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"You must hold God to the same standard as everyone else." This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. If God and humans are identical and should be on even footing, then God is not God. He's just another one of us.
@@applicableapple3991 on the one hand, we should indeed set him to that standard and discover that he is truly just. On the other hand, there are things like killing. Dying is just moving to heaven or hell. God is the author of life and it is just for God to move people to heaven or hell. Also, God is the judge so he is allowed to punish. The reason we men arent allowed to kill is that we try to steal Gods power to move people into heaven or hell. So for God there are slightly different rules because some rules have to do with dishonoring God
God is fictional. So why care? Oh right. Because ideals are standards, and God is a delusional representation of those standards as long as God is seen as a material being.
@@stnbch3025 then who created everything? Don’t say Big Bang because then what made the atoms that caused it? God doesn’t need to be created because he is the creator. God is above Time, space, matter, etc. none of those things affect him he is out of those things, if it did affect him, he wouldn’t be God and I wouldn’t be writing this to you since there’s no one to create life
God deserves to be worshiped because He said so is the truest answer, but from a human perspective God deserves to be worshiped because He has given you every good thing! Your very life, all the laughs, all the thrills, all the children, all the music, all the love, all the beauty, all the taste of food, and people give God no thanks, no homage, talk about ungrateful. It is absolutely ungrateful to the highest degree to say God does not deserve worship and to not worship God.
Brian Stevens God did create Lucifer good and then he chose to rebel. God also made the world perfect(no evil, no death) then man sinned and as judgement God cursed all of creation. Satan/Demons tempt people but they do not make us sin(do evil). All the evil in the world is of our own making. I don't like the word bad because it can be very subjective, I prefer to use the word evil. God also cause calamities, He controls the weather and sometimes He kills people, but He never sins(does evil) in all of it. Those things may be bad to us but it is not evil because calamities caused by Him are judgments. He allows sinful(evil) things to happen but He does not cause sinful behavior. And there is a big difference between a calamity and evil. You may call a calamity bad but it is not evil, many people think it is evil of God to cause a calamity that kills hundreds of people but that's because most people have no clue what we actually deserve. I think what people do not understand in this type of thing is that God owns everything, He owes us nothing, we owe Him everything. Something that helps put things into perspective is understanding Gods character, He is Holy and righteous, God not killing us the second we commit a sin is mercy. this is all about how high and perfect God is, but since people have such a low and twisted view of God they can never rationalize God causing calamities or killing people.
Good exchange; though I believe the college student, though respectful, had disdain written all over her face. Mark Spence is right; in some instances circular reasoning is all you can use when it pertains to an absolute source. For Mark, it's God and His Word. For the college student, it's her own reasoning. Yet the most telling question is the one Mark asked her, if he could give her any proof, would she worship God and she honestly said no. I once asked an atheist this as well and got the same answer. This is the reason debating only goes so far because for atheists, its about winning an argument or demonstrating their intellect. For believers, winning an argument or demonstrating any knowledge or wisdom doesn't save a lost person. Only the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16), but we answer questions when we can and from the scriptures. At some point, we must move on because many atheists want to be right. This is the reason when I post things on RU-vid and unsaved people post insults or questions in return, I ignore the posts if they're just insulting and I'll answer the questions only to a point. After that point, I'll post a gospel message and won't post again. It's about the salvation of the lost, not a debate.
+Eric Smith As an atheist myself, I can tell you I have no disdain for any of the gods in which I don't believe. If you could prove that there is a god and that god happens to be the god of the Christian Bible (or Torah or Quran), I wouldn't worship him because he is undeserving of my worship. He has lower moral and ethical standards than I do and he has committed far worse crimes than I have. Here's a question for your personal morals: If you observed a 10 year old child raping a 5 year old child, would you attempt to stop it? If "yes", congratulations, you're better than God because God sees that and much worse things happening all the time and does nothing. If "no", congratulations, you're no better than God and following his example well, but be aware that you may be a psychopath. Either way, someone who does nothing isn't worthy of MY worship.
JJLatBIM There is no need to answer your assertions because you've already decided you're the moral authority. In addition, you ask questions about a god you don't believe in trying to "show" that my god makes no sense. Therefore, anything I answer you would not be relevant to you because you don't think God exists, you think He's immoral, and you worship yourself. Taking all those things in consideration, you've already decided your source of action and the only thing I can tell you that you're a sinner who has broken God's absolute moral law (1 John 3:4, Romans 3:23) and you are commanded to repent of those sins and believe Christ died and rose again. God is loving and gracious to tell you this through His people. (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2:8-9) If you don't believe, then live your life the way you want to and don't worry about it. After all, if god doesn't exist and we're silly to believe it, why waste your time commenting unless you just believe you're superior to me and self-righteously want to prove that by asking questions you think you have all the answers to? Think about it, what is worse; the Christian that lives his life believing the "myth" or an atheist having his life dictated by fighting against that "myth?" I can comment to you this one time and just tell you to repent and trust the Lord Jesus Christ and pray that you do. Now ask yourself, does your pride swell up when you read this that you have to comment and get the last word to prove you're right about something that isn't real? It shows that "myth" bothers you so much that it controls your actions. That also shows you down deep know it's not a myth. I've done what I've needed to do in your case, so I don't have to comment to you again. How about you?
