Steve, I retired from government civil service after nearly 35 years in government IT.My experience tells me that this sort of incompetence occurs when a private contractor wins with the low bid
I think it’s safe to assume that there’s also some kickbacks at play here. I’d look at the financials of the officials who nominated and approved this company. Somebody’s getting a piece of that action.
I wrote claims adjudication software. If the automated error rate exceeded 5% at any time, I was immediately contacted to analyze and fix the problem, and all rejections had ways to manually override the rejection. Overall, our error rate was well under 1%.
And that's still very high given the number of claims. You know that, I know that, and I'm sure if you could cut that error rate further, you would immediately do so because of the money it would save your employer to have you working on other things. In case of fire: git commit -am "FIRE!" git push git -tf out
@@knghtbrd Absolutely, we constantly sought to reduce the error/rejection rate. We pulled a report monthly showing the most common rejections, and looked to see if we could do anything to reduce those. Sometimes, we could, sometimes we couldn't. Sometimes, we could mitigate it be sending a more useful/informative rejection message. But we always sought to reduce any errors or rejections we could feasibly eliminate. The less manual intervention needed, while still minimizing fraud and abuse, the better for everyone.
If I or you ran a business that took peoples money that did not owe us , we would be arrested for fraud and be liable for the return of the money. This kind of stuff will just get worse until we start having politicians thrown in jail that do stuff like this.
man, it's amazing how many lawsuits the cities walk themselves into. every city should have a risk management assessor to avoid this stuff rather than pay out 10s of millions each year.
Don't be so quick to give private business a pass. I work for one of the largest banks in the US and 6 years ago we adopted a new SOR (System of Record) which replaced our aged, but robust system. Right away we started calling it the "60 million dollar notepad", because making notes on accounts were all we could do. It frequently crashed and it never really automated the systems we needed automated. The system was sending foreclosure notices to people who didn't have a mortgage with us...during covid!
There should be an investigation into how the software development contract was originated. Sounds a whole lot like somebody hired their brother in law of frat brother...
In the UK the Royal Mail put in an accounting computer system at post offices which identified nonexistent thefts that had Post Masters being sent to prison. It took years before the Royal Mail admitted the fault in the system and that only after being sued by people who had suffered losses.
Sue them all as individuals, because the idea of a class action was denied, and let the judge sort them out. Also add court costs and reasonable attorney's fees.
The robot code will show that its program was designed to deny benefits and punish with false fraud claims. Perhaps it's to save money and get rewards for making quotas ? Perhaps it's to target conservative citizens, the "deplorable" majority? A small group that lies,perjures,uses the law as a weapon, frauds, demands payments upon false pretenses= Criminal, mob, liberal government. The same skeezy sleazys that coded , purchased the code, runs the robo department, accounting, and Administration that ran this money funnel, bad program did this to people during pandemic lockdown, this is attempted murder.
"No company would build something that failed 93% of the time and say 'Yeah, that's a success.'" They would if it made them money and they had an effective monopoly in their business sector. Hell, there are many things about RU-vid that you could apply that model to, from their monetization algorithm to their copyright enforcement system. RU-vid isn't going out of business any time soon due to these practices because if any competition crops up big daddy Google will either buy them out or stomp them out. When there's nothing to loose, everything to gain, and no oversight then you will find fraud, waste, abuse, and corruption.
Well if the government and the corporations won't do anything then it falls on the consumers. If you are really upset about the situation stop using the service.
@@ClockworkWyrm That doesn't always work. If the corporation in question has an effective monopoly in their business sector, which often happens in the tech industry, then I can't take my money to a competitor in protest because none exists. I can delete my Facebook and Twitter accounts in protest to their practices (and I have) but Facebook and Twitter still exist and they aren't changing their business practices because I have. Most of my friends and family are still on Facebook so deleting my account deprived me of a channel of communication with them. The only person I hurt by deleting my account was me. Mark Zuckerberg is still making Billions regardless.
And you guys still line up to 'vote' to exercise your 'democratic rights'. Yeah. Right. Alright then. If only everybody voted just right, we will solve all our problems. Yep
@@michaeldoe4805 I vote. Have since I turned 18 some 50 years ago. I've learned it makes no.difference. We the people don't decide a damn thing... WAKE UP PEOPLE
I can honestly believe them that they were just following orders. Robots do what they are told and if you've ever tried working with government to get instructions then you know how that ends up.
a 7% fail rate should trigger robust oversight. a 50% fail rate should result in a full refund of product. a 93% fail rate should bring down administrations. fire every department head with oversight authority, up to and including the Governor
Wisconsin still has a backlog of 15,000 unpaid claims, some people have been waiting for over a year. The department has done very little to fix the problem. I wonder if these were the same people that made the Obama Care website.
