@@DragBoss351Clevelandfrom my understanding, back in the day wrnie elliot built Bud Moore a 331 inch bullet that would fly. My great uncles built the clevelands for BME from the 70s-90s
I work in Mooresville, NC which is where alot of NASCAR teams are based. I heard from a very reliable source that before 1988 there was no block deck height rule for the small blocks, only 355ci limit. So I was told Ernie Elliot built 8.2 deck Boss 302 blocks stroked to 355ci with the A3's. That was there HP advantage over everyone else. Lighter rotating assembly, shorter intake runners, shorter pushrods. Made more power than a 9.2 deck 355ci engine.
'82....the year Ford got back In the game, and got performance back into prominance ! Big things were coming for the 2 B's, Bob and Bill. The big thing for Bob was 500ci of Big Bad Boss; the big thing for Bill was SPEED, and lot's of it ! And for the street....the big thing was a Mustang that had been pumped up to an awe inspiring 157 hp; oh well, that big thing would take a little longer, lol !!
Hey Tim, long time between drinks. I have an embarrassing amount of FMS high port heads and intakes. Liked the video. One comment I'd make is don't assume all variations you see are/were done by Ford. The cup teams and fair haired children got what they wanted, and many times, they got partially machined castings so they could apply their own (secrets) knowledge to given features, like combustion chambers and exhaust port shapes for example. So it wasn't just the heads that were part numbered as unmachined that found their way to race teams with unmachined features. Best, Kelly
Good to hear from you Kelly. Not sure why I like all this old stuff. Grows on you. But yes, some of these could be modified for sure, but I did not know is the C3 was in production in 1984. Funny how Ford made things reusing numbers and such. I can’t wait to get a mule done so I can mess with these and test what I have. Thanks for watching, always great to have you on. Do you still have your Pantera?
Good information Tim. They were sure advanced in cylinder head technology back in the day. You worked hard putting this together. Thanks again. Have a great day.
I remember FMS/SVO being in business starting in 1981. Pretty big deal in Super Ford magazine and the few others that would even mention a bad word like FoMoCo on their printed pages. The very next year ('82), the foxbody Mustang GT (with a wee bit more power) and factory aluminum Boss/Cleveland head were on the scene, along with a lot of other serious parts, and the second muscle car era had started. The heads were way beyond my pay grade back then, but as the years went by, the trickle down effect made some dreams eventually come true for some of us. Thanks to FMS and the fox body cars, for one extended period of time there were more ads and actual parts for Ford products than for Chevy stuff, and at competitive if not better prices. Best years of the lives of Ford biased gearheads from '82 to not that long ago.
Right on my friend. I graduated high school in 83 and remember it well. It was my dream to have a set of A3 heads. I remember you could get parts so cheap. Intakes for like 200-300 bucks. Heads were like 600 each. Those were the days, whatever happened to our country.
Hi Tim! Very good! Yes, there were a couple of 302 based NASCAR engines, the one I knew of was built by Robert Yates, for restrictor plate racing. The bore was about 4.08, and the stroke 3.25 inches. The car was very fast, for a restrictor plate car, and NASCAR made it illegal, right after. The C302 head with the more rounded area around the spark plug side is much like Larry Widmer's "soft burn" chamber that got a lot of coverage in the media in the mid 80's. Larry was doing consulting on engine projects, Cleveland, and Boss 429.
Yes that sound right from what I have been hearing. Love that stuff. Yes I have talked to Larry before, may need to get him on too. I have that article, the soft one, I think it is.
@@DragBoss351Cleveland… Having Larry Widmer as a guest on DBG would be quite interesting. Hopefully he could provide some important insight into the Cleveland high-port iron head conversion set with the matching Scorpion intake that I have and still plan on using very soon. They were produced by his Endyn Incorporated shop way back in October of 1982 about the same time those awesome Motorsport Aluminum Cleveland Heads became available 🏁.