+Eric Smith I made no claim of moral authority. I only claimed that MY morals, and I assumed your morals, are higher than those of the god described in the Bible. "you ask questions about a god you don't believe in trying to "show" that my god makes no sense" - No, I asked a question about you. "and you worship yourself" - I worship no one. "if god doesn't exist and we're silly to believe it, why waste your time commenting" - While I have absolutely no fear or worry about any god, I do fear what people do according to their beliefs. Because of their religious faith, believers are prone to do harmful, deadly, and silly things to themselves, their children, and the rest of society. If believers would keep their beliefs private and not let it influence the law or the rest of society, I would probably not comment. Then again, if you say silly things in public, then I'm bound to react. "what is worse; the Christian that lives his life believing the "myth" or an atheist having his life dictated by fighting against that "myth?" - As long as they limit action actions to the simple act of "believing" or "not believing" and don't act on that belief in a way that negatively impacts my life, then I'm equally indifferent. "does your pride swell up when you read this that you have to comment and get the last word to prove you're right about something that isn't real?" - I originally meant only to rebut your implication that it's meaningful that an atheist would admit they would not worship the god of the Bible even if someone could possibly prove its existence, and to explain why I, for one, would not worship that god. I don't think I need to prove myself about "something that isn't real", but it does make me feel better about people when they admit to the irrationality of their position. "It shows that "myth" bothers you so much that it controls your actions." - It strikes me as odd that people believe myths. I don't think it actually bothers me though. What might actually bother me is some of the actions that people take out of belief in myths. "That also shows you down deep know it's not a myth." - Is that how you think? Do you deny the myth of Islam? If so, does that mean that you down deep know it's not a myth?
Brilliant and powerful? Only if you are a simpleton. The girl was likely an actor. Here I will do it the way it should have been done. I know my ability to reason is sound because I am able to form arguments that are not circular nor self contradictory, nor does it contain any other logical fallacies, such as but not limited to ad hominem fallacy, you moron. I don't use my ability to reason as an argument I use my ability to reason to form my argument, that is not circular. Circular reasoning is always wrong as an argument, all it amounts to is saying my argument is reasonable because I used my ability to reason to form the argument.
The thing is that God is a living God, He is not a fairly tale. He says in the bible, that we will find Him when we look for Him with all our hearts! And us believers have. Not necessarily seen him, but felt his presence, his answered prayers, his divine interventions at perfect timings and just the way He works in our lives and the transformation we experience, its not of this world. If God were to be a made up thing, the believe would have died a long time ago.
God is super natural, what He is capable of is not familiar to this world's wisdom or logic. God makes it simple, ask him look for him with your heart, its that simple, No one can tell me that i believe blindly, i know that i know is God. That's why He left the bible so we know how He is and who He is and the fact that people dont believe in God doesn't mean He doesn't exist or proves his non existence.
Thomas Bridgewater I am not going to try to convince you bec its as simple as this: Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. If you are not willing to give this a try then dont come discrediting my personal experience. Have a blessed life, i will pray for you
She seems like a very intelligent person. However, I sense bitterness and a bad case of self-superiority...all we can do is pray for her. And remember that we all have our own problems.
she is likely an actor, I however am not. I know my ability to reason is sound because I am able to form arguments that are not circular nor self contradictory, nor does it contain any other logical fallacies, such as but not limited to ad hominem fallacy, you moron. I don't use my ability to reason as an argument I use my ability to reason to form my argument, that is not circular. Circular reasoning is always wrong as an argument, all it amounts to is saying my argument is reasonable because I used my ability to reason to form the argument.
Reasoning becomes circular reasoning when it delivers an outcome that provides the original statement as proof of the original statement. That means the process is concluded therefor reasoning becomes circular when reasoning stops. Therefor reasoning itself isn't circular.
Well done Mark? HA! The girl was likely an actor. Here I will do it the way it should have been done. I know my ability to reason is sound because I am able to form arguments that are not circular nor self contradictory, nor does it contain any other logical fallacies, such as but not limited to ad hominem fallacy, you moron. I don't use my ability to reason as an argument I use my ability to reason to form my argument, that is not circular. Circular reasoning is always wrong as an argument, all it amounts to is saying my argument is reasonable because I used my ability to reason to form the argument.
What this lady doesn't realize is that circular reasoning is only fallacious when one is trying to prove it ... circular reasoning in and of itself is not fallacious, as Mark Spence described.
I love this. For him, this was very simple debate. He knew, soon as she mentioned "circular reasoning", its a trap for her. Too sad... they dont have grasp of what he is trying to say.
God does not deserve worship only because he commands it but because he created everything in the universe and the smaller things that we do worship. Why not worship the creator instead of the things he created. The creator is so much more important.
Love it... "so you're using circular reasoning to say circular reasoning is fallacious." uh burn? Atheists-0 Theists-1 Angry confused people in 3...2...1...
If God is real and I believe He is He deserves worship because of who he is and what He has done. Not only because he said so. A little week on that point but I loved when he said 'if I answered all your questions on who God is they would not bow the knee because it's the harsh reality of mans depravity.'
Very interesting. that girl is smart tho. deep down atheists know that God exists but they CHOOSE not to admit it for various reasons, primarily bcs they want to continue in their sinful lifestyle without being accountable to anyone.
It is a valid reason Max... I mean the way evil is so rampant in the world, one cannot help but wonder if God truly exit. But again, the opposite is always true, just like there is day and night. If the evil or darkness is great, there is an even greater light that opposes this darkness and that light is Jesus Himself. Jesus came to the world not just to forgive our sins but also to reconcile us back with God and give us inner peace. But when someone rejects Jesus, he/she rejects the very peace He came to bring. I mean we are living in a world where the governments and most people are literally making sure to completely reject God from their lives. And when you reject God from your life, you'll have no defence system left for the enemy to come into your life, community, country etc and do as he pleases. The Bible says that Satan only comes to steal, kill and destroy. But those who have repented and put their trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation, not only do they have their sins forgiven, but much more, they have peace and joy. And I can testify to that myself. My life has never been the same after I gave my life to Jesus. There is a day and it's coming very quickly when God to set all these things straight and throw the devil and his minions into the lake of fire and bring in an era of peace. Until that day comes, we are called to bring this message of the Gospel to this lost and dying world to the best of our abilities so that other people can be forgiven and have peace with God. That's why we are still here. God doesn't want anyone to perish but want everyone to come to repentance and have a renewed relationship with Him.