I'd like to see the specification the government sent to the mfg for the equipment, maybe it required 93% failure rate so they could collect millions knowing most could not afford to sue
@@dougjones9493 True, but when you have a 93% error rate and millions of applicants, you WILL end up with enough people banning together to sue. If they had a < 10% rate we probably wouldn't have seen it get anywhere.
There is also a problem when a governmental entity farms out the management and enforcement of traffic related systems to private companies. In Georgia, many school districts have farmed out school bus stop cameras to an external company. Several states farm out charging for HOV lane fees. The problem is that these companies take half of any fees collected, and as a result charge folks for fees and fines that are unjust. It is especially egregious when these companies are handed authority to fine individuals on behalf of the state.
They tried to use speed cameras in Alaska. When challenged in the AK Supreme Court 5000 tickets were thrown out because of the possible corruption in sharing the money with the camera manufacturer.
Dad you promised you'd stop posting these if we gave you the wifi password back. Steve's channels fine but please just don't post any pictures of the dog asleep in different parts of the house. You caught half of mom bending over in the buff in the background of the last one and everyone with good eyesight on FB noticed. We said you we're nailing the housekeeper to save Mom's dignity.
selling someone something makes you liable for their use of it? So if you sell someone a roll of duct tape and they use it in a murder, you are now guilty of murder as well? You were just following orders, right?
@@NorthernS0utherer The most stable version of Windows ever created was when the merged Windows CE and Windows ME and Windows NT. They Named it CEMENT.
@@binkythecat457 Maybe they meant that everyone who created the program learned something from the Nuremberg trials or Issac Asimov, but didn't want to be to obvious about it.
I was a programmer and worked for a bank back in the 80's in charge of Demand Deposits system (checking accounts). The bank personnel came to me with a project to change the statement drop dates for customers - it was designed to be run so that the drop date each month corresponded to the date the account was created in the system. Instead they wanted to change it so that it was done alphabetically(???) by last name or company name. I informed them that if they made this change then some customers would get two statements in a month with two monthly service charges (charges happened when the statements dropped) and others wouldn't get a statement that month. I was told they knew what they were doing and to not bother them with details. I refused. After several meeting my boss and I were told that we either do it or we would be fired. My boss had me draw up a letter stating that we believed this would cause problems if done this way and that they would take responsibility for it which they did. When customers began coming in complaining about getting two service charges in the same month and others didn't get their statements that month an official from the bank went to my boss and demanded I be fired immediately. My boss called me and had me bring in a copy of the letter that was signed to his office. After the bank official read the letter and saw it had been signed by a bank official (VP) and left the meeting. I didn't get fired but had a black mark placed in my file for doing something I knew would not work! Programmers follow orders to not get fired - it is the way it is. We do not know the legal aspects of what are in the contracts, etc., the bank officials are supposed to know that. So especially for this story where the programmers are contractors who do not work for the entity and therefore do not know the business, and there is probably a contract which states the business is responsible for providing expertise in making decisions as to what should be done, then yes - doing what you are told to do is the right thing!!
Let me clarify a few things after re-reading what I wrote. What the bank wanted was if a customers last name started with an A then their statement would always drop on say the 3rd of the month, if it were a V W X Y or Z then it would drop on say the 27th of the month. They wanted the change to happen on the 14th of a specific month so if a customer had a last name of Parker for instance and their statement normally dropped on the 10th then they would get a service charge on the 10th of the (change) month, then again on say the 17th of that month when the P's would trigger. Thus they would be charged a service charge only 7 days apart in that one month. Likewise if someone had the last name King (K would have a new drop day of 12th) but their old statement drop date was the 16th, then they would not get a statement for almost 2 full months (remember back then there was no online balance check available). The reason they wanted this done was to give more balance to how many statements were processed on any given day (more people tend to open accounts at the beginning or end of the month than in the middle of the month). So the customer would only receive a double charge or no statement in the one month the change was made. I also worked for many years as a contractor (consultant) at various companies. I would go in and be told "we have this software that does this and we need it modified to also do that". I wouldn't have any idea how the system was created to perform tasks, or what laws might be involved with actions taken on the data provided from any changes I would make. My guess is that this system in Michigan was originally designed to flag accounts as appearing to be fraudulent so that people could research it more. Then later a new request was made that any time this system flags an account there should be actions taken to send that information to another system. The other system would then be responsible for sending out notifications and possibly even billing information, or might feed into an already existing system that does billing and notifications. Because of the modular nature of most software, the Fraud Module team might not know how the data they found was going to be used and the Billing Module Team wouldn't know how accurate the information being input was. So yes you do what you are instructed with the assumption that the responsible group telling you to do it knows what they are doing.
