Critical Role [Ep. 97] - Kiki vs The Cliff 

DnD in a nutshell

@Remy B Well, its up to dm how the rules works in the end, so kinda but not really XD

Remy B they weren’t ignored, it was changed. It’s often house ruled that falling damage is kinda dumb that it maxes out. It’s supposed to represent terminal velocity, but a barbarian would not be able to survive a fall off of Mt. Everest.

Remy B high lvl barbarian? Maybe. High lvl ANYONE ELSE? Absolutely not.

Remy B many people interpret “hp” mechanic as taking glancing hits. You can not take a glancing hit from gravity.

I agree. it had me almost in tears

That was the best line of this whole clip.

Think everyone was still dying from laughter because of the shock that she took 300+ damage by hitting rocks as a goldfish.

they were probably too busy to laugh while trying to deal with the fact that keyleth was dead

Taliesin’s iron fish joke should have gotten a much bigger laugh if that’s the case. Just saying

Travis and Sam

Sam said “I’m a Golden god!”

A truly unappreciated comment for sure XD

"IT'S LIKE DROPPING A RED VELVET CAKE FROM A HUNDRED FLOORS UP " God each of the cast reactions are incredible but it's impossible to not get caught up in Travis' hysterical energy.

@@TheCoolguymanly And we can't forget Ashley with "It's only 7:15!!" to Matt, and Matt responding with "I KNOW!!"

"Those are Ironfish."

though due to their small mass and surface area they don't suffer from falls.

@@stm7810 They absolutely do, and the momentum is still maintained.

@@Hjernespreng oh, forgot the momentum of a human going into a gold fish, yeah, she's paste.

@@stm7810 Honestly, regardless of human momentum if you drop a goldfish from 1000 feet onto rock its dead no matter what. I wouldn't even have rolled for damage in this scenario, if you don't turn into a flying creature or cast feather fall or a similar spell you are just dead. It's a 1000 foot fall onto rocks.

Ironically, a lot of the time (100% out of character) Travis gets that brain cell.

@@dysfunctionalcaterpillar790 That explains sooo much in C2...

@@dysfunctionalcaterpillar790 I think sam has its own personal defective brain cell as well. Too much wit there.

@@bulldozer8950 Sam has a brain cell?

@@TieflingKumasi i don’t think sam ever has control of the brain cell

Kaipyro67ALT that is why there is a damge cap because, the garage cap is them hitting terminal velocity

@@frog7763 Right, but at 20th level you can absolutely survive 20d6 damage.

@@Kaipyro67ALT 20th level? The average roll of 20d6 is 70. 70 isn't going to outright kill most classes at around lvl 5 or 6. Unconscious sure but not dead. The beefier classes are walking away from it at lvl 10-12.

@@iweartophots Ooookay? I know that. What are you trying to say? Why did you state something I already made a point of stating?

@@Kaipyro67ALT The point is terminal velocity kills EVERYTHING. You drop a person, an elephant, a mouse, a rhino, a whale, whatever. EVERYTHING DIES at terminal velocity. After a certain point, the cap makes no sense. If you jump off a 1000ft cliff onto jagged rocks, you die. Period. If you hit terminal velocity, you WILL die. Hit points no longer matter. If I drop you from 2 miles up, you die. There are point when logic has to take over.

100d6

technically, she possibly had the right idea of going as small as possible, but she didn't go small enough. Now, had she turned into a spider or an ant, she would have survived as their mass is so small that they cannot be harmed by falling - to quote "The smaller the object the more buoyant it is in air and the greater the effect of drag. So, yes a creature as small as a spider can fall nearly any distance and remain unharmed."

@@Nightraven26 Even if she had, she turned into the goldfish "at the last second". So her velocity would have been all racked up in human form, and her small form wouldn't have enough time for air resistance to slow it down. I don't think a smaller animal would have saved her there. A bird, on the other hand...

@@yf-n7710 that is true, actually.

@@yf-n7710 well, how much distance does a human body, being the average 6foot weighing 180lbs, travel downwards at terminal velocity for 1 second? I believe the distance of 1 seconds of terminal velocity human would be well more than enough time for a small insect like and ant or spider to catch enough friction to surface ratio to slow down to unharmable status.

Well, except for maybe Liam. He looks more disbelieving than amused.