+Maximus Trolleus The fact that you can differentiate between good and evil is an example that you are made in the image of God. You are different than animals. My cat does not ponder the ideas of eternity,supernatural, and existentialism. The reason why we can is because we are made in God's image.
Thomas Bridgewater Thomas, those are bred into them by instinct. It might appear that they are making certain choices,but they are not doing so because of an intricate mind. It's all instinct.
The greatest description of atheism is found here: "Only FOOLS say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!" Proverbs 14:1 - Case closed. Deep down you know that God exists because your conscience tells you this fact. But you choose to shut down the voice of your conscience so that you can continue to leave in your sinful lifestyle without being accountable to anyone. Romans 1: 18-20 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who SUPPRESS THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS,19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE," So, whether you want to believe it on not, we are all answerable to God and one day we are going to give account of our lives. "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment," Hebrews 9:27 Humble yourself therefore. #REPENT and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The absolute best argument I’ve heard against the attempt to assume circular argument as a fallacy on the existence of God. The same can be said regarding our reasoning on our reasoning. Basically is there anything that I can know for certain? Of course there is. ❤️🙏🏽
The girl was likely an actor. Here I will do it the way it should have been done. I know my ability to reason is sound because I am able to form arguments that are not circular nor self contradictory, nor does it contain any other logical fallacies, such as but not limited to ad hominem fallacy, you moron. I don't use my ability to reason as an argument I use my ability to reason to form my argument, that is not circular. Circular reasoning is always wrong as an argument, all it amounts to is saying my argument is reasonable because I used my ability to reason to form the argument.
@@thesnare100 not sure if you think your comment refuted my point . In fact it supports my point ….” is there anything we can know for certain? Of course there is.”
@@adechalus No, there isn't, you can't prove the existence of anything other than your own thoughts/mind, but we can be reasonably confident. I can't prove we're not in the Matrix, but I'll believe not until I/if I find out otherwise
@@thesnare100 so then all reasoning becomes subjective. One can say “if you walk off the roof you will fall” Another can say “ if you walk off the roof you will float” How do we know what is real?
He suggests that researching facts to back up a suggestion, thought or belief is circular reasoning, when in fact it's not! It's backing up a claim with other information to solidify the claim that was made in the first place.
*WHY WORSHIP OF GOD HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT THE EVIDENCE* "An atheist is one who hopes the Lord will do nothing to disturb his disbelief." -Franklin P. Jones Jesus healed the sick, gave sight to the blind and raised a dead man to life. He did all this in front of the disbelieving Pharisees and still they rejected the evidence of his Messiahship. One wonders, if Jesus came back to the earth and did all these wonders all over again do we really think those atheists would acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah ? I think not. Its not evidence atheists seek, its *justification* to continue in a self serving life style. Thomas Huxley was known as Darwins bulldog - he promoted evolution with a great deal of zeal and fervor. Thomas Huxley's grandson , Julius Huxley said of evolution in a BBC television interview, "I suppose the reason why we leapt at the Origin of Species was because of the idea of God interfering with our sexual morays." Sir Julian Huxley, Head of UNESCO and founder of the now discredited Eugenics Society Now - do you see anything about Huxleys demand for evidence in this statement? No ! Its *justification* for sexual morays that Huxley cites. *You see, its NOT about the evidence and never has been, This is why the girl in the video rejected the idea of worship even if every atheists question were answered to to their satisfaction.* Most atheists do not hide the fact that they are openly hostile and even hateful to both God and Christians. Their open hostility to God is a result of ignoring and fighting the conviction that the Holy Spirit has placed on their hearts. This is the reason they feel discomfort and even anger when they talk about this subject. It is also the same reason why so many atheists flock to Christian videos on RU-vid and Christian web sites , like moths to a lamp - because the only way they are able to stop the conviction the Holy Spirit has placed on their hearts is to war with the Holy Spirit - continually. They fight God with every breath in their bodies in a desperate hope that the conviction of guilt that they feel in their souls will be abated by a victory in an argument with a Christian .
@Jubei Yang Nice try but no dice. Matthew 10:23 is not to be understood of his second coming to judgment, but either of his resurrection from the dead, when he was declared to be the Son of God, and when his glorification began; or of the pouring forth of the Spirit at the day of Pentecost, when his kingdom began more visibly to take place.
Brilliant! he can find someone who is not able to argue well or someone who is simply acting. did you really think there was something Brilliant in this video? Here this is how an intelligent person responds to such silliness I know my ability to reason is sound because I am able to form arguments that are not circular nor self contradictory, nor does it contain any other logical fallacies, such as but not limited to ad hominem fallacy, you moron. I don't use my ability to reason as an argument I use my ability to reason to form my argument, that is not circular. Circular reasoning is always wrong as an argument, all it amounts to is saying my argument is reasonable because I used my ability to reason to form the argument.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a 👉rewarder👈 of them that diligently seek him.
He actually used other logical fallacies to when asking her questions about validating reason. He used some Strawman and black and white logic in his argument, which is distracting both of them from their original arguments at the beginning of the video.
