Testing the Speer Gold Dot 90 gr JHP VS the Underwood Xtreme Defender 68 gr fluted and the G9 70 gr fluted. Thanks to Observer Will for this ammunition. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
I been getting a lot of "why you don't ever test short barrels like an LCP" after testing with an LCP for years. But let me remind you all of something: That with .380 ACP, going from a 2.75" LCP to a 3.68" Shield EZ does not simply add more velocity the way it would if it were say a 9mm, or .38 Special. The .380 ACP is for lack of a better term 'too weak' to make it go faster in a longer barrel. Here is some examples from the past with the LCP VS the Shield EZ velocity averages I got: 1. Underwood Xtreme Defender (different test) Shield EZ=1,272 FPS/LCP=1,236 FPS. 2. Underwood Maximum Expansion Shield EZ=990 FPS/LCP=1,006 FPS. 3. Federal Hydrashok Shield EZ=942 FPS/LCP=1,009 FPS. 4. Remington Golden Saber Shield EZ=976 FPS/LCP=896 FPS. 5. Hornady Critical Defense Shield EZ=970 FPS/LCP=842 FPS. 6. Winchester USA (White Box) Shield EZ=863 FPS/LCP=881 FPS. 7. Cor-Bon DPX Shield EZ=1,171 FPS/LCP=1,162 FPS. 8. S&B Solid Copper Shield EZ=1,069 FPS/LCP=1,071 FPS. 9. Double-Tap Solid Copper Shield EZ=1,137 FPS/LCP=1,122 FPS. 10. Speer Gold Dot Shield EZ=1,067 FPS/LCP=915 FPS. Those were random selections I found while searching my videos with past results. Same ammo is faster in the Shield EZ only 50% of the time. Also about 50% of the reads between barrel lengths are averaging within 20 FPS of the other barrel length. The Golden Saber, Gold Dot and Hydrashok are the only standouts with huge velocity differences, but we all know how mainstream companies load ammo from lot to lot. Long story short, if I were to test whatever ammo in an LCP like I am constantly asked to now, it's terminal ballistics are probably going to be identical to whatever I get in the Shield EZ. But, to me the Shield EZ is simply easier to test with.
Thanks for the reply. You and Tools are my two favorite gun channels. You work so hard and we appreciate all you do and all the data you have compiled. Please keep it up for us.
Simply well done! Great data, easy to look up and your point about decent barrel lengths and how much it matters is spot on target. So many channels do these tests with tiny pocket pistols. I'm not interested in that data. I carry a 3 1/2-in barreled 380 ACP because I'm partially disabled. I can no longer shoot my 1911. So I chose this barrel length, a handgun that fits my hand, and the low recoil purposefully. It was really nice to see your data and how important all these variables come together. Thank you!
The “Ballistics by the Inch” website shows roughly an average increase in velocity of 100 FPS simply going from a 2.75-inch to a 3.35-inch for 6 difference types of 380 ammo. In an ‘underpowered’ round like 380, a 100 FPS difference could mean the difference between expansion and failure to expand, and from all the many gel tests I’ve seen, 380 expansion is a gamble out of a 2.75-inch barrel. As such, I only carry fluted copper solids or TUI copper solids in my 2.75-inch LCP. By contrast, in my 380 EZ I mostly carry Federal Hydra-Shok Deep, which, from all the many gel tests I’ve seen of this ammo, it not only reliably expands out of barrels exceeding 3-inches, but reliably penetrates 15 to 18 inches in gel and produces a damage track in gel that rivals most any 9mm hollow point.
The goldot only got 8 1/4 inches of penetration, and that was from the Smith and Wesson ez with the barrel an inch longer than most people carry in a 380 pocket pistol. The underwood which wasn’t the plus P would get good enough penetration, and still do damage. Most people won’t be firing 75 yards and the accuracy close-up is more than adequate which would appear to make the underwood a better choice.
