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Deep(er) Ecology: William Rees, Nora Bateson, Rex Weyler | Reality Roundtable #02 

Nate Hagens
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On this segment of Reality Roundtable, Nate is joined by William Rees, Nora Bateson, and Rex Weyler to discuss the purpose of ecology and what it might look like to have a civilization centered around it. Despite our tendency to think of ourselves as separate from the biosphere, humans are a part of it, just like any other animal. What sets us apart now is our outsized impact on the world around us, as we and our societies take up more space and resources, degrading the ecosystems that support ourselves, our descendants, and other species. How can an understanding of systems and relationships help us rethink how we interact with the planet? Could ecologically literate governments and citizens create wider boundaries across time and space in which decisions are made? What might the parameters be for a civilization centered around ecology, and how can we navigate there through declining energy and resource availability? Most of all, how can we as individuals and communities root ourselves into a deep(er) ecological knowledge and way of being?
About William Rees:
William Rees is a population ecologist, ecological economist, Professor Emeritus and former Director of the University of British Columbia’s School of Community and Regional Planning in Vancouver, Canada. He researches the implications of global ecological trends for the longevity of civilization, with special focus on urban (un)sustainability and cultural/cognitive barriers to rational public policy. Prof Rees is best known as the originator and co-developer with Dr Mathis Wackernagel of ‘ecological footprint analysis’ (EFA), a quantitative tool that estimates human demands on ecosystems and the extent to which humanity is in ‘ecological overshoot.’ Dr Rees is a founding member and former President of the Canadian Society for Ecological Economics; a founding Director of the OneEarth Living Initiative; a Fellow of the Post-Carbon Institute and an Associate Fellow of the Great Transition Initiative.
About Nora Bateson:
Nora Bateson is an award-winning filmmaker, writer and educator, as well as President of the International Bateson Institute, based in Sweden. Her work asks the question “How can we improve our perception of the complexity we live within, so we may improve our interaction with the world?”.
An international lecturer, researcher and writer, Nora wrote, directed and produced the award-winning documentary, An Ecology of Mind, a portrait of her father, Gregory Bateson. Her work brings the fields of biology, cognition, art, anthropology, psychology, and information technology together into a study of the patterns in ecology of living systems. Her book, Small Arcs of Larger Circles, released by Triarchy Press, UK, 2016 is a revolutionary personal approach to the study of systems and complexity.
About Rex Weyler:
Rex Weyler is a writer and ecologist. His books include Blood of the Land; the Government and Corporate War Against First Nations, nominated for a Pulitzer Prize; Greenpeace: The Inside Story, a finalist for the BC Book Award and the Shaughnessy-Cohen Award for Political Writing; and The Jesus Sayings, a deconstruction of first century history, a finalist for the BC Book Award.
In the 1970s, Weyler was a cofounder of Greenpeace International and editor of the Greenpeace Chronicles. He served on campaigns to preserve rivers and forests and to stop whaling, sealing, and toxic dumping.
He currently posts the “Deep Green” column at the Greenpeace International website. He lives on Cortes Island in British Columbia, with his wife, artist Lisa Gibbons.
For Show Notes and More visit: www.thegreatsimplification.co...
#thegreatsimplification #natehagens #ecology #overshoot

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15 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 321   
@celestialteapot309
@celestialteapot309 Год назад
Thanks everybody, it's good not to feel quite so alone in a mad world.
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
Misery does love company.
@Apjooz
@Apjooz Год назад
These people flap their gums. Meanwhile there are people who actually do things in effective manner. Make lives actually better.
@dianewallace6064
@dianewallace6064 Год назад
You are not alone, my friend
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
@@Apjooz Flap their gums? That's all you got out of it. Okay.
@user-tw4un8tt6d
@user-tw4un8tt6d Год назад
@@ApjoozAction is the root of the predicament. I find great comfort in the conversation in that it takes me out of my own viewpoint which can become boring and unproductive. Some of it requires taking your mind to places it has never been before. I find that part of the discussion engaging and sometimes inspiring. You might also consider that talking and action (or inaction) are not mutually exclusive activities. One can do both.
@sultanbev
@sultanbev Год назад
Excellent commentary again Nate, Bill Rees has the politest way of punching anyone's hopium in the face and one still liking him afterwards.
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
Just the bald faced truth from Bill Rees. Brutal, but refreshing.
@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490
Rex as well.
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
@@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490 Agreed!
@reuireuiop0
@reuireuiop0 Год назад
​@@mrrecluse7002The bald faced truth from the guy with the best beard on the forum 😃
@peaksurferalbert
@peaksurferalbert 11 месяцев назад
I have come back to this episode over and over. So deep and comprehensive. If there were a podcast equivalent of an Emmy or Golden Globe, or Podcast Hall of Fame, this single episode would be a contender.
@selenefee7801
@selenefee7801 11 месяцев назад
I keep coming back to this podcast too. Resonates deeply with me.
