Hey man, I'm Bob the owner of Gilded Raven Games (Howdy neighbor!). Actually found your channel via reddit lol, also I'm like typing along with what you're saying so sorry if this is ranty, unfocused, and unhinged. Yeah, I mean I think you hit the nail on the head. Right, when I pre-ordered, PHD is my main distro, I ordered a lot from them with only the knowledge: Commander Masters, Jeweled Lotus, $400 a set box, $250 a collector box. So naturally, just like you I ordered a fuck-load. I'm in the same spot as you were with CLBG. Raven's been open 9 months. And I went all in on the set and it imploded too. I literally showed customers that we were paying 179 a box and the ones on TCGPlayer are at a loss. If you're calculating 2.6 transaction fee, 15% tcgplayer vig, depending on the volume, we're losing a shit load of money. We did the EV on set boosters, it's $6.07 of EV as of like midnight yesterday (8/7/23) at a cost of $13 a pack iirc. So yeah. We opened a dozen of the CMM Collector boxes. The EV we cracked out of it was abysmal. Like ~$700 tops. Some of the singles are rebounding like you said, like Fierce Guardianship BL Foil. But frankly, this is the most toxic asset. We're super lucky, we're a huge FAB store. We're big w/ SW Legion, Warhammer, and Boardgames. That Divesting of products is keeping us alive, but frankly this set me back a couple months of growth probably. I can't really describe how frustrated I am with WOTC with this set. Pokemon for you is like FAB for us. I sold 100 boxes of Dusk Till Dawn in 7 minutes at our midnight launch. I've moved a lot of CMM though through nothing but the goodwill of my community. One of our FAB community member bought 11 collector boxes to help. ELEVEN. He's also been running around baseballing collector packs with people. He really doesn't have the money for it, he just really believes in "Support your local game store," and by god he's gonna fucking try. But yeah, for release we did $50 a draft. We fired 4 pods of 4, but I still fired a 16 player MOM draft that night too because most of my customers were like "Fuck the price of this set." I think the only way to weasel our ways out is to be completely transparent with our communities and be like "Uhh, please help." To be honest, I think this set would be a good set if it was half the price. It'd have everything new commander players would need, it'd drop single prices so long form commander players can stock up on smothering tithes, d-tutors, fierce guardianships, etc. But that's not what WOTC decided to do. They can lie all they want about not recognizing the secondary market but it's very obvious. I dunno man. This was a shit set. Hit me up some time, sorry for the diatribe.
Burn your draft off doing events, crack all your collector's for singles, and use set to sell in store or as rewards for events. Use prior set collector's as prizes if necessary. Sell set packs at buy 2 or 3, get 1 or some incentive bulk package. Good Luck.
Not many can afford a 60$ draft, everyone is selling to the bottom... they need to just stop ordering master sets or just a couple if you have a whale or two.
Issue is no one wants to draft this either $60 for a draft is an insane price. My store tried to do it and 2 people showed up, all of the other drafters said it was too expensive. You’re taking a giant hit cracking collectors. You’re not going to get anywhere close to your money. All of your ideas suck
The price for a re-print set is just mindless from WotC - this will happen yet again with the next 2 re-mastered sets - I recommend that you not pick up much. At least Baldurs Gate was net new cards, yet it was the commander set that had shown the decline in MtG against Amazon dumps. WotC needs to do a number of things to save MtG (and LGS’s) - 1) Reduce the frequency of releases 2) Drop Amazon as an all-in-one distributor/seller. 3) Bring back the MSRP. 4) Seriously fix Standard as a format and bring it back to with a PT. 5) All LGS’s to sell Secret Lairs. I am pretty sure that most of the problems/issues has to do with direct interference of Hasbro, it’s just sad. One thing that is apparent, it that WotC is pricing sets according to the secondary market making the TCG less CG and more money grab.
Sorry for what you are going through, amd very glad you made a video. The community needs more videos like this, of small businesses retailers telling their stories.
Your honesty about the ups and downs about owning a shop is what everyone needs to hear. The outpouring of support on this video is really touching. ❤❤
Holy moly man! I'm gonna be honest I feel terrible right now. I was just celebrating how hard Commander Masters is flopping but I didn't even realize how big of a toll it's taking on LGSs. This burden should be on Wizards and Hasbro not store owners. this is wild! liked, subbed and shared the video with my friend group. Hopefully this video reaches enough people to draw more attention to the issue.