Yh, when he said: "so you use your reasoning skills to validate your reasoning?" It was a straw man and deceptive. Reasoning skills meant logic/common sense, while reasoning just meant the rationale and well, reasons for believing something
The girl was likely an actor. Here I will do it the way it should have been done. I know my ability to reason is sound because I am able to form arguments that are not circular nor self contradictory, nor does it contain any other logical fallacies, such as but not limited to ad hominem fallacy, you moron. I don't use my ability to reason as an argument I use my ability to reason to form my argument, that is not circular. Circular reasoning is always wrong as an argument, all it amounts to is saying my argument is reasonable because I used my ability to reason to form the argument.
This is a texbook case of the tu quoque fallacy. At no point did the speaker even attempt to explain why some types of circular reasoning are not fallacious. "Tu quoque is a form of ad hominem fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that an argument is wrong if the source making the claim has itself spoken or acted in a way inconsistent with it. The fallacy focuses on the perceived hypocrisy of the opponent rather than the merits of their argument." rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Interesting point of view. Let's read this verse for instance and see if these things are not happening around us today: 2 Timothy 3: 1-5 "But know this, that in the LAST DAYS perilous times will come: For men will be LOVERS OF THEMSELVES, LOVERS OF MONEY, BOOSTERS, PROUD, BLASPHEMES, DISOBEDIENT TO PARENTS, UNTHINKABLE, UNHOLY, UNLOVING, UNFORGIVING, SLANDEROUS, WITHOUT SELF-CONTROL, BRUTAL, DESPISERS OF GOOD, TRAITORS, HEADSTRONG, HAUGHTY, LOVERS OF PLEASURE RATHER THAN LOVERS OF GOD, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING ITS POWER." I mean, look at what happening around us today. These verses sound like the late night news on CNN and this was written by prophets of old thousands of years ago and this is just one of the many prophecies that have been fulfilled and many of them are being fulfilled right before our eyes.
I do feel bad for her. It is hard to have a discussion with this guy when you are expected to answer almost immediately to such a difficult question. So let me answer him for her, since she made some mistakes: Firstly there is a difference between reasoning skills being valid and logic being valid. Your reasoning skills are indeed personal and you learn them through growing up. Logic on the other hand is true no matter what because it is a theoretical construct and it has absolute truth to it. It is not in itself a 'practical concept', but it can be applied to practical situations. This means if someone applies, within their own reasoning skills, logical concepts in a correct way, then they can deduce absolute truths. Now on to circular logic. Suppose we state some claim/expression and call it A. Now circular logic is saying: A proofs A. However this claim is always true, no matter what we take for the value of A. Therefore circular reasoning does not proof anything. And is thus always wrong.
Johan Vandelanotte You have to have an steady and unchanging truth in order to deduct whether your reasoning is using logical concepts in a “correct” way. Which would lead almost anyone to believe in false absolute truths. Therefore it would require an absolute truth to begin with and we could all use our own reasoning to apply logical concepts to see how exactly the truth came to be. It’s like taking a test with the answer sheet and all we have to do is show our work.
@Craig Kelly Your comment is a paradox. Nobody can validate that a "all knowing authority" exists or is capable of absolute truth. According to you only a "all knowing authority" would be able to prove that. So only 'god' can prove 'god' exists. So since that hasn't happend, I guess we can't be certain that anything to do with god is the truth.
The real fallacy is the loaded question the gentleman uses. He asks her a question to back her into the only response she can give, and then uses it against her. Using reasoning to validate reasoning is not circular logic - it's more akin to using the word to define the word. Circular logic needs a premise and a conclusion: [ex, Premise - God said to worship him. Conclusion - We need to worship God.] "We use reasoning skills to use reasoning skills" is not circular - it's not the most sophisticated thought; but he was the one who brought it up, not her.
'Human knowledge bust be understood to be believed, but Divine knowledge must be believed to be understood' Blaise Pascal (I think). 'The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him; and He will show them his covenant.' Psalm 25:14.
The girl doesn't use her own "reason or logic", basic logic like inductive*, deductive and logical fallacies are things that we are as humans agree are absolutely true, so questioning logic is contradiction, because you can't question or debunk logic using logic. *Inductive isn't the same as deductive and you can question it (for more read about the problem of Inductive)
Just enjoying all these pro-Christian comments :) On a related note. Mark Spence manages to remain so cool. I get so excited when I debate faith. No offence to Ray Comfort, but I like Spence's approach to debating more. Just recently I watched a video on Comfort reacting to Dawkins. It had a nice message, but it didn't really comment on Dawkins's assertions. It was almost like the Ham-Nye debate.
+Waller Domingo I'm pretty sure Ray does this because he knows that people wont be reached through the wisdom of man. I used to get caught up in addressing their assertions/philosophical arguments, but its actually pointless for the most part unless you happen to enjoy philosophy.
I don’t think we should be saying that Mark “owned” her, Christians. Let’s be different from the world. She’s lost and we should acknowledge that he’s right and she’s wrong but where’s the love if our only aim is to win the argument?
Thank-you Mark for recognizing the brilliant apologetic that Sye tenBruggencate has helped bring from the ivory towers of his teachers to the rest of us. What a legacy we have the honor to continue. It always amazes me to see how this form of Christian presuppositional apologetic causes the anti-theists mind to stutter and stall into an intellectual stagnation. We can only pray that in their quiet hours of solitude, they'll have to reflect on the indefensibly of their foolish premises and conclusions and go humbly to God's throne through Christ.
