Like every new battery announcement, Ill believe it when I see it in production at scale. Have they really solved the issue of Si expansion? Tesla thought they had it solved and they apparently didnt. And is it cost competitive? If it costs twice as much existing cells, it likely wont make much impact except in aeronautics where weight is more important than cost. How is cycle life? Im very skeptical of new battery announcements at this point. I wish them well though!
I used to follow battery technology like a hawk and would get so excited. Then I realized that it’s relatively easy to produce a better battery in a lab, and that the hardest part of new battery tech is to scale it up and provide high cycles in real world conditions. I hope this one succeeds but it sounds very similar to many other breakthroughs that came before it. I guess it’s better than a professor in a lab announcing it at least (which generally means that it’s likely never going to become commercialized and is probably being announced to secure additional research funding).
This is absolutely insane. Was not expecting anyone to pull this off yet. Incredible!! Next step, large volume manufacturing and calendar aging rate. Looking forward to future updates.
This is great news for us, second life battery people: maybe good cells will flood the market and we can build our home energy storage devices even cheaper!
@@LithiumBatteryGuy If it works, there's going to be plenty of capital to build out more capacity. They will initially target the highest-margin applications - aviation and other niche stuff - but that's likely just the beginning if the tech is as good as they claim it is.
Just imagining that requirement being added by an upset general who's office built of surplus battery packs burnt down after he hung a picture of his favourite M4 Carbine on the wall with a nail.
The beauty of this is even if the batteries cost 2X as much, you only have to put half of a normal battery pack in an EV to get the same range, so the cost would therefore be identical on a per car basis. But the weight savings would also be enormous and beneficial to efficiency. Hoping they can scale big time.
But if it costs 2x as much per kWh, your math falls apart. The battery will weigh less, but will cost much much more. This would still be a great application for ultra range vehicles and aircraft, despite the cost
@@gemini86 the optimist in me would hope for 2x cost per cell, as 2x per kwh would mean each cell would be 4x more expensive than traditional cells. Hopefully they can make it price competitive at mass scale.
@@gemini86 With a smaller battery you can offset some of that cost, as the pack will be cheaper, and you can use less aluminum/composites in the car generally to hit reasonable curb weights.
Adding resin to hold together silicon likely increases internal resistance, which means less power density, not good for cars. Also likely significant cost penalty due to complex mfg process.
@@MunroLivewon't you show the fans the rest of what the CaliforniaNazis is hiding? Get your little buddy at McDonnell Douglas to show us 🇺🇸 some breakthrough classified propulsion technologies 😅? Wtfe Who's got the iron man plasma reactor tech? I know one of your elitist dark lord bosses has it.
First thing I always ask with batteries is cycle testing. You can get a ton of power from a lithium cell, once. Getting it for a million miles is the hard part.
@@AdlerMow - then primary cells, or other chemical energy sources have all the advantage, totally different use case, ie. not the rechargeable world - noting that the single use devices you mention are more in the arena of guided munitions, not true RPA/UA's.
Getting a CAR to last a million miles is MUCH harder. By the time you drive that many miles you've replace the vehicle at least once with all the parts replacements, probably at least one or two wrecks with today's driving and no not even driverless tech can get you out of every bad situation that other drivers create, so you've even replace body panels. I could care less about a one million mile battery pack because I'll NEVER get more than about 150,000 on a vehicle, except once in my life where I inherited a family vehicle from my brother who got it from my Dad and it made it up to about 200,000. So, if you have a battery pack that gets you 250,000 miles you've met the needs of probably 95% of the population and for the people who expect 1 million miles from a battery pack, WTH you driving now that will last 1 million miles? NOTHING.
It took a day for the memory flower to bloom....this is wonderful news, more power to Amprius and all who sail with her! Thanks for the heads up. Congratulations to Antonio and team...To the Moon! ♥
Great to see these breakthroughs. Even though many do not make to market, it's important that we can see what's possible and maybe we can achieve them in the future. Sandy mentioned the aviation use case, which is perfect for the VTOL taxies in development as well as drone delivery.
I have built silicon pouch cells that are about 500 Wh/kg. The trick is can they last and can you scale them up. I’ll believe it when I see somebody measure parasitic heats or give me a coulombic innefficiency / hour value.