@davidbranch2020
@davidbranch2020 8 месяцев назад
33 minutes in and I’m thinking the same way. Can’t remember the movie it’s from but this reminds me of a scene where a guy is describing a tube ride as the lip tossing all the BS he's exposed to in his life out of the way; Unbundling him to live in the now. This feels like peak podcast like pulling the top your wetsuit down after a epic session -the sun hitting the chest while the rising steam dances in applause for time perfectly spent
@ctboone1
@ctboone1 5 месяцев назад
I totally agree. Specifically, Nora's comments from 50:27-59:00 stopped me in my tracks the first time I heard them and I've come back to them repeatedly. I see the pattern of what she's critiquing every day in my line of work. Incoming giant block quote just because I love it so much: "There's some abstracted, map-like idea that everyone thinks they're cohering to, but then it turns out that everyone actually interpreted that differently and the way they interpreted it yesterday changed. So, that thing becomes the territory on which you are in polarity with each other and not the thing you agree about. The thing you fight about most is the 'mission statement'...[instead] what is it that we can actually do together to provide a remembering or mutual learning on how to help each other in need?... This type of redundancy I think is really important. Learning how to be redundant - (not repetitive - a machine is repetitive) - but [rather] redundant.... There's alot of pressure on how people should live, how they should think, how they should be, how they should feel. This top-down instructional telling how people how to live, think, and feel is, I think, a completely un-ecological process. The way to reverse that question - instead of 'how do I develop?' it is this question: 'who can you be when you're with me? That's an ecological shift right there....How might I learn to be in support of things that are really basic that we need to do together?" "The wisdom of that is not going to be packaged in a book. The wisdom of that is going to be in the particular, and a sensitivity to the particular, to the complexity on the ground. Instead of reaching for the manual. That's that engineering mind popping in again - "how do we create an engineered version of how to go through crisis together?" This is exactly the wrong question. The question is, "Who can you be when you're with me?" What does it feel to be in mutual learning together? How do we meet an unfamiliar and dangerous situation together? What is it that you can give your kids, that you can give your friends, that you can give your family, right now that will allow them that possibility of that perception and of generosity and of integrity? So that in a moment of crisis there is a possibility of creating something together that you cannot imagine right now. We hop to "what's the solution?" but the point is that we don't know. The point is - how do we be in relationship such that whatever comes we can be creative together and meet it? That's a second order response. It's preparing for second order, not first order."
@treefrog3349
@treefrog3349 Год назад
This is a "postscript" written two days after this conversation occurred. I noticed that there were 4.5 thousand viewers yet only 318 "thumbs up". After reading the comments, it became obvious that the information that was discussed resonated with a whole lot more than 318 people. Why not show a little appreciation for Nate Hagen's heartfelt efforts? I can honestly say that I have a hell of a lot more respect for him than I do for any of the self-serving morons on Capitol Hill. I think that you do too. Why not show it?
@BreeRadloff
@BreeRadloff Год назад
Great talk. 25 years in my industry and I've learned one maxim in particular: a business will only care about that which it can measure and quantify. Our socioeconomic system does not track anything related to the biosphere or quality of life, it measures price signals and tracks shareholder value. Any new system will need to observe and understand discrete signs of biosphere and human wellbeing.
@OspreyFlyer
@OspreyFlyer Год назад
Environmental costs mean nothing in this insane asylum.
@EvolutionWendy
@EvolutionWendy Год назад
I'm concerned about the economic system, it seems like a self-reinforcing loop, I see evidence that we are enslaved by it..
@leonstenutz6003
@leonstenutz6003 Год назад
Loved your comment -- and despite limited experience, believe both that you are correct and that this is a fundamental reality that must be addressed. Would love to know more.
@christopherharrison2987
@christopherharrison2987 Год назад
Thank you so much for putting together these high level, incredibly informative and thought-provoking conversations! They are such a joy to listen to in a world where the baseline seems to be going lower, and lower… and lower.
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
Yes, the dumbing down is winning, in a sick world.
@renatacaramaschi445
@renatacaramaschi445 Год назад
thank you everybody for this conversation .. I'm 65 and I grow up in a big town in Italy but every weekend my parents bring me back in a small village into the countryside where still living grandparents and relatives on a big farm .. there no electricity and life was flowing like centuries in the past .. so many learnings are lost from this time .. centuries from middle age till time of Roman's Empire .. civilization growing too fast has erased everything .. far from an idyllic evaluation .. brutality .. social injustice .. illness .. people were facing a harsh life .. but there is something I never meet again .. the soul .. there was a so strong collettive soul .. difficult to explain .. just like to bring to life thousands of successful adaptations they were practicing on their territory ..
@leonstenutz6003
@leonstenutz6003 Год назад
Beautiful! Grazia da Bolivia!
@rayn3038
@rayn3038 11 месяцев назад
EVERYONE IS MOVING TO MEGA CITIES FOR MONEY….few will know how to Farm….Robots will grow our Food….when War and Climate collapse and Economic collapse come….the Survival Skills that carried Humanity over millennia are Gone and we face near Extinction….mega Cities are collection sites for Extermination. Stone Age is not far Off and Nature will Rejoice.
@dianewallace6064
@dianewallace6064 Год назад
I like the question "Who can you be when you are with me?"
@kupkaon
@kupkaon Год назад
Just today I had an epiphany while studying metabolism of living things how it is all just about energy gradients and how it basically starts with the Big Bang. And now I start watching a video and hear people describing ecology in the exact same way I grasp it for myself since this morning. What a nice synchronicity. Didn't take long to find my tribe 🙂
@dianewallace6064
@dianewallace6064 Год назад
Bill Rees: Sustainable society = horse and buggy. Love it!!!
@dianewallace6064
@dianewallace6064 Год назад
@chrisahsyeud9844 Agreed. I'll do my part and die soon. Plus I put Aquamation in my will so my last act won't be combustion of my organic molecules.
@reuireuiop0
@reuireuiop0 Год назад
​@chrisahsyeud9844There's a lot that's not sustainable about 8bn folks on the planet. Not in the least as the young ones are working hard to make it close to 10bn in 2050.
@MrBallynally2
@MrBallynally2 11 месяцев назад
and slavery, starvation, feudalism, tribal warfare. All pretty wonderful things prior to the industrial revolution. Oh, i forgot: no women's rights nor minority ones. Let's all go back to that! Ecologists cannot see any positives of the industrial revolution. At the heart it is anti human and pro 'nature' whatever that means. It is undeniable..
@user-tw4un8tt6d
@user-tw4un8tt6d Год назад
A hypothetical to mitigate the consequences of human driven overshoot has something to do with hitting bottom and finding the necessity to see each other and the ecology as interconnected for our survival. These conversations are a signal to remind a small number of us who are receptive that we are interconnected with each other and all living things.
