Could Apaches & Warthogs Win The 1940 Battle Of Dunkirk At Night? (WarGames 38a) | DCS 

Don't be a fool! The government has had secret trade relations with aliens since the 1920s, they'll provide the GPS

Valuable point! LOL

Awesome. Oh by the way add some m1a s and they will win any where

@@EddieA907 I'd love to see a "Final Countdown" type of movie with Abrams tanks taking on the WW2 German armored divisions. I picture it as a man with a sledgehammer taking on an army of snails crawling on the sidewalk.

I just watched binkov's battleground it prompted the comment . His past battle re do' s are entertaining.

Agree. We can't forget the losses recorded by the enemy were still significant based on only the ground forces. The multiplying effect of reduced armour, moral, change of tactics required to deal with the night attacks etc. would have made the allied forces ground units more effective.

Don't forget the fact that nights are long and a second or third attack could be done in a single night.

Yeah I couldn't even begin to imagine the psychological damage of watching entire columns of tanks being deleted in an instant would have

I felt a chill down my spine ha ha ha

I think Winwing asked him to stop that one.

@@trottheblackdog Oh, I guess they are just not ok with tense situations in general, that's too bad.

Agree the multiple-day campaigns are the best. However, they should only post the first day on youtube and the rest on Rumble. I work in online marketing for a living.

@@coreymoyers5771 Oooh... Enticement... Say, I haven't checked out their Rumble yet. Do they have anything exclusive there?

@@totalnerd5674 Not yet. However, they will if they are smart. Currently, they only have 13 videos.

Let's not forget that Cap nearly flew off the map a couple of vids back. It happens to the best . Simba was just flanking them, hoping that they would surrender .

If you listen to her give briefings (like when they do SAM site penetration missions) or watch some of their submarine missions, you can tell she's also super smart. And if you watch her fly, she may be the best pilot in Grim Reapers. And if not, she's close. Also, she spells her name with a K (Kortana).

@@Kaelland thanks for the info, cool to know

They had AA meant to shoot down aircraft that flew faster and higher than helicopters... This notion they wouldnt be engaged is silly. Heck, Taliban fighters with a PKM have forced Apache to RTB. Then you have the interceptors of the time. While AIM might shoot down a few of them, depending on how they hit considering aluminum fighters with jet engines are more vulnerable to random damage, there would just be too many, I think.

The A-10 can shoot down low flying aircraft as well with its 30mm cannon. A-10s shot down Iraqi helicopters in the gulf war it would be possible for a skilled A-10 plot to do the same to a Heinkel bomber.

ED won't be adding APKWS to the apache sadly. Additionally this is the US apache so no sidewinders either. Also the gun is essentially just HE so it won't pen even WW2 German armor.

@@joshuaortiz2031 Go ahead, take 5x guys in BF109 vs 1x A10. See how it goes. Do you think operating in theater is like Warthunder arcade. You just press reload to gain ammo back. You think the Germans would send a 1on1 when they were clearly getting hit by some "magic weapon" system they didnt know about.

@@Lobos222 I was talking about downing the Heinkel bombers the Germans were using in Dunkirk. Those planes are bigger and slower targets then the BF109. I dont play warthunder or world of tanks or world of warships or any of those games not that I am putting them down but they are just that, video games with little realism. I was in the military service I did nine years in the Army and the National guard and i come from a military family that fought in every american war since world war one so you dont have to lecture me. I had an uncle that was an AC130 spectre gunship pilot and then flew the KC130 tankers he knew a lot about planes. This is a ridiculous thing to argue about anyway since time travel doesnt exist.

They probably would have started retreating if they heard that whispering noise return on night 2 lol

@@JackThelRipper Valid point lol

And lost basically every Bren gun in the country.

That's British losses old boy. The English only made up part of our forces.

One of the greatest defeats in history. And the worst part is it easily could have been worse but hitler decided to wait 3 days.

Ac130's almost exclusively operate at night so yes, they have night optics.