No the $64,000 question is how much more will u end up paying when the ev tax gets implemented...meanwhile I'm still rolling in my 80s and 90s jap cars STILL more reliable than anything in the last 10-15 years ..and since I'm not paying $64000 for a ev how much driving can I do for that ..I estimate 7-9 years of non stop driving for $64000
@@UshankaShow A lot of technology which has civilian benefit was jump started by though military investment to achieve economy of scale. You won’t find me arguing against that. My question was how long is it going to take? In the case of GPS, it was almost 25 years from the beginnings of development until the civil sector had a fully useable product (When Clinton’s executive order decommissioned selective availability in 1999). I’m not sure exactly when the design decision was made, but it was pretty early in the development of GPS that it was decided to have both as coarse civil sector bit stream and a precision enciphered military bit stream. As a side note, the first civilian GPS receiver I owned was in the late 1980s, was expensive, took about 30 minutes to acquire satellite lock, and could be off by up to 1/4 mile randomly due to selective availability. The selective availability really messed up urban street use and even made GPS somewhat risky to rely upon for staying in a channel for maritime navigation. We’ve really come a long way for satellite assisted navigation in the last 35 years.
Surprised currently only 367K subscribers. Deserves to be 3.67M subscribers. Definitely Subscribed and also Liked. Viewed a lot of previous teardown videos which were highly informative. Learnt a lot about how products can and should be cost effectively made while at the same time improving efficiency/quality.
wonderful, i sincerely hope this comes to market. only problem is those of us who aren't "baby young to the world" (and thus coming into contact with these kinds of announcements for the first time) are forced to recall how we've already heard a constant stream of "battery breakthrough" stories basically at a rate of 2 per year for the PAST 20 YEARS. yeah despite being old, some of us DON'T FORGET so quickly and are able to REMEMBER a lot of these previous announcements - and to be honest - I'm not so sure if my great memory is a blessing or a curse in this regard. I mean I can remember back 30 years ago to when SUPER CONDUCTIVITY was all over the news.
I remember when I was a kid everyone in school kept saying how we're going to run out of oil in 50 years and there will be a Global international catastrophe... Now it 40 years later turns out we may never run out of oil because there will be alternatives that will be cheaper and easier and more environmentally friendly in the next 10-30 years - for everything except for aircraft... Like you, until it comes into production I'm going to basically ignore it...
Only thing is sandy n team has some credibility here to know what he is talking about, not pnly in terms of the underlying science, but also the practicality of legit production at scale
@@MunroLive better be more to come, like I've been saying THOUSANDS of pages of declassified r and d reports going back to the 1950s from your California nazi buddies in aerospace and automotive proving you and Elon musk is blowing smoke up the publics azz, everything from high density next level battery technology, to high density hydrogen technologies to new exotic propulsion technologies. If you and your team don't know about these things it's because you are a compartmentalized tool and have no business being a youtube influencer. Tired of you guys gaslighting the public.
@@MunroLiveI highly doubt sandy Munro knows much outside the number of bolts 🔩 on a 1984 Ford F150 because the truth is 99% of the "engineers" of these scum bag black budget corporations and companies are all compartmentalized and don't know much of anything outside of their own programmed positions but he obviously is in on the narrative of what the elite bring out to market and say. I'm sure their are a number of advanced battery and hydrogen technologies he knows about but isn't allowed to mention. It's a Shame, I thought the old man was human lol 😆 😂 😅 boy was I fooled It's funny to listen to Munro bring on old timer guests who are usually senior engineers inside these corporate public scam companies complain about how the "elite" would not allow any changes to the way things are built and done. Innovation was frowned upon. NO 👎 NO! you can't do that is what I've heard over and over and over from these guys. Why do you think that is? 😅behind the scenes they are funelling trillions into secret r and d of exotic propulsion and energy generation technologies. Who wants to give up that power, money and secret? Lol 😄 😆 you let the public monkey 🐒 engineers innovate 💡 too much they might figure all this out and we can't have that so we must make sure for the next 100 years we make one man pop rivet by hand 1000000000 different pieces of beer cans together we call 📞 a aircraft so they are too busy and programmed to think of anything else. 😉 It's a sad reality that even the people I'm supposed to look up to for mentorship, inspiration and integrity, I'm always finding out they aren't the people I thought they were. Very curious I wrote this on my own channel nearly 24 hrs before you dropped this video and wouldn't you know it... Ole sandy and the CaliforniaNazis decide to go balls to the wall 🙄 BREAKING NEWS AND BALLS 😅 with a new higher density battery chemistry ⚗ CaliforniaCluxClan can do better than 200% 😅but I'll take it, but I expect more "classified" energy storage and generation technologies to be rolled out, This secrecy of these technologies is RIDICULOUS Thanks Munro for further concreting my suspicions of you. Can't trust anybody can you?