@@squeezie_b8895 liam felt to me more like the line of lanipator's as vegeta from DBZA "i just had an aneurysm out of sheer stupidity"

@@Graywolf335 trully a man of culture

To be fair Liam seemed kinda halfway between

There's no point in being empathetic when she directly ignored all warnings and logic and didn't read on what her shape-change/polymorph whatever spell's rules were. At that point, you've made your bed, you'll lie in it. It was funny to watch karma do its thing, though!

That's right, he made the irresistible suicide cliff for her to jump off of. Definitely on Matt. XD

That's because Marisha is an idiot.

"THIS WAS NOT IN MY PLAN!" Either way Matt, I am dying! 😂😂😂

And technically, of the main members, due to what happened IRL, Tiberius already had that covered after he was killed by one of the Chroma Conclave trying to protect Draconia.

​​@@BryonYoungbloodshe should have been permawasted for arrogant disrespect of the setting and the suspension of disbelief with her "who cares we're basically gods (ergo we can do whatever we want bc we are the most important thing in this universe)" approach to the reality of the world. She did it bc she knew no matter what she'd be allowed to live. That is metagaming on the level Orion would never dare to try

@@oleyullah In all fairness to Marisha, this is one of the situations where the player sees less than their character. Keyleth would have looked down and have seen the cliff wasn't vertical. Marisha assumed it was, and didn't clarify because that's what she imagined. I've played with a lot of DMs who punish their players for not being in the world their characters inhabit, forgetting something that their character would be very much aware of.

@@BryonYoungbloodHe got McLeaned

Not if they only have their own stupidity to blame

There's a "You idiot" that is well-warranted at that moment.

I wonder if we see this moment in the show because that would be awsome.

@@ashishgohil_ Maybe even have *Grog* ask something like "Couldn't she have just turned into a bird or something?" so that even the *dumbest* member of the team was still smart enough to know that jumping off of a 1500+ ft. cliff without being able to fly *WAS A VERY BAD IDEA* ....and yet Keyleth did something that even *GROG* would have been smart enough to not even try! XD

Laura and Marisha even stumble across the idea of flying, and then "nah" it at about 3:20.

@@gamester512 Dumbest member? You are talking about Professor Grog, the Grand Poobah de Doink of All of This and That, you rapscallion!

thefridgefreezer She diiid grow up in a state that probably wouldn't have taught her that.

@@PattPlays even if you include the rule that you only take half the falling damage when you falling into water would killed her.

@@berndarndt9924 Technically it still shouldn't have killed her. In fact, it probably should have barely even hurt her. Have her splat out of fish form with a tiny bruise on her knee or something. It just doesn't take a lot of energy to bring something as light as a goldfish from terminal velocity to 0 velocity. For example, a mouse might get away with limp after falling off a building while a horse would death-splat, break every bone in its body and leave dent in the ground. But this is delving pretty far into real life physics. It's perfectly fine to just go with simplified D&D rules for falling to keep gameplay going.

@@izuela7677 The problem is, she changed into a gold fish at the last second (interpreted from the phrase "last minute" @ 2:48 because a literal minute would be much more than 1000ft of falling), so the time between her hitting the water and her transformation is not nearly enough to slow her descent. Think of it like a bullet, dropping a bullet 1000ft wont do much, but firing it out of a gun makes it go way past its terminal velocity when it initially leaves the muzzle (fun fact: the bang from a gun is the bullet breaking the sound barrier)

@@sphinx1843 gravity doesnt care about size or mass. You're still falling at the same acceleration so you won't slow down even if you change mass or form...

He was lying though. Fall damage maxes out at 20d6 (120 damage max). Matt rolled WAY too many dice. Things don't just keep gaining velocity as they fall. There's terminal velocity in D&D. She would've probably lived.

@@Alassandros He wasn't lying. He made a mistake and forgot about the damage cap. But she also jumped off a 1000ft rocky cliff and turned into a goldfish so like, you have to punish that lmao

@@Alassandros at then end of the day DM makes the rules bud, what Matt says happens, happens

@@DerpEpicFace32onXbox He forgot about the damage cap and said on Twitter that she should have survived and it was a mistake on his part. HOWEVER, the entire fanbase collectively agrees that the rule can be ignored in favor of "you jumped off a cliff and hit rocks at terminal velocity"

@@Alassandros he wasn't really lying he just forgot about the cap and apparently so did everyone else. As long as it was fun.

100th like well earned

She should have been unrezzable.

lol, that would have been the perfect response.

Yeah but she'd already jumped lmao. So it's more like "You realise this was a terrible, terrible idea and begin to panic. Now what do you do?". Let players make stupid choices! She jumped before Matt intervened to even offer her a Wisdom check. Nobody asked if she COULD do that, she just did it. I mean she kind of did but like... she also didn't lmao.