@@92HazelMocha lol I meant in DCS? My bad wasn't clear on that. I'm asking bc I kno In Game AC-130 is a bit strange to use and don't recall ever seeing a DCS Vid with AC-130 using night vision

@@92HazelMocha fun fact both The AH-64 Apache and AC-130J have Laser Weapons mounted on them

@@Anarchy_420 In DCS the AC130 mod doesn't have a gunners sight of any kind, let alone one with night optics. As far as HELWS goes, while the apache test was a big milestone, we're along way off from it being useful kit, especially for AC130's or Ah64's as their primary mission set is ground attack, not engaging drones or guided munitions.

With the cardboard keyboard overlay?

Was there?wow wow wow

thx

It isn't really about the specific number of kills, it's all about the ratio. For example, there were only a few Apache's here and an A-10 pilot would have night vision goggles if not IR from the latest sensor pack on current A-10's. The DCS A-10's just aren't modeled to include the present day electronic package and other improvements made via new variants, including this Apache too. So, they destroyed 20% of the smaller representation of enemy forces. If it's extrapolated for additional Apache's and additional enemies per Apache, then 20% (plus many other casualties) from this night offensive would have had a significant impact on their encirclement of Dunkirk and hesitation from their commanders. Just trying to help, but that's my understanding of what this video implies.

@@jamison884 Yes, but the Germans already outnumbered the Allies 2 to 1 @ Dunkirk & the operation was meant to be a fighting retreat; never meant to be a dig-in and make our last stand type of thing. 20% is significant damage to be sure, and it would have delayed the German advance, but the Allies had already decided to evacuate no matter what.

The Germans had lost 100 tanks in the battle irl and had 800,000 men encircling the port. Sure they could have splashed basically all of the panzers but the BEF would still have had to evacuate.

And this is why no matter how advanced the machines of war get, the new weapons and countermeasures tend to cancel each other out until the humble footsoldier is left as the only decisive implement of war.

There is ZERO chance that Germany or most other nations at the time would be able to reverse engineer an Apache within the time frame ww2 lasted.

@@Lobos222 lol yeah they would probably surrender the moment they take a good luck inside a downed Apache and realized they were fighting an enemy that was half a century more advanced.

Its a PC game, not Back To The Future.

@@Lobos222 exactly. You can't reverse engenier Mikrochips in the timeframe of 1935 to 1945. Try it yourself with things from a household tool box. they didn't have more then. it was all analog and purely mechanical. We mustn't forget today's microchips are made in the nanometer range.

If we're in grayscale it makes more sense, and it'd help if DCS modeled IR properly (thermal crossover, proper material returns). DCS doesn't do it quite well.

@@WyvernFalken Yeah. My experience is of the TICM imagers of the type used in the older AV8 NAVFLIR. I worked for the company that made them.

@@No1sonuk Nice. FMV analyst on the Predators/Reapers, and a few manned assets.

Apaches would definitely have an advantage with being able to fly much lower than fixed wing aircraft and target the AAA guns from further out than the WWII planes. And the advantage of advanced night vision would make spotting the AAA guns much easier.

AAA during WW2 used fused shells that had to be fused for different altitudes. They’re also usually pointed at the sky to hit bombers. It would take time to refuse shells, retrain the AAA guns and spot them. In their gulf storm configuration from the early 90’s AH64 could easily fly low altitude, pop top laser a target and launch a hellfire missile from 5 miles away, hit their target and then drop back down below the horizon line and reposition. Destroy anti air in this method and then wrap up tanks and infantry with rocket and 20mm auto cannon fire.

True the Apaches have many advantages with their technology and tactics, but that doesn't make them invulnerable. The Germans didn't just use flak they also had auto canon AAA. Yes the Apaches can fly very low and pop up and all that...but no one is going to fly perfectly, have perfect situational awareness etc. My suggestion is to see exactly how effective the Apaches would be against WW2 German AAA...I don't expect that AAA to easily defeat the Apaches but it does still present a challenge and I would like to see how the Reapers handle it. We saw Apaches get shot down during this very mission. Granted, the enemy should not have been able to spot them at night, but the point is even old technology can be very dangerous. Its true that the Apaches can target AAA from a distance but are they going to know exactly where it all is? Might they stray into an area where some is still active? If their primary target is say, German aircraft parked on the runway/fuel tanks, are they going to have enough ordinance to destroy all the AAA in the way AND take out the primary target? I think a lot of things could happen in such a scenario...would love to see how it played out.