As long as Cynthia Williams continues to circumvent the old Distro to LGS chain, and sell directly to Amazon, the answer is for LGS's to go straight to Amazon. The pre-order model is dead. Also, cutting your orders in half or thirds would be a safeguard against this. The only things you can bet on with WoTC, is that 1. prices will continue to go up. 2. Amazon will always be cheaper than product from Distro. 3. WoTC get's their money either way, so things won't change.
The solution is to do like Lorcana is doing: Send the sets to LGS for 2 weeks prior to online so that stores can make money then sell the rest on amazon above msrp. Everybody wins in that scenario as the problem is the distributors
Brother, always always appreciate your videos and honesty! I still tell people how cool you are for answering my LGS questions in a stream for 3 hours on a random Tuesday. I know you’ll make it back👊
Glad you made this video. I hope it gets a lot more traction. This set will be more destructive to LGS’s then Baldurs gate with where the economy is today compared to then
My heart goes out to you man. I hope you make a full recovery!! I have lost all trust in WOTC. Commander Masters was the first set in a long time which I bought zero product and instead invested those funds into Sorcery Alpha (amazing product). The price on Commanders Masters is completely out of touch. If they think their entire player base are rich (and also stupid) whales, they are in for a rude awakening and reckoning. You've earned my sub and again I hope you recover - thanks for sharing with the community even though I'm sure this is very painful to talk and go through.
I had a feeling stores were gonna get burned by this, I hope you make a significant recovery. A store near me stopped doing magic events entirely and now only hold a few boxes at most because they couldn't move as much product. I used to buy a box and split with a friend for every set. I think the last time we did that was kamigawa :\
I really enjoy watching your videos bro 😎 I know things suck sometimes but it’ll get better someday if you keep trucking along. I am curious though, are you attempting to stock and push flesh and blood at your store? I know it’s super small in comparison to mtg but 1 night a week of flesh and blood play would be dope and the company seems to really appreciate LGS stores
You're one of the best on the platform doing content around this Rob, and you were instrumental in helping me understand the market while launching my store. You'll weather the storm, but if there's anyway I can help you out, please reach out!
Just wanted to stop by to offer both my appreciation of your honesty and your service to the magic community and my condolences for having to be on the receiving end of a company that does little to support its grassroots, enfranchised base. Best of luck getting out of this.
I feel for you, bro. We've all been there where you feel you screwed up and put your business in jeopardy because of a product you thought was a "can't miss". As someone who has done this for nearly a decade, we all learn the painful lesson at some point that no matter how good you think a set will be, never go all in. The downside risk is too great when so much information is withheld from us when the orders go in. All the best, dude.
I did a bit of an EV analysis on my channel and based on Thursday prices at like 9pm Set boxes are about breakeven (even after excluding all cards under $2 and variants) while drafts are at a small loss. So Running Commander Draft events for $50 will move your draft product profitably (but slowly) and singles from Sets will likely be a minor profit. You can also use those as prize packs for events since the product is desirable just not at that price so obfuscating the cost a little bit might bring better results (consult your local event community first).
Crazy man, here is Australia its so different, I have three LGS's c;ose to me all three are sold out of CB's, in fact my favourite store had a midnight commander party launch and sold pout by 1am!
Rough! Can’t win them all but that is for sure a tough situation . Hopefully at the very least it’s a good lesson and now others might learn from it as well! Can be very tough to separate emotions (mostly fomo) from deploying lots of capital
That's brutal. Sorry to hear that. These card companies trying to extract max value from the secondary market is definitely a killer for lgs. Obviously they are in the business in selling product, but they are totally willing to crush you in the process is ruthless.
Hang in there man. Sorry to hear about the amount of capital you are on the hook for with this product.. .the macros and chatter around it was definitely super negative; the cards itself just can't justify the prices WOTC charged. You make amazing content with incredible perspectives on how to run a card business, this will be a blip in the radar long-term. I discovered your channel a few months ago and I'm a big fan. Will check out your patreon.