@@aromaladyellie Oh I know. I just loooove using lingo to impress on players to let them know that they dun fucked up. :p

That's kinda what I do, but so long as they don't have below a 10 in wisdom/intelligence I just say they think this is probably not gonna go how they want it to go. And if they still wanna do it then they can't say I didn't warn them lol.

@@PointsofData Oh who said I do this BEFORE they do it? :p

Appropriate that I get pretty much the same result each time I search each term

“Goldfish Incident” is a name you use when Chi-Yu sweeps your team

No way around this one really. Hard to make an accidental suicide in a situation with no stakes whatsoever feel epic in any way.

Yeaahhhh Marisha sort of made it a lame but hilarious death herself.

You make bimbo choices there is very little a DM, even one as great as Matt, can do to make it more epic 😂😂😂 play bimbo games, win bimbo prizes

you see someone jump from a cliff and transform into a fish just to splatter like willy e coyote against the rocks, how can you even make that epic?

I mean, this one should have been obvious. Marisha is an idiot.

I don't know... the most recent episode is pretty up there, too. :P I think it was 105?

Just slipping in here a year later to say: Mollymauk knocked himself unconscious with his own magic and Fjord actively tried to drown himself just in case he wouldn't drown.

Not Quite Dovahkiin I think Molly(Talisen) either 1 didn’t realize it would kill him, or two it was a last ditch effort in a lost cause. Either way it was most likely a players mistake.

KCHgamer It's definitely the latter, it was a pretty desperate battle. Of course, later on we see just how much we all underestimated what the group had really been fighting against.

Late reply and all and I've no idea if this counts, But how about nearly starting an entire political crisis by accidentally burning down half a palace while trying to bake yourself a birthday cake. Absolute chaos that day!!!😂😂

Definitely up there with Laura's little "NO!" or Ashley telling Matt "It's only 7:15!!" in shock at the fact Keyleth is dead!

Wait wut

@@MasterOfNeutral Grog is a max level Barbarian-Fighter with over 260 hitpoints and resistance to bludgeoning damage. He'd have only taken roughly 180 hitpoints of damage. He's have been seriously fucked up from the fall but not dead

Julian Francisco thats only if he’s rage cliff jumping, regular grog still goes unconscious

@@Humorless_Wokescold -If we get super technical fall damage is its own type of damage, not bludgeoning-

@Xandroy You're right, my apologies. I got confused because most creatures have resistance or immunity against bludgeoning damage from weapons only, so falling damage isn't considered the same for them.

I love that too! Matt's like the master of keeping a straight face in nearly any situation and as soon as his wife accuses him of lying... *_"NO!_* YOU DID- I D-!"

If she hit as the fish, I would have let it. That thing is small enough to cut through the surface tension much more easily.

@@kagato23 1000 feet falling on water might as well be as falling on concrete. Dont think changing into a fish would change it.

@@Tenma2411 it’d change your terminal velocity. Much less mass = much less acceleration. Admittedly nothing in 5e rules actually accounts for this.

@@kagato23 That is not how physics works. The acceleration downwards on the surface of a large homogeneous mass (aka Planet) is more or less constant, e.g. 9.81m/s^2 on earth. Every falling object accelerates at this rate minus the deceleration of drag. At the start of a fall drag is near zero and it increases with the square of your velocity. You reach your terminal velocity, when your gravitational force equals the drag force on your body. A goldfish, by evolutionary design, is much more aerodynamic than a human falling stomach first, because it lives in a medium that is around three orders of magnitude more dense. Ergo much less drag. Without running any numbers i am confident to say, that a goldfish will most likely have a higher terminal velocity than a human. How well said goldfish would survive the impact is a question for a biologist.

@TheItsememario well anything smaller than a squirrel is likely to survive their terminal velocity, forgot how they proved it but squirrels can survive a fall from any height due to this and their incredible aerial maneuverability to guide their falls. It follows the square/cube law

Marisha’s logic still doesn’t stand because the water tension would have killed her anyway

@@shadophaxx2401 but the rules of the game wouldn't.

@@Goose_BW i hate this comment for multiple reasons

@@thegamingdeku List them.

Assumptions is the mother of all fuckups.

Oh, look at the guy. Of course he SCUBA dives. Every other weekend, when he's not skiing down K2 or something.