I use underwood ammo for almost everything now. They make hollow points as well. I still like traditional ammo: HST, Gold Dots, Golden Saber, etc., but if you don’t have enough velocity for reliable expansion, it’s a no brainer. Thanks for the video.
I carry the underwood +p 68 grain 9mm in all my carry guns, and I have at least one mag for each one of my guns and rifles. Underwood to me actually loads all there ammo hot, and in my eyes, the way each caliber is supposed to be loaded. Almost 500ftlbs out of a 9mm is pretty damn good. I love underwood ammo. I was curious about the 45acp +p from g9 because how deep the flutes are on their 45acp anyone have any information on the 45auto +p
I am also a fan of Underwood and it grouped under three inches at 25 yards for me. Perhaps it doesn’t interface well with his S&W semi-auto. It would be interesting to see how it does in a different 9mm handgun for him. My P-226 is loaded with the same ammunition that you are carrying. (Eighteen hundred feet per second muzzle velocity)
Can you redo this test and instead of the long barreled gun you used here, use a smaller gun like the LCP Max? Most people carrying 380s do so for the compact size & concealability, and we would like to see what kind of performance the shorter barrels will yield. If I was going to carry a larger gun I would just opt for a 9mm over a 380.
xtreme defender and glock 42 all the way for .380... it is barrier blind and very accurate for personal defense... want longer range use go with the xtreme penetrator.
Thanks for continuing to test .380, I carry the LCP during the warm weather and this knowledge helps. Also, impressive accuracy at distance. I doubt this old goat could come close to that.
The Underwood Xtreme Defender Platinum Edition (standard pressure); is what I carry in my S&W M&P Bodyguard .380acp. With such a short barrel I am more interested in penetration than expansion. Each pistol is unique and each caliber is as well. Researching what ammunition suits your needs; is essential! Thank you for making these videos ❣️. Your hard work and applied science; makes choices easier for the average consumer. 🙌🏼❣️
You might want to check out the Xtreme Penetrator for your .380. It's got a tad more oomph, just what a .380 needs. But I do go with the XD for my P365X (9mm).
@richardefriend Penetratpr is only going to be good against 4 legged animals if you need it to pierce the chest and into the guts. Otherwise the defender will sti do better against barriers and bipedal targets where you don't need a bullet to hit the lungs and into the guts
I don't know where you get your misinformation from, but after watching over a dozen reviews specifically for .380 ammo, the clear consensus is that for .380, the XP's are BEST for 2 legged creatures. If you're talking about 9mm, then the XDs are best, as a 9mm XP might over-penetrate. But for a .380, the XP supplies a bit more power for the somewhat under-powered .380 so that it'll get the job done quite well And why would anyone use expensive XD or XP ammo on 4 legged creatures. Or a .380???? @@jason200912
The xtreme defender + p is my carry round for my bodyguard. I won’t be shooting 75 yards myself. They do a great amount of damage in organic temperature controlled gel. To each his own that’s why they make a variety.
To duplicate the consistent damage the 38 Special revolver can do with a hard cast, wide flat nosed bullet in the 125 to 158 gr range, auto pistol bullets are continually evolving in different directions, and STILL failing to be as consistently effect as the hard-cast, wide flat nose bullet in the timeless 38 Special.
Very nice, Carry ammo can be very interested because there's so many different types and varieties. Me personally I carry the underwood extreme penetrators because the do lots of damage like hallow points and the go through hard barriers very well.
Thanks to you and Will for this test. Thank you both also for comparing it to the Gold Dot, instead of just each other. That shooting at distance is paying off when we get to see what maintains it's accuracy and what doesn't.
Appreciate the test. I carry a Beretta 84f 380, and have considered these fluted rounds. I’m also someone who likes the ability to reach out to long range, so I will stick with what I carry currently…Underwood +P XTP’s.
For short range personal protection, I think the Xtreme Defender was the clear winner here for the .380. You should also consider Underwood's Xtreme Penetrator for the .380. It adds a bit more oomph--just what a tiny .380 needs.