@jaycoldwell
@jaycoldwell Год назад
Best ever. Interestingly, it gave me a sense of peace. I like Nora's commentary about intentional communities never working, and whatever comes next has to grow organically, not by a top-down plan. And if we are good to one another and learn how to help one another and teach or model those things to others, that in itself is a great contribution to whatever goes forward.
@selenefee7801
@selenefee7801 11 месяцев назад
Strangely gave me a lot of peace too.
@jennysteves
@jennysteves Год назад
It’s great to hear from Rex Weyler again. What a superb panel. Thank you, Nate. This conversation went deep and wide, and beyond the intellectual to include heart and will. I look forward to your next carefully chosen group and its future discussion.
@ryanbachman3850
@ryanbachman3850 Год назад
This was one of my favorite episodes. Full of wisdom, and despite the dark undertones of studying ecology in this current moment, I feel happier having listened to these people who are being honest and facing reality with humility and courage.
@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490
Rex and Bill are rare gems of wisdom.
@EvolutionWendy
@EvolutionWendy Год назад
How about the woman do you believe the woman is full of wisdom?
@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490
​​No, a lightweight compared to Bill and Rex. She waffles on quite a bit. I also didn't like that she tried to obfuscate the overpopulation issue with consumption. That's a tired old predictable tactic.
@Dilmahkana
@Dilmahkana Год назад
@@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490 A had a lil chuckle at your "she waffles on" comment, I've seen mainly men saying that's a bad thing. I wonder why
@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490
@@Dilmahkana Of course, straight to the "sexiest" card. Didn't see that coming.
@Dilmahkana
@Dilmahkana Год назад
@@ihateexcessivelylongandpoi4490 it's a classic criticism Nora gets when she is exposed to people new to her. I see it as a reflex of masculine mindset (not just 'men' to be fair) to the feminine way of being
@em945
@em945 Год назад
These 3 are ON FIRE. Thank you, Nate. ( i think you are your zone of excellence)
@Seawithinyou
@Seawithinyou Год назад
An Awakening powerful heartfelt podcast Nate and All Thank you so much from Aotearoa 🐟🕊🌳🌊🌏❤️
@cristinataliani5619
@cristinataliani5619 Год назад
Great Presentation Nate!!! William Rees Strikes Again!!!
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
He's the ultimate reality check, on our arrogance.
@mariannegibson1407
@mariannegibson1407 Год назад
Wow. So much to think about here, thanks to one and all. And Nora's championing of unintentional community and addressing tautological thinking really chime with me. Thanks again.
@norabateson8985
@norabateson8985 Год назад
thank you for noticing how important this is.
@bearector8521
@bearector8521 Год назад
@@norabateson8985 I'm another who found your input riveting and enlightening. [And I came to a similar conclusion about intentional community -- more difficult/tedious than it's worth] But somehow I had a slightly different understanding of the word "tautology' than you do. I agree with your meaning, just not the word choice. Thank you so much for balancing Bill and Rex !
@em945
@em945 Год назад
@@norabateson8985 Nora! Wow! Thank you. You were in your element, and I thank you for your efforts. I have not seen anyone with your school of thought that has both skills of higher thinking and experience on the ground, AND also be able to communicate AND hold themselves in conversation. Please keep persevering. Thanks again.
@webu-sadley
@webu-sadley Год назад
Thank you Nate Hagens. Great discussion on Deep ecology. Understanding "Being" as dissipation and emergence within a solar economy. The awareness of immanence. Impermanence. Reality as it is not as we would have it...
@leonstenutz6003
@leonstenutz6003 Год назад
Beautiful. Real. Yes!
@markstaniford9965
@markstaniford9965 11 месяцев назад
A thumbs up does not do this discussion justice. Keep talking. Keep teaching. A big thanks to all of you for your insights. So sad this stuff does not get a mention at our schools.
@stevenmorris5562
@stevenmorris5562 Год назад
Than you Nate for facilitating this wonderful conversation. I've been involved with Warm Data for 3 years now. It' nice to hear Nora's thoughts interacting with others in the field in real conversations. Not just in our gatherings.
@j85grim4
@j85grim4 Год назад
Nate the Great, thank you so much for this. This may very well be your best episode yet! Any plans on having Dr Jane O'Sullivan of Queensland on here? Her work on human overpopulation really opened my eyes to how much of a driver that side of the coin really is.
@torsteinholen14
@torsteinholen14 Год назад
I really enjoy Rex and Bill, learned a lot from them over time. But there is something about Nora, her thinking I really love, a good wisdom :D Thank you Nate for this and everything, from the depths of my soul. And to Nora, Bill and Rex.
@markboland1181
@markboland1181 Год назад
Loved Bills concise words. The rest is word salad. The fact that our intellectuals are at this level of chaotic abstraction tells me we aren’t ready to take action.
@wvhaugen
@wvhaugen Год назад
Well, not ALL our intellectuals. I am a peasant intellectual and I recommend it highly.
@trueeagle5487
@trueeagle5487 Год назад
The bee in the tree, you just created a great childrens book on the spot❤
@bradmiller6507
@bradmiller6507 Год назад
Excellent discussion and what thoughtful and great explanation of the issues we face.
@robertzabinski6083
@robertzabinski6083 Год назад
When yeast in a bottle overshoot and collapse, there might be some marginal genetic variation where by some yeast are more robust to the rising alcohol content and last a bit longer than the norm. Humans are not mere organisms, but technologically enhanced giants that tread heavily on the earth. Technology has two aspects. It is the synthetic environmental buffer in which we exist, as long as low entropy is available to sustain it, and more consequentially, it is a prosthetic that expands the powers (and impact) of the user. Those with access and control over more technology are super human cyborgs, or colonies of prosthetically enhanced super organisms. Unlike the slight genetic variation of the yeast, the variation of prosthetic enhancement between regular working individuals and those at the helm of vast enterprises, is many orders of magnitude. So too is their ability to deal with "contraction". What we'll see is something like in the movie Titanic. Where pampered first class passengers disembarked early on half empty life boats, while the third class passengers remained locked behind gates in steerage. Or, as depicted in the film Elysium, those with greater control and access to technologies will not be competing on an even playing field. They exist in a whole different synthetic buffer zone environment, the entropy cost of which is born by the masses on the ground. We're seeing it happen already. State dinners still serve surf and turf, but school children are given the priveledge of lunching on crickets.
