CAC Pushback - Concerns, Criticism, & Sellouts 

I bought several mint-state gold coins of the quarter-eagle through eagle varieties. I bought them as an investment with resale in mind, so I picked only graded, CAC-stickered coins. That wasn't because I can't evaluate the grade myself, but with "The Next Buyer" in mind, as a way to swat down any low-ball offers. There is an established grade, and a "2nd opinion" saying these coins (all MS65-MS67) are solid for the grade. In other words, securing the highest resale potential from what is observable in today's market.

I remember Daniel Malone of Portsmouth Coins & Currency Co. in one of his videos from quite some time ago….he said “The absolutely last thing we need is ANOTHER grading company….we just need to improve the grading system itself”. As a coin collector for over 30 years, I'm astonished at how rapidly the coin collecting has changed since then. It's really sad….there’s a saying “beauty is in the eye of beholder”, so I don’t need anyone to tell me their opinion that my coins is either “worthy or not worthy” on the grade. It is extremely shameful that some people are allowing the corporations to dictate what the collectors’ own coins are. Personally, the way I see it myself, CAC is just another grading company driving a wedge that is causing a division in numismatic community and dismantling the joy of the hobby.

Great discussion, Ben. One point I haven't seen mentioned: When buying or selling online, photos are often sub-par, putting both buyer and seller at a disadvantage. However, if a coin has a green CAC sticker, prospective buyer confidence goes way up; the sticker becomes a proxy indicator for for filtering out the "meh" coins offered at nearly every grade. I find the CAC service as a strong asset for the graded coin community and especially meaningful in a world of remote purchases.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The shadow knows!....Keep up the good work Ben

I would pay for an Owl sticker. Even if its just to validate the grade and get your opinion in writing on a coin. Like CAC+ or Geek+ That and the Owl sticker would just be cool.

I like the idea of having a second opinion on coin grades. Maybe NGC and PCGS and put stickers on CAC graded coins now?

I think one of the more interesting aspects of John Albanese is that while he's an excellent business man, he sometimes acts in a way that are not necessarily purely business driven. It's not that concerns over keeping CAC stickering while also rolling out CACG aren't warranted. They certainly are. It takes listening to John talk and say things like "Don't crack your gold bean holder to get it in a CACG holder." that let you know John is actually more interested in the hobby than just the business of it.

I personally like CAC and find them to be a very much value added product. That said, one thing that I wish they would do is to make it public what coins they previously have reviewed that they didn’t sticker. I’m not sure about their new pricing structure going forward - prices have increased fairly dramatically but are they for every coin submitted or is it just for the coins that they sticker? If they are charging the fees on every coin, then they really need to disclose what coins they’ve previously reviewed so the coin’s owner is just throwing their money away.

Collectors set the market it is a business no different than art, diamonds and other collectables . Nice video

I try to buy for the coin, and not the holder (or sticker), but freely admit I am also influenced by the holder (and sticker). I’ve seen many examples of holdered coins I would consider over graded, despite Ben’s comment that that doesn’t happen all that often. And I’d rather have John Albanese’s professional opinion that the coin is solid or superior for the grade, and as a result, will pay more for it, than hope it’s not over graded. My own grading instincts aren’t perfect, but my CAC submission success rate is 80% so far, and the CAC sticker gives me confidence that the coin is better than average for the grade. Other collectors must agree, otherwise you wouldn’t see CAC stickered coins selling for premiums, and CAC wouldn’t have had to suspend submissions last year for months.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned from the CU forums, it’s that CAC inevitably evokes very strong opinions from both the lovers and the haters. And just like politics these days, no one has ever convinced anyone on the other side of their view, but everyone seems convinced that if they keep trying their argument will surely prevail 😂

I've said this before. PCGS and NGC should come out with a stickering service. Send PCGS a coin graded by NGC and if they agree with the grade, slap a sticker on it. Same for coins graded by CACG. Now it shows that two grading services concur on the grade.

ben you explained the CAC theory well but unfortunately some people let it go in one ear and out the next. listen people all 65's are not equal. you can sit there and try to convince yourself they are, but you are only fooling yourself. the market has established that CAC coins are worth more and carry a premium. this is where the market is and where it will probably stay for the foreseeable future. if you are in collecting to potentially sell coins at a later date and make a profit, the CAC coins will be in more demand than those without a green or gold sticker. some people should look at the market and revise their thinking rather than constantly whine about CAC.

I enjoy hearing your responses to the tougher questions. Good stuff!

