Did St. Augustine Teach Double Predestination? 

Neither Calvin, nor Luther found any backing on any of the Church Fathers, so they had to resort to "Sola Scriptura". Miguel Servet resorted to "Sola Scriptura", Arius resorted to "Sola Scriptura"... Every one can resort to SOLA (my private interpretation of) Scripture

@@Alfredo8059 dude literally the defensors of Trinity used scriptures against Arrians, and they even talked about tradition who has used BY ARRIANS. Tradition of course it's good but any branch and even heretical branchs can have their own tradition or interpret tradition according to their doctrine. And it's very well seen in orthodox and Roman Catholic, they use exactly the same church fathers and even quotes but with a whole different interpretations, and that's even stronger with oriental orthodox and nestorians. Scriptures were the "support" for church fathers to their doctrines, not tradition

What exactly is the difference between single predestination and double predestination? Both teach that God gives His Saving Grace to some and not to others. Calvinist do no believe God forces people to sin, so the only definition of Double predestination is dependent on if God gives His Grace to everybody equally or only to specific some. Augustine believed God gave it only to some so he believes in double predestination. The term single predestination is nonsense and eitherway it means the same. The Catholic Church believes that everybody receives Grace even if you do not know Christ, so it’s up to the person to respond. That’s not what Augustine believed

@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 Interesting point and I think I tend to agree. This is off topic, but who is the artist who made the source of your profile picture? It looks cool.

​@@Alfredo8059 imagine thinking Luther didn't reference the Church Fathers...

Then God creates evil. Full stop. God made Stalin and Hitler and all their works. Causenthey had no free will

Couldn't be clearer.

But *THEY* say, as *YOU* write: _That no one can be aroused by the incentives of rebuke if it be said in the assembly of the Church to the multitude of hearers: The definite meaning of God's will concerning predestination stands in such wise, that some of you will receive the will to obey and will come out of unbelief unto faith, or will receive perseverance and abide in the faith; but others who are lingering in the delight of sins have not yet arisen, for the reason that the aid of pitying grace has not yet indeed raised you up. But yet, if there are any whom by His grace He has predestinated to be chosen, who are not yet called, you shall receive that grace by which you may will and be chosen; and if any obey, if you are predestinated to be rejected, the strength to obey shall be withdrawn from you, so that you may cease to obey._ *Although these things MAY be said,* they ought not so to deter us from confessing the true GRACE of God - that is, the grace which is not given to us in respect of our merits, - and from confessing the predestination of the SAINTS in accordance therewith, even as we are not deterred from confessing God's foreknowledge, although one should thus speak to the people concerning it, and say: Whether you are now living righteously or unrighteously, you shall be such by and by as the Lord has *foreknown* that you will be - either good, if He has foreknown you as good, or bad, if He has foreknown you as bad. For if on the hearing of this some should be turned to torpor and slothfulness, and from striving should go headlong to lust after their own desires, is it therefore to be counted that what has been said about the *foreknowledge* of God is false? If God has foreknown that they will be good, will they not be good, whatever be the depth of evil in which they are now engaged? And if He has foreknown them evil, will they not be evil, whatever goodness may now be discerned in them? There was a man in our monastery, who, when the brethren rebuked him for doing some things that ought not to be done, and for not doing some things that ought to be done, replied, Whatever I may now be, I shall be such as God has foreknown that I shall be. And this man certainly both said what was true, and was not profited by this truth for good, but so far made way in evil as to desert the society of the monastery, and become a dog returned to his vomit; and, nevertheless, it is uncertain what he is yet to become. For the sake of souls of this kind, then, is the truth which is spoken about God's foreknowledge either to be denied or to be kept back - at such times, for instance, when, if it is not spoken, other errors are incurred?