@flamingleg
@flamingleg Год назад
encore! rare to see a forum where ideas like these are given room to breathe
@BROWNDIRTWARRIOR
@BROWNDIRTWARRIOR 8 месяцев назад
Rex's insight into the meaning of ecology was excellent with it's mystical and spiritual dimension. We are indeed profoundly connected and therefore interdependent and that seems to be what the planet is teaching us at the dawn of the 21st century in a punishingly merciless and indifferent way.
@snowflakeca2079
@snowflakeca2079 10 месяцев назад
Nate is “The Guru”. Intelligent conversations with Intelligent humans. Thanks for another excellent discussion.
@haldanebdoyle
@haldanebdoyle Год назад
Amazing assembly. I really enjoyed listening to this. It reminded me a lot of the central thesis in the doco "All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace". That program outlined how the early days of computers and mass data analysis were applied to both ecology and economics, assuming that if you measured enough input data and had a sophisticated enough mathematical model then everything in a complex system could be understood and controlled. Of course the results were disastrous. Ecology and biology are irreducibly complex, but that means they are almost infinitely adaptable if you are willing to enter into a sincere relationship with them.
@steveberkson3873
@steveberkson3873 Год назад
Inter-connectedness. Thank You All. I try to vision communicating to friends,family..cognitive dissonance is directly in the way. Its frustrating,not that I’m perfectly attuned,to urge we-the-people to open the arms,hearts,and minds to the deep ecology. This vid I’ll share,hopefully I’ll hear discourse and not crickets(as busy as they are doing their part) ~ we’re all connected. Thanks again for the refresh 🤗
@MountaineeringSense
@MountaineeringSense Год назад
Fuxking amazing discussion! Wow! Thank you all. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein
@EvolutionWendy
@EvolutionWendy Год назад
Yogi Berra says, if stupidity got us into this why can't stupidity get us out of it?
@MarneeMadsen
@MarneeMadsen Год назад
How can we discuss ecology, overshoot and capacity without discussing the actual impacts loss of habitat? I love Dr Rees... One of the few out there saying the truth. And at the same time with nonlinear accelerating heat alone at this point we all lose habitat. There will be no horses and oxen. We know that the rate of change is 10,000 times greater than previous extinctions. Let's have this panel back and talk impending extinction and trying to preserve habitat for microbes that may survive runaway heat and ionizing radiation.
@felipearbustopotd
@felipearbustopotd Год назад
We are NOW reaping what we have sown. We are buying stuff we don't need, with money we don't have, to impress those we don't like. Thank you for uploading and sharing. P s Gaia is totally safe, we on the other hand are screwed.
@matosmond4519
@matosmond4519 10 месяцев назад
Brilliant discussion, thanks. The thread here about intentional or planned solutions vs. sensitivity to emerging particulars is one of the most helpful observations I've heard in ages.
@Twilight61559
@Twilight61559 Год назад
Great panel! I have been inspired by writings and traditions that advocate for living simply as a path to freedom and I really appreciate the perspectives shared here today. One of the most optimistic things that I can think of at least where North America is concerned is that for some (but of course not all of us) of us our lives will actually be improved my lessening our consumption. And it can actually be really fun in the right circumstances, trying your first long distance bike ride with a friend who knows how to do it, or making a friend who knows how to do it, trying to live with only fresh food and no refrigeration for a day or two ( like everyone did until a few years ago), buying vintage clothing, driving rather than flying, making a vegetarian, totally local, or vegan meal... all of this stuff is very doable and in general very fun. It leads us to change and adventure. It's fun to discover new ways to live, it makes life more interesting, it gives us more to talk about and it gives us a fresh perspective on what we actually need. I hope that this chance for fun and discovery can help at least some of us (the highest consumers) feel a sense of optimism around the idea of reducing our energy needs. Of course the ecological realities unfolding are terrifying and tragic and this does not apply to people without enough resources. But whenever we can preserve our passion and enthusiasm for living more lightly we are at least offering ourselves a chance for greater freedom, peace and sustainability. We are also making the world more fair and leaving these resources hopefully more available to those who need them. Thanks for this talk! I appreciated all of the perspectives, the reminder to stay calm, the reminder of inherent limits, and everything!
@kupkaon
@kupkaon Год назад
This was the most truthful and opening experience I have had in a long time. You really managed to dance around and with the topic well. The mix of guests was brilliant. Each a bit or even very different in their approach and speech, but it all just fit together greatly, even with my rather basic knowledge in ecology. There was a thread, a flow. Really enjoyed this. I feel grounded and inspired.
@blueislandgirl_
@blueislandgirl_ 9 месяцев назад
I wish Bill Rees would write a book about ecology for today's predicament! So needed.
@jonathantrautman
@jonathantrautman Год назад
Thank you for this beautiful discussion
@PSVidiya
@PSVidiya 5 месяцев назад
WONDERFUL !!!!! Finally , a very very sincere talk on ecological systems and unsustainability being the default and this talk absolutely educative and relaxing to me. I have the courage to face whatever is going to come. Yes but no fuss, at the face of crisis. One crisis will bring another new and that evolves to its end in its term, and another .... Thanks and thanks a lot.
@FREEAGAIN432
@FREEAGAIN432 4 месяца назад
WOW. Epic and revealing on so many dimensions. Learned so much. Excited to share and reflect with my community. Deep Bow of Gratitude to Nate, Nora, Bill, and Rex.