I know it's not big bucks but this battery type with a hairpin motor would be big improvement for E-Bikes. For example same weight and double the range. Or just less weight.
Lots of unanswered questions: temperature sensitivity, cycle life, vibration resistance, end-of-life cost, charge/discharge rate, safety, manufacturing scalability, cost, for example. I wish them well in their roll-out.
I presume this wasn't a paid sponsor, but I'll tell you, it has the feeling of it. Little information, so sparse it hardly filled a minute run time, but high praise without any real information on the company, how many they've made, what they're in, etc. I do prefer you spending some time with this tech to tell us about it. If I wanted short clips and bits of information I can get that literally anywhere, your value is indepth knowledge, not the latest press release from a company no one's heard of, making huge promises like so many before. Just my 2 cents, I do appreciate you.
It would be interesting to know how many things mentioned, such as this beta product, VinFast, Zeta, etc. made payments to get space on Munro Live. I know Munro Live isn’t a charity and I’m fine with sponsorships to get products mentioned provided we know that. There’s difference between “I found out about this cool product and I want you to know,” and “The maker of this product says it is cool and paid me to tell you that.”
Always sounding like a sales pitch,and everything is brilliant,and impressive...shill is another term. And maybe one day munro dudes are in trouble with sec or other entities for insider trading? Or stock manipulation.
Mass production is where this will most likely snag as most of these "breakthroughs" do. But eventually, one of these new techs will break through and will have a significant impact.
@@guidedbygreen1480 I'm betting it's Amprius but time will tell I guess; but probably not a lot of time - probably like a year or 18 months. The context clues and fact they're trying to build a plant asap, etc. I think they have a "real" producable, fly-able/ drivable battery. Also, the energy density is incredible, but seems realistic for the market for the near term, not like some company that was started last week and claims some incredible breakthrough
their website claims only the silicone anode is different. The rest of the battery is same old tech. So there is no insurmountable barrier into mass manufacturing
It will be at the drone level where we see the improvements first. In drones the battery weight is super important. Much more than in cars At 500 Wh/kg we also get several airplane options that become more viable on short haul routes up to 500km (300 mi) Like flying regular routes to islands including mail runs.
It certainly looks like Amprius has hit this out of the park. Kudos to them for keeping it quiet until they are going into actual production. Very nice reporting! All good wishes. P.S. I'm a very happy new subscriber!
IF stable for the breadth of temperatures and many many cycles, this would be great to get into Semis, Pickup Trucks, Heavy Construction vehicles, Massive boats, Snow Plows, Heavy Tanks, etc. So many applications. If they are just now building a facility in Colorado, then I am guessing this product is like 5 years away from mass production.
@@artysanmobile There are already electric Semis in the marketplace and they are doing fine although some have very low range right now, but its early days and range, weight, and charging will improve as the technology matures/evolves.
@@strykerace re: "There are already electric Semis in the marketplace" indeed, but hold onto that thought cause in 1 years time I want you to count how many there are in operation...? and then in 3 years time I want to do another count how many there are in operation...? and then in 5 years time I want you to COUNT AGAIN how many there are in operation...? turns out, the passage of time has a way a forcing people to "bump up against the hard wall of reality". because: SOBRIETY.
Crazy that they managed to hit 100% silicon immediately instead of starting with a larger percentage of graphite anode. Hoping for good things from this in aerospace. And looking forward to the Lucid teardowns!
