Here I discuss about weapon wheels in a more thorough way after initially writing them off. Song: Rave Racer - EXH* Notes My Twitter: / chaser_tech My Twitch: / chaser_tech
I really respect the honesty and willingness to give this another chance. Not enough creators do that these days. I believe you've mentioned you looking to check out Ultrakill in the future, so it's worth pointing out here that the game's last major update (Act 2) added a weapon wheel to the game. The input it's on is normally a "Swap to Previous Weapon" button, but holding that button down brings up a weapon wheel, which slows game time a bit to help you switch quickly. I believe this was intended to assist players that use controller to play the game, as it was difficult to swap weapons as easily as keyboard and mouse could. It does also help players that aren't used to pressing the number keys for weapon swapping on keyboard, so there's a little something for everyone there. Can't wait to see what other topics you choose to take on.
Unfortunately the "tap for previous weapon, hold for wheel" method is a handicap for controller players. It offers both inputs, but forcing a delay on the wheel to distinguish them makes wheel swaps always slower than they could be.
Good thoughts, I always liked the idea, and with how many options you get for stuff like camera, control layouts, and equipment, I definitely wish they implemented it into 5SE at least. As you said, letting the player use the stick to select a direction before even pressing the switch button would essentially allow instant swapping without having to time the button presses. Ideally of course, you'd want options for different input priorities for those who'd prefer it the other way around, in order to maneuver the camera better etc.
Love when a content creator develops their opinion and explores alternatives to their own like this. Plus it's a good breakdown of how this should be handled in the future if it returns!
Glad you gave this another look. Coming off Shulk who has a hybrid of both cycling and selectable options, Astral Chain which has an optional pause if you are slow while holding and also unironically liking the Weapon Wheel in DMC3 Switch. I think there is a lot of potential but it should be more tweakable since you only have so many saves. The DMC3 mods do have a solution which probably solves this, but officially, it leaves a bit to be desired. Like we can actually have limited weapons in Freestyle but you need to exploit a bug which might need an unpatch now... Or maybe I can get some notches like Melee since Joycons don't play nice with pauseless wheels. My main issue is that DMC3 Switch has a lot of cases where you need to hold a button (or insane mashing as I'm a fool who should stop using Turbo). With the wheel AND weapons, you might be holding almost any button at any time which is very crowded. Maybe you won't need all of them at once but the only things that have no benefit from being held are L3, R3, Plus and Minus.
Takes a lot to own up to being wrong or just admitting that you wrote something off too fast. I don't even want a weapon wheel in DMC personally, but your points here were really well represented and like you said, as long as it's optional then it's fine! Great work Chaser.
I think the wheel in Switch DMC3 is not that bad, as long as you can still tap it to swap. I only use the wheel if it takes more than 2 taps to reach my desired weapon.
Glad you decided to take another look at them, because wheels can be beneficial like you said. The biggest problem is definitely radial wheels though, and the Ratchet and Clank wheel is actually a genius idea. This video pretty accurately sums up my comment on the last video.
Yeah I figured it would be fair if I gave it another go. Overall I think it could definitely work but there needs to be some options so you can customize how it works.
I think even if it's not handled perfectly, a weapon wheel as an optional feature would be nice. Maybe going even further (and maybe disabling this on higher difficulties) having the option to turn on slow motion when activating the weapon wheel would help new players string cool looking combos without needing to get super experienced with the execution quite yet.
3:13 I honestly feel that a big problem with the radial wheel in dmc 3 switch is that the surface area for the inputs on the wheel is too large and some directions overlap. 4:13 In deadlocked, the wheel has proper spacing and is more like a weapon box so it's much easier to choose exactly what you want and as you said, being able to hold the direction beforehand is genius. Loving the content, Chase
2:04 It's kinda funny how a mod (ddmk) made by one person single handely have this option to not use certain weapons while still using more than 2, and a port made by capcom doesn't.
I can confirm that what you said in this video is true because in DMC:HDC on PC you can use DDMK to customize your entire loadout and bring only whatever you want while still using a Weapon Wheel option. For example you can go into any mission only using the main 4 styles rather than all 6 (or 7 if you use the secret Dark Slayer style) and carry only Rebellion, Cerberus & Beowulf, as well as deciding the order of the weapons you want in the weapon wheel, like having Beowulf before Cerberus, etc. So you are very right in that combining both systems (weapon wheel from DMC3:Switch and customized loadouts from DMC5) would make the best out of both worlds.
I didn't know they added a wheel to DMC3 on Switch. I had pitched that when playing through DMC5 because of it's larger roster, but the idea was laughed at for making the controls overly complicated. *_"You can still swap through your weapons normally by pressing the weapon swap buttons instead of holding it"_* Ehhh. It's great cycling is still offered, but this really needs to be a formal option. This method always forces a delay on the wheel to separate a tap/hold input, which limits how fast you can swap through wheels. You have to wait for the delay or be punished by accidently getting the wrong weapon if you tried to switch too fast. A toggle for wheel-only swapping, or a slider for the delay would address this. Delay slider would be better to finely control one way or the other. This is in issue with both DOOM Eternal(has a delay option, but doesn't allow 0ms) and Sunset Overdrive. There is an alternative method too, but it depends on the game how comfortable it is. You can bind the 'center' of the wheel as a cycle, so neutral presses always just cycle, but if a direction is pressed it will prioritize that. That lets both the wheel and cycling be instant. My favorite wheel is probably from the recent Serious Sam versions. It's a normal wheel, but registers instantly, and swaps on highlight. It automatically slows down time unfortunately, but it's the most responsive implementation I've seen. It's not useful for DMC, but you can use the triggers to cycle between weapon types while the wheel is open. No delay on that either, so you can swap between 16 weapons basically instantly.
