Did God Intend for Predators to Exist? w/  

I always felt that mosquitoes were a result of the Satanic fall 😅

The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den. They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Like some others have said, Gavin's line of thinking on this was very interesting. I think it would be awesome to have a longer conversation on this topic with him and another guest. Animal suffering before the Fall is by far one of the biggest stumbling blocks to me, even as a Catholic.

I loved this topic & found Gavin’s line of thinking intriguing. I really wish he hadn’t cut himself short. You should think about revisiting it in a future video with Gavin & maybe Jimmy Aiken. Jimmy is one of the most knowledgeable & interesting speakers in regard to Catholic theology & animals.

I remember CS Lewis talking about the problem of animal suffering. And also comparing the domestication of animals to our relationship with God. Dogs and cats took on part of human nature when they got close to us.

This issue torments me so much as Christian. It tests my faith probably more than any other issue. I often pray about this issue, just as as I pray that all people who have been tortured somehow experienced divine intervention in their suffering (such as going into a state of terror-numbing and pain-numbing shock) that the rest of us could not see. AS CHRISTIANS, I BELIEVE IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO ABSTAIN FROM AND PROTEST AGAINST ALL CRUELTY TOWARDS ANIMALS SUCH AS COOKING OR EATING ANIMALS ALIVE, FEEDING LIVE ANIMALS TO OTHER ANIMALS, OR KILLING ANIMALS IN AN UNNECESSARILY CRUEL MANNER.

Animals are affected by the fall, as Paul said all creation was reduced in majesty due to the sin of Adam

Wow. I am so thankful for Gavin pointing out the shortcoming of appeal to natural laws, and how it’s undermines any belief in heaven. I was thinking these same things (and have thought it for some time) as Trent was speaking, feeling frustrated that I don’t ever see anyone take a new heaven/new earth into consideration. And then here comes Gavin doing exactly that!

I never thought predators existed before the fall. I just assumed they ate vegetation and certain animals adapted post fall. Also something I haven't sat and thought much on.

I always saw animal suffering as a teaching tool to humans to understand sin before it comes to them. Examples, theft, rape, murder. It would make death and disease whole lot harder to take if you've never witnessed it before in anything. Also it makes it harder if there were lesser intellectual and soulless beings alive that are immune to such things. The complaint would then be why does this lowly mouse live free of death and hardship while my grandmother lays here dying?

The data point that always gets missed in this debate is the Book of Job, where God outright brags about how awesome His predators are. My own inclination is to think that pain wasn't supposed to be the terrible thing we experience it as, but the Fall destroyed humanity's ability to cope with it. The world is meant to reflect God in its cycles of death and resurrection, and pain is an inevitable part of that.

I wish that you linked the show that you spoke about at the end of the clip.

Animals do not have a capacity to ask :why Therefore agony is out of question. Pain yes. Suffering is in a human meaning atributed to us

“Ours is not to wonder why. Ours is just to do or die.” ― Lord Tennyson Alfred Animals do not understand duty.

For me the problem of evil starts at the fall and the sin that enters the world effects all of creation, the earth, animals and humans.

My theory is multi faceted, stemming from the fact that our understanding of God's intentions are limited. Firstly, pain is not inherently Good or Evil. Pain simply is, playing an important role of being a stimulus while living. Pain is really only Evil in the context of intent. In large part, animals only inflict pain as a consequence of survival. The uncommon cases of some species that "play" with prey or otherwise inflect pain for non-survival means can be explained as occurring post-Humanity falls. Secondly, animals are not made in the image of God and as far as we can tell, probably do not have a soul in the same way we do. The natural cycle of predator and prey for animals may be perfectly fine in the eyes of God. We don't even really know if pain/suffering quite mean the same thing in regards to animals. Although this leads me to the next point... Third: Many of us would likely agree that it seems morally wrong to inflict pain or suffering to any animal if it can be avoided. There does seem to be some inherent moral thread that nags at our conscious when it comes to animals. I think this has to do with the fact that in Genesis 1, God essentially instructed us to take care of the world and its inhabitants. It is our moral duty to take care of animals, which would instill that moral feeling of avoiding undue harm.

The possibility of death and/or pain before the fall answers my question about why Adam and Eve didn't seem to not know what death was when God told them they would die if they are from the forbidden tree.

Efficiency is for finite creatures that don’t have forever to make things happen but God has no need for efficiency since he is forever.

Maybe God knew exactly what he was doing. The death of one, fed another, that fed another, that regenerated the earth, then restarted the cycle again.... which is good and just...even if it doesn't adhere to a weird, distorted sense of self-important perceptions of perceived suffering that you randomly label as injustice?

The kind of question that never popped into my mind hehehe

I've gotta say that the Problem of Animal Suffering is one argument that does not resonate with me at all, but I recognize the intellectual challenge it poses to theism. I think Christian theology is more concern about the well-being of humans, and for that we have plenty of convincing theodicies that are rooted in the Bible. And that's where I sit, -more concerned about the well-being of humans than animals. I do not want to undermine animal suffering, however, and do believe we should treat them with compassion.

