Another point in favour of the throwing knife is that it compensates for the drawback of weapons with a long drawtime. If you're using a bolter or a flamer, throwing knives might as well be mandatory just to be able to quickly deal with specialists.
bolter+flamer gets another major advantage with throwing knives: animation cancelling the weapon swap. you're meleeing whatever, see a wave of specials, line up a headshot on your reticle, swap+throw, let it rip on the rest.
I was about to comment the same thing. Pretty good prairie dog impression tbh. Really makes his brash delivery in this seem goofy and try hard. Regardless, I agree with a lot of what he says, so 🤷
Understood. Time to ignore this entirely, take Loner, rush ahead ("flanking gunners") and die immediately, then leave the game so the bot can help the team!
An important note about blades of faith is that currently they are affected by certain weapon blessings and perks on your equipped weapon, and can sometimes proc those blessings too. This is the case with uncanny strike on the combat blade, you can go from doing 90 damage on a crusher headshot to 1800 damage with max stacks, build stacks by repeatedly chucking knives at their head, and that damage can be increased by a +25% carapace perk. I did test this before posting and I'm sorry if you mentioned this later I haven't finished watching the video and I have to go sleep.
I havent watched the video all the way through, so i might have to come back and edit this, but i feel like your thinking of until death and holy revenant wrong. I agree with you that its not some god tier clutch perk, but the reason i think its good is that preventing a down just a really good "support" mechanic. If you do go down (i.e. not using until death), youre forcing your team to try to get you back up and taking another player entirely out of the fight to do it, versus just preventing the down entirely and keeping all 4 players in the action. I agree that its going to be much less good as you start playing with better players, but especially for pubs where there are mouth breathers that will try to stick a revive with 4 crushers standing on you, i certainly think it has a place. Youre also not wrong about the "just play better" bit, but its just a nice insurance policy to have in pubs
And Fatshark games being notoriously inconsistent and at times downright broken it's a VERY nice little safety net for that *occasional, if you're good enough* instance of total dogshit.
I also don't believe you are wasting too many nodes when taking until death, you can still take dualist and then just take until death and holy revenant on the right so you can skip desperation. Also, you can make the argument that holy revenant is a node that essentially gives you 25% maximum health which is basically 2 and a half nodes or a whole blessing.
Thank you so much, I started playing recently and have realized the err of my ways. My friends told me incorrect information and youve made my experience much better. I love the analysis and no shits given attitude.
this in-dept guides are pretty useful, I would like to see how a min-maxer like you would work different builds like "spam relic" with blazing piety crits, same with the other classes and their skills.
Thanks for explaining this in a way that a non-math person who's new to min-maxing can understand. Can you please put out some builds reflecting your claims? Like Zealot Eviscerator, knife, hammer and Psyker gun and various staffs? That would be huge.
Someone else probably pointed this out, but "Thy wrath be swift" affects gunners and shooters too. You don't get stunned by anything. Still might not be best if you are good at slide running and just don't get shot, but sometimes you get caught in a bad position and it enables you to leave it.
So for a Fury of the faithful build, would it make more sense to pick the Momentum stacks over Blazing Piety, or the other way around? If i just go straight for the necessities, and then fill out the Momentum keystone nodes, I can't quite get Invocation of Death, but I guess I could shake off Retributor's stance?
Lately for zealot I've been using the Rashad Mk II Combat Axe With Decapitator and Brutal Momentum. It really is great for clearing hoards and due ot its nature it builds up insane damage that can be cashed in with momentum, Dash and Scourge on an enemy namely Maulers and Crushers
Agree with you about until death. It's best used with a martyrdom build I find where there's increased risk of going down because of being intentionally on low health with wound stacking on the build. But I find that when things go south you rarely have this save you. Claystetics loves shield of contempt and like yourself I rarely see it making a difference, it also only procs on health damage hits anyways so at best it can absorb a sniper hit.