In my LCP Max I now only carry Defiant Munitions in warm weather and Underwood Xtreme Defender in colder weather. Defiant was made for the Max and consistently penetrates and expands. In my Bersa Thunder, with a longer barrel, I carry those as well as other premium 380 ammo.
I still stock 380 Federal Punch and I still have some 380 XTPs and I plan to get some 380 Sinterfire. Nevertheless, Underwood Xtreme Defender is my first choice for 380 defensive ammo. Xtreme Defender is a game-changer for the 380 pocket pistol. I do appreciate your critical/skeptical points about it and your hesitancy/reservations about it, though. You make some very good and interesting points I hadn't thought of. Such points are largely why I didn't simply stop buying 380 hollow points and switch over to Xtreme Defender as my exclusive 380 defensive ammo.
I think the cup in the bullet causes the tumble. A tumbling bullet causes a lot of damage. I like them more than a hollow point. Fabric can stop up the hollow cavity and you get no expansion. I'm gonna go with the defender. No long shots for me.
I guess the underwood won significantly because it's 200 fps faster. And has a +p option while g9 does not and keeps their powders low and slow which is not a good thing for fluted ammo which needs to spin and tumble as much as possible.
That's what I would appreciate seeing more as well. Gun Sam has been doing a great job, but he could add even more feedback in the tests with FMJ. I think many people would be surprised to see how similarly FMJ and the FTM bullets would perform.
I like the 380 ACP caliber for small pocket pistols. The S&W EZ 380 should get the most out of the cartridge and is good for weak hands. My gut tells me to go with a JHP that has marginal expansion in that caliber. You get more penetration plus some cookie cutter effect, I think. I don't think that the externally fluted rounds are really giving the performance that might be implied by gel. So I would like to get the penetration and perhaps enough energy to break bones.
Very strange! In your video ".380 ACP VS .38 Special - Speer Gold Dot" you had the same ammo same velocity but got 13 inches of penetration with mdf. Here its only 8 inches. Explanations? Can only be variation with the gel.
I do a lot of videos, you would have to be specific or link it. What the bullet expanded to the identical diameter? If it was larger here than the last video, that is your answer.
@@GunSam The ".380 ACP VS .38 Special - Speer Gold Dot" is the exact title and you can find it with it. Its only 3 month ago. The expansion there was .490 here .498 so no big difference but 5 inches of penetration is a big difference. So I think the gel is not consistent.
@@ShutterManAce In the first test he had 4 layers of denim here 4 layers cotton sweatshirt. This is about as equal. He made 5 shots on each over the chrono. In the first video the spread was 23fps what is very low and here it was 65fps what is normal. I have seen a lot of videos with and without layers and several shots fired into gel with the same ammo. This all makes no real difference in penetration and now way 5 inches. But now I found the reason which actually even prove I was right about the gel. In the other video Sam did wear a heavy winter coat here just a t-shirt. So here the temperature was much higher. I guess the warmer gel is more elastic and has more drag. Anyhow its mainly the gel! By the way in this test the same ammo had 78 fps more on average this has to do with air drag that changes with temperature and humidity. But with a 80fps higher velocity and the same expansion he should have had even more penetration but it was less. It has all to do with the gel.
I think Paul Harrel has the right idea of testing rounds with the rib meat sandwich. You get a more real world idea of what these rounds can do, without having to go to an expensive full sim body, like Garand Thumb.
You should add a car or truck door to your test. Id like to see how those bullets do on automotive glass and the metal they use in automotive bodys. Other wise, good video.
Another good test, Sam! Your points are well taken. 👍 My Sig P365 380 and EZ380 are loaded with Xtreme Defenders but are switched to Xtreme Penetrators when the winter coats come out. I prefer the consistent penetration to reach vital areas without the overpenetration of an FMJ. For me, JHP's are too much like a "box of chocolates - you don't know what you're going to get". XD/XP wound channels are more like JHPs than FMJs and, out to 25yds, accuracy is more than acceptable for self-defense.
