Hah! Mass mutas vs goliaths, for one it seems that sAviOr's mutalisks were overwhelming boxer but his micro prevails again!! Proleague First game between CJ and Air Force. 2007-05-09 (Wednesday), 14:00 was the date
wc3 = having 10~20 units to micro and thats about it for this game. simple sc = nearly impossible for human to micro perfectly after mid-game so there is give-take in micro and macro. at some point of the game spending the apm in macro is more efficient than micro. effectively micro tactical play is also important. this all goes into game theory analysis but wc3 can never go this deep.
@aclock u cant say sc or wc3 has more micro because they have difrent kinds of micro. in wc3 u have more difrent units with many spells(casters)and need to micro every unit. In starcraft u have much more units and have to micro big armies and special units(defiler, reaver, dropship,...)and attack in difrent ways (fight in open area, attack main, attack expo, prepare big drop/recall, drop on worker[reaver etc]) so in wc3 all micro focus on 1battle while sc u micro at difrent places at same time.
I totally agree with you that it cost 50 gas for each goliath :). I guess it depends on the situation, I didn't really see the whole demo of this game. 225 gas for a science vessel + 200 more for irridate. 425 total can make 8 goliaths. Yeah totally depend on situation. Thanks for the insight!
Sheepiroth is right, considering he's a tournament player and my best friend. >:D Also in addition to he's just plain right. Small, bounce attack, aerial units will take little damage when spread out against goliaths, considering the explosiveness will not have enough range when the units are spread out and only do 1 more damage, moreover the bounce attacks attack more than once, rendering the 1 extra damage useless.
All of you guys are noobs. Mech is more stronger than m&m during mid-late game. The problem is during the time you are teching up the zerg is gonna do early harass which you cannot handle, that is why the safer m&m build is used on small-medium sized maps. M&m build can hold off the early rushes easily. Mech is a better choice on this map because boxer can mine the resources he wants without defending heavy attacks. If you are offended by me calling you a noob well that means your a noob. :)
goliaths do 20e damage which means they only do 10 damage to a mutalisk, which is a small unit. mutas do 9 normal damage so they do only 1 damage less than goliaths, except the mutas have splash attack which actually makes each muta attack much stronger than each goliath attack. just an FYI that is why people are telling you to learn to play.
Can anyone explain me how to micro gol vs muta? I didnt understand that o.O keep moving away and shooting because of the better range forcing mutas to move before attacking?
@rocksparadox Easy to copy and pick up on?Exactly what does that mean?Are you telling me that korea copy and stole the idea of starcraft?Im pretty sure blizzard isnt a korean company or anybody stole copyrighted content in korea .your saying the learning curve of supcom is easy and the mastering it is easy .Iilkev is right, larger unit amounts doesn't make it more balanced ,it like chess Plus darrens888 is sorta right that your assuming everybody a failure and you need stop doing that.
@MrRobocop12 With that answer you have proven that Starcraft is about work ethic and apm and is more a tactics game and Supcom is a genuine strategy game which is more suited for intellectuals. There were no pro leagues because the LEARNING CURVE was too steep. The Koreans liked starcraft because it's so easy to pick up on and easy to copy... like every western invention. Have a nice day !
@rocksparadox If it was that strategic,then where are the pro leagues.This is why starcraft have rankings and huge competition because it you have to focus on macro and micro.All strategic games is all about macro because all you do is properly timing of army initiation and mass armies. Do you see what they do in south korea to prepare for this? They pratice hours everyday for this game because you have to outmicro and outmacro other pro players.Supcom 1 is all about macro no micro.
@MrRobocop12 Let's define it simply so you will hopefully understand... Supcom 1 has a strategic scale that is not matched by any other game, a lot of different units and it requires more intelligence than skills. Insight should be the main factor in a strategy game, not how handy you are with a small group of units. Starcraft focuses on control, therefore it is a real time tactics game.
@rocksparadox starcraft was reviewed more because it was a good game because the stuff containing was supremely strategical and because of that starcraft beated all strategy games and it was supremly hard to master to pull of what they did in the video. supreme commander you just win by tatics and mass army but no micro and strategy in the game and that what going on all strategy game mass armies and tatical use.If you had to choose who gets better use of players skill is starcraft.