Never before have I seen a breakdown or tierlist where there are so many excellent points made... mixed with some of the strangest takes I've ever heard... Incendiary Grenades aren't good because you expect them to kill everything outright, they're good because they kill almost everything that doesn't have armor without regard for mass and leaves everything else (except Crushers) low enough that they're easy to deal with. Basically like the Coruscation staff but less broken or like having a pocket flamethrower without the downside of needing to take the flamethrower. I knew Duelist was good but I honestly hadn't considered that the buffs stacked with one another. Until Death isn't typically good in the sense that you're going to clutch and be the hero that saves your team, but it's very useful at stopping you from going down in a bad spot. Most wipes in my games start with one player going down and then other players dying in a stupid attempt to save them, so the ability to prevent that does have value. Very good points about Unremitting and Shield of Contempt. Mobility is undervalued and most people seem to assume the DR is given to everyone in coherency (which would be kind of nuts). I personally really like Dance of Death because it basically eliminates spread and recoil as mechanics even when firing from the hip since you're pretty much dodging attacks all the time. Thy Wrath be Swift is good because it actually works on all damage meaning that something like having your toughness broken by a gunner wall, which is a death sentence on most classes, can often be more of a brief inconvenience on zealot because you can actually move to take cover rather than getting stunned into oblivion. I still feel like any situation where Ambuscade could excel in is too niche to really build around it. Yeah I might be able to destroy a Beast of Nurgle or ogryn "gameplay squad" by combining it with Raking Fire, but the number of times I can actually imagine that playing out without an enemy turning around or something else happening to spoil the moment isn't very high. That style of using Shroudfield honestly seems super creative and effective, very appealing overall. Kinda with they'd buff the left path of Blazing Piety a bit. It isn't bad as-is, but it really just can't compete with the crazy benefits of the right path.
"Thy Wrath be Swift is good because it actually works on all damage meaning that something like having your toughness broken by a gunner wall, which is a death sentence on most classes, can often be more of a brief inconvenience on zealot because you can actually move to take cover rather than getting stunned into oblivion." read the node this is not intended. i refuse to rate a node on effects it shouldnt have. it very clearly says MELEE ATTACK STUNS. if it did work like this and said that it worked like that i would call it a god tier node
What? The hill im dying on is things should work and do what they say. How is that controversial. Also big difference between. Something having un listed effects. And something straight up doing the opposite of what its listed to do on top of what it does.
@@TannerLindberg You can throw a fit all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that you're not rating the node based on what it *actually does*. I can't fathom taking the time to make a video nearly an hour long breaking down every major node, but also intentionally choosing to misrepresent the effect of a node because you don't think it should work the way that it does. Several times in *this video* you took time to point out that the actual effect of nodes were actually worse than the description implied, but I guess it doesn't go the other way around. Every time Disrupt Destiny comes up, you mention that you don't actually need to kill anything to keep your stacks up even though nothing in the description implies that it's an intended behavior. This is fine though because *obviously* refreshing the duration on an extremely impactful bonus on hit versus on kill is an "un listed effect" and completely fine whereas *clearly* an effect procing on melee damage and ranged damage instead of just melee damage is no-good-very-bad and not okay to even mention... The most ironic thing is, anyone who's seen a handful of your videos knows damn well that if you'd played a match with some rando scrub who was bad that the game the day before this video was made, and that rando complained a bunch about how useless the node is because they only read the description and didn't know what it actually did, there would *almost certainly* be a segment of the video dedicated to how insanely good the node is and how stupid they were for not understanding that.