I wish there was a way of knowing if a coin I purchase has failed so I don't bother submitting it a second time. How about a brown bean for CAC submissions that didn't pass? 😆

I remember back when the certified coins started having their own sheet. My friend had hundreds of coins that he would sell at "sheet", but beautifully toned or ones with high eye appeal he had at premiums in his case. I remember one guy getting all up in arms about how he said he would sell at sheet, he said yes, sight unseen, how many do you want. There was a disclaimer on the sheet saying sight seen coins might sell at premiums. I watched John Albanese going thru a dealers CAc submissions and why each coin either made it or not. It was very informative and impressive. Remember he was in this from the beginning, he has seen millions of coins and has forgot more about coins than most of us will ever know. Yes the coins with the CAc bean are worth more, they have a second opinion from a professional. I have seen many coins that I shook my head on how did this coin ever get this grade.

CAC does not allow collectors or non "certified" dealers to submit coins for "stickering". I wanted to submit some coins to CAC for the bean. They informed me that I had to go through a selected dealer. I attempted to utilize two dealers in So. Cal one had no physical location and wanted to meet me on the off ramp of a freeway. The other dealer routed me to a Mississippi Gold dealer that had no clue what I was talking about or looking for. I now have second thoughts about sending over $20,000. in graded PCGS coins to these "certified dealers"

I think just the fact alone that the grading scale is continuous is one of the very fun, appealing, and interesting aspects of collecting.

Excellent video... as someone who collects SBAs (probably the only one, LOL) there's often times I'll see coins that would probably get graded a 66, but amongst those there's definitely a difference... and always the ones with the most eye appeal get set aside! Oh, I'd love to have an owl 🦉 sticker on my slabs! Even if it had nothing to do with the grade... maybe a purchased from Old Pueblo Coin sticker... or The Coin Geek (TCG) sticker for coins in that are in a video!

John has told me the reason when I asked why some coins didn't sticker. The grade is actually less than 50% of the reason why it doesn't sticker. 18th and 19th century coins have to be original looking. If you send in a blast white coin it's unlikely to get a CAC sticker. He has told me times when the coin was over graded. Once I sent in a coin that was over graded by 3 grades and got a second opinion locally that he was correct. I don't like his gold CAC stickers because they sell for a huge premium on the secondary market as if they were 3 grades higher.

Good points, good video and I agree with you on these points.

I’ve bought a hanfdful of pcgs coins that were dipped, rubbed, finger prints, etc. so the might be graded correctly but those coins have problems. CAC won’t sticker those minor problem coins. It’s worth the premium offer times.

Good discussion Ben. Great points as always. Beyond the reality that every collector has to decide for themselves what is worth paying for, I see CAC having different value and impact depending on the coin issue. Originality on early American coins has not historically been a focus for PCGS and NGC beyond harshly treated coins. CAC filled that gap with dramatic results in that part of the market.

Got a B+ in math in high school based on the actual score of averaged papers

One interesting effect that CaC has had is lowering the value of non-CaC coins. If most of the top 15% of coins at a grade have been CaCed then the remaining coins are assumed to be in the bottom 85%, whereas before CaC they were just part of the pool. So what the market would have had at 250 would now be 300 and 225. The natural stratification gives those coins value even if people didn't care about stickers.

15:00 - that’s the best part of the video and the crux of what CAC is However it is so widely misunderstood it has morphed into many different things for many different people The slogan seen on the front cover of every monthly greysheet “CAC stickers do not add value” has done nothing but confuse people for as long as that slogan has been there.

I'm sure the investors who bought slabbed coins sight-unseen around 1990 (and vastly overpaid for their coins) would have loved a CAC sticker service.

Thanks for answering my question, Ben. Just for context, I was watching your CAC sticker reveal video when I made the comment, and you were getting crushed on most of your submissions. It did make me wonder what is in it for John Albanese to sticker any coins at all going forward. Now that CACG exists, he's competing with the big two, whereas before he was putting his brand's seal of approval on their work. If it were my company, I wouldn't do that anymore. Maybe I don't understand how business works? 🤷‍♂

Thanks for reading my comment Ben. I was just pointing out that it seems like the percentage of coins coming back stickered has fallen off a cliff in the past 6-12 months. Just based on some of your submissions that seemed like no brainers for their beauty and solid for their grade.

I'm not old enough to know either, at least from first hand experience listening to the original broadcasts, but I'm a bit of a history buff, and if I recall correctly it's "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!".