@AntiNubDevice Very good, you use ''Argumentum ad populum'' (Because a LOT of people give it a high score, it MUST be good'', that shows a part of the weakness of the plead. Supcom wasn't MARKETED as much and Blizzard is a slightly richer company who can afford all that. The only thing you were really right about is the fact that it is more tactical than strategic because the maps are so small and the very limited number of units !! and unittypes!! Thank you for your input !
@rocksparadox A difference in scope doesn't mean one or the other has more or less strategy. Really, SC2 is more about tactics than strategy. Positioning, timing, and proper unit composition is huge in this game. Those are tactical aspects, not strategic. Btw, Supreme Commander has a Metacritic rating of 75, to SC2's 93. If SupCom's so much better, where's the pro leagues? Whether or not you like the game, the fanbase and pro coverage speaks volumes. Maybe people prefer "arcade type bullshit" =)
Ehh pretty good micro. heres the recap.boxer spread out goliaths then he keep moving them and then he attack the muta one by one while that happen the mutas were spread making the mass muta micro a complete fail.Then continues to concetrate to one or two or 3 muta at one time.Before Savior could know what happening ,his forces were being destroyed and spreading out.Therfore as time gone on savior didnt know his forces were being severly damage as he was thinking that he was winning the battle
@rocksparadox You don't even know what you're talking about. Starcraft is one of the most strategic games ever made, and Savior was one of the best strategists to ever play the game. He didn't even have very high APM, he always won on excellent timing and decision making. Sometimes the best decision is to start massing one unit until you crack open your opponent's defenses. But if you think that's all that happens in this game, then you haven't watched enough of it to judge.
@vulkan654 its not that theyre stuck with it, its that sc2 isnt refined. Peopel are still bad at it (ask any of the pros, theyll say no one is really "good" at it yet, not even nestea/MC/etc), and more importantly the game hasnt been fully released...were just now getting hots units and we still have w.e LotV brings us. They know BW wont change, but sc2 is still going to have dramatic changes \
It's pretty obvious that Gol's aren't good against Mutalisks even if you don't know how to play starcraft. The girls only cheer when Boxer's situation is favorable. When the Muts came in they were silent. This meant that Muts are a good counter toward Gols. But due to Boxer's superior micro and Savior's retreat, the girls resumed to scream because of his obvious triumph against the odds.
You said SC2 is more micro driven due to the new unit abilities. I said i disagree because unit abilities work along side manual micro, not in addition to. The ghost as a unit would not exist if it didn't have its abilities. Its how they balanced the unit against others, and other races. IE. the unit was made "weaker" in standard combat (less hp and less DPS) to balance its powerful abilities, not given these abilities to make it stronger because it was originally weak.
To argue which is better is purely childish its like arguing over what type of music genre is better Frankly if you got offended because of the SC would not be where it is now without WC its true, mainly because WC is indeed Blizzards 1st RTS, IDC if you like SCoverWC because I play both and love both so to debate is simply a waste of time Another fact is the ability of splitting ETC are merely bugs and limits that SC never intended them and would have never thought SC being played at this lvl
Ehh whats with this Wc3 and SC debate going on? Their both well made and great in their own respective ways And this talk about SC better just because of the macro and APM is silly or how Wc3 has bigger and more intensive battles as well Their both made by the same company, both are well made No game is perfect SC and Wc3 have their flaws, and face it without Warcraft, there would be no Starcraft and the developers never intended SC to be as high pace as it is and the recognition it has now
No u.... Blizzard is making a game for everyone to enjoy, not another tornament game like SC is now. ..."please new children".... you say..... Children is what i see the most around here.... childrens talking craps about iccups, micros and macros...acting all though and mature cause they do 86000 apm. Just like the lil child back there saying WC3 is garbage. WC3 was never meant to be SC, just like SC2 is not meant to be SC (again).
and main or expansion base for 0. which means you will have to use screen shortkey and click all the production buildings which means you will have to switch your screen every min or so to your production buiding even in important battles to keep up your production. 5. Warcraft has not been developed as much as starcraft in terms of technique and meta game. I see warcraft games today and I always feel that there can be more combinations or heroes or better management
but if you're playing sc you see some red dots on your mini map and you don't see it "opps vulture or templar just raped your workers too bad" 3. More units too small numbers of short keys. When you're playing starcraft you get these shortkeys F1,F2,F3,F4 for screen shortkey 1~0 for units or buildings. when it gets to late game it is purely impossible to manage all your stuff with 14 keys since you always put your upgrade building at least for two of your shortkeys.