@@BoomerTex Good fight to help the company and cover your ass. You tried way harder than most would have. Sucks it still failed. Scumbag boss you had. A good company would have fired him and promoted you. Whenever I am in a situation like that, I always have a little voice saying, "They are the boss. They know things you don't. You just aren't understanding the system." That voice has never been right. I've been lucky with a smart boss of my boss who agreed with me and changed the plan. But then you have to deal with your boss who now hates you. That's life, I suppose.
@@BoomerTex - In instances like these, it is those running the dept who are liable, not the programmers. The programmers do not make policy decisions. It was insane that they thought that they could carry on with a 93% error rate and eventually would not falsely accuse someone who could take them on and win. I hope the Plaintiffs take them to the cleaners with a big penalty for negligence and wilful neglect
Hi Steve, I love that I came across your channel a few months ago. I love your commentary, laughter, and insight (and the kick ass shirts). Thanks for the great stuff!
We've long established that the ability to delay gratification for greater reward is a sign of intellect and is compounded in efficacy by surveillance of peers. So let's pay people after these computer systems provide proven public results not before.
They feel they have no liability. Third party companies working for larger companies are just as bad. I worked for one. They are horrible to the consumer Our nation has been so screwed up by incompetence and those who just don’t care what they do to another or the mind thought “it’s not my money” or even worse entitlement attitude... not really a legal rebuttal, still puts a burr in my saddle That’s ridiculous 93! No one notice before this... it does sound like there is a culprit... or dozens They are not military they can’t use the following orders... even in military there is a line. A person should know if there work is correct or not. It might be why they forced me out of government work and into retirement. I have a tendency to not let an issue drop and I’d take it to the top if they would allowed me access. I’m not prefect... people just don’t want hear that they could possibly be wrong, or get fired, or get yelled at, they say follow your chain of command... that doesn’t always work. I’m ranting. I think most of us are sick and tired of the BS that has been seething like locus on our country taking it down block by block. Someone thinks they can use the court system to bully their way through our government and destroy us from the inside out. People better get on their toes and I’m talking to myself too. My life has just about been demolished. I’m not a stupid person. I just have no idea where to begin to fix it I keep getting, for lack of a better term, road blocked. The threads that run beneath are shredding and we are looking at a false sense of security
This reminds me of "Robodebt" in Australia. They used a system to compare yearly income with benefit claims and just assumed people earned an even amount every fortnight of the year. While the actual system for benefits depends on actual fortnightly earnings. So if you worked 6 months of the year and were on benefits for 6 months you were almost guaranteed a "Robodebt" even though your claim was 100% legitimate. They also removed the human oversight and managed to reverse the burden of proof. Then made the appeals process almost impossible to navigate. Then they handed off the debts to debt collectors even while it was being appealed. The courts have since ruled it illegal and eventually a while later they shut it down. The government still defends it. Many suicides have been traced back to it and it raised stuff all money as it was so often wrong. Most of what it did collect will likely end up having to be returned with interest once the courts finally deal with it totally. But it made for a great budget line item showing their projected income from the program...
When ya finally do make sure it really is one. You never really can be too careful THESE DAYS.😞. It used to be simple, jailbait or not. Today it might be a he trying to be a she or some other mix of each trying to be something else🤔. Boy I miss the 70’s where a guy could go out and get laid without a Hold Harmless Agreement with signature witness😞
I worked for MDIT (Mich Dept of Information Technology) when it was first created by then Governor John M. Engler. I was in the field services division of supporting hardware and software issues on PCs and file servers. I am also a computer programmer and still enjoy doing it. With that said, the amount of horrors and tax dollars wasted over sloppy software development was beyond belief. This does not surprise me to see this is continuing to this day!
And I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves
One of the biggest problems with Govt IT projects is the constantly changing specs given during development. Add to that the likelihood this system was Probably supposed to flag a case for human investigators, but... cutbacks.
On what basis were penalties quadrupled? They get do pre-emptively begin denying benefits and begin collection measures, and yet they themselves don't have abide by existing penalties proscribed by law? I'll bet legislators never voted for that.
