Centerline Theory is Fake and Made Up 

Still getting a lot of comments saying, "Um, aCtUaLlY, centerline means this other thing!" Every style, lineage, and practitioner of wing chun and jkd define centerline differently. Sometimes WILDLY differently. The definition in the video is the most common definition I have encountered. I'm not wrong, you were just taught different terminology. That's why I defined centerline at the beginning of the video! So we would all be on the same page.

The closest thing to a practical application of this idea is probably in some grappling concepts. Fighting for... and capitalizing on head position is one. In a grappling stance, keeping your elbows tucked in and hands out in front of them is probably the closest to the idea of the longsword. The positioning of your arms helps you both actively and passively defend inside position and handfight.

I see your well reasoned, logical argument and raise you a "nuh uh!" *sprints out of room swirling hands across head in a befuddling Keysi system tactical whirlwind of impenetrable three dimensional Dark Knight defensive gesturing

This lends evidence to a theory that I have had for a while now that most of wing chun's unarmed fighting is actually training drill for armed combat whose context has been forgotten. It just looks so similar to may of the warm up drill we do in HEMA and even the theory seems to match that of armed fighting.

When I did chinese martial arts, my instructor de-mystified the center-line theory a bit by saying "the center" actually just refers to the opponent's spine, and that you have to disrupt his balance first in order to have a shot at making any of the techniques work. Kinda similar to making Judo throws work against a resisting opponent. I think wing chun should be looked at as more of a grappling art than a striking one. If you just stand still, stiff as a board and try to slap your opponents punches out of the way, it's not gonna end well.

Have any of the wing chun nerds said “Chinese butterfly swords, not English long swords!” yet? If you want to witness one of the most pedantic nerdy arguments ever (next to who would win, Superman bs the Hulk) get a wing chun nerd and a Bagua Zhang nerd in the same room. They’ll never spar with each other, but they’ll argue all day about wing chun center line theory vs Bagua off-center theory.

"Get your head off line!" is the extent of my motherline usage. lol

Okay so, my instructor teaches wing chun as part of his system, and he has never spoken about center line as being a static central guard. He's always spoken about controlling it as in keeping yours pointed towards your opponent while keeping off of theirs. Or in short, keep them in front of you without being in front of them. As for protecting the centre line, you control it with your guard. So if you have your hands either side of your face, your center line is open but that means you dictate what options are available to your opponent, in this case strikes through the middle. If your guard is more centered (not exactly center though), then your opponent is more likely to go for outside shots as straights are easier for you to guard against. So being aware of your center line, and how your actions can be exploited, means you are better able to control a fight. This whole strike from the centre thing needs to stop too. You may be striking for the center (face, solar plexus etc), but your strikes are not coming from the centre. It's as bad as people thinking the one inch punch is a technique (it's not, it's a kinetic chain exercise) or that piston punches are devastating (they're not, they are weak but they are fast for the sake of overwhelming for a moment and clearing hands).

Bjj girl here The centaur line control is actually a grappling thing They move linearly to close the distance faster, u get in close and get your hands on the inside for collar ties and wrist fighting That’s what wing chung actually is, it’s what wrestlers call handfighting! If your opponent throws hooks and your fast enough (and very importantly close enough!), u can obtain inside elbow control which is crazy powerful It allows u to push them and the only way for them to disengage gives u a free strike

You kinda mention it earlier in the video: using the centerline approach isn't just getting off of it, but reestablishing it. You use lateral movement, for example a v step, to get off the opponent's centerline and put him in front of yours during. That concept can be found in pretty much all combat sports: Cut an angle in (kick-)boxing and hit with a straight punch, duck under in wrestling and take the back, side step in fencing and thrust, etc. It boils down to: don't stand in front of your opponent and try to face a side of him, that he can't defend. So technically Wing Tsun is correct. The method is just taught in an often unpractical way. The armed techniques make a little more sense though. The centerline guard you showed, is kinda neat when dual wielding short swords. You can establish range, constantly threat thrusts and parry most incoming blows with minimal movement.

“Punches come ur feet 👣 not ur shoulders.”~Jack Dempsey

I haven't watched this yet, but I'm already excited for the comments and fallout

I look forward to your next video about this in about five years. It'll be interesting to see what new insights you'll have then.