@@christophero55 your also down playing the presence of an A-10 in this scenario. Germany during WW2 had no radar systems, no as missiles, A-10 Thunderbolts are equipped with night vision and a wide range of air to ground weaponry. Spot lights aren’t going to be able to track a low flying fast moving aircraft like this and with 2000lb, 500lb bombs , rockets, not to mention that 30mm Gau on the front it’s more deadly at attacking ground targets than anything Germany faced.

@@christophero55 Real world tactics would have had the choppers standing off a little more. The Germans would have fired but would have been firing blind for the most part.

The enemy still have the allid ground forces to contend with as well. 20% enemy losses would have definitely increased survivability of those ally ground forces during evacuation.

The Germans had 800,000 men in the region, sure you could splash all the tanks but the infantry still would have had the enemy overwhelmed.

Does... the trigger count? jk, I know 7.92 is highly unlikely to down an AH-64, but still it's worth a lol

They also shoot at 2nm which is about 4km, far far beyond the range of any WW2 tank.

Hellfires give better standoff than rockets (11km for Hellfires versus 4 to 8 km max effective range for rockets, depending on type). Add to that the fact that most rockets are unguided (although there are laser guided rockets IRL, but they don't appear to be modeled in DCS and available for the Apache, though). Plus, a lot of rockets, especially a lot of the smaller rockets like the Hydra may not have the oomph to penetrate thicker armor such as what's found on a tank, especially the front of a tank where the armor is the thickest and angled to help deflect incoming rounds. Hydra rockets are designed more for lightly armored or unarmored vehicles and anti-personnel functions. Plus, it can be hard to fire rockets with a really high degree of accuracy. But Hellfires are laser guided, so as long as you're holding your laser on target and you're in range, they're almost guaranteed to hit (laser code conflicts notwithstanding). Now, IF you could guarantee something close to 100% accuracy with Hydra rockets while maintaining standoff distance, and IF you could guarantee kills with 4 hits or less, then yes, they would probably be a better choice. Each LAU-61 pod carries 19 rockets, and each Apache can carry 4 pods. If you could get that 1-hit kill on a tank with them, you could potentially rack up 76 kills per gunship. Even if it took 4 hits, you'd be looking at a potential of 19 kills per helicopter. As soon as you need a 5th hit to get a kill, though, you're dropping yourself to 15 potential kills per airframe, at which point, you're better off carrying a full load of 16 Hellfires. I just ran a simulation with 3 AI driven Apaches each carrying 4 LAU-61 pods and set them on 5 WWII era Panzer tanks in DCS. Every one of them fired salvos of 16 rockets, missed with every salvo until they got close, got shot up with the MGs mounted on the German tanks, kept firing 16-shot salvos, and eventually killed the tanks. Interestingly enough, the kills were scored after landing two or three rockets on each tank. So yes, it might be a viable strategy if you can get high enough accuracy with your rockets. But the way the AI does it, even at Ace skill level, is trash.

@@Kaelland i did not realize that rockets were that short range. that being said the effective range of the 88 against air at that time was roughly 8km, im not sure what the next step down was for the germans but the brit 40mm pom pom (which should be pretty close to any 40 mm AA they had at the time) had an effective range of just under 4km and the 2cm flak only had an effective range of 2.2km as for armor penetration, the pz3 had at best 60mm or armor but probably only 30mm, and the pz4 only had 20mm at best, at the time this is 1940. the bar is pretty low and we are throwing weapon systems that are almost 40 years more advanced then them at them and doing it at night.

No. It doesn't use any type of armor piercing rounds, it's primarily an area of effect weapon used agaisnt dismounted infantry and light vehicles.

@@92HazelMocha thanks for the clarification :)