it some viagra, 45 degrees, and then an average wavedash. And none of that even mentions 90% of the stuff they complain about is already banned, like perfect Firefox angles, perfect wavedash, etc. Read the SWT rulebook, it has a whole controller addendum with loads of banned coordinates, and that's what most tournaments are using.

The only thing I disagree with after all that was the comparison to wobbling. Not publishing articles about that here because it's already BAAAAAAAANNED. 😌😌😌😌

Not having to deal with hand pain to do certain tech isn't cheating, it should just be considered standard.

Yes

I think no matter what happens to the rectangles people will always disapprove of them because they are different. People will just dismiss mid tiers or rectangles as cheese, carried, cheating, or lame because they are not already established into the scene super concretely. As a spectator I hope rectangles stay, even though I cannot tell the difference between gcc and non-gcc player in game, the idea of people playing different characters, styles, and controllers will always be neat