I feel for you! It's such a shame how poorly wotc / the distribution system preys on the lgs'. Many content creators, I included, have definitely taken big losses with this set. I appreciate your willingness to discuss and be transparent about the good and bad deals. I hope you make a good recovery selling singles and look forward to future content.
It's also crazy the LGS gets treated so badly considering it's not a one-way dependency, it's really a symbiotic relationship. You think Magic is selling $300M worth of product a quarter if the LGS dont exist?
So, I own my own LGS also, and I can't help but wonder how much responsibility for these jacked up prices we see actually lays with our distributors? Are our distributors buying a box for say $25 and then turning around and charging us in the $85+ range? Numbers are totally fabricated and just for example. I'm really, really curious how much our distros are screwing us vs Hasbro/WotC. Because, once Hasbro/WotC sells to our distros, that's it. They're done. End of story. They make their money right there and leave the distro's with piles of product if the distros don't sell through what they buy directly from Hasbro/WotC. I only bought about $4k worth of this set and barely made enough to pay off the terms from my own distro so I can only imagine where you're at with the whole $160k I think you said. Good luck man. Even taking a 8-10% loss on TCG player selling singles will take you a while to recoup from something that. I hope you do. Take care.
I doubt distros are jacking up prices that heavily, especially with what we see WotC dump on Amazon for. I'm guessing the distros are probably taking a beating as well and the only one making anything is WotC.
@@Techpriest well, with the dumps it's a direct from WotC to Amazon thanks to the personal relationship they have with each other considering what's her name was a big wig at Amazon and now she is one at Hasbro/WotC. So, I'm sure there's some amazing terms and conditions there. Haha. Distros definitely get hosed but I don't think they get hosed like us LGS's do. Especially with no MSRP to go by, you aren't guaranteed any kind of real ROI on 95% of WotC products now. Plus, distros will force LGS's to buy "toxic" assets to get better sets. For example Double Masters. I had to buy at least $800 worth of Baldurs Gate to get a reorder of Double Masters from one of my distros. So, I kinda thing it's a 60/40 split for the terrible prices LGS's are forced to pay.
I totally agree commander Masters for LGS and customers in general is terrible it's overpriced massive disappointment with the commander Masters commanders like I was going to spend 150 quid 160 quid in my local lgs on commanders when I looked at the decks I was like nope I mean even my LGS was going to run a draught but realise it have to charge the customers £80 to have a draught of commander Masters so they just adjusted Commander 2 headed giant against each other
Freakin brutal. Good luck to you with this set. How TF is it even possible for boxes to be sold for less than wholesale on day of release? That's nuts.
I feel like this is done through credit lines. If not, I would suggest you set it in the backroom for a couple years before it starts gaining value. I also wouldn't sell singles online right now.
Im so sad I didn't buy Commander masters /s.... sorry dude. Thanks for sharing this though. I think its super important for everyone to see this and resist the fomo even at the resell level.
As a business you can't afford to have fomo or really any emotions that lead to decisions that aren't data driven or have a strong framework behind them. No data means the risk is astronomically high so doubling or tripling down on something you have no data on is an extremely bad decision in any scenario, not just in business, same as just straight up gambling. Sure it could have paid off but the reality it has just as much likelyhood of paying off as crashing and burning.
You could tell by the price and the reprint equity that is in commander outside of the RL that they couldnt have propped this up. So much of the equity in commander is in things they havent reprinted and will drop like a rock.
I don't know a lot about running a store but when WotC started asking $180 wholesale for a box, which is like $80 more than the "typical" retail price for a box, were retailers outraged? Am I misunderstanding the dynamics of the situation? That seems outrageous.
@@rng-gamez It's anecdotal evidence, but I can tell you from the perspective of a player that I was very excited about this set, but it was simply too expensive to engage with at all. Commander draft/sealed sounded really fun but I can't spend $40+ on a draft. Magic has a lot of competition now too. FAB, One Piece, Shadowverse are all getting some portion of my attention/$$$. I appreciate good LGS so I hope you're able to figure this out and WotC starts treating stores like their business partners.
It is a shame that commander masters has turned into a complete fiasco, would be one of the best sets ever if they hadnt tried to charge such a terrible price for it.