One commenter was right. It's a reduntant grift. The next thing is a comapany that certifies the green CAC sticker. If eye appeal for a coin is personal then this whole sticker thing is mute. Let the 3rd party graders verify and grade the coin. Then let collectors/dealers pick what they want.

John Albanese was the main guy behind NGC startup back in 1987.

Thanks for the discussion.

Do dealers have access to the database of "failed" CAC submissions?

I don't like CAC. For me, I feel it is becoming popular because many collectors don't take the time to learn to properly grade a coin themselves.

Great, informative video as always! Thanks Ben. Now this is a little off subject... There is a dot on the wall behind you underneath Mr. Owl's chest by his foot that drives me insane. I keep trying to wipe it off of my phone. Please help. 😊

This same goes with PQ sticker, but you don't have to pay for it. Yes you can take 100 same coins that is graded with the same grade, there would be some that looks lot more better than the other one that is the same grade. So CAC to me is like a captain onto of the con that was graded. I think this kind of stuff is getting to the point in where will it end to me . I have bought coins that were slab back in them days like the 90's from auction companies like Heritage and they would put a PQ sticker onto the slab. So the seller pick one of the best one for you and sell it to you. So now we got CAC, isn't that the same except you have to pay for it and it might be worth more dues to the premium to the coin. So to me that is like a scam to build up what the coin is worth base on what these companies say it is worth.

Thank you Ben!!

If there are grades within a grade, why can't they be graded as such, i.e., ms 65.9, 65.8 etc.

I thought they quit doing grading coins at CAC. So are they still grading coins?.😊

Were PCGS and NGC recently (?) sold to profit-oriented, non-coin-oriented corporations? To me, that may be a step backward - so I think I have less trust in the new(?) direction and motives of PCGS and NGC and the inevitable cost-cutting and profits required by stockholders. (IF TRUE) Since there is no "why" to the grade, as you said, I would welcome a second set of eyes for at least some, if not all, of my coins. Grading both sides separately, with explanations would be who I might use along with the individual graders' names. Sometimes some coins really need this more and more it may seem. Grading cost would certainly warrant including this info. as it should already exist. So why not, why the secrecy? Could it be the quality of the graders that are actually determining the value of your assets?

Excellent video! I love your perspective

Very cool Q&A.

Comment down below.

Great video.

Well, not earning the sticker doesn't mean anything really. It's the same as deciding it isn't worth the extra and not sending it in at all. Does CAC keep a record of coins that don't believe deserve a grade or are in the lower tier for that grade? If so, is it searchable? If not, you would never know if something isn't up to par.

Another great video Ben!!!

Sorry, lunch and dinner is lundin.

As always, a great video. Thanks.

Will CACG adopt a decimal scale, like 65.5 or 65.75, or will they still add a green bean to their choice 65 graded coins? Otherwise, the “problem” of where a coin really lies in the “65 window” doesn’t go away just because CACG has graded it, does it?

CAC probably had to not charge people to get people to even try their service to start.

Is an MS65 with a CAC sticker on it usually worth more, the same or less then an MS66 without the sticker?

6:35 - for every grade there’s a wide variation (range might be better) That in and of itself says we need more increments If the range of MS64 from the very lowest 64 to the very highest 64 is that wide, then there aren’t enough increments by definition Me personally I think there are perhaps too many increments already if I had to pick A. Too many or B. Not enough It’s really just marketing And if the consumer (ie collector ie “investor” lol), learned his craft and bought the book before the coin. we might not see the increase in popularity and look aid drinking crowd But alas the coin hobby has become just one more tangible investment vehicle The number of “pure collectors “ has exponentially decreased

I work as an analyst for the US DoTREAS CB3 for about 3 years now. I also collect coins...I'm selling all my coins by 2030 and I recommend all of you who own any US currency to do the same. I love collecting and enjoy the hobby more than most things in life but come 2030 all of my collection and yall(s) will become useless and probably illegal to own. The US is 100% on board with a non tangible currency system and has been handing out contracts left and right for a few years to do so. As of a few weeks ago there are 3 major contractors with a deadline of 2027 and an implementation range of 3 years. If they can somehow find a way to remove the US currency from circulation and replace with a digital one. They WILL make physical currency ONLY THAT OF THE USA...illegal to trade for legal US currency (which will be digital). That's the only way to make the change work and stick so its the only option they have if they follow through. I hate to say it because that means my beautiful collection will be useless. So in short, doesnt matter if you want a bean or not 🤣 The US gov already set in motion the plan to negate all those beans and their worth.