93% error rate is a another way of saying extortion w/prejudice !!! Why is it that the government we pay vast amounts of money to not to mention the equal waste, can make such egregious “ mistakes “ aren’t called crimes 🙏🏼🇺🇸✨
MI State Treasurer: "So, what's the error rate on this program?" Programmer: "97%." MI State Treasurer: "Hm-m-m-m, that doesn't sound too good. So, what's the payment rate by those in the 97%?" MI State accountant: "100% at four times what we paid out." MI State Treasurer: "That's a win! We go live tomorrow!"
One of my sons got a stimulus check. Six months later the government sent him a letter demanding he return the funds claiming he collected unemployment as well. He never left his job!! We’re still fighting with them.
Collecting unemployment doesn't mean someone doesn't get the stimulus check too. They are doubly wrong in trying to get the money back. Only making too much would mean he shouldn't have gotten the check and if they said he got unemployment, then it's extremely unlikely that he would have made too much.
I would be very concerned that someone might have collected unemployment in his name or that the letter is fraud. Collecting unemployment would only effect his stimulus check if it somehow raised his income too high or something similar.
"We were only following orders" worked so well in a place called Nuremberg and the Judge knew this. I wonder if the Lincoln Law applies to this given the cost of this system.
i am happy this is finally going to court. Hoping for big penalties... I was denied unemployment because I have a good paying job 15 years ago. NOW, 2019-2020 I was working at a fast food joint. Then had hours limited and then laid off. Now to top it all off I was sent a letter demanding money back to the state that I did NOT receive !
You should look into Robodebt in Australia. Much the same but at the Federal level. They spent $680million to recover $780million. The High Court ruled that it was wholly without legal merit and they ended up refunding $780m. The programme ended up costing the government close to $700million
I hope they do a deep dive to see what was buried in the system to see who or what criteria was used to deny benefits. I know a lot of bar and restaurant waiters and bartenders that were denied benefits for months. Was it job type based? Normal income level? Geography? This could get really ugly.
Dont be so quick to blame the contractors. Having worked for several software development companies that have developed applications for federal, state, and local governmental agencies, I have personally seen similar problems. From my experience, its not incompetent development (although it can be). Quite often the contractors tell the government agencies that their requirements do not make sense, are flawed, or have other issues that will cause problems. The representatives from the government agencies tell the contractors that is how they want it done. So the contractors do what they are being paid to do. Inevitably, the system goes live and does not do what it is intended. Smart companies will have documentation proving they brought these issues up and they were told to proceed anyway.
A project like this had to have customer approved functional and technical requirements documentation, along with detailed documentation of the methodology and results all levels of testing and validation, which also had to have been reviewed and approved by all parties. We will see if the government and/or the private firm decline to turn over such documentation or are unable to do so.
As a software engineer for one of the largest corporations in the country, I always find it hysterical when people say private businesses wouldn't allow this level of incompetence. Hell, I'm four years deep in a project that's been clearly failing for two and is almost certainly never gonna go anywhere, the teams that were supposed to use it have already found other solutions, but management just keeps pumping money into it under a sunk cost fallacy...
Alaska is the same. Media doesn't cover it. Thousands of Alaskans who collected unemployment when the state put them out of work, collected it, then were sent trheatening letters by the state demanding they repay it. People were freaked out. They paid the money back and then two weeks later were sent a letter of apology. This just adds to the fact that the state is committing fraud, threatening people unlawfully and never being held to account.
Robo-adjudication is the greatest term I’ve come across in ages. This reminds me of the Robo-Signing foreclosure scandal during the 2008 financial crisis. Ok, maybe that never achieved a 93% error rate, but the private sector can compete in the area of robo-theft ...
So, the judge is saying that even the government isn't incompetent enough to screw something up 93% of the time? They had to contract that level of ineptness out to a third party.
That’s what they are allowing to happen now. I know someone that recently went through this. She didn’t lose her job, and somehow someone filled for & received unemployment benefits in her name. Her boss gave her a copy of the paperwork which included the address where the benefits were being sent in another state. She said it took 4 months to get it stopped, and NO they did not attempt to prosecute the person who did it.
The accuracy required should have been in the contract to develop the program, and the state should have been doing hand audits to confirm the actual error rate met the standards, prior to full payment. This is the kind of things which happen, when the agency writes it’s own contract specifications, rather than letting subject area experts/contracting experts write the performance specifications. What a cluster.
