Demonstration of pinch draw, on a 60 pound plains bow. 

Yes, its part of his push pull in the shot cycle . Plus its a snap release from the "chest" . Its unorthodox. At least in my eyes. Not sure if its a tribal thing or just his personal comfort ? (His family is Ojibwa.but father is very influenced by souix) I tried it and other ways using this bow . (The highest weight present in a plains bow) Found it easier to engage back muscles mimicking him . Couldn't do anything but use arm when trying for lack of better word, conventional ,draw cycle. I did manage to avoid string slap on wrist . Thought that was a bonus .

k m archery To me it looks more like he's drawing the bow to in front of his face? maybe collarbone height for some shots, rather than lower by the chest. (how are you defining "chest" Anything collarbone and below? Myself I'd define it as center of pectoral muscle level or thereabouts)

@@ryddragyn I always thought where ribs n sternum meet to collar bone is chest area? So that would be pectoral? But watching the video closer he lowers his head when he shoots And the draw is parallel to his collar bone . Or very close. Sometimes higher . He also leans into it Putting weight on his right leg .which is forward . That could be shooting down since the butt is close and low Plus it is on a down grade . As i said we hope to do actual testing with his bow and matching arrows. Since his is a higher weight than roland or his students have achieved.

k m archery A work that Dr Bohr cites frequently is the Hidatsa studies by Gilbert Wilson. There's a mention in the published notes about that same leaning forward technique. If I recall right. One major reason drawing to the chest is usually frowned upon is that it it causes an unstable bow shoulder position (humerus to collarbone out of line, hunched up bow shoulder etc). Gao Ying rails against it, as does Ascham. As truthful as their criticism is, it all assumes that the archer standing straight up and down. When the archer leans forward into the bow, it creates the "good angle" with the bow arm and shoulder. Such that drawing to the upper chest/lower neck is realistically okay IMHO. (Though I still prefer mouth or ear level myself.) I just found this link. It has some interesting photo comparisons. Look at how the Hadza shoot, versus the non-archer tourists. The Hadza lean forward, and keep the bow shoulder stable. The hapless tourists are highly unstable by comparison, and draw far too low. www.flickr.com/photos/drtoonz/35354038076/in/photostream

@@ryddragyn I just tried to replicate those draws. I am confident their backs are engaged. I would describe those as drawing to chest . Or maybe shoulder or armpit. Its really close . I find from watching clubmates or competitors visiting for 3d events .most Trad shooters lean into the shot . Haven't seen anything like this . You cite the hadza people often . Have you read or heard any kind of average draw weight range on their bows ? Draw length . That picture with examples of arrows n points those seem long .

Not sure how to react to that first sentence. Since several cultures use or used pinch draw . Or it's tertiary draw cousin . It's a still a common draw in Papua new guinea. My discomfort with the sentence. Is it implies the cultures that use this technique are or were children. Which is a common colonial reference Used against these cultures . So Not sure if you did this on purpose ? or it's just you relating your experience as a kid making bows n shooting ? As noted in second sentence. Regardless, how it reads is kinda paternal and colonialist. As you are aware archery is a near universal technology. Invented, reinvented , adapted,n adopted By virtually every culture over the existence of man . It's as a sport, still being tinkered with . there are a few cultures still using archery for substance hunting ,it's rare but still real tool of living culture. So pinch draw or all forms of draw are a reflection of time place n technology. To fit the needs n circumstances of the people using the tool . Do a search on you tube . Papua New Guinea flat string archery . It's really cool

@@kmarchery Definitely didn't think that far and was just relating to childhood. It was nice to learn that I wasn't shooting the bow "wrong" back then as I thought till this video.

@@arhael3594 I wasn't sure . Either . Glad it was ment as a childhood memory.

I tried it, couldn't shoot it pinch draw. So used tertiary draw . I think being that these bows in a hunting application. Ie bison either from horse or in a run/pen or stalking close ( i am learning ) With camouflage (skin of some kind) The distances shot are not far. So with heavy short ,stiff arrows not a lot of oscillation would happen?? Archers would adjust their aim accordingly ?? Maybe ? My camera's only go to 400 fps . But hope to try and test for stuff like that this summer . That and penetration. Fingers crossed the u of w . Will help buy the ballistics gel or a pig . We have access to hides, deer n bison . That and if the safety officer will let us .lol . Cheers

k m archery Yes, up close it's completely possible to adjust aim accordingly. Still not my favorite though. Tertiary seems to have been the norm from the Plains all the way to the East Coast.

@@ryddragyn Both pinch and tertiary. Feel natural. When ever i hand a bow to new archers .its one of those two, Or all four to the second knuckle. 😉. So it makes sense it would be common . Especially with self bows and large nocks .

Yes, but with the arrow on the right side you could shoot it like a pellet bow to give clearance to the arrow. Myself being a proper academic, it goes without saying I've never tried it myself. I wonder if a heavily setback handle would assist with that.