Sye ten and Mark Spence are the two stupidest apologists on the planet. You have to be brain dead to considet their arguments valid. Being dumber than Sye Ten is like being fatter than Rosie O'Donnell. Truly embarrassing.
He was right on every point, except that it's not true that we know God is worhippable only "because he says so." We know that he's worshippable because we know his characteristics, and having God's specific characteristics is something that only a worshippable being could possibly do. So no, worshipping God is not circular -- it's linear.
loll she never "used reasoning skill to validate reasoning skill", she just talked about how people normally use reasoning skills to back up a conclusion. He basically twisted her idea into one that's easier to attack. Nice shot.
I think it's funny that she brought faith into the argument to try to redirect the conversation away from her being proven wrong. She did so without even knowing what faith means, and it means trust, and trust IS validated by outside forces. I trust God because he has provided for me supernaturally. The supernatural provision is a reason to trust God, or have faith in him.
+Brian Stevens I find it interesting why he never asked her why she thinks God doesn't deserve worship. "God should be held to the same standards as people" (paraphrased) Why? Any reason for this assertion? When it comes to evidence, you should read The Case for Christ, and you should Google it. More than enough evidence to validate the Bible out there. Look up the Smithsonian on the historical accuracy of it. Read the gospels and see what it says about the witnesses of what Christ did. Three statements can be made about Jesus: 1) Jesus was capable of supernatural powers. (miracles) 2) His followers truly believed he rose from the dead. 3) His ENEMIES truly believed he rose from the dead. I dare you to come up with a reasonable theory besides what the Bible states that can explain these phenomenons within the historical context of the Gospels.
“Fear Him who can destroy soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28. “Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.” Psalm 2:12
she was on the right path. didn't quite get him on the wider issues of circular reasoning and how using your senses to gain reason is a system that allows evolution of information rather then restating the same assertion when the reasoning has failed.
People always leave out prophecy as a way to prove God is real. .1/4 of His word is prophetic, has a 100% correct track record and is still being fulfilled this very day! It takes a Creator living outside of our time/space continum to be able to do that. . to me it takes almost no faith today to belive if you study and learn prophecies and their fulfilment in the past and to see what is happening present day! it's exciting to see and know what's coming down the pike and to know how this game ends..
Well One major reason hat circular reasoning isn't incorrect in this case would be chronological logic. If it is assumed that a god created everything, the obvious place to look for a flaw would be the existence of a god. But more often than no the intrinsic laws of this world are not considered. So if one does not take into account that the reasoning that states something cannot come from nothing is based of the laws of this world (e.g the laws of thermodynamics, basic observations of chronological order). So with all the evidence on the table, the question "what Made God?" is rather ridiculous. In this context the statement could be simplified as "God cannot exist because the world that he made requires that all things have a source".
+Andrew Hall (Hij) But you also have to look in this. God is not within time, but everything we see or are in is within time. He created time and that within time has a source.
The problem of "does God deserve to be worshiped" is in the paradigm. It's like asking "does the universe deserve to exist?" It's not something we're in any position to change, for once we're in His presence we kneel and our tongues confess that He is Lord. We can ask, however, "is it beneficial for humans to worship God?" Since the Bible points out that He's the source of all good and perfect things and rewards those who seek Him, the answer must be a resounding "yes!"
***** God is neither psychopathic nor sadistic, fool. Read what Jesus teaches if you think that. He is, however, omniscient and the source of all good things. Also, regurgitating Dawkins just shows how ignorant of the Bible you are.
***** In context you will love your family more than you could have if you love Jesus more than anything else. _And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered,_ *“The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”* *“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another.* *For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.* So here's a king, who lays down His life for us, so that we can live with Him eternally...and He gets called vulgar names by the likes of you. Repent.
***** "Doesn't excuse?!" By what standard do you appeal to judge the Creator of the Universe, profligate? Sometimes things are difficult, yes. That's the nature of reality. God offers hope, what do you got? He's already proven that He can raise the dead and that He loves us. If you don't stop trying to justify your own idolatry you're going to be separated from God who is the source of all good things for eternity and be cast into Hell (which you deserve for what you're calling God at the very _least!_) where you suffer forever. Personally I hope you repent instead, but I'm not holding my breath.
***** It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of God. He exists eternally. Yes, His standards are impossible for you to live up to, that's why He died on the cross so that you might live under grace eternally. As for fairness, no, it's not fair that you get to hear this good news and many people have not. How much worse do you think it will be for you if you reject it? If you know that they will perish without hearing the truth and you don't tell them? ..but God is omniscient and some of them have even heard Him speak to them in dreams and repented, only to be martyred. They will judge the sinful alongside Christ on the holy day. Repent before you are brought before Him to plead your case, or you will find yourself in endless burning.
Skeeter Mania It's not an appeal to ignorance because it's not an argument, look at the context. Nor is it logical to say "don't expect anyone to take you seriously if..." I'm not interested in talking to anyone who is only interested in their own opinion since my job is to warn people that they will perish if they don't believe that Jesus has pa/id for their sins on the cross.
His argument was just stupid. It's based on unsupported assertions based on an old book. How was he actually reasonable. Just because the girl wasn't able to pin point this guy's fallacies doesn't mean anything. The guy is good at word salad, but his logic was subpar.
I don't think I agree with the way he argues, and so I don't blame the girl for remaining skeptical. Worshiping God because he is God makes sense to us who know him.
If anyone can believe that houses are built by bombing the trees or matters thereof, therefore, believing that men are created by chance, then he has the greatest of faith! In his religion of atheism.