Tim, you literally just helped me figure out what heads I bought months ago. One of the previous owners ground the part numbers down, but a lot of people told me I had c302b heads, including Jimmy huff. The only thing is, my valves don't cant, both int. And exh go straight
Sounds like a Yates head. The reason for the lack of canting the valves, was too reduce the size of the valve relief, so that they could move the top ring up, on the piston. This reduced the crevice volume, around the top ring, and actually burned more of the fuel, giving a 2 to 4 more laps on a tank of gas. A critical point, as the GM cars typically were better mileage, and could get away with one less pit stop, in a long race with few caution flags.
I loved my Clevelands and look forward to your videos immensely. If I have the opportunity to build another, I will use the info you have given all of us and build one bad ass Cleveland! Thank Tim!
I always stay until the end because there’s always something new to learn on DBG ! This was another excellent presentation, Tim. I had almost forgotten the important facts pertaining to the different exhaust port bolt hole spacing on the various Motorsport heads. Everything you do is greatly appreciated, my friend 🏁.
Thanks Daniel. Glad I could keep your expectations high. Working hard to keep the history going. Yes, need to know that. I have had to have some changes to match the earlier 2.77 pattern.
I do believe Ford Motorsports was quite a bit ahead of the game once they came out with the first aluminum A3 heads. Chevy had nothing that compared. The very best aftermarket Chevy heads could not flow the amount of CFMs that these did. And once the engineers at Ford Motorsports began playing with various port shapes, sizes, and hights....as well as chamber shapes and valve sizes and angles, all within the boundries of the physical cylinder head size, they were capable of making much more poiwer than an equally built Chevy small block. By the time the Yates heads arrived on the scene, NASCAR had to allow Chevy to have their SB2 heads, just so they could be competitive with the Fords.
That’s what I’m talking about. Your right no Chevy head could compare. Those A3 could have the potential for 1000hp with single four, with right size bore.
I can add a little to the story, if I may. During the 1988, thru 1991, NASCAR, officials found welded cylinder heads, particularly on one Chevy. The story related to me, and I found later corroborated by "Stock Car Racing" magazine. This particular feud between Mr. Hendrick, and Childress, centered on cylinder heads. As the Charlotte racing community is pretty close, a cylinder head specialist, could not understand how a certain black Chevy, could always seem to outrun Mr. Hendrick's Chevy. In a local establishment he had a discussion going with another person at the bar. The discussion turned to racing, and how that black Chevy out ran the Hendrick Chevy. Well it turns out the man, was doing the cylinder heads for that black Chevy, and he agreed too do a pair for our cylinder head specialist. The heads were welded, and the valves were moved, some, different chambers, usual stuff ! Then Mr. Hendrick had an engine built with these newly procured heads, and entered the next race. Lo and behold, Mr. Hendricks Chevy was as quick as that black Chevy. Mr. Childress protested, and found that, yep ,Mr. Hendrick had caught on, to his game. Then NASCAR, looking pretty bad, overlooking that fact that their own rule book stated, no welding, on cylinder heads, had to eat crow. The interested parties had a meeting, and all were allowed to submit 1 new cylinder head design for the 1992 season. All GM cars ran the same head, all Ford's, got to use the first Yates head. Robert Yates definitely had a better idea. The GM teams complained, and were allowed to change their design several times, resulting finally in the SB2.2 around 2000. Ford's were required too stay with the original version Yates head, until the D3 head was allowed around 2005. The last real Cleveland head before the FR9 engine.
@@Bbbbad724 Yes, I have too agree, I don't watch NASCAR. The NASCAR officials gradually took away the ability of mechanics, to set the cars up the way THEY wanted. Everything had a specification , weight of connecting rods, pistons, crankshaft, valve size, everything. Then you had to run the tires, they gave you, and run them in the position, they told you to run them. Just a few examples, but for me, like you, it was "what's the point". NASCAR wanted too control it all, and that is what they ended up doing.