I remember doing my best to help the local LGS and buying a Buldurs gate set booster box at prerelease and having a real gut wrenching feeling when the price + California tax was quoted at like $160+ all the while knowing I could have preordered a set box on EBay for $99 with free shipping. The MTG community as a whole should speak up on this issue and pressure WOTC to stop sticking it to the LGS’s one of the only places where people find the game, collect, build community and play. I remember when we all got smart and started proof reading books at the Borders and Barns and Nobles and buying them cheaper online. Then within a few years they almost all closed and now where can you go to chill and have a coffee and chat for hours with your friends?
I do wonder how LGS do it sometimes. I don't really play MTG anymore but I can recall at least 4-5 opening up in my area and closing after a year or so. This has been the trend for the last 10 years. It seems like you are really gambling with WotC and the house always wins. So even if they make stupid decisions, they don't go bankrupt...the LGS does. I mean there are a few obviously stable LGS in my city where my friends go to play but they are larger and obviously well established enough to survive the ups and downs. Still the LGS seem like they have brutal ups and downs which are dictated by WoTC in not only their sets but their public statements and actions. I can't imagine how difficult it is to weather the shitstorms they regularly whip up. Good luck and I subbed to see where the story goes.
Dude I played against the sliver deck and got beat twice. I was playing a Shalai and Hallar deck that I upgraded heavily. It made me want the slivers deck but the prices will drop and I have to wait
Saying he “has to open it” if the value is less than what he paid is wrong. The price is based on the demand for the cards in the box, which translates to EV
Other than the big card games. What makes a LCG owner like yourself take a chance on an indie card game? Maybe you find a hidden gem outside of the big ones that have been costing you money lately? No idea if that would work lol, just throwing out an idea as someone who loves to play the games.
Gonna say, must be brutal holding mtg cards in the modern day. Same as for pokemon as of late. Hopefully the new Eldraine set doesnt hurt your income my man!
Try making videos of sample collector pack openings, box openings etc, shows stats of pull rates to try to get a different revenue stream from the product.
I would say just hang on to them and the price should rebound except we know the Amazon dump on these is only about 3-4 months away... They've been better about overprinting but in this case there's no way they were expecting this much market rejection.
I'm sorry about this man, but I have hopes for the strong staples like Avacyn and the tutors to make their way back up there. The set is strong but the price of entry is just to high. I really don't understand wizards thought process. They really wanted to see how far they could push all of us. And that's a shame
seems like the difference is that consumers have more information and ability to sniff out if a set is too expensive or not very good quickly. sadly the lgs doesn’t get this luxury. even in one year since baldurs gate we have accelerated the speed at which we will reject.
If you could sit on it for 12 months the singles will do better. Are you in any of the mass box opener groups on Facebook? They share a well of knowledge of pull rates.
Good luck to you. Hope you figure out something to do with the product. Lgs's united should voice there displeasure to wotc. Wotc doesnt care about anyone, all they care about is the $ signs at the end of the day. An overpriced product, that got rejected by the customer base and the lgs's are left guessing on what to order for stock. It's a good product, just overpriced. Thanks.
The value is not good in this set, especially at that price. It's 80% bulk from precons. It has a few heavy hitters, all of which are being reprinted AGAIN in 3 months or were only expensive due to low supply. People are cracking $40 worth of value from collector boxes. Nobody in their right mind should be buying this product, especially when it's likely to go on fire sale later this year, like everything else Wizards has put out lately. If a distributor is charging you $300+ for a box and you know you need to mark it up to make a profit, you need to stay far, far away from it because you're not going to be able to move much of it. Problem is that Wizards is tanking the secondary market with all their reprints, so there's no guarantee that you recoup your costs, even if you wait until the market stabilizes. Everything is on the decline, and they keep throwing more supply out there.
Everything he’s saying is confirming exactly what AlphaInvestments said - set box won’t sell, precons will do really well, collector boxes will do very well, many shops will sell at a loss. Seems good to keep an eye on Alpha if you’re an American store owner.
Main problem with Commander master is LOTR. Wallet fatigue. People already wasted their money on another product. This will continue to happen as people only have so much money for luxury items.
I'm not sure what you mean by Magic being a long term value, as outside of a few outliers modern sets have failed to really appreciate in value. Pokemon has probably had a better run overall, but it's not amazing either and easier to sell as walk by grab items as opposed to online sealed sales.