The atheist young lady is correct; circular reasoning doesn't prove anything. Mark Spence should reevaluate his approach perhaps learning a few things from Ravi Zecharias. Mark Spence should have said that God is worth worshiping because He created everything and holds everything together. He is Holy and is worthy of worship, more than anything in this universe. While law and obedience are the modus operandi in some faiths, in following Christ, the mo is love and obedience.
Good old "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..." Romans 1.22 They learn a couple of philosophical principles at UNI and immediately *ego trip* wanting to take God on.
Tired old blather. We don't use our individual reasoning skills to validate our individual reasoning skills. Our reasoning skills are validated by the repeated accuracy of our conclusions. Conclusions that can be tested and verified by a process that is independent and external to the individual more strongly reinforce the reasoning that lead to the conclusions. Furthermore, reasoning can utilize a variety of sources of facts and premises and then use different means to validate the conclusion. For example, if we see smoke coming from a car, we could reason and conclude that the car has a camp fire burning in the back seat. But, we could use our accumulated knowledge of the world to add information to the reasoning and factor in that a camp fire in a car is an extremely rare source of smoke coming from a car. We might use our ears to add a fact like the sound of a high revving engine. Use our eyes again to add a fact like the smoke coming from under the car and that it's more white than brown, yellow, or black. Use our ears again to note a squealing sound. Use our eyes again to note that the tires aren't spinning. Use our nose to note that the smoke does not smell like burning wood, oil, antifreeze, or tires spinning on pavement. Now we might take all that and conclude that the smoke is coming from a clutch. We could test our conclusion by asking other people if they are experiencing the same thing and if they've reached the same conclusion. We could ask the car operator what is happening. Then we could check for damage to the clutch. Let's say that you see, hear, and smell all of this but you read in a book that smoke comes only from camp fires. Your "faith" is akin to accepting the conclusion that there is a camp fire in the back seat of that car because your book said so, and it must be so because the book says that the book is true.
She made a very interesting statement; (several actually).. about a third of the way into it she said this: "faith does not require proof, but that does not mean that faith is correct". Which is by itself a ABSOLUTE statement, to which I agree. And more importantly, that very statement has very damning (pardon the phrase), implications on atheists. However, Christianity, (and the logic therein), really doesn't fall into circular reasoning as the speaker sort of acquiesced to; so it seemed. I was a little surprised by that.
You gain reasoning skills trough learning, learning starts when your born, from 0 to 2 years you learn and develop using sensory skills smell, taste, touch etc. From 2 to 7 you learn by imitating others, 7 to 11 you start to use logic and from 11 onwards you can think in an abstract way. Circular reasoning are rules in communication to ensure that if you claim something to be true others have the option to refute what you are saying, preferably trough evidence. If by circular reasoning the thing someone says is always true then why not state that you are a King or that you simply didn't commit a crime when facing a judge in court. Questioning certain things is a privilege, now let me warn you that if you question things established by your 'growing up' phases you can develop serious psychological problems. For instance the bonds between your sensory skills can be broken en you start hallucinating. If you see or hear god or anything else witch isn't there for other people make sure that you visit a psychologist immediately! To be able to stay conscious and in 'the here and now' you must be able to verify certain things. The best way to do this is by using evidence. Things that you can reproduce and test yourself. Scientific magazines are a way to lay a basis, from there you will be able to scrutinize and or debunk articles or video's witch are not based on the truth because lack of evidence. Logic will not cut it in complex situations and this wouldn't' be a problem if it didn't make you question more and more. Don't forget its a real world and your part of it.
+Andros Carlin.......Yep nice, shes got the smarts and how.......next up for her. The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Hope she's able to accept Jesus Christ by faith and not by sight, cause brains alone can't get you through heavens door.......I've seen this combination before if she does though. What a fireball then, look out. :^)
FACTvsEVOLUTION yeah dude, she's all aces :) the guy's point about reasoning about reasoning is complete nonsense. Yeah she's young and naive, but she's on the right path. Never bow your knew to a dictator, even if he calls himself god.
RUHDD4HVN how do you know heaven is not a fallacy? Why would you ever surrender reason? How is that ever a good thing? Never trust a person who asks of you to surrender reason, would you not day that's good advice?
I believe that maybe she is right Mark. Even if you prove that God exists that doesn't mean He is worthy of our worship unless we are designed for that purpose and that is not true worship. Jesus on the other hand proves that He is worthy of our worship because He loves us! Love is the answer for our worship of our Creator. If our Creator didn't love us I would have to agree with this women that the Creator is not worthy of worship and I will explain why! I did not ask to be born and I know with certainty that I will suffer and die. God has thrown me into a lions den and I had no choice in the matter. Unless God proves to me an answer why I was thrown into this lions den and unless our Creator can prove He loves us. I have to agree, our creator might not deserve worship. Just some deep thinking!
+You Tube is circular reasoning always fallacious? and tell me when did he use circular reasoning! Another thing is: how do you account for logic in your atheistic worldview? how did it evolve, are we in the stage that we have half logic now? how do you account for immaterial concepts in your worldview?
+You Tube wonderful, tell me how do you know that your reasoning is valid but do not use your reasoning because it would be fallacious! Um we study logic and then we implement it, i was wondering if in that "study" of logic you use logic, can you answer that? Please no circular reasoning! You know what an immaterial concept is if you don't there's no need to discuss it with you! God of the gaps? Can you explain what is a god of the gaps? The God that i worship is the God of the bits that i do know and those that i do not know!
