My uncle Lt. Gidel flew f105's over there. He said the same things go me when I was learning to fly. The F105 was just a bomber and they would clean up and hit the afterburners and just get away. Also had a friends father that I saw return from being a POW after a few years at Lt. Flom. Glad he made it back.
Wild Weasel guys had it hard; their whole lot in life was trying to be shot at so they could destory AA/AAA and SAMs to clear a strike group's target zone.
@@showtime112 These guys flew Knowingly, into the face of the most intense AAA fire ever seen on the planet, the only surprise is that almost NONE of them Quit. in 1965 and early 66, the Tour Completion rate was only about 40%, and even at Best, it was 60% chance of finishing your Tour.
The reason the F-105 got so many MiG kills was because the F-105 was crewed by the best pilots available in the USAF at that time. Most had at a decade of flying experience they were professionals. And this could get the best performance out of the airframe.
Well, yeah. That was another important factor. Plus the fact that MiGs were trying to go after the bombers rather than the fighters, whenever they could choose. Therefore perhaps MiGs were around the Thuds more often than their fighter escorts. And being careless was potentially dangerous for them.
Việt Nam , có trở lên giàu mạnh hay không , chính là sự đoàn kết cia toàn dân tộc , không bị bắt ngỡ. Và luôn cảnh giác trước mọi âm mui cua kẻ thù , lịch sử đã để lại cho chúng ta , qua mấy ngàn. Nam lịch sử , thật tự hào và vinh dự là người Việt Nam ,yêu nước ,,. Good bye ,,,haapy new day ,,,,l love Việt Nam is More than j can say ,,,,thank you very much ,,,,,,
A Vulcan 20mm and high speed boom & zoom attacks, stay away from the turning fight !! USA has been ding this well since the P40 in China, F4F in the Pacific 1942' and even with Hellcats, Corsairs, Thunderbolts !! If you can't out turn them, use your power & speed and Gun and hit them fast !! Semper Fi
Yes, and No Tristan, in the initial deployments, when the squadrons from Japan and Okinawa were sent TDY to Korat and Takhli, they were guys that had had a LOT of experience with the aircraft. By 67/68 however, the pool of high-time Thud Drivers was starting to shallow up quickly, and they were pulling pilots out of ADC,SAC,and MAC, putting them through training in the 105 at George, Fighter Weapons School at Nellis, then straight to SEA. The last few years before the 105 was pulled as primary Strike platform in 1970, you had guys with less than 200 hours in type flying the 105 in combat.
@@ronniefarnsworth6465 the 105s pure speed once the bomb l ok and was gone was it's best defence. The Migs would tend to overshoot. Giving the Thid Driver one Pass, then it was unload the G, and the the J-75 do its thing. There was NOTHING that could catch an F-105 full out, down low. All they had to do was get to any one of the Anchor Tracks (Refueling) Tank, and head for home. Best thing about the D/F/G thus is they could tank from ANYONE, both Probe, and Boom
Thank you for your comment. Answering your question, YT algorithm hasn't suggested it to you before. That thing is so complex and hard to understand that there are dozens of channels whose only topic is how the thing works 😁 But, important thing is that you are here now, I hope you like other videos too!
23 shot down by Migs, 31 to Sam's and rest to AAA, accidents and unknown causes. Leo actually shot down 2 Mig-17's on 4/19/67. On 4/30/67 3 F-105's were shot down by Mig-21's 4 men became POW's.
As for Thorsness' second MiG, it was not a confirmed kill but only a probable. Regarding the F-105s shot down by MiGs, I was referring to VPAF claims. The fourth one was not confirmed by USAF. Thank you for your comment!
@@showtime112 I know I'm kind of splitting hairs and you are probably already intimately familiar with that action that occured on 4/19/67 but that second MiG kill on that date is recorded as probable only because the gun cam (Don't you just wish they were all declassified?!) ran out of film. Or maybe it just failed, I forget which. Assuming Leo Thorness, who received the Medal of Honor for his actions on that date, did not lie, his description of the circumstances of that particular weapon event really raises it from "probable," to what I would call nearly certain. No aircraft could do anything resembling controlled flight after taking that much 20mm and the low altitude and complete surprise left the pilot no realistic time to eject or even survive the ejection if he somehow did manage to get out. Again, I imagine you are aware of this stuff so I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am butthurt you are calling it "probable" even though those are the very words of the United States Air Force. I wish you could recreate that mission in DCS but without a high fidelity F-105 it just can't effect a correct comprehension of the events to the viewer, especially without the perspective of the EWO in the pit and a detailed explanation of all that stuff his instruments were telling him. I really love your stuff
@@RocketPropelledGuy Thanks for the comment and for contributing details. As for the kills of Leo Thorsness, they might be reenacted someday. Nobody is working on a high-fidelity F-105 as far as I know (some say that detailed documentation is not available). But maybe when we get MiG-17, in combination with this mod (external shots only), I might make it work. Plus some other MiG kills achieved by the Thuds.