Any chance we can divide the comments into two groups? 1) Commenters that spar 2) Commenters that don’t spar but know everything

WC teaches centre line because the first stance is square as opposed to other stances that are left leading. In left leading you can cover your front with pivoting, where WC you need to cover your centre line because it’s fully exposed. That being said it is only taught in the first form for beginners so it’s like saying boxing jabs are wrong because it doesn’t work against advanced techniques. The jab is just the first thing you learn not what the martial art is about and that goes the same for WC centre line theory.

I'm a bit confused--yeah I'm sure there's strict and useless ideas of the centerline, but I always assumed it was just a way of thinking about and managing space? It's not very different from "straight punches hit fastest" and occupying that space with guards/smothers/your own blows. Even just throwing out a mummy guard, if you're not being an idiot with it. That's without talking about stepping off and footwork generally. It seems like there's lots of ways of understanding the centerline/direct paths that work just fine? Yeah, something something shoulders are off-center anyway, but that seems a deliberately narrow and uncharitable way of interpreting this. Lot of narrow and uncharitable ways practitioners apply this too, but. Y'know.

I came to the realization in a longer path. Day 1 of Pekiti Tirsia Kali, " If you stay on centerline you are going to get hit/cut. " The footwork reflected that and took my striking to a new level. The next time I saw it emphasized to the same extent, was when people started to teach me how to box. The way my friends brother showed me to box, the centerline is fucking precious. Everything is a battle of positioning where you don't even wanna give up your shoulder line. The closest to pekiti tirsia footwork I've seen in empty hands, is boxing footwork used by guys like Willy Pep, or Tyson's D'Amato shifts. Dominick Cruz's ass too. I took...one winch chun lesson at a seminar from a dude who I think can use it. The funny thing is, that stuff is more likely to work when you're off their centerline. Which is why kali arm trappy stuff is more viable, bc it's closer to fighting for a wrestling two on one or arm drag vs trying to close off arms while you're in front of all his weapons ( and in position for him to shoot on you ).

You sound like someone who just doesn’t understand the ancient wisdom of Leung Ting and the black dragon wing chun society. I dare you to fight another wing chun practitioner (who isn’t me) and has never won a real fight themselves, but presents themselves as a real tough guy. Outside of that though, this is definitely one of your best videos to date. Great work!

You are 100% wrong. My win chung sensei who teaches center teseract theory totally teaches you how to defend yourself from infinite center planes while attacking the groins of your eyes and the eye of your groin.

"Generating power solely by stepping into your strike often fail to do sufficient damage" Shoot the point from Sprechfenster go brrrrr

I did Wing Chun for a while... Never heard of this version of centerline.... I always thought it was in reference to your opponents and yours individual lines of balance and that the "centerline" was basically a pole in the center of u or ur opponent going from the floor to your head... In my mind the centerline was used to demonstrate balance and how to try and throw someone off balance while maintaining yours... But then my wing Chun teacher always taught us 50/50 stance as opposed to the 70/30 that most traditional wing Chun uses... So idk if other schools did teach this "center line plane" thing... Basically our centerline theory was to make sure we didn't hunch too forward or throw punches that over extended and messed with our balance, basically the main reason we fight up close to avoid that, and then we would as u demonstrated change positions (go off of the face to face line or whatever it's called) but still attacking our opponents centerline/centerpole/balance... basically if the opponent was "pushing" their energy and commiting to one direction we would change angles and let them over extend or get off balance and attack from a different angle

Highly thought provoking videos mate. You bring up amazing points. You seem to be right. One application of centerline seems in Judo gripfighting when RvL. In that case you try to grab the collar and keep your arm inside while forcing the other person outside. That way there is more options for offense and defense as the grip in mechanically stronger. Other than that it seems in most striking and grappling stuff it seems best to try to get offline and flank or get behind the person.