+You Tube if you can't validate your own reasoning, how do you know that others can't? Don't you find that self refuting? Yes i can validate my own reasoning! You said circular reasoning is invalid but if you validate your reasoning by using your reasoning let alone the fact that you can't validate it, aren't you using circuylar reasoning? Isn't that circular to use logic to study logic? Do you know what an axiom, assumption is? A position taken wihtout evidence and from what i can tell you are taking on blind faith that logic is valid, that your reasoning is valid....! We use our brains to study math and oh laws of logic although math and logic are the same sides of a coin! Well if you don't know what an immaterial entty there's np need to discuss with you, it would be meangless although you call my questions juvenile, and if they were juvenile you should be able to destroy them But i didn't do that, did I? The God that i believe in validates the things that i understand and those that i don't! he doesn't disapear when i discover an explanation for something! gravity wouldn't disapear if i knew what it was,, by the way nobody know what gravity is!
+You Tube you can't be sure about anyhting! can you? axioms and assumptions cannot be tested if they can, what you used to test your axiom or assumption becomes your new assumption or axiom, i wonder why you people don't understand that! any philosopher knows that ultimate authority is by default circular, the laws of logic are taken as assumptions the difference is that atheists can't account for them, they take them in blind faith! Yah nobody know what gravity is, do you know what gravity is? Yes, By and through revelation from the christian God, the Christian God demands me to call people and reason with them which presupposes that my reasoning is valid and for the same reason that i am here reasoning with somebody that can't validate his reasoning, for you to reason, you have to presupose my worldview! My reason to believe in him, is his revelation and the fact that i can reason with you and you are able to ask those questions! The way to science its a process that requires the presupposition of the Christian God in a random caos world science is impossible, so when you metion scince you have left your worldview! Yes by the fact that you are arguing with me! look if you think that i am copying what i am writting here lets end this conversation right here and yah i want to propose you something, what do you think of a debate, me and you a hangout so that you can expose me so i won't get to copy and past on youtube comments; do you accept that? a live debate between us...it should be easy for you to win sinbce i am copying and pasting! We are gonna debate about epistimology...do you accep a live debate? I want you to chew slowly in a live debate and destroy me...do you accept!
+You Tube wonderful, what is your time zone? but let me get this straight i said we should debate about epistemology because debate assume knowledge so before we even discuss about the existence of my God with someone who cannot prove the validate of his senses you have to admit that you lost on that one and that you would be using my worldview to argue against me if you don't agree with that, let's debate epistemology! regardless i am still up to debate you, no foul language just you and me we gonna debate like grownups you accept those conditions? waiting for you answer...and i am gonna be straight here i am not uncomfortable with debating epistemology if i were i wouldn't propose it! you are because is gonna crush your confidence to the ground! Waiting...
Actually I found her to have some valid points! His answers were weak and then insufficient to satisfy her. I have been looking at a number of similar themes, where so called street preachers have booth an arrogant and superior manner of answering their critics. Worse than that it has only served to validate my conviction that these people have such shallow scripture bashing mentalities no wonder the people turn away! Hope their are at least a few intelligent christian s in your country!
Yes it does. Just because the god is more powerful than you doesn't mean he has to be worshiped. He's also bound by morality, therefore he has to be judged (if he exist) by the same standard as has no matter how powerful he is. I mean, if he as all the power to cure cancer but leaves an innocent baby to suffer from it, then he's still a monster. If he can't cure it, then he's not that powerful so why call him god?
Jebuscristo Her exact claim was, "You MUST hold God to the same standard of everyone else." This is not logical because God is not the same as us. God is not a human. Yes, there are similarities because we are a reflection of Him (as you pointed out, being moral). But he is still not the exact same. And if He was, He wouldn't be a God. Theologically speaking in general. Regardless of your worldview, what she said wasn't logical. Also, wait. You can't just assume, for example, that a vet who puts a dog to sleep was doing it for evil reasons. You can't just assume that pressure can't create something beautiful like a diamond. You can't assume that we can know comfort without discomfort. Good can't exist without evil and evil can't exist without good.
I don't really care about theology, I care about reality. If a god existed, he's bound by morality in the sense that he can't just declare immoral act to become moral by fiat. He can't just declare for example rape to be right just because he's a god. Rape is bad not because he says so, but because it hurt the victim physically, mentally and emotionally. So he has to be held on the same standard as us because he's bound by our morality. If he can do whatever he wants then he'd be just tyrant like any other powerful tyrants like Kim Jong Un, Hitler, Stalin etc... A vet who put a dog to sleep has a good intentions, but a vet who torture a dogs for years before putting a dog to sleep can't have good intentions. If you believe your god does things for a reason, what's the reason behind giving innocent babies cancer, torture them for months to years before killing them. Why can't he just help many starving innocent children, or children who get molested by horrible people. If I had the power that your god supposedly have, I would definitely intervene unlike your god who watches and do nothing. Yes there has to be good and bad, but unnecessary bad, like unnecessary virus, cancer and just torture innocent people is just stupid.
I don't care about theology because it's based on a book! A book written by ignorant humans who didn't even know that the earth orbited the sun, or the fact that germs exist. I care about modern knowledge, we're passed the old ideas that the bible is based on i.e demons, magical thinking, miracles etc... This is 2016, almost 2017. We know more about reality than people who wrote the Bible or any other holy books. I don't understand why humans try to find wisdom and happiness from an ancient book. We know better!!! I used to be a christian, in fact I was thinking about becoming a priest right after high school, and that's how I became an atheist.
Jebuscristo Then why are you discussing this if you don't care about it? When you question God's morality/state of Being, you are making a theological argument.
+David Jones No, it's not. The biblical word for faith is "pistis" which is defined as "active trust". Trust must be earned and you can't exercise the kind of faith the Bible has in mind unless you're reasonably sure some things are true.
