Did Mary and Joseph Have a Valid Marriage? | Fr. Gregory Pine O.P. 

Please pray for me. Prayers all we need truly need in this world. My husband passed away years ago. I’m a single mother. I feel so alone. I have two beautiful sons, both of my sons are autistic. I’m just overwhelmed. Heavenly Father I know you don’t give us no more than we can handle. But Lord have mercy on me. I need a breakthrough. Since covid I can’t seem to get back on my feet. I was fired from my job for declining the vaccine. I declined due to my lupus and I also have a heart condition. I’m waitressing but not making nearly enough. Every month is a struggle not to end up on the streets with my children. I’m struggling putting groceries in my refrigerator. Struggling to pay rent. But, thankfully God has provided this far. I know and have faith he will continue. Faith over fear. We should praise God even in hard times. I love you Jesus! Thank you Heavenly Father.

I was talking to a Muslim recently about this! They care a lot about Mary so this was an important question for him.

Strong beard game, padre 💪

thanks a lot , Fr Mike ! I've wondered about this for a long time ..

There's also precedent in that a woman was allowed to take a bow of celibacy provided her husband or father did not object, so a wife being celibate because of a vow was not unheard of.

Father seemed to overlook the situation of Josephite/spiritual marriages where the couple enters, exchaning bodily rights, but agreeing to abstain from sexual intercourse. Saints have done this, and St Francis de Sales commends the practice. They *may* consummate, but their intention going in is not to.

Thx i understand annulment

I think the approach taken of "Theology of the Body" by John Paul II would be appropriate. He spent the first 5 years of his Pontificate on the meaning of marriage in his weekly addresses (1979-1984), so they should not be ignored. JPII explained how Adam and Eve were an incarnation or reflection of the Trinity on earth. He used the Latin term "Communio Personarum" or Community of Persons. The "love" between and man and woman procreates a third person. Or hopefully more. In heaven, the Father generates the Son and their perfect love 'spirates' a third person, the Holy Spirit. It is notable that Aquinas, for whatever reason, doesn't point this out in the Summa. In the human condition - as CS Lewis observes in "The Four Loves" - each type of love needs to be taken up into charity to find its perfection. According to the great Trappist monk, Dom Eugene Boylan, in his classic "This Tremendous Lover" - according to God's original plan - Adam and Eve would have been assumed into heaven after their period of probation had ADAM not sinned (original sin is passed on through the male only). And so would their children if they too had not sinned. But the protogospel of Genesis 3:15 promises a redeemer through his mother, who will be regenerators of the human race. Jesus and Mary, the new Adam and Eve, will replace the fallen pair. The purpose of marriage remained the same before and after the fall: to create souls for heaven. And to glorify God by sharing his nature with his creatures. Only now since "Bonum diffusivum sui est" [goodness seeks to diffuse itself] God will be able to glorify himself even more through his goodness by redeeming a miserable race of creatures (i.e. us). It had to be that way because angelic natures are not redeemable. A redeemer for them would be impossible. Clearly, the highest end of marriage is to produce citizens of heaven with whom God can share his glory. After the fall, the plan had to be modified because of the need for a redeemer. The original command of "Go forth and fill the earth" of Genesis 1:28 (i.e. marriage) needed divine intervention - as the human race was now incapable of heaven because of original sin. That intervention occurred through the new Adam and Eve. The love of Joseph and Mary was surely more intense and perfect than that of any other couple in history. Because it was ordered to and empowered by their love of God (charity). Doing God's will is the highest possible love of all - the end of all true loves as Aquinas and CS Lewis point out. Love is only "love' when it ordered to charity. So yes, Mary and Joseph were "more married" than say the parents, of Doctor of the Church, St. Catherine of Sienna, who had (count 'em) 25 children.

💍

Who wants this 2009 2010 ... Ledger?

Hello from Pennsyltucky

Father, does that mean someone who is handicapped/ paralyzed from the waist down cannot marry into the catholic Church ?

The *only* case I can think of that'd be a valid annullment is in the television show 'Arrow' where not only *one* but *both* members of the "marriage" were coerced into the marriage; but even that would require that at least one, if not *both* members of the "happy couple" were to bring this matter to the "Church tribunals" for a hearing in that case. Yet my argument stands, in this regard: if one, or Heaven forbid, *both* husband and wife are threatened to coerce their consent to the marriage: IT IS NOT A MARRIGE, but something truly horrid, an act of marital rape of *both* of the couple, by the one, or ones, who coerced them. "Arrow" is a fantasy story, basically the hero's a "Robin Hood" of sorts; but the element of coerced marriage is what I was drawing on; yet if we even permit sex to be an element of focus; we risk being intoxicated on lust- and to enter into a marriage in that mindset is far worse: it is basically something of Hell's culture, as Tobit makes abundantly clear; besides, why even permit ourselves to allow our focus to be on physical intimacy? Now granted, it is to be within set bounderies, including freely consented to by both husband and wife, and most importantly, open to children- as in the end, the primary and sole focus of marriage is the continuation of the species, the spouses are secondary in that regard; yet vital for the proper character formation of the children. The essence of this is a defense of propriety and virtue; not even allowing the kind of forbidden lust to enter into our minds; lest we as individuals even end up, in the end, sexually abusing our spouses as He so rightly condemned as a doorway to Hell; and "marital rape" really does cut it for "Hell" as a category in the extreme.