​@@falcychead8198 also, a 65ft SCUBA dive is easily doable on 1 tank. The generally accepted limit for amateur divers is 130ft on 1 tank

But he wasn’t talking about scuba diving, he said dive tanks for competitive diving. So the dive pools are at least 5 m (16.4 ft) deep to be safe to dives from the 10m platform. 3 of which would be about 50 ft (not quite 65), but the fast mental math is impressive. As is the knowing of the top of his head how deep diving pools are.

@@nytedragonsteel960 especially for someone who can’t do reverse math.

@@christiandeepe6414 But it was forward math so no problem for him

It is. It's called Tempting Fate.

I think that "you're lying" moment is a great one for explaining why so many fans develop a distaste for Marisha's attitude at the table. Most of the vitriol is totally unwarranted. I mean, people sending death threats? That's pathetic. Never-the-less, I would appreciate it if Marisha had reflected on these moments and just how unreasonable and, after several of these, how annoying it is to act like that.

@@django3422 Exactly this. There are those who hate on her constantly and relentlessly which is childish. But like, Moments like this, her behavior after the first Wind Walk against the two worms, and the entire Kraken episode.... Those are on her to grow from.

@@django3422 for this one the dislike for Miss Marisha at the table is a little more basic, through out just about all of C1 and much of C2 to the point where this one had to stop watching. Miss Marisha, Disrespected the Table is the only way it can say that. while being at the table is about having fun and being with old or new friends there is a certain amount of respect that must also be given and She quite often showed none of it. now this one would never dream of sending threats as that is indeed supremely childish, this one just stopped watching when it became too much for it (this one understands its comment is very late and apologizes but hopes that You are doing well and having a wonderful day)

@@lostpupper2632 In defence of Marisha, I don't believe it throughout all of C1. There are... maybe a half dozen moments that seem too much but that's it. As for C2, I don't think she has any such moments. And is she actually disrespecting the table? I'm not so sure, it just seems that way to us, with our detached perspective. I think there's only one time, the Wind Walker incident, where it seemed like Mercer gave her a little look of being unimpressed. And even then, we could be reading into it. I would somewhat walk back on my comment of three years ago. Since I made it, I've now DMed an ongoing campaign for two years. I am sure that there are many moments in our game when an outside audience might think one of my players is being unacceptably rude to me. But, in reality, they're one of my closest friends and we're having a great laugh together. Listen to any of the cast reminisce about the Keyfish incident. ALL of them, including both Mercer and Marisha, think it was hilarious and one of their favourite moments. So while I think we can point to those moments as a reason that some FANS don't warm to Marisha outside of the lazy accusations of sexism, we should never presume that the cast feels at all the same way about her antics.

@@django3422 this one has never presumed to say how the others at the table were thinking only how it felt. to this one she was disrespectful to the table, it does understand having also GM'd a 2+ campaign that that can be varied by who is observing and who is in the campaign. this one thanks You for Your reply and wishes you a magnificent day.

You see the entire cast instantly lose it at that raw description aha. Taliesin head desks, Sam and Marisha are holding laughter back as much as they can, Liam just REELS BACK in horror and probably some laughter, Laura and Ashley are just GONE and yeah Travis is cackling like a mad man.

Marisha really is not suited to RP a 22 WIS character... this is a shining example of it

I think only Sam and Liam are suited for characters with such high wisdom.

marisha seems to think that having a low cha means being a completely incompetent moron. I would have had her rolling constant wis checks whenever she tries to do something stupid so that i can say 'while you may think this is awesome marisha, your above average intelligence and wise beyond her years keyleth knows that this is a retarded thing to do' i completely agree with paradox. while she plays the socially awkward part well... she plays keyleth like her character has an int and wis combined of .... 4. It's not the character thats flawed here, it's definitely the player completely off the mark on her role playing.

Only Sam and Liam? I beg to differ, Travis qualifies for both very high WIS and INT as a player ... do you notice the genious moments of him working complex and profound insights into simple Grog? Its amazing, he´d probably co-run the party with Sam (for Wisdom) and Taliesin (Int) for strategizing if he were not intentionally playing a blunt character like grog.

I know she tries to justify it with her stats...but yall are aware that she could just, like, have that as the character and not be bound by the stats, lol

Vex to Tary: I used the coin. Tary: OH!.....oh.

What ep was this from again?

Now we wait for Laudna's. I don't care if it's out of character for Laudna. It should be tradition.

Well, like Taliesin said, it would have broken the surface tension. Your body just needs to be or be in the right shape.