Thanks! The mission that resulted in his award is actually incredibly cool and I might reenact it too. The F-105 mod is flyable. The only mood killer is that is uses Su-27 cockpit.
Maybe so. But just because you have some escort, it doesn't mean they are omnipotent. And according to the way Thorsness described the whole thing, it was a combination of a wrong presumption (air-to-air warning believed to come from the Phantoms) and the ideal positioning of the MiGs.
I wonder, if the F-105 was shortened, given a slightly longer tail fin, given an up to date electronics suite, updated engine, and flight control systems if it would have had specs similar to the F-16C?
Damn it! Who needs to watch a movie if you see this? Great Historical Content as always just love it. I can imagine that this wasn't an easy task in terms of timing to do. And on the other hand damn sad for the real pilot being shot down just before his service time ended. Just wondering why DCS has no Vietnam Maps.
Thanks for your positive comment. You are right, setting this up required some trial and error because in reality, certain things just matched. Major Thorsness was one of many who spent some of their best years in POW camps but many of them showed their true strength and were able to return to normal life afterwards. As for Vietnam map, one of ED big shots said in an interview that there are probably not enough resources for someone to build it for DCS. But that's changing. Already there are MiG-21 and MiG-19, Huey, F-5 and the amazing A-4 mod. Plus, F-8, A-7 and A-6 are being developed. That's a lot more assets for Vietnam than for Falklands :) Let's hope that ED will deal with it after the Mariana Islands. Or maybe Razbam after the Falklands. Ugra Media who did Syria would probably do a great job too!
It is funny to see that most of these 60's aircrafts were intended to be nuclear bombers or nuclear bomber's interceptors. Because a lot of people thought the time of fighters' combats were finished. It was totally wrong... Lack of guns, too high speeds for bombing runs... So, in the 60s, US pilots, and others, flew in aircrafts that were not really designed for the tasks they used them for. The "Thunderchief" is one of my Vietnam War favorite, with the A-4 and F-100 👍
That was certainly a very exciting period in military aviation. And if you said in early 1960s that the next war wouldn't be nuclear, you were declared ignorant :)
Hi Showtime. Another great video, please keep it up. I also have a question. We could hear that one of the US pilots (probably of the F-105) said he had AA warning from the MiG's radar. Why did they take no evasive action? Do we know? Thanks.
Thanks for your comment! Regarding the AA warning, Major Thorsness did get a warning from his RWR. He informed his fighter escort but they replied they saw him on their radar. They thought it was their radar he was getting the warning from. This was a big mistake and neither of them took any action. They all made a wrong assumption, plus the MiGs were on the ideal part of their orbit.
Good job, I watch your videos from beginning to the end - and always enjoy the effort you put in. Good thing new modules are comming all the time, so the content creators (and gamers, too) have more choice - especially in "cold war" historic period.
So, you are one of those people who improve my average view duration?!?!? 😁 Special thanks for that, they say it is one of the most important metrics for a channel. I'm also very happy about new assets showing up. The next thing VSN releases should be F-84 Thunderjet. I will have to do another Korean video with that.
@@showtime112 Well, to be honest most of the time I watch in 1.5x if the video is between 10-25 minutes, but if it's really interesting and full of facts (like yours are), I like to give it a thorough read/listen. And since I like your work (but cannot afford to help you directly finance-wise) I believe leaving a like and a comment would be helpfull for statistics and, hence, the channel growth. In a way, you make some of my dreams come true and I appreciate it. In a word: thanks!
@@PappaBear_yt Well, I can say that this really helps. You are like a top tier viewer 😁 I just hope I'm able to maintain the same level in the future (or even improve).