Lol i was going to try and argue but you're fucking right lol

Are you refering to the wing chun guard ( which i agree is a bit daft) or center line theory as they are vastly different? Centre line ( the line in the middle of the body) and central line ( the line bettween yours and your oponents center line) ( different things but usually used together not in isolation) is in Many many martials arts to one degree or another not just wing chun based ones

Your girlfriend is a saint for playing swords with you on youtube

As someone that has practiced Wing Chun for 8 years, my understanding of the Centerline Theory was a bit different. The Centerline was an efficient way to teach a variety of concepts in a short amount of time: Short-Distance Power, Hand Speed, Balancing, Pivoting, and Reacting on One Tempo. *Short-Distance Power* Wing Chun punches were designed for smaller fighters to maximize damage against bigger fighters by striking their center of mass FROM your center of mass. Other styles do this as well, but the vertical fist protects the hand in bare knuckle altercations. (Old school bareknuckle boxers used vertical fists for the same reason). It’s the same power behind the One Inch Punch (which isn’t really hard to learn btw) and can be generated from ANY stance. *Hand Speed* Keeping the hands on the centerline is meant for responding quickly to incoming attacks and increasing the volume of strikes that can be thrown. If you’re familiar with Wing Chun, you’d know that 90% of the techniques are defensive. There’s only so many strikes that can be thrown from the center, but it’s fine since you’re training for short distance power anyway. *Balancing* The Centerline is essentially your center of mass. Normal fighters use bladed stances to make themselves smaller targets while shifting in and out of range. However, Wing Chun doesn’t get a lot of credit for it’s footwork potential. Take up the classic Wing Chun stance, lift up your foot a couple inches from the ground towards the direction you want to go, and press off your back foot into that direction. All Wing Chun hand techniques (and some kicks) can be performed with this footwork without losing balance. *Pivoting* One criticism that I agree with about Wing Chun is occupying the Centerline making you vulnerable to outside attacks. The answer I was given for attacks that land off center was to take the blow and pivot off into a counter, but my floating ribs taught me this was a very bad idea. I’m thankful it wasn’t my head. The answer I came up with was to turn that disadvantage into an advantage by baiting my opponent into an outside attack. I can press on their forearm and shift my centerline off target (side stepping if needed), and realign my hands towards their center of mass. This is really good for chin shots, liver shots, neck chops, sweeps, or (if you give absolute no fucks) one of the coldest hooks you’ll throw in your life. *Reacting on One Tempo* Wing Chun is designed to maximize a smaller person’s aggression in close range. The techniques don’t look that effective at first glance, because they’re meant to be combined with other principles. When attacks come at you, you always need to respond with One Tempo (attacking while defending). In a self defense scenario, you become someone that your attacker has to respect, or else they’ll get punished immediately. In a one on one fight, it’s an excellent way to keep aggressive opponents on the back-foot and gain momentum without exhausting yourself.

Dude was literally going to say I learnt centre line for broad sword. I did Wing Chun, prior to MMA, your example in the video was so apt, got my nose Booped when trainer showed me the flaws. So like you pointed out centre line became a either a danger zone or a position you move to create exploits. But mostly was taught to forget it. Thanks for these videos

I’m loving your sound arguments. Normally I just roll my eyes at RU-vid “fight science” guys, but you consistently hit the mark.

i use a long guard for boxing which is controlling the centre line via "defensive traffic" and works very well against straight shots. It forces opponents to use slower and more easily detected hook shots.

So happy that you talked about longswords. Truly one of the few 'sports' where it really matters. But I would have hit through the first block :P

5:44 As the coach screams "Get your head offline" and i ask myself what he means by it, as i ran face first into a one two, then i got what he meant

The wide eye when she changed the centerline too, lol. Cracked me up

UR TERMINOLOGY IS WRONG!!! My tactical chi eye-gouging kata has won all of my 7,000 street fights!!!

Centerline can be good short hand for head and hand placement and movement. The real value of Wing Chun is the trapping and sticking, which isn’t going to work unless you actually practice fighting, and is better learned as a part of an overall martial arts game.

In a WC straight punch you bring/pull your elbow from the side into the center line, so your forearm and fist is on the center

@1:00 , oh... I was about to chime in about controlling the line in my tradition along with how and why it works. Then you immediately addressed my tradition (although vaguely). My tradition includes Liechtenauer & Meyer :-) You run that later are you clarified that there's a lot of actions (most) where the express point is to get off the line.