@kellyclark59
@kellyclark59 11 месяцев назад
Regarding unintentional community, I've been working with a self-directed learning/democratic/Sudbury style (un)school for the past several years. I really believe this educational model is ideal for these times. Conventional schooling focuses on "outcomes" for kids, using curriculum that is disconnected from reality and relevance, and tests to measure their success at preparing kids for said tests. All the while they strip kids of their curiosity, agency and ability to communicate with each other and solve problems together. Alternatively, self-directed democratic schools have no curriculum, rather allowing kids to spend their time as they choose. The focus is on the systems of governance, conflict resolution and problem solving which truly put kids at the center. Every member, from the youngest 5-year old to the adult staff is respected and empowered to contribute to creating the community. Instead of being concerned about what kids will become and how they will contribute to the capitalist economy, we care about who kids are now and how they relate to each other.
@EvolutionWendy
@EvolutionWendy Год назад
30:00 Nora Bateson says how little we know about diversity, reminds me how people are setting up fake forests-instead of letting nature have the space to do with as she will.
@greciamendez7375
@greciamendez7375 10 месяцев назад
what an uplifting conversation! I truly needed this to expand my perspective on how to navigate this changing world. Stay calm everyone ✌
@treefrog3349
@treefrog3349 Год назад
It seems to me that our society/culture tends to pooh-pooh the whole Gaia Principle as being "woo-woo", when in reality the complex interconnectivity of all LIFE is the most profound 'truth" we know of. Homo sapiens have invented endless ideologies, religions, political regimes, and cultures over the millennia but the 4-billion year old Earth processes churn underneath all of these man-made monkey-shines. In our arrogance we have allowed Human Exceptionalism to enter the pantheon of specious beliefs. The Earth would be a perpetual, naturally-balanced, pristine wilderness of life at this very moment if it was not for human hubris. The Earth is not "all about humans" regardless of what our priests, politicians and potentates tell us.
@nancyravenel915
@nancyravenel915 Год назад
Wow, thanks for sharing your heartfelt thoughts. I agree with your ideas.
@dalewolver8739
@dalewolver8739 Год назад
So very true.
@nexoscomunitariosperu2176
@nexoscomunitariosperu2176 Год назад
This was wonderful! Thank you, Nate!
@ushalexa
@ushalexa 9 месяцев назад
This was wonderful. The things that Rex Weyler and Dr. Rees said are so important to be understood and need to become common knowledge. I'd not heard of Nora Bateson before I first heard her on your podcast. She may be one of the wisest people I've ever heard speak. I imagine Robin Wall Kimmerer also would have had a great deal to contribute to this rich discussion. I hope you get a chance to speak to her in one of your episodes. And maybe facilitate a discussion between her and Nora Bateson-that could take the discussion into whole new realms. Ooh, and if you added Daniel Schmachtenberger into that conversation too, we might all just lose our minds. In a good way. Thanks for all you do Nate.
@northpole9311
@northpole9311 Год назад
The lights of Vegas sure are bright when you get there....I personally love moonlight and all the shadows as you snowshoe through the forest at -30c on a December full moon.. The world is one hell of a miracle one hell of a miracle...
@benioren6120
@benioren6120 Год назад
Thank you Nora for holding the anchor of sacred belief in possibility.
@mariaamparoolivergarza8933
@mariaamparoolivergarza8933 10 месяцев назад
Thank you for the brave, clear manner in which these topics are spoken.
@viverepensare
@viverepensare Год назад
Loved this roundtable talk🇮🇹🇸🇪👍🙏
@thegreatsimplification
@thegreatsimplification Год назад
you must have listened at 2x speed!!
@JaseboMonkeyRex
@JaseboMonkeyRex Год назад
I agree with Rex but then Nora comes over top and with great wisdom about the scale of the shift that includes everything not just one aspect of a culture .... These conversations always remind me of Joseph Tainters work and the reality that no culture has ever changed in the manner our culture needs to change ...swapping out the fundamental core values by definition makes the culture extinct so we will push our way of life right up till its end ... Like the Vikings did in Greenland which Jared Diamond has written about.... That society isn't killed from outside but commit suicide by their seemingly rational actions but are ecologically insane... And this sums our culture up in my view ...and this podcast and others are just highlighting the scale and complexity of this insane culture and its destructive capacities .... now I am going for a walk and listening to lovely music and enjoying the sun on my face ... I have never been more impressed with Buddhism and the middle way which rex mentioned as not panicking , the middle way is going to be the only way to deal with the crisis . Cheerio and keep up the great work Nate ❤
@gmw3083
@gmw3083 Год назад
Nora is correct we are at the beginning of microbiotic revolution. Mainly because big science is still preoccupied with the Copernican revolution which is a nonsensical distraction. Rex couldn't help but mention it as being relevant, when it's just another religion that will eventually be tossed. The solar gate is the core of earth. It and everything that revolves around it are projected in the distant sky. This is play doughs cave. 93 million miles away. Sheesh.....
@casamurphy
@casamurphy Год назад
1:24:40 truth. There is a harshness to living; we can soften it but not eliminate it; accepting limits is a necessary first step.
@karunamayiholisticinc
@karunamayiholisticinc Год назад
I also liked that she said it is not just population. Being very small in population size, the pattern of consumption can still be very large. Imagine doing population control without trying to uplift ourselves from our animal nature. We expect artificial solutions always work. Just how myth of processed soya, almond milk replacing myth of animal milk. The key was education and balance but we often go extreme in vague directions. When real solutions should have been regenerative and organic holistic agriculture that invites biodiversity into these meetings.
@gmw3083
@gmw3083 Год назад
How about producers who want to put a product on the market be forced to figure out how to deal with that product at end of use. That alone would end the wasteful gadget race. Apple is apparently a 3 trillion dollar company now. The fruit of the tree of evol. Go Medieval on they assets....
@adrianmacfhearraigh4677
@adrianmacfhearraigh4677 Год назад
I am Nothing yet I am Everything, I am Everything yet I am Nothing. Profit should be a process of co-giving, not individualist taking. Thank you, great conversation ❤
@markboland1181
@markboland1181 Год назад
So how does this effect the life support system?