@@MrLamorso I suspect the reason why Tanner refuses to pick talents that do things contradictory to the explicit description, as opposed to talents with vague descriptions with more complex mechanics, is because Fatshark are far more likely to 'fix' those talents and ruin a cornerstone of your build. The examples you gave, it's more likely that "disrupt destiny"'s leniency with kills is a quality of life feature to reduce frustration and is likely to stay the same. "Whereas Thy Wrath be Swift" applying to all damage and not just Melee Damage is far more likely to be a mess-up with coding and will be patched out. The reason why one would pick 'this hill to die on' is you want your videos to be as relevant for as long as possible, especially when you delve as deep as he does in this video here. You're allowed to make use of these mechanics, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a video guide to want to avoid these potential pitfalls.
@@TannerLindbergsomeone looked into the code and They Wrath be swift literally has stun immune ranged and melee listed in the attribute name. Seems like it's always been intended to have this effect. Fatshark always has terrible text descriptions of talents and blessings.
I run 3 +3 stamina curious with 4 abilty 12 stamina regen 1 block and 2 sprint eff works very well with an mk xv eviscerator thanks for the guide i changed away from dance of death and thy wrath be swift based on your suggestion and tacked on disdain retributors stance instead now focused mostly momentum with fury of the faithful.
I'm too used to fury not to run it but I'll try all the other stuff. Including switching to stamina curios instead of my wound curios. :) Thanks! What a great video, especially since FS didn't add real explanations how some of the keystones really work. Especially momentum. As I move and dodge all the time in combat it's perfect for my playstyle. Probably. I'll give it a try.
1:12 "and you dont need to use a revolver" - what do you recommend to use instead of a revolver in that case? just a columnus for boss damage or whatever? i know im not good enough to make full use of it but i use them anyways since i actually remember to use them (unlike the fire grenades)
I wish the nodes were mapped in a way that the first section would all converge into a single node that would lead to all three grenade types so stun nades would be accessible without gimping yourself
I waited the whole video for you to tell me why martyrdom is bad and you just ended up talking about how it used to not work with two handers, and the toughness subnode. Bruh
I play martyrdom zealot but im not that good of a zealot and i definitely dont have beastly movement. I wish we had custom controls on xbox so we could really go in and change things but it is what it is. Playing back button dodge my slide is bound to my right stick which is super weird but if u dont play that way u have dodge and jump on the same button which is also incredibly stupid. I cant wait to watch this video though lots of useful zealot info incoming.
7:52 I find bleed for the emperor useful sometimes, because with it you can take a mauler/crusher overhead without going down. Edit: 10:42 I find it weird that even with 50+15 percent toughness dmr you still can't take a overhead
Crusher and Mauler overheads not only bypass blocking, but iirc they also have a mechanic where they bypass toughness if they break toughness. Which means all the toughness DR in the world will not reduce the damage from a Crusher bonk, if it breaks your toughness. Since they deal such ridiculously high damage, this is pretty much impossible, so the only DR that affects Crusher bonks is stuff like Bleed For The Emperor, which is DR for health damage, not toughness.
Nah, nah. Pious Cut-Throat + Invocation of Death is mandatory if you're worth shit as a knife/eviscerator user. People assume 'backstabbing' is some sort of real condition you have to meet, failing to realise like 30% of the shit you kill is facing away from you to begin with, and that's without even trying. This works on trash mobs for god's sake, it's fucking broken. 3 enemies looking away from you hitting someone else, and if you kill them that's... what? 35-40% cooldown gone (because of diminishing returns, as it's off your CURRENT CD, not total CD)? Even if you just shove and side-step a horde, you'll get backstab kills immediately. Now add in the probable 2-4 crits you got for another 3-6s. If you think ultimates are so important, then having shroudfield on quite literally a 2-5s cooldown as long as you're in combat is the most broken shit zealot's got. If you play it properly, which isn't hard at all, shroudfield shouldn't even LOOK like it's on cooldown. Its cooldown is so low that you can almost spam it to get the +40% toughness over 5s and nigh-permanent +20% damage reduction, which is stacking with the +50% damage reduction on crits. You actually SHOULD NEVER LOSE A MATCH if you have these two talents and shroudfield, because it should always be available to revive teammates in any capacity, or to even use the 6s of stealth to speedrun to where you can revive them, pausing in-between to get it off CD in mere moments. Try this in practice, I promise you, please. I swear. Those two TOGETHER make shroudfield almost permanently off CD. Fatshark will surely (lol) nerf it so you can only pick one of these three, or that pious cut-throat only works on elites/specialists. But so as long as it works on ANY enemy, it RUINS the balance of the game when paired with Invocation of Death. P.S. Because you can spam shroudfield so much, you can even use it to simply enter invisibility, have enemies turn around as they change aggro, then break out of it to cleave across their backs with the extra damage + crits and almost immediately re-enter it. I am NOT kidding, Tanner, I will NOT have this be considered less than turbo-sweat-meta.