+Living Waters Thanks for your reply, I appreciate that. I think for such a huge part, if not all of a believers life, then to me, an athiest and sceptic, then I would need absolute proof. I.e faith is not enough.
Only 3? Why only three? And is this going to only me presenting evidence or will you stump up evidence as well? Let's start with the manuscript evidence for the Bible. No document has more manuscript evidence. Not even close. We're talking thousands compared to less than ten. e.g. the evidence for Julius Caesar is based on one reference hundreds of years after his claimed existence. There are thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament, the earliest of which date to within a hundred years of Jesus' claimed existence. Archaeologically, nothing in the Bible has been definitively disproven. In fact, archaeologists affirm the Bible as the highest level of scholarship and trustworthiness. e.g. just over a hundred years ago, there had been no evidence of the Hittites outside the Bible so the Bible was assumed to be mistaken, until independent evidence was found. And lastly the evidence of creation. Science tells us that energy is not eternal, so the universe must have had a beginning. And that beginning requires an external source. Something outside nature. Something (or someone) very intelligent and powerful. The God of the Bible is (at least) one of the possibilities for that. In fact, the more you investigate it, the better He fits the bill. And I only stop because you said 3.
Why? "I like to stay educated on refuting this topic" In other words, "I've made up my mind and no facts will change my mind. I just want to figure out how to make up excuses for ignoring them." Jesus warned me about fools like you. He told me not to cast my pearls before swine (that's pigs) or give what is holy to dogs. In fact, he said that you love your sin and depravity and want to stay in darkness and run away from the light. I'm not going to wast my time. Unless you change your mind about whether you could be wrong or not. You ask for evidence but aren't actually interested in looking at the evidence. Only refuting the evidence. No wonder God calls you a fool.
if God was real....and i believe he is...that makes him worthy of worship by default....HE is everything....and the creator of everything....He is God.....Thats enough.....i dont even need to go any further than that
Dopest Flyest O.G. Pimp Hustla Gangsta Playa no....If God was real...then it would mean all that human centric new age scientology bullnonsence was what i just called it a giant load of bull feaces and so ...so no....i dont have a simple mind...i have a clear mind...oh and ps God IS REAL
She's seems very smug. Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
Я бы ответил проще. Богу нужно поклонятся, потому что человек неизбежно чему-то поклоняется, человек создан поклонником. Если человек не верит в Бога, то он верит в что-то другое, что не принесет ему добра и если человек не поклоняется Богу, то он поклоняется чему-то другому, что не принесет ему добра.
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good -Psalm 14:1 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned -1 Corinthians 2:14 Pray for that young lady’s salvation she’s searching for answers
Wow, this is new! I have heard many different types of pseudo-logic from evengelists, but this one is by far the most dishonest one I have ever heard. It's clever. I can give him that. But it's wrong, of course. His reasoning on his god is circular (he admited it), but her reasoning on reasoning is not at all circular. He made it look like circular by asking her to reason on reasoning. He must have thought about this defense numerous times before. She answered his question right away by analyzing the nature of reasoing on the fly. In certain fields of science, the reasoning on reasoning is called meta-cognition, and we know this exists. She just didn't have the background knowledge to asnwer his question scientifically enough to avoid his rhetorical trap. Toying with a young mind dishonestly, you call yourself a christian? Shame on you!!! And the video title as if he was right? Shame on the production, too!!!
You know, I think there's a lot of truth to what you said! I , as a Christian, would not take the approach this man took in the video. But just for fun, if you don't mind me asking, im gonna ask you something similar that this guy did but a little different. Here goes: if Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?
@@Justin374 It depends what it means to be a chrisian. If it means that accepting the existence of the god of the bible, the existence of Jesus and his resurrection, etc, I would. If it means that worshipping and obeying the god of the bible, I would not. No offense to you, but I consider the salvation schemes of christianity to be rather unimpressive and unintelligible (particularly considering the fact that it was supposedly designed by an omniscient and omnipotent being). I'm afraid I would have to agree with the young woman in the video that the god of the bible doesn't seem worth worshipping.
@@tosuchino6465 well, to be a christain would mean youre a christ follower which would also mean you worship God, technically speaking. So in reality, if Christianity were true, you still wouldn't identify as one--just based on what you told me. Is that true? Seriously let me know youre a delight to talk to.
I wonder what 'key' (i.e. soprano, alto, base) she sings in...... She'' definitely will be showing off her talents at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT I hope she opens her eyes to the LORD & Accept JESUS CHRIST Today1!
All Religion's, all Mythology's,all the God's are Metaphors for the Human and Cosmic Mystery of Life, Have you died to your animal nature? and become a human incarnation?
I know I'm behind in this conversation, but I've seen so many people say she's caught in circular reasoning. She isn't. Saying that "using reasoning skills to validate reasoning skills" is the equivalent to saying "using a hammer to hammer something." She was asked to describe her reasoning skills and, go figure, it takes reasoning to articulate that answer in a way that makes sense, much like it takes reasoning to approach any social interaction. Therefore, he set her up to make a point that isn't actually a point. Spence has manufactured a situation that isn't actually faulty logic but has presented it in a way that appears to be faulty. And by the way, I'm a Christian. I just don't like how manipulative people like Spence are, especially considering how many people (as demonstrated in this chat) don't see it.
Anders, it's a pity you don't see tour own faulty logic then. You've set up a strawman, and it appears you are ignorant of what Christianity actually teaches. I know of NO Christian who teaches gays should be stoned. Any who do aren't following Christianity. That command was given in the Mosaic Law to the nation of Israel! (and apologies for starting a new thread. i could not find the option to reply)