@adrianmacfhearraigh4677
@adrianmacfhearraigh4677 Год назад
@@markboland1181 I'm not completely sure what your question is referring to. These were comments primarily on the content of the discussion that essentially promotes the idea that 'I' can only truly profit if the 'Other' also profits i.e. co-profiting. Let me expand further. Profit in our accounting system should be a product of a co-growth, co-giving, co-nurturing symbiotic relationship rather than a one way street taking relationship which is currently simplistically rationalized within the accounting system as 'I' extracting from the 'Other' to make 'I' the most 'successful'. This is the product of the logic and architecture of our common accounting system that promotes parasitic stratified relationships between ourselves resulting in us, the collective human species, ultimately self-organizing into a super-parasite exploiting our generous host and home, Earth. Sadly, this accounting culture/habit is the product of psychic conditioning over centuries where wealth has been abstracted into tablets historically or accounting ledgers in modern times maintained within all organizations resulting in our disconnection from the true meaning of wealth, a respectful wise reciprocal relationship between the greater 'Other' and 'I'. This would have been recognized as service or work performed by the greater 'Other' to provide sources of energy in the form of necessities for 'I' to live and survive. In return to maintain balance, 'I' would reciprocate with service or work to assist with the restoration of the sources of energy. Our energy blindness is at a deeper level our blindness to this Oneness of all Life and our accountancy tools have contributed to severely striking us with this blindness with the assistance of flawed mathematics. This is why GDP, performance of stock markets, interest rates, inflation, debt, global oil prices, property prices, etc. constantly hold our narrow gaze full of self-inflicted fear, blinding us to a world of greater potential, true service, liberation, harmony and love. Such a world would be ecologically diverse and complex, performing enormous self-organized low entropy causing work resulting in minimal energy loss along with minimal energy demand from humanity. Therefore a system of accounting that is designed to report energy balanced co-profiting would contribute and assist strongly with the restoration and re-invigoration of Earth's common life support system.
@popeye747
@popeye747 10 месяцев назад
Hi Nate, A sobering and thoughtful discussion. We humans bought into a fairy tale told to us by sociopaths and psychopaths. We wanted to believe that we could escape the limitations of our habitat and nature. And in that belief we have overbuilt and over consumed our habitat such that we ourselves are no longer sustainable. The consequence will be a correction in our numbers. We can choose to correct proactively, or we can choose to correct passively. Do we want "soft pain" or do we want "hard pain"? All indications are we wiill choose the latter.
@bhavananissima2870
@bhavananissima2870 Год назад
Listened on podcast before watching RU-vid. For me this is a beautiful weaving process where the design emerges in the relationship of relationship. The dyads in the quadrats. And the movement, for me, is from That to within and amongst us. From the dead concepts to this that is so alive. Nora is an exceptional thinker of our times. Her presence and wisdom vitalises and nurtures this conversation. It is delicious to hear her over and over again as she brings Ecology to our dinner table.
@TennesseeJed
@TennesseeJed Год назад
This'll be good!
@TennesseeJed
@TennesseeJed Год назад
I am about ⅓ in, and I was wrong. This is fukin' great!
@mgb00001
@mgb00001 8 месяцев назад
Thank you Will, Nora, Rex and Nate. Very rare to witness such compassion, wisdom and clarity in unison at this critical juncture in history. Remember there is a.time for every season under heaven. Love to you all. ❤
@justcollapse5343
@justcollapse5343 Год назад
This was a terrific discussion thanks Nate. Sanity, wisdom, and intelligence. The dreadful reality of our ecological #overshoot predicament was made clear - that a radical 'contraction' of the human enterprise has become inevitable and that billions will surely suffer and die, along with the biodiverse ecosystems that once supported them, in a hitherto unprecedented global mass extinction event. Whether by prof. Joseph Tainter's definition, or by prof. Jared Diamond's definition, to call this process anything other than #collapse is to severely downplay the severity of the predicament. "Simplification" is not an adequate descriptor.
@annibjrkmann8464
@annibjrkmann8464 Год назад
I'm listening to the podcast with my girlfriend and she brought up a point to me. She didn't understand what they were talking about because she didn't know what all the words meant. I feel like this is a barrier to change because of the language barrier, what is the solution to this problem?
@thegreatsimplification
@thegreatsimplification Год назад
I don’t know. More ecological education in our society? Your girlfriend is not wrong..- this is important barrier
@annibjrkmann8464
@annibjrkmann8464 Год назад
@@thegreatsimplification My girlfriend brought up a point; do you have a podcast where people talk about these problems for the common man/girl. She thought that the podcast was mostly for people that know what is happening. She said to dumb it down for people so it's more accessible for people. Don't know if this helps, you are doing amazing work, I cried when I read overshoot, and I sometimes crie when I listened to you podcast.
@EnvironmentalCoffeehouse
@EnvironmentalCoffeehouse Год назад
@@annibjrkmann8464- your girlfriend might like us. My name is Sandy.
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
@@EnvironmentalCoffeehouse Hi Sandy. Good stuff, isn't it.👌
@EnvironmentalCoffeehouse
@EnvironmentalCoffeehouse Год назад
@@mrrecluse7002 oh yes!
@pismopleasure
@pismopleasure 11 месяцев назад
It's not just that mother's milk is healthy but that the baby is facing a lifespan that's healthy.
@robertcoutts926
@robertcoutts926 10 месяцев назад
Finally, population, the elephant in the room, the most important and powerful controlling factor of ALL things that Nate discusses HAS to be the pivot point.
@snowflakeca2079
@snowflakeca2079 10 месяцев назад
The comment in the 23rd minute is ABSOLUTELY ON POINT.
@stellarwind72
@stellarwind72 Год назад
25:00 Any environmental organization that refuses to talk about population or overshoot isn't worth their salt. 26:20 This explains why our society stumbles into one preventable disaster after another while listening to mainstream economists.
@jorgefachada6401
@jorgefachada6401 Год назад
The segment between min 28:00 and 29:40 is just so on point!