Hey, do you know how the diminishing returns on toughness damage reduction works? I'm guessing its a logarithmic curve, but I'm also wondering what the sweet spot for damage reduction is.
I believe it's multiplicative, so any new damage reduction is reduced by the amount of damage reduction you already have. So if you have 20% damage reduction and add another 20%, that's only going to be a total of 36%. If you have 50% and add another 50%, that's only going to be a total of 75%. I could be wrong though, I haven't actually read that anywhere written by fatshark or by someone who mined the code or anything.
@@bonehed1 Martyrdom can provide a 48% damage boost and 24% attack speed boost with 6 missing wounds Vs up to 20% damage/attack speed boost which isn't consistent
It just makes you realize how bs most channels are and how much they really dont know what theyre talking about. Ive never seen anyone break down every single skill in this game.
It can be a real pain since Tanner doesn't really seem to do build guides and I process info a lot better when I can see all the parts of a build functioning together as a whole mechanism. Sadly, most of the people doing build guides on the 'tube don't really know what they're talking about and usually spout the same clickbait nonsense. If there's anyone you know who does do good build guides, please point me their way, because Tanner's really helpful but the way he presents info isn't what I'm looking for.
@@testname6624cash crop does great ones for ogryn. Reginald is the zealot guy, and even more specifically the chain axe guy. Ryken I’d say makes good builds for a variety of characters, but rn he’s into helldivers. Hell they might actually all be playing that rn. Idk of any particular psyker or vet mains, but if you want a build for a specific character or weapon, you can watch Telopots or chocoB use it and copy their build if you like what you see. If nothing else it’s a decent reference, and they’re both great players.
6:47 in and i think i understand now why Zealots do so much damage to bosses in my games. Even when i'm going gun psyker with you're setup and getting loads of time on target with the Columbusi still get out damaged by that damned Zealot!
Shroud field is the best ult in the game **if you are good* There we go, fixed it for you Most of the time, i see some nerd go stealth, then everything they were distracting shoots the team instead. And often it will come from wierd angles i cant react to because the people whonrun it are always trying some wierd mlg flanking maneuver so the enemies that spawn near them are in super awkward spots
Thoughts on those builds that one shot demon hosts and stuff with hammer (genuinely wondering if they are stupid) (they usually use martyrdom so I’d only assume ye)
They aren’t stupid, they just aren’t very viable and they are extremely situational. I have used it to one shot bosses and it’s extremely satisfying but when it misses, which will happen often, it can be devastating. You just gotta pop the shroud at the exact right moment
I agree with pretty much all his points, but one thing stood out to me: does he not know that Thy Wrath be Swift is good not because of the melee stun prevention, but because it's bugged so it prevents bullets from pushing you back? like it literally negates all push from all shooters in the game. It's taken because a lot of times the zealot charge gets interrupted because of bullets. Even if you're running knife what you tend to do is push up to shooters to stop them from shooting your team, and sometimes you might get clipped by a few if you don't slide dodge perfectly, and this prevents you from getting stunlocked in the open if that happens.