I RUN MY Ruger SECURITY .380 WITH x-POINT Browning 95 GN. BULLETS IN THE ccw mode. For every day range practice I use cast and powder coated 102 gn RN reloads using 3.0 gn of tightgroup. I get good accuracy and good reliable function with this combination of components but not having any gel blocs to visually evaluate these reloads. I would be very interested in reloaded .380 data and result from the reloading community.
Always enjoy your shows. Seems like the Gold Dots grouped well at 75 yards , maybe you used to it ? Either way they looked good at distance. It’s a 380
Ammo quest did ballistic test 380 using the Taurus TCP 380 pocket pistol actual FBI gel both denim covered and bear gel out of all the 380 rounds the best was the xtp both Hornady xtp fiocchi xtp.. and precision one with the only ones to have both decent expansion and penetration out of the little Taurus TCP 380 ...
Question? Wouldn't the most damage in the first 9 inches be better than just punching through with minimal damage. 9 inches with maximum damage in upper body just seems better.
Short barrel what ever caliber, less penetration . Light bullet vs heavy. I Go heavy FMJ even 9x19. When 6”and + barrel JHP is Ok if loaded +p+ . So then .357 mag please
@GunSam Not accurately. I can throw a rock 75 yards. So that means I should be able to hit a target at 75 yards consistently ? It travels that far, right ? End of story.
@@GunSam Wow ok. Been a sub a long time. What’s with the attitude? Xtreme had better penetration and did more damage than FMJ. Gold Dot had weak penetration. Who cares how they shoot at 75 yards.
@@Bonham1911 I'm actually a little confused by that response as well lol... in the video I saw better penetration and wound channels, and I heard this being spoken as well. the only time the negative came up was the long distance shot. -which it should be noted those rounds would inherently not be suited for due to their design. I believe it's also been spoken about before; that they aren't designed for longer distances. although for example a 9mm is deadly at 100 yards.... in a majority of settings where you are using a ccw, an engagement at that distance is negligent and a liability. If distance was an honest point to be made, than you would put gel at that distance not just a a gong. you would see what kind of expansion and penetration would happen at those distances (honestly I'd love to see it). I think a FMJ could be deadly potentially in .380... but a JHP would have to hit just right at such long distances in regards to a .380 ACP
Clear gel is so weird like the gold dot wound channel looks the same and ed and g9 way better than a bunch of 9mm, .40, and .357 magnum wound channels Ive seen from more standard stuff like hst or gold dot
What if you shot a ham with a die pack in front of it. Cut it apart and Then maybe you could see real damage in flesh. (I have never tried this but it might be interesting.)
Two times I used them on auto glass that old rem hollow ball eighty eight gr was nice for not ricochet ing at too many angles thanks always a good time at your range Peace
all these tests analyze bullets and penetration in gel. no one ever opens a gel up and looks at the real indicator.......the wound channel. looking at a bullet path in gel is a joke
327 Federal Magnum is the Most Versatile Revolver Chambering. Full power loads are as powerful as 10mm or 357 magnum. Also chambers the soft shooting 32 S&W Long. Six Shots instead of Five.
It's a good cartridge, but I wouldn't call it as powerful as .357 Magnum, as in carbines a .327 Federal will still be a couple hundred ft lbs lower than .357 Mag. Now in about a 3" barrel or less, you see .357 Mag even out with .327 Federal and both having the same energy, with less recoil with the .327 Federal.
Thank you for this demonstration. Your results show exactly why I generally pass on the latest super duper highest tech of all ammo. Anything that's way light for caliber and way fast will not have the same point of impact at range as a standard load. Might be fine up close. I'd rather be confident in both cycling and POI. I rarely carry 380 as I find a P365 or Hellcat deep concealable enough. But the LCP's chamber has an XTP in it followed by FMJ. The Gold Dot looks reasonable too.