_But the devils, whom these men repute gods, are content that even iniquities they are guiltless of should be ascribed to them, so long as they may entangle men's minds in the meshes of these opinions, and draw _*_them_*_ [pagans] on along with _*_themselves_*_ [devils] to _*_their_*_ [the devils'] predestinated punishment_ This merely agrees with the Sheep and the Goats: "Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire *prepared for the devil and his demons."*

Mygoalwogel Do you imply that he taught that predestination is based on foreknowledge? That is rebutted by Augustine: On the Gift of Perseverance, Chap. 41, p. 542 (NPNF, First Series, Vol. 5): -To whomsoever, therefore, God gives His gifts, beyond a doubt He has foreknown that He will bestow them on them, and in His foreknowledge He has prepared them for them. Therefore, those whom He predestinated, them He also called with that calling which I am not reluctant often to make mention of, of which it is said, “The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” For the ordering of His future works in His foreknowledge, which cannot be deceived and changed, is absolute, and is nothing but, predestination. But, as he whom God has foreknown to be chaste, although he may regard it as uncertain, so acts as to be chaste, so he whom He has predestinated to be chaste, although he may regard that as uncertain, does not, therefore, fail to act so as to be chaste because he hears that he is to be what he will be by the gift of God. Nay, rather, his love rejoices, and he is not puffed up as if he had not received it. Not only, therefore, is he not hindered from this work by the preaching of predestination, but he is even assisted to it, so that although he glories he may glory in the Lord. "For the ordering of His future works in His foreknowledge, which cannot be deceived and changed, is absolute, and is nothing but, predestination." Foreknowledge is not by chance, or of which the content is something external to God which is then impressed on him, as if he would learn the future. He determines his own foreknowledge, it is predestination itself.

Mygoalwogel Yes sheep and goat. There is a twofold aspect of predestination, yet it is assymetrical, that is the whole point.

I have lots of relatives who are personally double-predestinarian Calvinists BUT the pamphlets in their churches aren't! (Yeah, I actually look at church pamphlets). Several I've read talk about how difficult and controversial the doctrine is, but they only address predestination to salvation, not reprobation!

@@Mygoalwogel this has been my experience also.

Hello. I am a latin Catholic and consider double predestination to be a blasphemy. However, Calvin was the only honest double-predestinatarian and I must recognize it. Augustin died before he could have a chance to choose anathema or retractation at Ephesus regarding his heretical view of Christ’s predestination. Aquinas and the thomostic school is pre-calvinism mixed with rethoric. Calvis was HONEST where Augustin and Aquinas werer not. Probably his honestity and esrnestnest saven him.

@@pepehaydn7039 all my many years as a Calvinist I never heard or read anything on double predestination, only the predestination of the Elect. Individuals may hold this teaching but as a denomination I am unaware of any. I speak from my experience. God's peace be with you.

Peace. My experience is similar in the Catholic Church. You must read Augustine (who invented the issue) or his followers, Aquinas, Scotus, Calvin, Jansenius, Baius either in the Church or outside her. The problem is that they are the true “Fathers” of their respective churches, at least from the theological point of view. Rome is, in her theology, as predestinatarian as Geneve, but reformed people, at least, are honest. I was schoked and appalles when I discovered the mainstream theology of predestination PRECISELY because I had neve heard of it in sermons, homilies, spiritual exercises, confesions, Masses, preachings, spiritual direction, chatequetic groups, pilgrimages... NEVER NEVER AND NEVER. I am spanish, so 100% craddle catholic in a country that was under great influence of the Church until General Franco’s death. Double predestination, double grace, double election, election/preterition or chose your favourite terminology.

Yes yes I love Romans 9! I read it and came out of the Roman Whore of Babylon!

" Hath not the potter power over the clay" . The words " honour" or "dishonour" are not synonyms either of salvation or condemnation. To understand Paul in Rom.9:20 it helps reading Jeremiah 18:7-10: "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them". The real question is ,Did Christ die for every single human? Adam sinned for every single human. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1Jn.2:2 " And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." 1 Jn. 5:19 We can't complain for being a pot of honour or dishonour. God can do what He pleases with his pots. God our savior "Who doth will all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth". 1 Tim. 2:4 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will" Mat. 23:37

@@maximilianthomas3006 , the founder of the witnesses of Jehovah read another verse from the Bible, a verse they loved ,and came out of Protestantism. Do you really think Romans 9 denies God "who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim. 2:4?

@@Alfredo8059 Read the surrounding context of that verse, it is about all kinds of people, great and small, rich and poor not individuals. If you read the whole chapter instead of the single verse you will see what I mean.