Thats a good question. My camera isn't close enough . Or right angle to see that . Didnt think to ask . When i tried it was not using those arrows. And was concentrating on not getting string slap . Need to pay more attention to see if it does .

A properly made period acurate arrow shaft will be double taperd so the flared knock shouldnt be an issue if made the old way.

They most certainly do if the same arrow would just barely clear the bow if it were streamlined. The solution is to put huge feathers and shoot form a close distance. I consider short bows as an improvement over a hand thrown knife, not a degenerated form of a longbow. From that point they seem majestic.

Hes rusty . No calluses to help . I tried it . Was easier if i used tertiary draw .

It did . He hasn't shot for a while So the calluses he would have built up are not there . So his thumb and inside of first knuckle on pointer finger Definitely hurt .skin was getting ŕed

probably pulling somewhere in the 40's

Since the bow is 60@24 Probably not 40s But it's possible This style of bow stacks hard And it definitely has a stop I'm not going farther

It was intersting to see a new style . I tried it . I used tertiary draw . Not pinch draw .

Its 60@22 . So his draw is about that. So yes . Plains bows tend to be very short draw lengths . Its really wierd to watch . I shoot a korean trad bow using over draw . So 30 or so . Seeing such a short draw is educational. Hence my participation in the field course on plains bows .☺

The bow wasnt built to go 22 it just ended up there . These bows won't do 28 draw . They stop . If you got to 28 it would be in two or more pieces . Its fascinating in so many ways . Each piece of wood and how they are shaped ,its hit or miss whats going to happen . The professor and student haven't been able get this high in draw weight . But of the bows being shaped in this field course . 25 is the longest draw . With a brace height of only 4 inches. Its eye opening . Its difficult to film and shape a bow so i decided to film instead so i don't have one on the go .

So the weight on his pinch is roughly the 60 pounds . He is very consistent. But he is rusty . So there is minor variation in his draw . He is definitely over 20 each time with a couple just past the 22. Maybe half or 3/4 . Usually in the first or second shot . Though as he and the bow warmed up it was better . Though his lack of calluses was not helping .

k m archery gotcha and yes I bet his fingers were sore.

@@sigmanarchery54 At some point we will do draw curve tests . Fingers crossed we can test cheyanne's bow since its the highest weight. He traded some bead work with a bowyer out of Tennessee for it I have the name recorded somewhere. The family on this ranch are deep ingrained in plains buffalo culture and are all artisans (my choice of description ) Cheyanne makes beautiful beadwork n quillwork . And his brain tanned hides are so soft .

k m archery. I bet you need to see if you could get him to make us a quiver or arm guard that would be really cool, I be wanting for that video.

Plains short bows do not have a long draw They stop , (depending on the bow Since they are all unique ) At between 20 and 24 inches . (Some might go farther ,but not likely by much ) So max draw is "usually" 24 inches . Been awhile since I visited with Cheyenne But if I remember right this bow is 60@22. So he has roughly 60 on his fingers .

It's an interesting question. One I will have to look into when I can . I don't think it will be quite that dramatic of a difference though . Initial energy would be one point . How much energy it loses and how fast it loses it would be next point . The few tests I've done with my bows ( don't own a plains short bow ) don't show significant difference in initial speed/energy variation . Using different styles of bows same arrow /grain per pound And as close as possible draw length. But . Those tests where all 41@26 On my fingers ( as close to consistent as I can shoot at least ,shooting 10 arrows than averaging the Chrono speed and calculating the Jules ) I need to find a short bow that's 41@20 and see what initial speed/energy would be ? To compare . I suspect , the initial speed and energy might not be to big a difference. But over say 10 meters or 11 yards ( rounded off) I think the difference in power stroke would show a larger difference. Still not sure if variation would be 33 percent as in your comment . I will do a search see if anyone else has looked into it . I've seen some testing . But I don't remember This specific idea . Of 20 inch power stroke v 28 . Crossbow tests I've see lots of those Todds workshop might be a good place to look .

@@kmarcheryin hindsight a shorter native american bow may have less total energy storage than a bow you long draw but would have more caste efficiency. In other words maybe more if it total stored energy would go to the arrow even a light weight arrow…. But i dont know.

@@pyramid_scheme_termination3655 Plains short bows Are not very efficient They are a product of time, place And need . I haven't gotten around to making one yet I really need to make time to do that . Watching the students make their bows n arrows over the past few years . Has been eye opening to the time cost To make them Giving understanding to the cost in the past of this technology. The on going argument that Going back to land making a "survival" bow Is easy .or "primitive" archery is easy It's modern bias n sales of myths . I've seen student bows break I've seen how long they worked Then crack . This is an art and within the economy of the plains first Nation it was a valuable skill . Its fascinating to see in economic terms Vs our modern sport with global access to technologies from all eras to debate on efficiency and adaptations over time n place . So iny view plains shorts bows Are not "great " bows They are good bows for their application Using one is a challenge And a ton of fun .