@oliviachipperfield6029
@oliviachipperfield6029 Год назад
Absolutely amazing speakers ❤ Thank you.
@kenpentel3396
@kenpentel3396 Год назад
Thank you
@carolynbrzezinski5779
@carolynbrzezinski5779 Год назад
Thank you all- Excellent discussion!
@user-gf3lw5pi4t
@user-gf3lw5pi4t 11 месяцев назад
They talk the talk but they don’t walk the walk! Do as I say not as I do ,True academics❤
@veganpundit1
@veganpundit1 3 месяца назад
We also have a population problem with the other sentient beings we commodify and consume. The blind spot many ecologists and environmentalists have, the ethics, effects and opportunity cost etc. of animal agriculture, is disappointing and disturbing. A fascinating and engaging discussion! 💚🐾✊🏼💚🌏✌️💚
@chrisjones4758
@chrisjones4758 Год назад
Excellent, thanks to all, played three times
@juliegoodhart6553
@juliegoodhart6553 11 месяцев назад
Great conversation, thank you all for coming together and sharing your diverse perspectives and approaches - I enjoyed learning from each of you.
@JaseboMonkeyRex
@JaseboMonkeyRex Год назад
Isn't one of the major issues we have to overcome in learning to live differently is overcoming the idea that there is only one CORRECT way to live ? Wasn't this feeling of righteousness one of the core ideas held in the minds of colonial explorers that led to genocide every time it came into contact with indigenous cultures ? Learning how to deal with a crisis I think is an ideal thing to think about, to discuss and then enact as the crisis unfolds ....
@cg000gc
@cg000gc Год назад
Wonderful podcast. Thank you!
@JaseboMonkeyRex
@JaseboMonkeyRex Год назад
Just finished work and now listening to the end...overthrow humanism is brilliant , and if we dont stop this self refrencing tautology of thinking, nature will do what she will do and we won't like it... I love bill reese and nora is awesome ❤ super strong finish of this episode . Nate you da man amigo ....
@deejay8ch
@deejay8ch Год назад
Great conversation. Comprehensively exploring, and in essence confirming, how hard the landing from our current Wile E Coyote suspension off the edge of the sustainability cliff will be, as opposed to how soft it could be if we had the wisdom and fortitude for something selflessly better. Thanks
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
We could officially change the name of our species from Homo Sapiens..(wise man)...to "Naked Apes". That would be an honest, and humble start.
@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220
@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220 Год назад
Watch out for the anvil..
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
@@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220 Oh yeah.
@reuireuiop0
@reuireuiop0 Год назад
Wile E. Always has that funny look of realization before the drop. Fail to see that face yet, most are still looking away dreaming about next holiday
@mrrecluse7002
@mrrecluse7002 Год назад
@@reuireuiop0 Opportunities for people to remain oblivious are endless. I recommend paying no attention to the news, even if conditions remind you of the apocalypse. Or, just go to church, where delusions usually proliferate. Even better than church, binge on Netflix. Personally, that's my favorite.
@VladBunea
@VladBunea Год назад
I may sound like a broken record, but there is one word for what is suggested in this interview: degrowth. We will have degrowth by design (unlikely), disaster (probable), or supply-side collapse of markets (likely) with classic consequences: stagflation, massive unrest etc.
@marcusvanluttmer2469
@marcusvanluttmer2469 Год назад
Brilliant, important, dark, and for the moment, still taboo. Yet try we must..
@alfredmacleod8951
@alfredmacleod8951 11 месяцев назад
Great idea this 4 inspiring persons meeting ! To be done again. Thanks Nate.
@karunamayiholisticinc
@karunamayiholisticinc Год назад
I do agree when there is a meeting on biodiversity, there should be all animal members invited the elephants, the jaguars, etc. However, I have not seen enough green solutions in place. The green laundry detergents are still expensive compared to those sold in plastic containers. Plastic containers are still cheap.
@selenefee7801
@selenefee7801 11 месяцев назад
Completly fantastic conversation with a super group of people. Ive already listened twice and shared the link to my friends.
@r.michaelfisher7930
@r.michaelfisher7930 Год назад
Ok, yes agreements are there amongst the four speakers of this great roundtable. Thanks for Nate bringing them together. What they all agreed on, which was not obvious but it was explicit, is that in times of this kind of Reality awakening, via the ecological lens in particular, is that wisdom says (so-called): "don't panic" for that won't be useful. Problem is, that is cheap advice without grounds of any real relationship with an organism (especially a naked-ape like 'humans'). When a child is in the midst of a nightmare, saying "don't panic" works about as good as trying to hand-pick the oil slick off the ocean water. Problem I see it, deeper below that they all never really got to (more on the affective register) is the Fear Problematique as a vector of grand importance in analysis and solutions--and, in the stay calm advice. There has to be serious (re-) education on the nature and role of fear, a new Fear Studies, as I have called for since before 9/11 and now we are in post-pandemic era and still scrambling to notice (or dis-notice) ourselves and our relationship with fear. Enough of the advice column talk of "don't panic"...let's get down to a serious fearanalysis of this all. Rex Weyler in 2004 interviewed me on the problem of what he called "the cheapest room" --and, how ecological discourses miss the realities of fear so often, missing thus, the elephant in the room. Weyler in this talk with his friends, also seems to have forgot this depth of what the problem is and he rather has gone to Daoism truisms but they skip off the water in sound-bytes. Too bad.
@Robert-qh3ok
@Robert-qh3ok 11 месяцев назад
thank you, thankyou...this gave me hope...
@mikeroberts4260
@mikeroberts4260 Год назад
Many excellent points. In particular, the fact that humans are a species and act like any other species, is key. Because of this, there is really no solution to the many environmental problems we've caused. We will just have to let it play out in nature. I did find it odd that, though overshoot was rightly acknowledged, there was no mention of the fact that nature deals with most overshoot events by increasing the death rate. Trying to work against nature by decreasing the birth rate, via technology (contraception and education), seems to be the only approaches that can be broached but would, itself, cause other problems.