@@Alfredo8059 I don't think that Romans 9 denies that God wants to save all men. Because He never promised he would save all men to begin with. Only a remnant, Israel, His sheep, His chosen people.

When you misquote biblical passages in support of universal salvation, you give a perfect example of what Johann Eck meant. 😛

@@laudante24 , so we should know you are the ultimate infallible interpretative authority of Scripture. The basic problem is one of authority. If Christians have a sincere disagreement, who decides? Whose interpretation of Scripture? The first Protestant, Martin Luther "humbly" claimed: "I for my part am certain that the words I speak, are not mine but Christ's. Then my mouth must also be his whose words it speaks...my doctrine, I am sure , is not mine (John 7:16) Luther, "A Sincere Admonition", in Works 3:176. Calvin's words were better than Luther's? Your words are better than Calvin's? SOLA (my private interpretation of) Scripture. We have a great capacity to deceive ourselves, and Protestants believe this capacity is even greater due to TOTAL DEPRAVITY, but calvinists boast to be compatible interpreters of Scripture. It sounds contradictory.

St. Augustine of Hippo BELIEVED IN FAITH ALONE: "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says: 'Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto his for righteousness: and was called a Friend of God.' James.2:23 - That Abraham believed God deep in his heart is a matter of FAITH ALONE, but that he took his son to sacrifice him.... is not just a great act of faith but a great work as well." Sermons 2.9

@@SlovakLutheranMonarchist , St Augustine of Hippo believed in Abraham's (obedient and loving) faith alone. Pope Benedict XVI said: "Luther's phrase: ´faith alone´ is true if (conditional) it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love" . If we read St. Augustine in context justifying faith is an act of love , not faith before or apart love of God: " Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little..." Luke 7:47. Loving faith justifies. Faith alone is nothing ( 1 Cor.13:2). Luther's faith alone is not the same as Abraham's faith alone.

@@Alfredo8059 Firstly, none of reformers believed what thou sayest. That is misinterpretation of reformers said. If faith has no fruits we are not saved. That is a Protestant belief. You say that what St Augustine believed is not same as ours, and that thou misinterpretest what we believe. We believe that if man has no works, he has no faith. If faith does not provide good deeds, and works of that faith, we Protestants belive he is not saved. Thou sayest that Luther believed that faith alone means just a claim of faith and not actually believeing. Do thee have any proofs for thine claim? No, because I have the opposite. "We are saved by faith alone, but faith that saves is never alone." -Martin Luther

That verse is talking about justification before man, not before God.

@@matthaschanged No it is not. It's talking about Faith Alone which these converts believed. If you don't read chapter 1:1-27 and then 2:1-23, there is only 1 conclusion you will come up with: James 2:24 RSV You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James was tasked with addressing this heresy which was in its infancy. There are 3 specific heresies that were dealt with by the Apostles in the Apostolic era. 1. The Judaizers Requiring Gentiles to be Circumciszed (Acts 15) 2. Justification by Faith Alone (James, chapters 1 and 2) 3. The Early Heresy of Gnosticism/Dualism (1 John 1:1-2) The Three Heresies Found in the New Testament ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8QLCFCvPfSQ.html

@@matthaschanged I've heard every single argument of people like yourself trying to make James 2:24 mean Luther 2:24. CAN FAITH ALONE SAVE YOU? The Holy Spirit - James 2:24 You see that a man is JUSTIFIED by works and NOT by faith alone. The Reformers - Luther 2:24 You see that a man IS JUSTIFIED by faith alone. There is only one answer.

@@Ryan_Zell Your still ignoring the fact that it’s speaking of justification before men. Read Romans 4.

@@matthaschanged , the point of Romans 4 is that someone can become right with God without being circumcised, not that righteousness before God comes through faith alone, before or apart receiving the love of God so His commandments are not grievous (1 Jn 5:3; 1 Cor. 7:19, Gal 5:6). James is not speaking of justification before men. James is speaking about salvation: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14. Neither Abraham nor Isaac obeyed the voice of God to show their faith to any man but God alone ( see Gen.22: 12.18 " now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice....). Paul himself contradicts Luther's sola fide: "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" Rom. 2:7-10