I think Wing chun uses centerline because it was originally practiced with butterfly swords. I might be wrong but many of the trapping/sticky arms, etc, techniques were come up with so that you can deflect and control the opponents weapon. Just my theory though

Great to see some HEMA slipping in (especially Fiore), and interestingly when I saw the title my first through was "what about weapons?" So you got me, good work.

Well they don’t call it center line but my wrestling coach (at a bjj school not regular wrestling) talks about a bull rush style double where you use your somewhere on the center line to do a blast double without having to do a full shot

Interesting points made here. What is the name of the outro song?

Interesting video! I like that you adressed how classic boxing uses the centerline concept. Even if only as a basic idea of where a counter straight is going to be, it's sound boxing to preemptively move your head away. I am curious as to what you make of sport fencing, specifically épée in this context. It's very niche, I'll admit, but when your weapon is entirely designed around poking in a straight line, do you think that the idea of a centerline holds more merit?

Lol I love the song at the end, this needs to be on Spotify

Hey man great video. Curious to get your take on Richard Dimitris shredder principle (Sinshiedo)

"This concept has virtually no application outside of weapons combat. First of all, punches don't come down the center line. Punches originate from your shoulders, neither of which is on the center line." *Bill "Superfoot" Wallace has entered the chat.*

I'd like to hear your opinion of the Wing Chun Wooden Dummy and form/s

Good points! However, I was always taught that we focus on the centerline (I have a background in JKD & Wing Chun, among other arts like GJJ & Muay Thai) because most of the body’s weak points fall on the centerline. Such as the eyes, the nose, the throat, the solar plexus, and the groin.

You just give me the understanding of a bridge between centerline and sword fighting thank you.

As someone that really loved learning Wing Chun this hurt a bit to hear at first, but you're pretty spot on with your analysis. When I was learning Wing Chun, they spoke about Center Line theory, but they also included "central lines" into the mix. (It's been a few years so I may be misremembering) But essentially the central lines are 45° pointing out from the cebter line, basically imagine two imaginary lines that start in your spine and go out through your shoulders. The basic premise was, you want to get your central line off target using footwork while punching off your central lines. It was mostly to help with your stance and footwork, since if you were in a proper (Southern Temple style) Wing Chun stance, your central line would be about 45° offline from your opponent while you faced them with your lead shoulder. What really helped me about "punching of your central line" was footwork, and learning how to actually just move my hand forward to punch instead of reflexively winding up or pulling back. I know my explanation wasn't great, but if anyone does have questions I'll do my best to answer.

Dude you're that Baki character who explains the underlying theory behind every single movement in any combat

Centre line theory in competitive combat sports, does fencing count?

Attacking the centreline would not land a hit if the opponent dodges, but positioning your hand near the centreline can make it easier to trap the incoming punch.

Nice explanation. Especially about, body positioning, All I'll say is that although there is such a thing as the center line you mentioned, as you did explain, tho it has alot more to do with just simply that. Like everything in martial arts it is meant to work together and not alone. And majority of the time in martial arts when something refers to a center, it is speaking of your center of mass, aka the actual center of you, your center of gravity, not the physical middle point of your chest lol

can you do san soo?

spoken about as well as someone who doesn't understand wing chun, refuses to see his own contradictions about getting off the center line for HIS purposes but doesn't allow wing chun practitioners to do the same (which multiple lineages train to get off the centerline all the time), and doesn't understand how to generate power without a large wind up move to gain momentum.

It's both very annoying and very amusing how many Wing Chun practitioners comments are like "Center Line Theory is actually this" or "Wing Chun teaches you all about moving off-line". Wow, it's almost like there's no one consistent curriculum to your ancient chinese knife-less hand-trapping martial art. I'm not gonna learn 10 years of bad grip fighting when I can just practice the same concepts anywhere else but without a ton of bullshit attached.

Dude, THANK you. Regardless of your style, if you hang out in the “center line” in unarmed combat, you’re just gonna have a shit time. We’ve gotta learn (those of us that practice styles that are based on weapon use) that there are some horrible false cognates when we translate weapons to empty hand. It can’t be done without rigorous testing.

so... when is the closing theme soundtrack on spotify?