Good video. I’ve done enough research to rule out HP’s for .380 at this point. I can’t trust the penetration. Accuracy of the Xdefenders at longer ranges is sketchy though. Eli Dicken proved that not all self defense is close range, so I like to not be handicapped in that way. I’m debating on sticking with straight up flat nose FMJ or hard cast.
I really need somebody to explain this whole underpenetration thing to me. It has never made sense. I can't think of a single time where I would want my bullet to go 14-18 inches into my target. That's just asking for overpenetration and hitting somebody else in my house or a bystander in the background. Not to mention the fact that it's a ton of extra energy not going into my target. I can't think of a single place in the human body in a defensive situation where I don't want my round to dump all of its energy 6-8 in inside of the target. Even accounting for hitting bone taking an intra two off of the penetration, 12 in still seems like overkill.
Ballistic gel penetration is NOT a 1:1 to flesh ratio. It's not an exact science, but the equation is similar to that 12" in gel equals 6" in a body. Ballistic gel is only meant to be a reliable repeatable medium that effects the bullets and their expansion the way flesh does. The FBI did a ton of studies and concluded that to hit the heart through an arm with a side shot, you need what equates to 12" minimum in ballistic gel. To not pass through a body front to back, that equates to getting no more than 18" in ballistic gel. So 18" in ballistic gel equals 8" to 9" or so in a body.
@@GunSam Well that's a fantastic bit of information and makes a lot of sense why the numbers seem so counterintuitive in my head. Appreciate it! Edit: Looks like it's definitely time to swap out that critical defense 380 I have for some Underwood lol.
In a 380 I feel penetration is key and second to none. Therefore when I carry 380 in an LCP2 I use the Underwood Extreme Penetrators mostly but sometimes carry JHP, and sometimes FMJ ammo as I'm not worried about over penetration from FMJ's. But mostly I carry the P365XL with a 4.2" threaded True Precision barrel with a Holosun 507K optic. Even with Sig's terrible mushy, gritty trigger I am very accurate with it and can hit 6" plates at 25 yards fairly consistently. I have a KKM 5" threaded barrel in my 4th Gen Glock 20 & find aftermarket barrels to be better than OEM barrels, for both accuracy and reliability. Only wish the Sigs were more durable as they break down after only a couple of thousand rounds through them.
Not counting copper bullets I don't understand why someone doesn't load a heavier bullet. I've shot 115gr Silvertips and they did better than the 85gr. Good shooting at 75 yards.
If the bullet penetrates, lets say 12” exactly, would that mean it would also penetrate about 12” into a human body, if the clothing barrier were similar to the target? Or would it penetrate less or more?
Seemed louder than normal. I am guessing the seal just wasn't that good on there. They are the basic $20 non electronic Walker's and pretty good, but I think I could do better in that price range.
Thank you for doing these tests with a full size gun. With 380 ACP most of the RU-vid videos are shot with pocket pistols with really short barrels. That's not what I carry. So I really appreciate these real world tests.
Sam, Sam, Sam .... So much effort, but you just don't get it! The .380 is so close to the edge of effectiveness that barrel length matters. So, the answer to the question: What will these rounds do out of an LCP size gun. We will never know. I hope you just "forgot" to include the shortie and make another video using the same ammo out of a short barrel.
Just a hint, every .380 round out of an LCP penetrates more than the EZ. I been doing and was doing dozens of LCP tests, and people would never stop about how I 'didn't get it' because the barrel was too short. Hundreds of non stop comments to go longer barrel, so I did....
They get mad at me. I have a big ice scraper/broom I keep in the woods, use for snow in the winter and debris and cobwebs in the summer on my shelf setup. It all gets wiped down every time I film, knocking down spidey homes.
Seems pretty accurate to me. I can't say if it's mechanically accurate compared to something else, but it seems to group pretty good on paper. Not great, but pretty good.
Nothing about them that impressed me when I tested them. Not significantly different for penetration VS a fluted, less seen damage. I would rather just use a cheap hollow point that won't expand, they seem to penetrate about the same as fluted and frangible, but the hollow point even not expanding, tears up the gel.