@edithcrowther9604
@edithcrowther9604 Год назад
Although no-one mentioned that the only effective Limit to Growth is Death, the honesty of all 4 participants did kind of open the door to this obvious fact (which is hard to state openly if you have a public profile, and even if you don't). All over the planet, terrible scenes available on responsible news channels show humans hitting the Limits to Growth in migration camps or in gatherings of hopeless drug addicts (all men usually) in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and many other big cities around the world. Death calls first in rural areas - and forces humans to flock into cities, where Death still comes knocking sooner or later but at any rate later than in the ravaged countrysides and crashing forests. This is why half of Africa and Asia is now risking life and limb to get to the cities of Europe - their own cities have collapsed under the strain of rural influx within Africa and Asia. and several have run out of water for a start. The cities of Europe (already precarious) will not survive this further pressure from the planet's most invasive mammal species. Although any invasive species can appear to rule and dominate and obliterate nearly all other species (this is easiest to witness in invasive plants), in the end it too runs out of fodder by virtue of having wiped out the biodiversity that keeps all species in a kind of uneasy balance. Usually the balance of Nature is disturbed BEFORE domination takes place. For instance in the 1980s Jacques Cousteau showed the mediterranean seabed being covered in just one species - black spiny sea urchins - in certain areas where pollution had decimated biodiversity. Only the sea urchins could survive. But I bet they are not there now either. Or they won't be in the 22nd century anyway. I don't suppose they like a diet of plastic microparticles any more than frailer forms of life do, in the long run.
@user-yq2wk6yg8s
@user-yq2wk6yg8s 10 месяцев назад
This was a wonderfully interesting and stimulating discussion. I consider myself lucky to have found this channel. Even though it was necessary to have dug up some fossil fuel for that to come about. I was trying to think how we began to create this mess. It's not like anyone in the past could have stopped at some point and said, "hey that coal is dirty stuff, we should leave it in the ground and carry on working these poor horses to death, and still be hungry ourselves."
@madameblatvatsky
@madameblatvatsky Год назад
Brilliant conversation thanks. Population is a thing. Thanks for saying it. Windmills will not be a thing.
@jennysteves
@jennysteves Год назад
‘The Arrogance of Humanism’ - by Dr David Ehrenfeld. He and his wife Joan were the finest professional educators I had the enormous privilege of crossing paths with and learning from. They both changed many young lives with their wisdom, service, brilliance and kindness.
@bumblebee9337
@bumblebee9337 Год назад
Humanists are cocky and want to punch above their weight class.
@trueeagle5487
@trueeagle5487 Год назад
Sitting at the table another great book
@davidwalker2942
@davidwalker2942 5 месяцев назад
1:25:48 I completely agree. Excellent discussion. The folly of human exceptionalism and our inability to forsee, or properly evaluate, collateral consequences of new technologies brings to mind the absolute hubris involved in the extremely risky current developmental path of AI.
@caterthun4853
@caterthun4853 11 месяцев назад
I have been following the environment disaster for a lot of years. This talk is one of the best and hitting the reason correctly. I find part wrongly that part of my mind thinking the the too many people is them over there in third world countries. Actually the reason is in my rich area all around me. One thing I disagree with is that fossil fuels will last many more years.. Its probably 50 years to max 200 years.
@adrianhodgson4448
@adrianhodgson4448 Год назад
The very ontology of ecology is still struggling with the mechanistic/assembly mind frame it emerged from of (case in point). The idea of an undivided flowing wholeness (from David Bohm) is an alternative means of grappling with the awesomeness of living process that flows from an entirely different spring than the assembly/summative version of ecology. Nora is naming this, Rex is feeling it and William is sensing it analytically. I liked Carol Sanford's mentioning in her book 'indirect work' of something to the effect of how much easier it is to see a living world when we stop trying to categorize, fragment and schematize it.
@anitawong2937
@anitawong2937 Год назад
I always appreciate your podcasts and variety of perspectives your guests offer Nate, but it was the interplay between your guests here that really struck me. For me it brought forth a more emergent way of thinking about our predicament. It did reinforce my perception that we need more awareness of all these aspects so as to arrive at an ability to make decisions more wisely. I agree we need less people on this earth but to arrive there through informed choice and emancipation for women, particularly in developing countries, rather than enforcement. We probably also need to volunteraily undergo to restrict migration into wealthy countries so that we undergo the painful process of simplification in the west.
@timothyhume3741
@timothyhume3741 8 месяцев назад
I am already breeding horses. I have known all my life that this is the way of the future if, in fact, we are even going to have any future at all. Great conversation all of you. Cheers
@alcosmic
@alcosmic 6 месяцев назад
This was fantastic
@elsajohnson6663
@elsajohnson6663 Год назад
That was awesome
@lizzieconnor7
@lizzieconnor7 Год назад
Absolutely fascinating conversation. I had to look up 'tautology' to make sure that I knew what Nora meant: 'the needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word'. And it's exactly our problem in Australia at the moment, as we prepare for a Referendum to change our Constitution to allow our indigenous peoples the opportunity to provide input into government policies that until now have been impacting on them - without government or bureaucrats listening to the ideas of the people concerned (NB Nora's point about conversation being intrinsic to every ecological relationship). But the situation has become a political battlefield, with opponents of this change resorting to the needless repetition of the idea, statement, or word: 'racism'! In other words, by acknowledging that there are features of our surviving indigenous cultures that are antithetical to Australia's mainstream culture, and arguing that they need to be valued as well, the people advocating for the change are accused of 'racism' - whereas, of course, advocates identify the most vocal opponents, eg in our mainstream media, as long standing 'racists' themselves. Thank the four of you so much. I feel that I have a new perspective on the battle ahead of us ...
@hansbleuer3346
@hansbleuer3346 11 месяцев назад
The model is: Action -) Interaction by communication -) relation
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