@@showtime112 Yup, me too! As long as you're having fun doing it, your audience will feel the energy and that is what atracts us. Stay well and cheers!
i own the DVD series "Dogfights:" and recall this fight from the series / if you don't own it, buy it ~ it would be a terrific resource for a man like you (filmmaker) I am really enjoying your films; your ~attention to details is amazing ....Nice Job!!
I also own a DVD set of the Dogfights. I believe the episode you mention covers Thorsness shooting down that MiG-17 (and getting a probable kill on another). I loved that show and found it hard to believe they cancelled it after only two seasons and filled their schedule with some reality shows instead. So far I have used it as a partial source for the 10 May 1972 video but there's certainly a lot more there. Thank you for your comment and keep watching!
@@tristanholland6445 I didnt say they were except they were their main targets. Just he should have mentioned losses to Migs when saying how many Migs were downed to Thuds..
Well, you are right. Maybe I should have introduced that fact somewhere. But I think there will be more videos with the Thuds in the future so there's time left for that. Thank you for your comment!
@@tristanholland6445 Kill/Loss statistics are not reliable, as you need to compare data between both sides of a conflict to get a fairly accurate picture. Kill rates tend to be really over-inflated, regardless of the country or war, seemingly just human nature and the fog of war. In the Korean War, the USAF claimed the F-86 had a kill ratio of 10:1 against the MiG-15, but more recent analysis by RAND using both North Korean and US data showed the actual kill rate was around 1.6:1, which is less than 1/6th the reported ratio. Also I read that it was somewhat common for US airmen to report being shot down by SAMs when they were really shot down by enemy fighters in Vietnam. Which is thought to relate that it was considered less of a bad reflection on the pilot to be shot down by a SAM.
Hi! I don't put direct links but most of that stuff can be found in RU-vid Audio Library. Song title is in video description. If you don't know where Audi Library is, you need to first click on your user name icon in the top right corner (you must be logged on), then go to RU-vid Studio and then it is one of the options on the left side. There you can download mp3 versions. Thanks for your comment!
Great stuff... super himages. Just one critic, when the burner is on, normally there is no smoke (we see the 21 climbing on the burner and leaving a trail of smoke) This was important as the pilots knew what kind of power the adversary was using. The F-4 smoked like a train on military (we see no smoke comming out when cruising) Some F-4 drivers would select low buner on one engine and flight idle on the other to be able to cruise with out smoke, alternatively changing engines, this was not recommended. Just details that do nothing to tarnish the video. Keep at it !
Thanks for the comment. Regarding the smoky engines, that's detail beyond my control. Aircraft modules are programmed in a certain way and you can't change them. I know that engines shouldn't smoke in afterburner. Perhaps it's a detail they will fix with some later update.
I helped rebuild an F-105 as a gate guard in England. I was working the F-111F at the time and was amazed at how big the thud was. Your vid's are top notch.
Before Bolo the Mig-21's really had no fear, they knew the, Vectors, Formations and Radio Calls the Korat and Takhli Thuds used when ingressing to strike in Pak Six, the GCI controllers used this to their advantage vectoring the Fishbeds onto the 105's, Because the Fishbeds had more power, and WAY better Acceleration, there was far less opportunity for the F-105's to turn things around as they managed to do with the Mig-17's, which is why All of the F-105 Kills were on Frescos. Olds took an idea from a Bull session with a bunch of F-105 and Navy jocks, and from that seed Bolo was Formed, the VPLAF got their Nose Bloodied, and the Fishbeds were a bit more cautious coming up to play. All In all, I rate this video as Shit Hot!!!!! Leo Thorsness was one of my Heroes growing up, I had a chance to meet him as a young CAP Cadet, at a time when My state's Air National Guard was still flying F-105B's, and You;ve done an absolutely Stellar job on this. I agree that the Flanker Cockpit is a touch off-putting, Hopefully as time goes on, they'll adjust that.
@@showtime112 I'm hoping that the devs of this Mod will tweak it down the line and not just leave it as is. There are a couple of Decent 105 Modules for FSX/P3D, with the right cockpits. We can but hope, Mostly because this is the only way the F-105 will still be flying, as there aren't any Flying Examples, nor will there ever be again
The 21 wasn't more powerful than the F-105, but it was smaller and lighter. Therefore faster. In gun-to-gun combat, the Fishbed wasn't that impressive.