Great test & outstanding shooting, you are the first person I have seen fire these fluted bullets at distance and it’s good to know that they don’t stabilize at long distances. I now use the Underwood Xtreme Defender +P for my Ruger LCP II after doing a lot of research on fluted monolithic copper bullets and watched videos like your in both gel and meat & bones, also reports from their fluted monolithic hunting bullets in animals, it does a lot of damage. About these +P rounds, there are no SAAMI specifications for .380 +P, it does not and has never existed so there has never been a +P rated .380 pistol. The Underwood +P are simply loaded to the maximum SAAMI pressure for the .380, it’s a hot load which gives you some extra speed, around 80 fps more, and helps drive them a little deeper, around 1.75” deeper in gel test if I remember correctly. Any .380 pistol in good working order can handle them.
The extreme defender is amazing. G9 is nice too. But question: would the gold dot in the heart or head not straight kill someone still? Wouldn’t it reach the heart from the front or still blow into/likely through someone’s head? It’s technically still down to shot placement. I’ll still take the Extreme Def anyway cuz the wound channel looks bigger lol. I also want to know, if ballistics gel really is about equivalent to penetrating a human, penetrates more or less. Like I’ve heard 12” in gel is only 6” in a human, and I’ve also heard it would be more like 18” in a human lol. Hard to know what to believe
Gel is like, half as dense as a person. Yes 12" in gel is like 6" in a person, so you want 6" min to 9" max in a body as people are usually up to 9" thick, which is 12" to 18" in gel. Reason why 6"(12") minimum is because going through an arm on a side shot, you want the round to go through an arm and still enter the thoracic cavity so you want at least 6" which is represented by 12" of gel. Even if you got let's say 9" in gel, this would be plenty for a front shot where only 4.5" needs to be penetrated. But the old FBI specs of 12" are to be totally sure it's going to work. I believe (don't quote me on this) why 6" min (12" in gel) was the minimum is because on the day of the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, one of the agent's bullets stopped like 1" too short of the suspect's heart on a side -through the arm-shot, leading to him being able to kill more agents.
@@GunSamdope thanks Sam, thats what I thought. Could you do a test, tac-xpd vs defiant munitions tcx vs hst? Do 9mm for the coppers and 9mm or .40 for the HST. Id like to see how .40 hst performs compared to 9mm defiant. Also, for .380, the two best expanding hollowpoints are also the defiant tcx, snd then Underwood sku 152 its a +p 90 gr jhp and they both passed fbi protocol for tools&targets. You should really pick up some defiant and test ! Id truly love to see it tested against HST in .40, .380 defiant tested against .380 extremen defender, 9mm defiant tcx (normal and subsonic and sdh are all good) tested against 9mm extreme defender and .40 hst. Just tests like that would be dope
@@GunSam seems to be out of stock and no one mentions it much anymore. Maybe I’m wrong. …. My bad, I missed your video from 2weeks ago. Thanks for the work you do.
I have, dozens of times. But because it malfunctions with JHP ammo, the comments will not stop, never ending with NOT commenting on the topic at hand, and rather focusing, hyper focusing 200% on a single malfunction I get. It becomes incessant to the point of having to delete a good video over it.
What is your point? I made it clear it was not defensive. But you mentioned my specific distance as if you skipped over me clearly saying, it's not defensive.
Thank you again for an excellent and USEFUL test! I never mind the repetitive explanations because there are ALWAYS new shooters joining your page. Organic gel shows wound tracks much better than the clear synthetic gel, but it is more work to make and keep cool. It is important to use a black background behind the side of the gel to keep light from clouding the gel image. TNOutdoors always used organic gel with black backgrounds and got great views of wound tracks, but he did have the luxury of a garage on his own backyard shooting range! He also used a powerful flashlight to explore the tracks..........................elsullo
Have you tested the fluted bullet loads in a Snub nose into gel? I always see that the 38 special versions of these loadings always seem really underwhelming just from the specs on the box.