Weapon wheel is a bit whacky in joy cons since u need to use stick to select weapons,but if u see japanese players using it you'll notice it's really useful
I don´t have access to a switch, so cannot test how well it works, but your initial critique of the wheel still surprised me. I can believe it lacks accuracy. It is a shame the wheel is not customizable and that no such option was added to DMC5, as I feel that it would maybe work better with the 4 main arms and 4 main guns being assigned to the 4 cardinal directions. It could be the same for DMC3, with the 5th weapon being assigned to clicking the stick in. BTW, how do you select quicksilver and doppelganger on the switch? Do they have double direction inputs?
Having cardinal directions would work optimally imo. I think the biggest question is what control stick should you use. Having the right stick being able to control the the wheel would mean that you couldn't use the face buttons. The left stick might actually work better but I'm not sure. Also, yeah it's double direction inputs.
Weapon wheels in Doom Eternal are still slow as hell. that's why I made a controller "mod" to make it button based and uploaded a steam guide on how to implement it for controllers. (example: LB+ RT=Meathook shotgun, LB+B button=plasma rifle, ect) I really wish that Devil May Cry would also implement style switching in this fashion.
The prolems is any weapon wheel works with a slow mo or a pause because of the sheer amount of options you can have on top of having to point your stick towards it. As you said you can totally mess up at any time, especially if you are fighting fast. Imo, a weapon wheel doesn't work with DMC's philosophy of going fast at all.
My main issue will still be giving acsess to every weapon, dmc 3 was designed around carefully selecting your weapon and your style defining your playthough free style juest removes that as future games do
Thanks for the video. I was thinking that maybe you could try (if you haven't already) the Batman: Arkham series by Rocksteady. Solid games in their own right, they work with a weapon wheel, and as the games go on, they implement some new mechanics that allow the combat encounters to be more fluid, like for example a sort-of quick-gadget option that allows you to use gadgets mid fight
DmC handled five weapons just fine. The only problem was requirement to hold triggers but it could be easily fixed. In theory DmC control scheme could implement even the styles from the original games and that would be more convenient than controls from DMC V.
I would say DMC5 should've gone with a weapon wheel for Dante. The bar works best with three or two weapons because all weapons are a button press away, but four and more and there'll always be a weapon out of reach. Juggling so many weapons already requires a certain skill level, so I don't see a problem applying another skill barrier which would compliment the former.
Why though? It already has customizable weapon bar for you to combine weapons that work well with each other, and you can just double tap, because of how fast dante switches, or in the case of caviliere with the amount of times it takes to grind, it isn't even an issue. The only time I have trouble with it is if I panic, but that's my fault.
@@insertnamehere658 Why, you ask? Because I think it would be an improvement, what other reason do I need? Even if you think the current system is good enough there's no denying that the weapon wheel is more efficient, and becomes increasingly so the more weapons in your arsenal. In that case *why not* advocate for the more efficient system?
@@vadandrumist1670 because I don't find it to be as responsive? I guess it's down to preference. There's no denying the upsides of both. Maybe an option?
another alternative is simply having multiple custom sets that are associated with each style. hell, they can go a step further and let you customize these sets into their own wheel that is placed on various Verses (Bayo terminology, don't know what they're called in DMC), letting the wheels dynamically switch based on your progress through the level. this would only be for replays of a level, and not the initial play through of course.
I think weapon wheels work in shooters on console really, because there's only one wheel so you can memorize the locations on the wheel and just flick the stick. And there's just generally less going, in terms of inputs, in a shooter compared to something like dmc. This doesn't work in dmc imo because there's two wheels and there's way too much going on. It would be cool for an alternate way of playing for casuals though. Maybe it could have am option to slow the game down or something
weapon wheels suck, but it would be col to have an option in some games. If the game is slow, a weapon wheel is useful. But if the game is fast a weapon wheel is stupid
I love discussions about controls schemes, can't really say I have much experience with DMC, tho... A few things: The Analog Stick is better suited for Cardinal and Ordinal directions, so Weapon Wheels works best if it has 8 or 4 segments, regardless of how many items you actually have. It's easier to know exactly where those segments are because you can mentally divide the analog stick in 4 Cardinal directions (Up, Down, Left, Right), and then further divide it in two to get the Ordinal ones. DMC3 Switch needs you to divide into 5, it is not really intuitive even if you can theoretically get good at it. I can even complain about the way they decided to represent the wheel, each item is stylized in a way so that the inner circle doesn't match the outer circle, further making it not clear where to point the analog stick. Regardless of all of that, a Weapon Wheel isn't the best option for DMC. Chorded Item Selection is. Jibbsmart explains way better than I could here: gyrowiki.jibbsmart.com/blog:7-building-blocks-for-better-controls The gist is that you map a button (usually a shoulder button) so that while held, it modifies the function of the face buttons. The advantage over a traditional Weapon Wheel with an Analog Stick is that you can just think of "RB+Y(same time or helding RB First)", without having to wait for the UI to show up, you can have 8 items with this by mapping certain items to double tap, like "RB+Y" is a different item than "RB+Y+Y". The Modifier button can also have a different function by just taping it. I watched your previous videos and I'm curious what you'd think about using Style Switching by mapping the d-pad to face buttons while a shoulder button is held.
Finally, still have to explain the DMC3. Switching styles at any time like this is in conflict with DMC3. Why do DMC3 have to do like 4 and 5?To show hand speed does not mean high level. In a hurry, go to BD to show such a style that can be switched at any time to show the combo, why not first have a good understanding of each level design and enemy from the original style, but just hurriedly show the so-called " What about personal style?