This is so awesome!! I have said something similar (though not as eloquently as you) for some time, and have mentioned this in my podcast. Bad hand-to-hand concepts sometimes are good weapons concepts. I think this is why so many WC practitioners gravitate to weapons like sticks i.e.Kali etc. as it makes intuitive sense to them, whereas much of modern functional combat sports arts do not. While I can't speak for the Chinese tradition in depth I can say that much bad hand to hand combat from the Japanese tradition is actually weapon combat movements and weapon combat footwork. Wing Chun makes much more sense if you put two swords in their hands. That being said, your points on footwork are very apt and absolutely true. I have heard some stories that arts that do not stress foot work developed in places where foot work was less possible, like tight alleyways or swampy jungles etc. Anyway this video was fantastic!! Thank you!!!!

I'm not doing wing chun, but does it make more sense if you think in terms of direction of attack? Or isn't that the same thing? So you can get out of that line while you still face your opponent to attack him while being safe like a check hook or slip cross.

is there a similar concept which is called centerline in boxing as well?

Yes, but what about middle geometry hypothesis?

Duuude, I was just about to yell "longsword". Didn't know you also did historical fencing :^D .

I think positional advantage is a better concept. Putting yourself in a position where are more likely to be able to hit your opponent and they are less likely to hit you. Not being directly in front of your opponent (or on their centerline) is the most simple way to gain positional advantage. It’s a small part of a larger concept

This video is going to sting a _little_ bit lmfao! This theory actually helped my ADHD brain simply the sometimes(for me)overwhelming complexity of Striking. Hyped to learn and progress regardless📝

This is a very important video and I’m glad you did this. I did a response to you, agreeing with much of what you present.

Alright alright, let's stop with centerline and start with hairline

When I trained with an indoor student of Garrett Gee's branch we only heard about "the box" for theory. Basically, the shoulders and hips make a rectangle and the hands can move toward or away from the center within the box. Also, moving out of the box typically leads to power loss. I have only heard about centerline theory from the Western students whose line goes back to Ip Man. Anyway, this Baguazhang nerd is more than happy to spar within agreed upon rules if anyone comes to Phoenix, Arizona area for a visit.

Question,have you ever trained properly in wing chun, like years of training not just for a short time! ?

The core concept of the Centerline, that you should protect the center of your body, fundamentally is correct. The issue is the way different martial arts interpret this through techniques.

Did wc for a while then quit and now i do bjj. It helped me alot with bjj, understanding how to manipulate the body. Its not as black and white as you said about the center line and its also more about your own center line than the other (thats how it was taught to me anyways, some people different ways i assume). I like the hema part cause im also interested in it and the wc idea also works with it. Also interested in kali and wanna try it

This one is gonna ruffle some feathers

In Kosho Ryu Kempo, Karate Kempo etc. They talk about the center line, inside the Octagon. Maybe if there are any practitioners around they can share some more info on that, but as I see it. The octagon shows you how to move around, attack/defend in various angles. Obviously the center line is in the middle. Anyone has more info on haw all this works?

When dealing with full guard i remember there's some talk about controlling the center of placement.

to be fair like most kung fu forms wing chun would eventually transition to weapon usage.

despite i am not doing wingchun, i always understood the centerline term more as a field which is covering your front side. i might be wrong on this one here but that makes more sense to me because exactly what you say, punches normally not coming from the centerline😅

What is the outro song?

4:25 Hi AV stepping into your strikes doesn't cause damage? What did you mean? In my experience it definitely does. Interesting video BTW!

"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, and add what is specifically your own." - Bruce Lee

In wing chun it's bit fixated on their guard stance, but in jkd it's more flexible, we don't fixate our guard on center line but instead we have 2 barriers, front and back in a bladed stance, but we tend to land our attacks favoured in the center line.

Had no idea you did HEMA. Very cool. 😎

After more than 10 years of Wing Chun (being always suspicious of centerline theory) i figured out that centerline theory does not work with two handed fighting. This was confirmed when I started boxing/muay thai and sparring. I think the theory comes from long pole so it is applicable to long sword. With two hands I stick to the shoulder line (as you mentioned in your long guard video). But only being on the line does not help because round attacks can hit. So I have to actively meet the attack. Shoulder line is merely a guideline but now it also works in sparring. Everything has to be tested. I also use a hip line as a guiding way to check kicks.