I would be very interested in the: - Price - Cycle life - and maybe power/charging speed (C - less important) Pretty sure it's quite expensive for a battery pack and the silicon swelling would degrade the cells pretty fast. If they really have high cycle life with those "nano-tubes"... I bet it's gonna be very expensive for a long time.. Either way, always awesome for drones and all progress is great!!
pretty exciting stuff, I wouldnt be suprised if we start seeing 550+ mile EVs with large packs and much, much, cheaper and lighter 250+ mile EV's in the next couple years
That's what I expect within 3-5 year's from today. Top spec evs all over 500-600+ miles of rated range inc truck's and suvs. Smaller segments are focused on affordability to go with small pack's and 220-270 miles of range but just 8-10mins charging. The catl quilin pack claims up to 1000kms of range(cltc though so likely 800kms wltp and less for epa. Anyways what's astounding is a 70% charge of the 144.3kwh pack in 10mins. That's gonna take a 600kw charger and a sustained up to 6c charge rate. 😀👍🏻
@@4literv6 1000 Kms is 600 miles. Forget WLTP. EVs won't be 100% efficient so forget that range. 600KW charger isn't planned for with any EV charging infrastructure.
@@ScubaSteveCanada actually 480kw chargers exist in china since gac demonstrated them in summer 2021. 350+kw chargers have been widely available since 2021. 600kw Huawei chargers are going in right now in China further teslas v4 just started deploying in the EU at 1000v and over 600kw max. And the tesla semi takes 750kw right now from the Pepsi megachargers. Nice try though you poor misinformed little troll. 👍🏻😎
@@thomasreese2816 sir, this is factually incorrect even for excavators, batteries are simply too big and take too long to recharge, hence hydrogen cells or hydrogen combustion is under development. JCB in the UK in in the advanced stages of testing Hydrogen ICE for their heavy machinery batteries have their limits, for electronics - sure, for small cars - it's already a stretch, imagine something bigger perhaps the overly optimist source you are quoting from refers to niche smaller planes (by calling them large they mean not 2 seater planes)
My last 2 gasoline vehicles had "ranges" of about 400-450 miles. The 2 before before that only got about 350 (I think gas tank sizes must have increased in the last 20 years because fuel economy was about the same on all of them). And unlike most of the armchair afficianados Ive actually timed myself taking rest stops on road trips. My average stop time for gas, snacks, and bathroom was about 30ish minutes... not the 5 minutes everyone SEEMS to think it takes. And at the minimum I have to stop for bathroom and snacks every 200 miles or so, and on longer road trips I get out and eat a sit down meal at least once. Theres a guy on RU-vid Bjorn Nyland who does 1000km road trips as fast as he can on just about every EV he can get a hold of, and for most of them he doesnt even eat a sit-down meal, usually he just chokes down a hotdog and hes off again. And it seems HIGHLY UNLIKELY that anyone will ever ship an EV with a 800 mile range. From a general engineering perspective its better to reduce the overall vehicle weight. Lighter batteries means the vehicle needs less structure to HOLD the batteries, less structure to meet safety requirements, less beefy suspension, less beefy brakes, smaller and cheaper tires etc. So the overall weight of vehicles would be reduced far more than just the savings on the battery pack weight.
After taking several 2000 vacations in an EV, range is very important. Charge stations don't exist everywhere yet. Tried to go to Big Bend NP in Texas and actually couldn't because of range in our Y. Don't forget these cars are sold in other countries that don't have the infrastructure.
Thanks Sandy and Antonio for explaining some of the engineering details of Ampris' creation of a 500Wh/kg battery. Seem there will have to be a lot of testing and costing to see if it is commercially viable.
Well, battery research is evolving quickly. Which is great. But what actually makes it into applications lags by 10 years or so... as it should.. we need to make sure batteries are safe and stable before putting them everywhere.
Problem is ramping to volume production. That's always the hard part and where most "breakthroughs" falter. This looks promising but I wouldn't get too excited yet.
Thank you so much for letting us know of this awesome news!! It would be awesome to have 500+ mile range as an average for all EV's, not just one or two manufacturers.
No. That kind of range is just not needed in 90% of cases. Focus on small, compact, and light vehicles instead. 20KWh is PLENTY for typical daily usage. At that rate with this kind of density, EVs can actually be competitive with ICE vehicles on weight.
Weight affects range so if the batteries have 2x energy density you would need a lot less than 50 % the mass of batteries to maintain an equivalent range.
Reducing the battery cell weight by 50% will only decrease the vehicle weight by maybe 10-20% and increase the range by 5-10%, since the rolling resistance is usually only about 1/3-1/2 of the energy loss.