@@TannerLindberg It's been bugged like this since the release of the game even before the skill tree overhaul, you mentioned that it's bad because you don't want to get hit in melee anyway and that's true, but why not even mention this interaction even though the video focuses heavily on the meta? Everyone who uses it use it because of the bugged interaction, if it didn't have the bug (unchanged since game release) then yea it would be terrible
@@leubzo1436 Yeah at this point I'm not even sure if it is a bug since it has been this way since release. Maybe just a badly written description of the skill.
Why did the heavy attack builds for ogryn feel like a noob trap if its half the talents in the ogryn tree that arent gunner? It feels so bad as compared to just regular attacking.
I posted on the subreddit about the martyrdom zealot and how some idiot used a health stim with like 7 wounds. I swear I remember it healed one wound but others claimed it heals 25% whichever is greater. So I think your point about wounds might be wrong about the healing 30 health. I'm fully in agreement though and people should just try to do better at the game and not go down.
17:10 ONCE just ONCE in my 500 hours career LOL. And i was blasting the heretics away while im listening sabaton everybody died cept me and i was so close to the end i was literally begging my ass off to the emperor to save my soul while trying to fight with a plague ogryn and SOMEHOW he flung me to the literally next to the plane and while i was flying i saw the untill death proc with 1 hp and escaped.
24:20 ah this bit made me laugh cos you literally got caught out but not having this that one time on that really good solo run you uploaded. But yeah you are right. It happens so rarely even if you are bad at the game like me its not worth it.
Second wind was meh until i realized it proc on ranged attacks as well, wtf! (might still be meh) ALSO as a veteran shouter yeah the first poxburster / sniper shot wont damage you but the second one will XD because its two different damage hits
Double dipping with 20+ crit seems like over kill with Piety. It will fill the gaps of down time but i feel shroud is a better pair for that particular dagger set up.
wouldn't Thy Wrath Be Swift have saved your true solo run a few weeks back? Also, it works on ranged attacks for now making it decent until that's patched.
@@TannerLindberg completely agree, it's in a terrible spot but it's not the worst pick on the board. If someone is already committed to full right side of the tree I would pick it up.
I swicthed out until death and holy revenant, and holy piety for momentum. Also added a bunch of curios with sprinting/block efficiency. I think I need to get used to having less of a safety net to rely on and take too many risks though. But I went back to piety for crits and my trusted MVIII BAC for mid to close range shooting. Works better for me. @@TannerLindberg
The Master's Retribution is only good when you fuck up that one dog dodge and it saves your ass, but that's not really reliable and the opportunity cost is hard to justify next to the crit CDR. Martyr's Purpose isn't great, but its basically a get out of jail free card for pug players who took the book so I don't mind people who take it. Their fuckup means a free invuln for me to fix the problem that they wouldn't be fixing either way.
There is no equal to your assessment and analysis anywhere online. Would you be willing to provide your own builds for the zealot and veteran as well as a demonstrations on runs?
Yes, but so is your teammate, if you haven't run far away from your team and they aren't all dead. Also, most of this video is entirely based around the assumption that you are already good at the game, like really good, the kind of people who think Auric Damnation is casual mode and the only valid difficulty is Auric Maelstrom. People on that level almost never get dogs on them, so this is a useless talent for them. This is the same reasoning he uses for Until Death, if your whole team got downed, and you also would have gotten downed, the single clutch save from Until Death or Master's Retribution is probably not going to get you far enough to make it further in the map. Master's retribution is only useful in a very specific situation, that is, when you are on a difficulty where you aren't good enough to carry solo, and your whole team is significantly worse than you. In that specific situation, Master's Retribution can save you from that one dog that jumps out of the fire from 2 flamers and a bomber while you're fighting 2 ragers and 3 maulers on top of a horde of poxwalkers. But in general? It's not a very good talent, compared to other talents you could take instead. Especially since there's theoretically an equal chance that it's a trapper that spawned instead of a dog, and then this talent is completely dead.