I know basically Jack shit about the striking part, but the HEMA was right. I love hearing the word Gambeson outside of the HEMA community. The long sword stance chosen is really only used for beginners or when fighting someone vastly better than you, I much prefer fool's guard or plow.

What about wing chun long pole?

It's all very well saying (about 4:14) that no one holds position for more than a second and then using very static looking examples of why centre line is no good. You most vulnerable points are predominantly on your centre line - the object is to protect them as best you can. Also, does a punch come from your shoulder, your elbow or your fist?

Have you studied WCK? You seem to know so much about WCK, enough to be an expert on what CLT is. Who did you study with?

Jon Jones uses eye pokes, which is W/C, and the oblique kick and lead side leg kick are two of the eight stop kicks. He uses all these regularly in his fights. Wing Chin isn't just about centrepiece theory. Drills such as chi sau can improve stand up grappling and clinch work, and the wooden dummy, combined with other drilks, will do to your arms what Muay Thai does for legs. It wasn't designed for MMA, half a millennial ago. But can be a useful tool or addition to any martial artist.

trains at metrolina too, i love it. irons sharpens armchair

Interesting. When I first saw this I was like “idk, it seems pretty effective with swords and staffs (…staves? 🤷🏻‍♂️),” but good points in the difference and, of course, its never solely about controlling the center even with swords.

As a wing chun guy, I already predicted what your main point was before I clicked on your video! So I was not so fussed with your argument. The centerline is just the axis along your median plane, Wing Chun teaches me to off-balance someone's centerline.

Interesting. Ive only heard of the center-line as a good place to steike your opponent, not as a perfect defensive idea. And i have only heard that centerline concept from kung fu practicioners. I imagine youre right that the origins are from weapon fighting

Actually at 5:00 a lot of fighters guard mainly their centerline, because punches can't come from everywhere, as long as distance allows only straights. So circling down catches all hights. What I love about chain punches : I don't have to worry, what the dudes other short arm is doing.

I think you confuse centerline theory in central plane theory. The central plane fighting concept is only to teach somebody basics in training. The center line only refers to yourself and where are you position your arms in relation to your body. You were supposed to move off the central plane when you fight and attack from the flank, cannot stand there and fight in the center. You’d have to study wing chun to understand what I’m talking about but if you’ve ever seen anybody performing basic wooden dummy form, you will see that they constantly shift to the side and move off of the center plane to attack.

And on another note apart from the center line thing, the stance you mentioned, the one you see people doing all the time in a fight for some reason. That's not actually intended to be a "fighting stance" , it's actually what you could call a "training stance". But it's to develop the arms to better hold themselves up and more efficiently bring themselves up to guard and attack and that position and kind of movement will develop the necessary muscles and tendons. But yes anyone just standing there exactly like for a fight that is doing wing Chun and fighting wrong lol(it's main literal use, as you pointed out, tho still kinda modified in areas is with the butterfly knives form)

_"We will hold the line."_ Captain Kirrahe, during the Virmire mission, Mass Effect. Maybe all Wing Chun people.

4:26 - love your content, but I think you're wrong here: if I just place a sword on your arm, and then drag it with pressure, you'll be left with cut probably all the way to the bone and bleeding a lot because swords aren't really sharp second thing: I saw some wing chung wooden dummy training, and I think that it not only looks cool but could also work really well, because I've never seen someone fight like this (so your oponent wont expect that) and it really looks like 1. a really fast way to get your hands on someones face 2. that you can generate power/leverage from there What do you think?

I don't think you understand how much lateral movement is used in wing chun

Off topic, but were you in drum line or marching band in high school?

Yep. When I went to do some wing chun it was that lack of lateral movement which really made me realise it was rubbish. Indeed, I'm not against cente line, but more for throwing and grappling. You want to move around and attack in front of you, while they're looking in a different direction.

Yes, the direct centerline in most styles of Wing Chun is fairly useless. In reality: every radian around a person’s center is the centerline. So you can go through someone’s center from the flank or rear. You can also move through the center of a limb to control or damage a joint. Likewise, all effective techniques either move towards our center (like a hook or round kick) or emerge from our center (like a straight punch or side kick).

Center line is one of the fundamentals of boxing, though wing chun completely misunderstands it.