@@Fairfieldfencer she can fly

Remy B Maybe Matt house rules falling damage to exceed 120, because, in my eyes, someone falling from 1500 feet onto rocks and only suffering 120 damage at most is a bit absurd, even for a fantasy game.

@Remy B Yes, but it makes no sense to me to have a damage cap on falling damage. I know it's fantasy,but if your character jumps from lets say 1000000 feet( yes I'm being intentionally ridiculous here, to show how weird the cap is) and survives it, then what's to point.

@Remy B The basic rule for fall damage caps at 20d6 which translates to 200ft of falling. Generally speaking, human's don't reach terminal velocity until they have fallen 1500ft. Therefore the fall damage cap is not at all connected to actual human terminal velocity and would would need to be increased to 150d6 to be so. Weird right? Now you could argue that not every race in dnd has the same physical properties but that's a separate discussion from the general rule for fall damage.

7:24 you're welcome

6:20 travis is pricless

and he was the first to kinda suggest the idea too

Narrator: It was not fine.

Up there with Ashley going "It's only 7:15!!" to Matt. XDXDXDXDXDXDXDXD

@Remy B The cap makes no sense tho. 20d6( that's like 80 damage if rolled on the higher side) that nothing at higher levels. Level 4 barbarian can probably survive that while raging. So at lvl 4 you could be jumping from 100000+ feet in the air and surviving it. Dunno about you but that would break the suspension of disbelief for me.

@Remy B I get your point about it being a game and that most aspects of the fighting would translate poorly into RL,however there are just some principles in games that, when broken just break the game, falling cap being one of them IMO. Pretty much every RPG game I can think of(excluding the ones that ignore falling altogether) has a cap on falling damage(but the other way around, so if you go over the cap you just die). It would be a different ballgame if there was no way to mitigate falling, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate or flat out eliminate fall damage so I feel like the game should reflect that. just keeps the d6 but don't cap the maximum amount, that way higher level characters can survive fantasy like falls but still have a limit( the same way you can survive fantasy like hits from swords and spells and such, but only to a certain point). And about the RL comparison, yes there is a cap, but when you reach it and fall to the ground you die.

@Remy B Yes, that's why I said leave the d6 but remove the cap, that way you can still do ridiculous jumps at higher hp values and survive. That way it's still fantasy-like but there is a limit.

@Remy B Also lvl 4 barbarian is superhuman yes, but nowhere near The Hulk, cmon now. Lvl 4 barbarian is just your average Conan the barbarian.

@Remy B but the cap is reached by falling from a lot higher than 200 feet. So the cap should be higher (around 100 or 150 d6)

she said Was not Wasn't

@@mavoc3094 That just makes it worse.

-Just you and me sis -No wait what if she’s dead -Yep! That’s Vax finally giving the fuck up 🤣

Though Sam's foresight to give Vex the revivify coin was a bit godly.

Couldn’t have said it better myself…also the sheer amount of writing and work for something like that on a weekly show would be LUDICROUS.

“I lived without knowing who I was for decades and I still remember never doing something so stupid... but thank the gifs for your friends or I wouldn’t have you now” It’s Vilya, she wouldn’t stay mad with Keyleth for long I bet.

​@@dubbingsyncthe gifs were pretty mad about this

omg this makes it so much better in my head

My players tried to argue that when they used that spell to bring a dead apprentice mage that a Chuul bisected. I argued that fixing severed limbs is what the higher level regenerate spell does. So for one round that poor mage revives and screams at the sight of his lower body next to him.... And then since NO ONE in the party provided an adequate alternate target for the Chuul... It killed him again. Honestly I felt really, really bad for that NPC.

Arguably, after that impact, Keyleth would have been missing many parts. People tend to splat and pop. I think that was Mercer being merciful.

@@django3422 To be fair if it was my ruling I likely would have had her in one piece only because she was transformed. The way I saw it, the Goldfish took the actual smack, and she herself took the rest of the damage as just basic carryover. Had she not been transformed at the time, 100% parts would be missing. I view it like falling off a cliff in a barrel. You're still dead as shit, the barrel just keeps all your parts together.

@@pred6 That doesnt really make sense though. You fall off a cliff in a barrel you will still be in shambles after the barrel breaks on impact then you break from impact transfering to you. If you recieve that much physical damage that it kills you how does it not make your body a jumbled mess because if the force doesnt transfer to your body how do you die. Mostly I blame 5e shapeshifting rules they are just illogical to begin with in regards to damage

Omg, yes! 🤣👏🏼

They just want any excuse to attack Marisha