@@evanhuizenga8626 " People on that level almost never get dogs on them" I am at this level, and occasionally a dog will still get on you. It also happens to the OP in the video, as he's posted it before. Dogs can do weird cheap things sometimes. This skill is handy for those moments.
@@kgamer121 Correct, which is why I said "almost never", and not "never". I never denied that in an extremely specific and unlikely circumstance, this talent is useful. But that doesn't make it good, because you are sacrificing many other much more generally useful talents that could be useful many times per game, for one that might be marginally useful once every 5 games at best. And if you take into account having teammates to save you, that changes it to being useful maybe once every 20-25 games if I'm being generous.
I always run one +1 wound curio to get all characters to 3 wounds. Ogryn having 3 by default doesn't need it, for the simple reason of as *you, yourself have said* play enough Auric and you see teammates might not be that helpful. In the case you MIGHT go down, be it something unfortunate or a Fatshark game being well, that.. you're afforded a get out of jail free card. Cause SO MANY TIMES have I seen two wound zealots, veterans and so goddamn often psykers go down once, revived but now one more and they're do- oh he's dead. See where I'm coming from? It's not a bad call to run a singular +1 wound curio if I'm honest but an entire talent for +2 now that's too much.
if you go down more than twice honestly in like 5 minutes you really played poorly. and i dont buy into the whole fatshark game jank bad or what ever if you died 99.9999999% of the time its on you you didnt get screwed
Its kind of wild people dont understand that if youre playing martyrdom zealot you basically have psyker levels of health and thats why they keep going down. You can like 300 health on a zealot but they would rather have 200 and go down 7 times a match.
the challenge is to not go down and take advantage of the insane melee damage buff. The extra wounds is only there as a fail safe. Most of the martyrdom players you see dont know how to play it.
@@jlstudio1050 yeah thats my point. Wounds in general are bad but I still see tons of players running 2 3 wounds and I dont get it. Youre only telling the rest of your team you constantly go down and I dont ever see anyone running wounds and not play terribly. It doesnt matter the character if youre running more then one wound you are usually terrible. I had a vet in my game the other day with 5 wounds and he went down atleast 10X in one match. Also its more so indicative of people wanting more resources and getting funneled into damnation but they arent ready for it but they play anyway and we have to carry them. I dont blame people for wanting more resources but i was playing hi shock malice and heresy before i went to damnation and i also had legendary gear on all my characters before jumping to damnation. The problem is noone else is learning the game before they do that. Wounds are an oxymoron in this game and if you use them youre also healing less from Med stims but the average player doesnt realize that either. When I med stim on my ogryn i heal like 200 health, when a vet with 5 wounds uses a med stim hes only healing like 30 health or something stupid like that. There are far too many people playing this game who have no clue how to build, how to play, how to anything. Im still playing with vets running the revive voice of command node lol
So this video shows me two things. I built my chainaxe build is completely wrong, and I need to figure out the chainaxe. I like your videos btw, and it's because you SHOW and compare to other nodes.
Its Funny just today i got blamed for how bad my Build is even if i had the same conclusions >.> but hey it was from someone who didnt even tried to hit Weakspots
"if you are the one playing Zealot in pug games you are the one usually being carried. If you use the scoreboard mod you know what I'm taking about" this is sadly the truth 😵💫
Toughness regen is probably one of the most useless stats in the game; consiering theres so many ways to regen toughness (killing + ults that regen from killing) its only worth it on very niche builds.
you think true robot asian is bad ? dude this guy said he uses the combat shotgun to conter sniping ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Yw0Ri8ihC24.html
Wait you said the heavy eviscerator is garbage? Wut? Man I need more of them tier list videos. Standing before gods demanding an explanation for this horseshit lul.
"a otherwise garbage weapon" yeah a grey evis not supported by the talent tree is pretty garbage. its sooooooooo slow. its on the zealot for a reason lol