@@pawpawbandit3871 we can calculate that. A Model 3 pack weighs 450 kg. If batteries are 90% of the mass of the pack, that's 400 kg of batteries. If you cut that in half, that's 200 kg. Coefficient of rolling resistance for a good car tyre like the ones on electric cars is about 0.0062 200 kg x 9.8 is 1960N. 1960 x the CoRR 0.0062 = 12.152 N 12.52 x 1000 gives the energy used in 1 km 12152 J Divide by 3600 to get Wh. That's 3.755 Wh per km. For comparison a Model 3 is rated at 165 Wh/km, so about 2.2% decrease in consumption. The average driving distance in the USA is 13500 miles. Google tells me that's 21726 km. Multiply consumption by distance... So that's 73,337 Wh, or 73 kWh. About 7 dollars worth of electricity at off peak rates, about 30 dollars at a supercharger. So if you charge at superchargers, and the car lasts 25 years, you could save 750 dollars. 500 million cars (a bit over a third of all cars on earth) would use 36 TWh per year. That's equal to about 90 minutes of world energy consumption. Over 25 years that's 916 TWh. That's equal to just over a day and a half of world energy consumption over 25 years. Or a bit under 0.002% of world energy consumption. Not nothing. Not world changing. About like fitting wheel covers.
Prototypes are easy, this only counts if they able to make 100s of GWh a year and I think they're be suited well for electric planes only with few GWh a year factory.
If it provides a feasibility function the entire aerospace sector needs and they licence the formula/design out to a separate veteran manufacturer (like say LG chem or Panasonic corp.) they could own a large portion of the battery market for not only aerospace but also wheeled EVs without needing the heavy investment on their end for production to meet demand.
@@georgesackinger2002 I mean I hope they use coated nanowire silicon cathodes with Lithium Iron Phosphate (or Lithium Manganese Iron Phosphate) chemistry. This should increase their battery cycle life from around 1000 cycles (currently) to over 3000 cycles.
The big questions will be - how many times can it be cycled, and how fast can it be charged without damaging it. They would need to have figured out the problem of the silicon swelling when lithium atoms enter it.
Charging speeds should NOT be ramped up, the speeds these retarded chinese phone companies are doing is extremely unsafe and it blows my mind that samsung etc are following the trend
Looking forward to the interview and their tech. Looking good for EVs, how much range would one get with potential half the number of cells ? The questions around efficiency will be interesting.
The simple answer is more range than you had. Every vehicle has a figure of merit. Long ago I had a GM EV 1 for every sixty pounds of weight added or subtracted I gained or lost 1 mile of range. The basic physics hasn’t changed It take energy to accelerate mass Force = Mass X Acceleration. Once the mass is at speed on a flat straight road with no wind The energy required is just the energy to overcome friction. EVs today consume between 200-400 watt hours of power. Cars on the lighter/smaller size require fewer watt hours per mile. Using really rough arithmetic The mass of the car might go down by 20%. Force required to accelerate will be 20% lower. Friction loses will go down, but not by the 20% that the force required for a given acceleration does. Rolling resistance and other loses dominate below 60 miles per hour air resistance dominates above 60 miles an hour. If the The vehicle size and shape is unchanged then the air resistance will be unchanged. So range will improve by something less than 20%
In the picture seems that the solid layer in the middle is the copper( or Al) foil. The copper in modern batteries are about 6um in thickness. The forest of blobs on eiter side are the coating. The coating seems to be on the 10 to 15 um in thickness ( if the copper is 6um). I would guess that is CVD product. And that this is the raw silicon before the binder. The silicon should be in amorphous form. I wonder how resilent that kind of structure is. Seems brittle because of the silicon. CVD, PLD or sputtering might be the future tech to manufacture batteries. They are slow manifacturing technologies compared to slurry, but with 2x improvement you can get the same capacity from half of the material.
I think silicon deposition has matured in the last couple years thanks to mass production of silicon photovoltaic cells for the solar industry. Amprius is piggy-backing on those developments by partnering with German company Centrotherm AG for their deposition machines. They have one small Centrotherm that they are working up in their Fremont location and will be buying multiple big ones for their Colorado gigafactory.