1. economy Warcraft is for more casual players because economy system is so simple. especially gold mine system after you put 4 workers to a mine it is over, you do not have to care about mineral to scv ratio or keep pumping workers unless you're night elf for deto purpose. Starcraft is unique because only 1 scv can work on a mineral when it is mining. Therefore to increase your economy out put you're forced to make expansion and keep producing workers.
It's true Warcraft 3 need a bit more micro skills. But to think that War 3 need more macro is such a pain. I guess all you do is creating force and have them battle opponent force so who have stronger force win. The true art of Starcraft is to slowly push the enemy into dead end. Unike W3, all-in battle directly is risky even for veteran except you have high level of micro or your force strong points are match the opponent weak points ( that make scouting and anticipating very important in SC)
after 6000 warcraft 3 games and top 50 in europe ladder. i can say it is extrem hard to controll your units in the right way. and macro isn t that easy 2 atm i have ~400 strategies i play. there are so much things you have to notice....armor/damage typs, items, upkeeps, creepjacks, surrounds mercenary, buidingharras and so on..all that things you don't have in starcraft. ..btw. you need the 2nd mine cuz gold(gas) is the importend and not wood(kristals). ((next post =rest of the answer))
lmao. wc3 is ALL useful APM whereas most of sc is spent on queuing from all those buildings. that's useful but doesn't take anywhere close to the level of skill as last-hitting your own unit to deny experience. i beat the sc ai the very first time i ever played the game. EVER. and it was soooo easy. i didn't even have the right amount of miners. i didn't even know the units. w3 pros come from all over the world. sc is just koreans.
im pretty sure an w3 kid would lose to a new sc ai, just cuz you dont macro in w3. MnM is way more micro intensive than anything in W3. Programmers could probably learn how to play w3 in 1 day and kick your ass. So if you dont need talent for SC, why dont i see your ass up there owning jaedong...and why is there no W3 league? Theres almost no strat in w3, o, someones attacking my base/i need to run, tp scroll
noobs/?????? did you say noobs??????// did you say noobs???/// are you kidding me????/// what the freaking thing are you talking about ????? boxer and savior were better than all of those like flash, fantasy, jaedong///// they are nothing to compare boxer and savior when they were in 2002~2006 do you know how many times boxer got 1st place? ok jaedong got 2 for his osl and he is 1st in ke spa, ..... heew..... idon't wanna speak at all.. i've never seen someone calling "boxer" a noob
i dont know nothing about micro,can someone tell me or teach me really i want to be like them for example when julyzerg attack he first"stack" hes mutas but how?other rare thing for me is for example when they attack they ...is like they only move one units but all the units move like the principal unit. sometimes in the battles appear one larva in the 12 units, why they use it , the larva don`t attack. o well if someone respond me i ll say thanks for thanks anyway,(please someone help me)
Do not critize any of the players, they both did the right thing. M&m would have been suicide as would have been lurks. Both players anticipated the others moves. And the entire match came down to this battle, where luck, the imbalance of the map in T's favor and Boxer's superior goli micro over Savior's Muta micro played a final role. And one last thing: shenomega grow up and if you want to post, learn about the game and be contructive.
Ok I just have to add my own view on this. If anyone wants to reply to this, please first read through all of the comments since a lot of discussions has been going on. First of all go check out Klazart's commentary of this match up. The game is played on Monty Hall, and for those of you who don't know the map, it's very tight in a lot of places and hard to move massive armies around. (read on) ..
Athos, marine / medic is a standard build vs muta and undoubtably the best counter to it. It's used by every pro gamer that plays today and thus is not a bad choice anytime (except maybe on an island map, which doesn't exist in the pro map pools today). Don't try to lecture people when you dont even know basic strategy, the game is more advanced than you can even begin to understand if you haven't got that knowledge.