Excellent job Tim!! The early Ford aluminum headed monster, great subject. Between the heads and intakes the casting numbers tell many different stories. I came into a set of C3L's a few years ago for a '35 Tudor Sedan project and had no idea what I was in for. I was after the bigger combustion chambers. The Intakes that fit are especially confusing, same casting numbers, different intakes. They are on a D2 4 bolt block I've had for years.
Great stuff once again!! I have been using and racing 351c stuff sense the early 90s !! Without fail I always learn something new watching your channel. Great job!! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!! 🇺🇸
Love your Cleveland engine knowledge Tim. Love your videos. Love the Cougar. Truly a dream build if I could ever build one for myself. Do you think you could also do a rundown of the aftermarket Cleveland heads? Skip any Chinese made heads but just any of the heads that matter.
C3 heads.. They opened up the combustion chamber to improve swirl. The velocity of the narrow port too. Bringing the power band on sooner. More low end torque. The magic of port efficiency and swirl.
Jim - The T-Birds from the 1980’s Absolutely one of the neatest looking cars for ever built:) Better looking car than the Mustang. A little longer wheelbase too:)
Had no idea there had been this many versions of Cleveland heads made for racing. I'm still trying to decide which direction to go with my 351C 2V I drive on the street. Thought of keeping the 2V heads and going with intake, four barrel carb, and mild cam, but not sure if I would be wasting my time with the low compression open chamber heads. Want good power and torque for the street. Don't really want to spend a ton of money on aluminum heads. On the plus side, I can run regular gas with the low compression. Would like to keep double digit fuel mileage for cruising. Hmmm...
Need to figure out your goal and what requirements needed and build accordingly. That engine will cook on the street with right cam, headers, gears. You may surprise yourself.
@@DragBoss351Cleveland Well, 300hp to 400hp and good torque would be ideal. Car currently has a 2.75 rear gear, thinking of going up to a 3.50. I know the Cleveland has loads of potential, was just wondering if it would perform well with only 8:1 compression. Thanks.
In 80 Len wood told ford that they were out of good Cleveland blocks they were using astr blocks but they were still not working so ford got the old Cleveland mold out and mad blocks and heads
Ernie Elliott can make insane power no doubt but in the mid 80’s NASCAR didn’t have a tread width minimum, so Bills car was up to 7 inches narrower than Earnhardts on the big tracks. Smaller car equals less drag. Ernie could really make a car drive good on the straightaway.
Hey Tim, my 74 Gran Torino has the stock 351 2V heads. Do they have any potential to make power like 350hp? Always wondered about them. Great video! Take care buddy 👍👍👍
@@DragBoss351Cleveland For sure, It has a 9 inch with 3.00 gears I believe. It’s beautiful on the highway but has no pick up. Big heavy girl but very comfy😂👍
@@MrWill73 … The 2 barrel Cleveland heads have better flow potential than iron Windsor heads and SBC heads in stock trim. Contact a reputable cam grinder that’s familiar with Cleveland requirements and get a hydraulic roller cam setup with matching valve springs. The heads need stainless steel valves and single groove retainers for reliability. An aftermarket dual plane aluminum intake manifold with a moderately sized Holley 4-V carb will take care of the induction system. There are plenty of long tube headers available for your Torino to go along with a low restriction dual exhaust system. Also upgrade the ignition system with modern components from MSD. Your goal of 350+ horsepower is easily within reach. You really should upgrade your 9” rear end with a Traction-Lock differential and 3.91:1 gears to fully take advantage of the new cam and engine upgrades 🏁.
@@DragBoss351Cleveland I seen some that were and others not... I will look at the ones left over at DV's and send you some pics of he hasn't sold them already
@@DragBoss351Cleveland It's almost like they don't want anyone to have the information, so they code it to confuse us. It is working for sure. Thanks for sharing with us!
I don’t think there will be an issue, however, the cylinder pressure and thin cylinder walls may not like it. Just be reasonable, watch this ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lQhOUmFcgN8.htmlsi=BHNCAlSvguHOmDBC
Sorry Tim, as great as the information about the heads was, i kept getting distracted by a cylinder block with red main caps on it 😂😂😂😂😂 don't know why