@@wanyelewis9667 When you compare them Clean? No you are correct, they weren't. Now, Hang 2 450 Gallon bags on the inboard Wing Stations, a pair of Sidewinders on the Port Wing outer station, and an ECM Pod on the Starboard outer Station, along with a MER on the Centerline with 6 750 M-117 Bombs (WWII Vintage, and REALLY Draggy) on the F-105, and put it up against Mig-21's in Intercept Mode with nothing but a single Tank, and a Pair of Atolls If that (The Tanks weren't really necessary since they weren't straying far from their Bases), and you find that Yeah the Mig's had more power, Not to mention WAY better Performance when it came to Turning Engagements. Doctrine for the F-105 with a Mig-21, was to Clean up, Unload G, and Full burner to run away.
@@toadman506 it's noteworthy that the F-105's engine produced as much power without using its afterburner as the MIG 21's did in full afterburner. But you're right. The way the 105 was rigged for these missions made it perform more like a bomber compared to an interceptor. But clean--like an interceptor--it would be a different story. The F-105 had a top speed of nearly 1,400 mph; the MIG would be hard-pressed to reach 1,300.
Well, that was the harsh reality of this war. I don't know if you saw my previous video. You might like the outcome of that one a little better :) The RWR was working but after Thorsness informed the CAP about it, they replied that was their own radar he was being warned about. So, neither of them took any action and the MiGs were able to slip through and launch the missiles. You know what they say, assumption is the mother of all f*** ups. Thank you for the comment!
@@showtime112 just wanna comment on the funky music great selection for the times. You're absolutely Right about the MIG's strategy it worked. Assumptions are just that, Good points.
I am surprised the F105 had so many kills as I don't consider it near the fighter of the F4... The comment about pilot skill maybe is the answer... or is it that maneuverable?
One thing that find weird is that despite the VPAF being so tiny never more than 100 planes pilots of every American plane type are supposed to have positive kill ratios except maybe B-52s and other bombers, that wouldn't leave any Vietnamese pilots alive by that count. F-100, F-105, F-4 Phantoms of all services, A-1 Skyraiders all! Soviets were replacing planes but the Vietnamese pilot pool was not going to be very large in short period
They kept training new ones. But also, any pilot who ejected was very likely to return to service. It might be interesting though to see the entire statistics though and see if everything adds up.
I haven't made a full mission for this. The most challenging part is the fact that the MiGs need to be at the right place at the right time, otherwise the Thuds will fly away. It would be hard to do with the takeoff and everything.
@@showtime112 nemam, to je bilo kada su u Pulu došli Amerikanci sa Tomcatom iz VF-103, i par Horneta. To sigurno znaš za tu posjetu. E sad kako je to čovjek izveo. To ne znam, u fcbk grupi Hrvatsko ratno zrakoplovstvo / Croatian air force, sigurno netko ima tko zna nešto o tome.
I know you like to do reenactments, but it'd be cool to see you do the T-4 kawasaki on Japan's flight demonstration team at Hyakuri Air Base where they had shows before, called the Blue Impulse. Much like the White Knights and Blue Angels. They also painted the F4 phantom fleet in a snazzy digital camo livery right before it's retirement. I make skins on this gamena lot. I need to make these available on DCS.
Hey! Thanks for the suggestion and comment. However, aerobatics are a whole different game. I don't even think I'd be very good at it :) Plus, you really need a team of human flyers to do it. I'm not exactly sure how it could be done with AI pilots. But there are some virtual aerobatics DCS World groups. Maybe some of them could do something like that?
I enjoyed the video, but there's a big mistake in it... Leo Thorness was flying a F-105F model, not a F-105G Wild Weasel as depicted. We didn't have the G model Weasels until Oct. of '70 at Korat. It was at the start of my 3rd tour at Korat RTAFB as a F-105 fire/weapons control tech. and the D/F model Thuds were no longer being used by then. Too many were lost in the previous years. The F-4E's at Korat had taken over the bombing missions. The 6010 F-105G Wild Weasel squadron (later became the 17th) flew strictly missions against the SAM sites using AGM-45 and AGM-78 missiles.
Thank you for your comment and expertise. As for the discrepancy in the F-105 model, it's not a mistake. It's just approximation. In order to reenact these historic missions, I use DCS World which is the most realistic and complex simulation of military airplanes ever available publicly, However, it is still very much limited in terms of available assets. There were many various models, types and sub-types produced in history and it would be impossible to cover all of them. We will probably never have a simulation with every variant of every airplane that ever was. And so, in almost every single case, the closest available asset needs to be used instead. The only other option would be not to make these videos. Also, MiG-21 isn't correct either. It's the bis variant which North Vietnam only acquired in the late '70s but that's the only version there is. And the 'MiG-17' shot down by Leo Thorsness here is in fact MiG-15. But that's just the way it is. No way around it.