Be sure to talk to them about cost per KWH, rare earth element usage, exterior temperature performance, timeline for production, charge and discharge rates as it compares to current gen 2170 and 4680 among others like the Chinese batteries from BYD, CATL, etc
I've heard this same "magic battery" story at least 6 times a year for the past 5 years and none of them appeared. A lot of the time, it's companies trying to get funding through deception or it's impossible to produce at any scale.
re: "I've heard this same "magic battery" story at least 6 times a year for the past 5 years and none of them appeared." exactly, nobody's paying attention. re: "A lot of the time, it's companies trying to get funding through deception..." "oooh, that's a bingo...!!!" (best Christoph Waltz/Hans Landa voice) ref: Beth Holmes/Theranos, Trevor Milton/Nikola, and Sam Fried/FTX Crypto.
A big milestone if it can be produced at scale! I believe Elon himself forecast 500wh/kg as the point where electric aviation would become feasible. Looking forward to more news.
@@marwanshamsia 400wh/kg from 2020 was his quote where ev aviation becomes viable. Back then he said he expected such cells to exist in 3-4 year's. In other words Elon once again was dead on the bullseye. 😎
ElonMusk ? A battery for aviation with only 500 Wh per kg may be usable? That is strange because gasoline has 12700 Wh/kg, that's 25 times more, it might be a century before that is matched by a battery ,if ever,and knowing that present kerosene turbofans are better than 80& efficient.
I can see why Munro likes batteries made from silicon. After all, his first name is 'Sandy'. 🤣 As a gift to the world, this could be called the Sandy Claus battery. 😊💚
What I find surprising is that the 4680 battery ended up being a lower energy density than 2170s. I thought the whole point of the 4680 was higher energy density+structural pack
The actual point of the 4680 = economics. It's really cheap per KWH & mass produced. And the structural pack advantages are clearly not taken into account in these numbers.
The 4680 is also still in development, it is the first battery Tesla has ever made themselves... They have pulled silicon out of the cell to improve manufacturability and are slowly working on adding it back in
Not really. The cost and weight savings (from removing the separate floor structure of the vehicle) still make it a more attractive cell from a manufacturing standpoint, which is a very important metric when trying to scale to exponents of your current capacity. The 4680 is also still in its infancy, so I have hope that we see it becoming more and more energy dense over time as manufacturing techniques improve.
They don't talk much about their cycle life, which means it's probably not great at this point in time. Always focus on what a battery company doesn't say about their product.
re: "Always focus on what a battery company doesn't say about their product." ikr...? per the wisemen "the devil is in the details", and conspicuously the "details" are the FIRST THINGS to get left out of the discussion, yeah you can "set your watch by it". I guess the hope is that we will not only be ignorant about how Battery Science works...? but ALSO ignorant about how Language and Communication works (which sadly most are).
I'm pretty sure Elon mentioned that 500Wh/Kg was the threshold for smaller but proper longer duration passenger aircraft. Great news and the pace of power increase is amazing if true.
True. Musk did say that. The Jetson 1, say, could stay aloft for half an hour or more with this battery. At a hundred MPH, that flying "car" could make fifty miles before it needs to land and charge.
@@davis.fourohfour 50 miles rooftop to rooftop in a straight line is actually amazing in crowded cities and probably much less noisy than a helicopter because of the speed. this thing could be a perfect air ambulance.
Anyway. Double the battery by changing the anode material to silicon cleverly shaped... That changes the dynamics around raw mineral production constraints entirely. That's if the same amount of Nickel, Cobalt, Lithium, etc is used in the batteries. Remarkable really.
That is exciting news! I think of it in terms of what that would mean in my F150 Lightning. It could give my truck a 25% lighter weight battery pack and increase my range from 320 miles to 470 miles or so, at the same time. I mean, if you split the difference from twice the range at the same weight or the same range at half the weight.
Keep in mind that if you can cut the weight of the battery in half and get the same amount of energy in and out of it, you will still increase your range because the whole truck is lighter and less power is wasted just dragging the battery around.
FUD F150 Lightweight is INEFFICIENT and built on a OUTDATED Horse & Buggy Platform. its too DAMN Heavy. Lightweight needs a top to bottom LEAN Design review , before NEW batteries. it needs to get rid of the BODY on Frame.