Quite the story. 🤔

Listening to Father Pine makes me realize, use and display your God-given talents, don't make yourself appear useless to be someone's punching bag, redeem yourself. Strike a balance between egoism and humility. Too many narcissists think any attention you receive is a slight on them, just makes them look infantile and immature. People with high levels of narcissism have infected the church and are a great evil, separate the wheat from the chaff. It's almost always people in positions of influence and/or authority who abuse their platform.

If a husband and wife with children divorce and receive an annulment, are the children then considered illegitimate?

Luke 2:48

If two Catholics have a proper Catholic ceremony but are in a country that doesn't recognize religious marriage as legally binding, will they be living in sin if they do not go to the Tribunal for a civil marriage? If the country recognizes "domestic partnerships (hetero)" as having legal status does that matter?

How does this fit with Josephite marriages?

Not the most flattering frame of Fr. Gregory for the thumbnail.

Jesus would never have picked them to be His parents unless He knew they were behaving themselves; so of course their marriage was valid- always was in fact, and that comes out of HIs teachings that shape the Catholic teaching on marriage; any other stance is preposterous in the extreme.

So if a woman is past menopause or has had a hysterectomy does this mean that she should not get married because she cannot procreate?

Virginity for the unmarried is a beautiful thing and precious in the sight of God. Likewise, sex in the bonds of a loving marriage is beautiful and precious to God. Please consider the words of your King: *"But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." 1 Corinthians 7:2-5*

Evening star says +248 kalu kalabah

I was reading I think about Pentecost in The Book of Acts, can't remember the exact verse. I was reading The Jerusalem Bible in Italian and it specifically said "Maria ed i fratelli di Gesù., ed i11discepoli" "Mary and the BROTHERS of Jesus, and the 11 Disciples." I could be wrong about which passage but I am certain about the actual sentence. It clearly separates "brothers" from "Disciples." Why would Mary have to remain "ever virgin" AFTER Jesus was born?

First

I was raised Catholic. Drifted away from practice in my teens as my mom stopped going, but never left the Church. Married at 18 to someone who wasn’t Catholic. Divorced at 30. Declaration of non-Canonical form says it wasn’t a true marriage. After being married (19) became a Protestant and at 29 had a crisis of faith concerning Protestant Theology which I found problematic. Reading Newman and Chesterton led back to the Catholic Church, which led me to look into the non-Canonical declaration that I mentioned above. Marian doctrines always give me trouble. I don’t see why these things about her perpetual virginity are necessary and to call them infallible Church doctrine is tough because I think she and Joseph probably had sex in their marriage and the Church is likely wrong about this. Not a good Catholic or a Catholic at all to say this for some people. Yes, I know. Just tired of lying and going along with things that don’t make sense. And it doesn’t diminish Mary if she had sex with Joseph. I don’t really have anywhere else to go because the Church is right about more important things than this, so I wish they’d never said this was doctrine.

Yes, absolutely they always had a valid marriage from the get-go! It is the married *couple* that by consenting to the marriage make the marriage valid; hence a lie, or any form of trickery and/or forced consent in entering into a marriage is what turns it into really Hell itself- and this agenda of what makes a marriage valid comes straight out of Christ's regulations for a valid marriage. Just because the "happy couple" aren't "bedding" oneanother doesn't dispute the marriage, for the purpose of a marriage is not so much "sex" as it is genuine really proper caring, husband and wife for oneanother. Let me remind you of the warning that the alien we call the archangel Raphael mentioned in the book of Tobit to the young man about entering into a marriage when "high on lust" as I'd put it; he/it said that such a union really is made in Hell itself, as such a "union" really does get extremely abusive. What it said is that the devil gains a lot of power over such people; well: why in the world would frankly an antisexual being take delight in a "matrimony" based primarily on lust *outside* of it leading to mutual marital abuse? None whatsoever; and that sociopathic seraphim we call "Lucifer" aka "the devil" really takes the sickest delight in such a misconduct being engaged in.

life and death belongs to god. marriage belongs to god. if abraham killed isaac, it would not be sin because of gods authority. when israel plundered egypt it was not sin because they obeyed god. when hosea married gomer who could not be faithful, it was not sin because he obeyed god, the author of every law and nature and power. god is not under the law and does not need to use the law in order to accomplish the purposes of HIs law

Joyce aheroe cursed me urine bernicebturned into a snake village school reserved taken white thornless rose or quiet beauty who gave me friends I don’t mingle with fornicators I work out my salvation with fear and trembling aunty kedzitor telling me to grind pepper prayers cancel not catholic 5000 given coins of grandma bcos boardmaths something on examination seat ❤❤

I applaud your efforts to clarify Catholic theology. Nevertheless Catholic theology remains like a big beautiful chunk of Swiss cheese

the bearded boy doesn't understand the difference between a rite and a sui iurus church...

Send me an angel.

The code of canon law cannot be anything but heretical; as it would contradict sacred tradition, as you so validly observe, Fr. then we're obliged to declare the code of canon law to be heretical in all of its stances, and to send the authors of it to Hell where they belong, yes, including canonized saints who penned it- as they called their God's mother a vile woman by penning that preposterous statement that calls His own parents pure evil.

The answer is no

This is so much simpler as a Protestant! Mary was used by God in a very special way, but marriage is a temporal institution for humans in this life ("They will neither marry, nor be given in marriage. They will be like the angels in Heaven"). Mary's union with the Holy Spirit was not marriage.

Yes of course they were married. According to the Word this means they became "one flesh" ... they also had other children, and Jesus had brothers as it is written. Stick to the Word!