How are the MiGs planning to locate the Thuds?? Doesn't look like they're turning radar on, so are they staring into the sun and hoping to pick the F-105s out *visually*??? Good luck with that...
Apparently, you are not familiar with the standard Soviet tactics of Ground Control Intercept that North Vietnam also relied on. Interceptors were closely guided by ground radars and only in the final phase they would use their own radars (or eyes) to locate their targets. As for radars not being on, you might be reffering to the initial part of the flight. MiG-21 had an alcohol based cooling with limited operational time. So, they would only turn radars on much later. The radar was turned on during this interception. Thorsness even got an RWR warning but it was mistakenly identified as coming from is escort. So, that's how they were hoping to locate F-105s.
According to USA, also available on Wikipedia, USA lost over 9,900 aircrafts and USA claims to have shot between 150-200 Vietnamese & Chinese aircrafts. So, the fact is It’s 10,000 - v - 200 for Vietnamese / Chines. And no doubt, we will see the same in South China Sea of USA gets into any misadventure!
If the VPAF had been flying into Southu Vietnam they would lose their entire air force. Flying into enemy held territory is always more dangerous than defending your own. In your own defense, normally you outnumber the attackers. Usually. Not always.WW2 over Germany we lost hundreds and hundreds of bombers and fighters defending them.
It could do what it was designed for rather well. Even a lot more, shooting down plenty of MiGs in the process (who would have expected that?) The high losses were mostly the result of poor strategy and micromanagement.
Razmišljao sam o tome. Doduše, MiG-29 je u nekakvim okršajima uvijek izvlačio deblji kraj pa je to onda malo nezgodno :) Eventualno neku air-to-ground misiju u recimo Siriji. Ubacit ću na listu. Hvala na komentaru!
I was beginning to wonder how come nobody is asking that question 😁 Those were F-4C Phantoms with a radar that had rather limited capabilities. More precisely, no look down/ shoot down. MiGs were flying on a very low altitude and then they very quickly popped up, shot their missiles and ran away. Even a more modern radar wouldn't necessarily have detected them on time. Plus, there was a misunderstanding. Thorsness got an air-to-air signal on his RWR but the escorts presumed it was from their own radar and told him basically not to worry. That's why the Thuds didn't do anything. A fatal mistake.
@@showtime112 as far as I remember from books there weren't escorts for 105s until late of 1966, there were only CAPs and sweeps. At least E.Rasimus didn't mention any escorts and most of the times they had to handle any situation themselves..
That's not US insignia, that is how insignia of Vietnamese People's Air Force looks like. I read that Ho Chi Mihn was inspired by USA when he was fighting for independence of Vietnam, first against Japan and then France. Perhaps US inspired their air force too.
They're the closest things available in DCS right now - MiG-15bis and MiG-21bis. The Thud is from a user mod, but I've yet to see a 21F/PFV or MiG-17 mod, let alone official module. I certainly hope we get some, though.
@@showtime112 yep. I’m an airline pilot and I met a fellow pilot that had a patch on his jacket the said 100 missions F105. I drilled his brain for stories. He said it was bad when they went over Hanoi and his wing man was shot down by AAA and ejected but was never heard from again.
Shout out to all "WILD WEASEL" Pilots and RIOs! They had balls of steel the size of the moon!! To be "THE FIRST ONE IN..THE LAST ONE OUT" To search and destroy SA2 SAM sites while at the same time you had to dodge MIGs and all kinds of AAAs so eager to turn you into shish kebab!? Not a chance in hell!! IM OUT!!LOL..😂😂
Thanks for the comment! Fighter pilots who shoot down MiGs get most of the glory while Wild Weasel guys had one of the most dangerous jobs and you don't hear about SAM-killing 'aces' very often.
@@showtime112 Your videos are superb and include many forgotten "Third World" actions...........the plane model or bort number are secondary.........the fight is important!!!
You know they added Cannons to the F-4 but they were almost Useless in a Dog Fight, as when they were fired the cannon jerked around so much, Accuracy was Impossible. The Big Brains in the pentagon, thought the days of the Close Up Dog Fight was over, so they went with missiles, but Vietnam Proved them Wrong.