It's not stupid and if you think it is, you are not even close to being an experienced starcraft player. Mutas(+ maybe a few lings) is the only counter to fast mass golls. If you start building hyds or lurks they will get totally owned by just a few tanks. Any unit requiring a hive will be to late (you'll allready be dead) and mass lings without glands upgrade (hive) will get raped in small maps like this.
I was surprised he didn't go marine medic on savior that game. Goliaths arn't the best choice to kill mutalisks. Because mutalisks are classified under small units, Goliaths only do 50% damage to muts. So really that was kind of even. Goliaths have that range though and thats why they are the better choice.
@rocksparadox lol supreme commander....it seems like another one of those C&C spinoffs. Such games are usually just a gigantic mass base and units spam fest. Having super units or able to spam 50 different units doesn't make a game balanced. SC is simple, but it's like chess or Go, easy to learn, difficult to master.
@UpTballA What the fuck is with that logic? Savior complied to rigging a few matches, but that does not mean that he rigged every fucking match, and, ahem, he began rigging matches because he was not able to compete with the best. Just look at his record - it gets progressively worse as time moves on - so not, he cant really compete with the best.
Gaming community finds every minute detail to complain about. Lets hate SC2 because you can now select over 12 units? Come on, youre not a pro so its barely gonna make a difference for you" dont get me wrong i hate SC2 but your reasons are ridiculous and vulture micro in sc2 requires no skill at all either, just move and patrol sideways.
mm..War3 is for kids who cant get good at SC. They have something to brag about especially with all the extra functions that War3 provides (tabbing to scroll though units in a control group, alt to see health bars etc) Although i do agree War3 is more micro intensive, its only made that way so noobs who have shitty macro (in sc) can still win.
What about them? They'll just be even better at it. In the end, MBS is not going to make as big of a difference as you're saying (MBS = "removing the element of macro"? What are you smoking?); I repeat, overexaggerated. Yes it does reduce the amount of skill required to macro, I'm not denying that, but really, everyone's acting like MBS is the end of competitive SC.
To be honest, I really think the whole MBS deal is being overexaggerated. Sure it takes a liiittle bit out of the skill required to macro effectively, but really I'd rather my Starcraft games to be about the unit selection, micro, and strategies rather than my ability to click many Gateways and press Z. Just my $0.02.
if u can place 1st in the starcraft proleagues for about 1 year and a half or longer and beat boxer reputation... than you can be considered the best terran player... but your not... and boxer is... fact so before u talk like your better than ne1 ecspecially boxer... just remember theres alwayys people to tell u wrong
The thing is both players were gambling, mass muta/lings is effective vs mech, since you can mass more in shorter time. On the other side, mech is interestingly good on a map like this, since you can't be rushed easily and goli's with range are better than rines that can't get a clear shot on their foes. (read on)..
@Rawnesss fine scratch that this game isnt fixed, lets say he can never compete with players of today. look at 0:10 , explain to me why half his mutas are idle and not moving, and dont say boxers funny micro video vs noobs captured ur heart. be happy ur beloved boxer continues his legacy in sc2
True, SC2 will be more like WC3, but once again it's not going to be SOLELY BECAUSE OF MBS's influence. There are a ton of factors involved and most people are just crying about only MBS, that was my point all along. I agree with everything you said, except that it's all "because of mbs".
Actually if both players just clicked "attack" mutas would win...but boxer moved his army so they take less dmg from mutas splash and Savior just clicked attack as you see so mutas didnt attack when goliaths moved...they were just following them...you can try it and you will see...
We are not talking about JulyZerg and I can give you all you want that Savior's spellcontrol of Swarm is godly as is his scourge micro in pinning vessels and his lurk/ling combo as well as early pressure is incredible. He's really pro, but his Muta control is not one of the best. (read on)..
@lilkev098 Supreme Commander is the spritual sequel to the award winning "Total Annihilation" from 1996. Maybe you should do a little research on the subject. C&C was groundbreaking, but that doesn't mean that every RTS game is based on it.
I still think some Focus-Fire Muta action would've won. I know he had at least two full groups hot-key'd. Jus' make group one hit a gol, and group two hit another, and repeat. Oh well, still enjoy the small, yet very impacting and effective macro.