Now I want barbecue

I think that the cycle of life, as crazy as it seems, can be explained by Lion King. It was necessary for animals to eat and be eaten, to consume and be consumed to bring order to the material world they're in. It's the same way with cosmological phenomenon where stars are born through other exploding stars, gets bigger, becomes white, blue, yellow then red and explodes again. And the reason why they (animals) feel pain is because it is, as Trent said, instinct for survival which was necessary so they can perish at the right place at the right time where it would serve its purpose. This is what set humans apart in the beginning before the fall, plain animal instinct vs the will of the soul. And yet after the fall of man kind, this pain is now transformed (physical, emotional and spiritual) into nourishment not to sustain the material but the spiritual.

Animals were vegetarian before the fall because in the Douay Rheims version of the Bible it says that God gave the creatures of the earth plants herbs as their meat Genesis chapter 2 or 3

There is evidence that animals experience trauma induced dissociation when in the jaws of a predator, and therefore experience no (or little) pain. And animals are much better at recovering from trauma than humans - they literally shake it off - and don't experience PTSD from near death experiences like humans do. The name "fall" is so misleading, who came up with that? I argue that "the fall" IS the process of evolution to the point of consciousness - as pre-humans developed in intelligence and greater awareness of themselves and of their future and of their mortality. They "died" when they became conscious of their own death. Let the first chapters of Genesis be what they are - a description of a vision or dream where the author is interpreting the meaning of creation from a few scenes of his dream - it is not a description of the process. We evolved from animals to the point of consciousness = the process of growing in intelligence = reaching for knowledge = babies heads getting bigger and greater pain in childbirth = God breathing life into us = made in His image = becoming aware of mortality, good and evil. That's my take as a Christian trying to bring together understanding gained from time spent in fields of ecology, theology and psychology.

Thank you.

St Athanasius' "On The Creation" speaks of death before the Fall too.

Without God, we become like animals with predators and prey, and life for the weak become meaningless. With God there is love for the weak, and the sanctity of life!

I like to ask Old Earthers this, "Will Komodo Dragons eat pigs and monkeys, alive and screaming (as they do now), in the eternal estate? If you say, "yes" you probably haven't thought about it very long.

You need to start with the understanding pain and suffering are not intrinsically bad or evil. They serve a purpose. Do not let the atheist make you defend that they are.

I always figured the spiritual world isn't bound by time as we understand it, and things at one point of a "timeline" as we view things could easily affect things "prior" 🤷‍♂️

For a Catholic layman’s thoughts on the topic I recommend Tolkien’s Silmarillion.

The human fall caused animal suffering, in my opinion. Not Satan's fall. "The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them. Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever- ” therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life." (Genesis 3:14-24) It is a consequence outlined more broadly in the Noheic Covenant "And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man. “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. And you, be fruitful and multiply, increase greatly on the earth and multiply in it.” Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, “Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth.”" (Genesis 9:1-17) Paul also reflects on this: "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." (Romans 8:18-23)

When we were created, we were made responsible for governing (having authority over) the animal world, and our sin and wickedness brings that onto them as well. Holy people have well mannered animals, wickedly mean and cruel people have animals like them. As the master goes, so will the student (or animal in this case). In Christ, Andrew

I really don't understand why these guys think animal suffering is evil. Animals don't have consciousness. They are not made in the image of God. And in Genesis 1 man is commanded to subdue the earth and the beasts on it, which in conjunction with parts of the law describing what animals we can eat clearly implies man is meant to eat animals - so why shouldn't other animals do the same? I really don't get it. Is it just because some animals are cute?

some animals eat plants. if left unchecked they'd run amuck and eat everything until there was soil erosion and no plants and they'd all die. predators keep them in check. I enjoy watching the Discovery Channel where they show a baby elephant being eaten by lions. it's nature. I don't know. One day the lion will lie down with the lamb, at least Elvis thinks so.

You should read buddhism too. Is the Devil at the beginning of time have an instinct to extinct something including what exist in itself (devil)?

Did the fall of man introduce physical death of the body or just death of the soul? Did Adam and Eve not die when they took the fruit, as God predicted? You shall surely die He said. And were they not brought back to life by Jesus Christ? I feel death and "suffering" are a part of this life. Suffering must have existed before the creation of the universe, or was God glad when the angels fell? Of course not, it pained Him. We have been made alive again through baptism and the sacrifice of Christ, repairing the damage brought upon us by our first parents. But our bodies will die anyway.

We eat animals, animals eat other animals

Animals don’t suffer pain to the degree that humans do. I have seen herd animals with a large chunk of their side missing, due to accident or predators, seemingly casually, yet grazing still. Carnivorous animals, and dinosaurs long before, are clearly teleologically and physiologically determined to eat each other, essential to their food chain. I see nothing amiss with that. If the carnivorous appetite is disordered, then the disordering catalytic event was prior or concurrent with their evolution i.e. the Demonic Rebellion and Fall. But I have no issue with their appetites as I have no issue with my own. The Risen Lord caught, cooked and ate fish.

Animal pain and suffering? What else are they going to eat? Animals don't typically let their prey suffer, they bring them down as quickly as possible. They're hungry. As we humans typically do when we hunt animals. Hungry or not.

first!

Being an atheist because you think animals suffer is the most new age nonsensical thing I've heard.