So what will be worth more , the same coin in a PCGS holder with a green bean or a CAC holder with the same graded coin ? If a coin is a low end 63 will CAC still grade it a 63 ? If that same coin looks high end for the 63 grade do I need to send it back to CAC for an additional green bean on top of CAC ! Stop the madness...

thankfully "WINGS" stickers on hammered and ancient coins never took off.

Hi Ben. Rick Tomaska also puts a sticker he calls "Everest" on the highest grade, with excellent eye appeal, for each series, not for each grade, of coins. The coins he stickers are very nice. When will we see the OPC Sticker? OPC Stickers could be for coins that are so hot from being in Tucson that they almost melt!

I'm old enough to have dealt comic books, mostly Golden Age in the 1980s. People would say you are asking more than the price guide- I'd tell people to go find it someplace else. I'm also old enough to remember PCI and how that is connected to a major auction house with a current eye roll over slabbed video games. I'm for some common score, but being old enough to remember, seen the nonsense, and do not understand why people are so willing to take another's opinion on what they hold. I'm shocked at what the hobby has become and I'm in awe at the power of the internet to convince people to follow along and take an opinion as if were coming down off the mountain as The Ten Commandments.... I'm far more disgusted at the common man than the people buying lambos off the unwashed masses. Bring back rotary phones and black and white television- people had more common sense back then.

It's just the human element of grading and coin appeal. pcgs or ngc are great at grading, i think sometimes they slip and undergrade, cac can catch that and throw a green or gold bean on there to help that coin. Also i think cac slips more than anything and don't bean marvelous looking coins. There's two things to know when it comes to CAC. Approving the grade, and eye appeal. Maybe a 3rd, having semi proof like or csmeo features. Which kind if goes to eye appeal

Buy the coin; not the holder!

Is cac still not accepting sticker memborships? Thanks for the video Ben.

This is why I collect paper currency

Second opinion is always better. Problem is now we are losing that. The busier they get the less stickering they will be doing

To me it is no different than buying a certified used car. I bought one that was previously owned by one of their mechanics. A no brainer right? WRONG. within the first week I had to take it to the shop. Turns out the parts that failed were aftermarket. Part of the certification is to verify everything is OEM. I just paid extra for nothing. Also, those stickers are just a subjective opinion. One of the members here stated that he had many coins that were refused a sticker. He broke them out and had them regraded and then they received a sticker. The same exact coins. Do I really care if my AU58 is really a 58+ or 58-?

Who certifies CAC?

I have never bought a coin for a flashy holder and a green beene. I buy the coin not stickers and holders.

I've never had much respect for CAC. To be consistent, one must admit that either the grading companies are incompetent or that CAC is an unnecessary redundancy. I also think CAC excluding ANACS is criminal, and ANACS should sue them. The only way CAC could be fair and consistent is to have a rejection sticker for submitted coins that do not get a green or gold bean, maybe a black bean. Only then could their service be considered honest in my eyes.

It's a money grab. ANA needs to create a brand new system

I give Ben a Pinto Bean on this video!

Tooooooooo many mom and pop CAC coins out there!!!

Why does CAC cater to Dealers?

I can attest that PCGS has never over-graded my coins. Ever. Everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............................

I have coins with your owl on them.

UNCLE JIMMY! HAHAHAHA

You can't send coins to CAC unless you're a dealer, it's idiotic.

If there is not a created market or false market then remove the cac sticker and see what it brings you or better yet buy a common date coin 1881 s Morgan that is cac approved take it to ten coin shops you will not recover no more value for that coin same applies when coin dealers say it’s a nice 64 really nice so I will sell it for 65 money the whole coin industry is so GREY and nobody wants to fix issue with how coins are traded to collectors that is my issue and same with cac

CAC will be the #4 best TPGS when they start. Will they overtake ANACS, NGC, and PCGS? Who knows.........

I've always been one who has been against CAC for the most part. I have probably 5 or 6 in my collection with the CAC sticker but I didn't buy them for that reason. I have a friend who has been thinking of getting into buying pre-1933 certified coins......I told him stay away from stickered coins because I told him he will end up paying a premium just for that sticker. I told him buy the coin not the holder or the presence of a CAC sticker.

A.I. will be grading coins in the near future 🤫

I don't buy graded coins so my opinion don't mean much but I think the idea of cac stickers is lame

#AlbaneseDoesntKnowColor

Don’t simp for grading companies. So tired of seeing commenters defending those fiends.

I won't buy a CAC.....just not worth it to me

The price for CAC coins is not a false market. The price for CAC coins is set by the market like every thing else.