I know its late but Goliaths are actually not that good against Mutas. Their damage is weakened since mutas have light armor, and not heavy type which the goliaths are good with. Best to have marine medic force with stim and range upgrade to counter mutas
WC sucks. Know why? That stupid game is too dependent on heroes. Insanely dependent. They are more valuable than actual strategy and its the heroes that make or break a match. You wouldnt consider such a game strategy-based, would you?
Actually STALKERX9 Blizzard are making SC2 with the intentions of making it a huge e-sport game. I believe they've even hired professional gamers to help make sure it turns out that way. However, I am looking forward to all of the changes in SC2.
@seabard77 why hotkey upgrade buildings??? O_o as soon u get the massage that the ups are finished u use space or click minimap and start next one. that takes 1-2 seconds more then with hotkey but u can use the hotkeys for other units.
thats because it is, starcraft is a macro based game not a micro based, stop trying to turn it into warcraft 3, I mean comon, Pro wc3 doesn't even compare to pro starcraft, and that's what it going to be like is pro wc3 because of mbs, maybe even worse : /
i just saw a video when he gets owned by zerg. Boxer owns, but he's not the BEST. (Especially since terran is supposed to be effective as shit against zerg but the zerg guy i forgot his name like owned him with only zerglings. was beautiful.)
Hmm the zerg had sunkens left, why not fight closer to them? and about Halo3 vs Starcraft. Halo3 is for kids with no skills at all. Just run alround shooting. In starcraft you need skills and learn how to move the units alround
omg....if u think u ppl can pwn these guys ur totally WRONG sum of these ppl can make as much money in 1 year as u'll prolly make ur whole entire life...just by doin this ima nub myself at sc...but at least i dont go off saying i can pwn tht guy
Why are you guys even arguing over this? There was obviously a reason boxer went golis, so yes in THIS specific situation it was correct to get golis. Feel free to argue with boxer about what he should've gotten in this situation.
lol im not gonna bother arguing seeing how people type paragraphs as responses, im amazed yet sadly disappointed that a science vessel isn't there. With irridate, the fight would've ended within a few seconds. just had to point that out.
savior is very good player and i still think he can compete today with S class players, boxer dominated before 2005 and savior dominated the scene in 2006. savior is a match fixer so this game is most probably rigged
i could say now that wacraft 3 needs more skill(more micro and more macro) than starcarft, but i don t know because i played only 200 starcraft games and as a noob i have no idea how complex starcraft can be.
its because mutas can only fire when they are still, the goliaths can walk and fire, so if you micro them away from the mutas, then they mutas will have to fly closer to hurt the gols, while the gols and walk and deliver pain
actually nachooooz is right. practice 8 hours a day, as most programmers do, and this micro isn't hard. However boxer was famous not just cause of his micros but of his innovation, which no one can top.
look it's no mystery, you just saw what happened to the mutas. and i think even if there was no micro with the goliaths the same thing would've happened, except maybe a couple more goliaths would've died.
"Goliaths arn't the best choice to kill mutalisks.... So really that was kind of even. Goliaths have that range though and thats why they are the better choice." what the hell are you saying?
apm is due to clicking on all those buildings to mass your stupid units wc involves specific actions (micro) that require actual talent sc pros would lose to a wc normal computer
i would say it's micro. he moved goliaths after each shot to outrange mutas in the back. i guess that's why it's called micro, because you need to actually look to see it.
i agree...seriously...not that hard, just walk and p to the side, you just have to know how long gol takes between shots so u can use their fire rate the most effectively
I agree that sc is much better then halo, I mean most people think cod4 is better then halo, how can you compare it with sc then? It's not even the best out of it's category.
how can u micro mutas wen gols have boosters u cant muta stack them the gols have almost 3grids more range then mutas, that woulda made savior lose for sure
yea, 1v7 is really fair...epsecially since against ANYONE, all you have to do is rush that 1 person with just 1 miner each and the game's pretty much over...
WC is more about micro while Starcraft is a balance between micro and macro. WC is about perfectly controlling your army of 4 people, while SC is more about managing your economy, and 10 other things at once.
