When we are saved it’s all glory to God “lest any man boast.” If one is damned God takes no pleasure in it, it’s all blame on the man. Makes sense to me. Maybe something like: If someone gives you a winning lotto ticket it wasn’t your doing, if you refuse the lotto ticket or refuse to go redeem it that’s on you.
Grace alone! Thank you for the truth. Such a sweet comfort to know the correct doctrine of predestination; I was a Calvinist for many years and now I am Lutheran and can freely admit mysteries and just rest in Scripture alone. God's peace be with you
The view that God chooses based on what choices He "foresees or foreknows" men will make down the corridors of time is so ironic in that it actually turns predestination into postdestination. It goes against Paul's point about the twins in the womb who did neither good nor evil, but that the purpose of God's sovereign election might stand.
You misread Romans 9. God chose the younger to bring about the promise, not to effectually save one and damn the other. The OT references are 1500 years apart.
It seems the problem is with the idea that God can know the future - and still we have free will. I think that God, in knowing who will choose heaven and who will choose damnation, does not inhibit our free will. God has not elected one over the other - he just knows what choices we will freely make before we make them.
Thank you Pastor, as an ax Calvinist of 30 plus years that now, by God's grace am Lutheran it is so peaceful not to have to rely on human reason but Scripture alone and admit I don't know nor need to know everything. Thank you and God's peace be with you
I rely on Scripture alone and bow to every word without a need for any framework. However..........before taking a verse at RAW, LITERAL, face value please see what ALL SCRIPTURE has to say about that same verse. If you do the above then you will have particular redemption and perseverance of the saints.
@@TheDroc1990 *Luke **7:30* God's βουλή (plan/purpose/resolve/counsel) for the Pharisees was to accept them. But they rejected this βουλή of God for themselves, by refusing John's baptism. biblehub.com/greek/1012.htm *Luke **8:13* Jesus asserts that some really do *joyfully believe* the gospel for a while, and actually *fall away* through trials and temptations. *Luke **11:13* Jesus is emphatic that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks. *Eph **4:30* The Ephesians were sealed for the day of redemption, yet Paul warned them that the possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit was a reality. *2 Peter 2:1* Christ bought even the heretics who deny Him and destroy themselves. *1 Tim 2:1-6* Christ died for all people and wants all people to be saved. Therefore, Paul commands us to *interceed* even for godless kings and rulers. *1 Timothy **4:10**; 1 John 2:2* He is especially the Savior of believers. He remains the Savior of all people. This makes the labor of evangelism and the reproach of scoffers bearable. *Hebrews 3:1-12* Even "holy brothers and sisters" can "turn away from the living God" with an "evil, unbelieving heart." *Hebrews 2:1, **12:25* The author and the audience could reject God's warning and not escape.
Those who preach election, aka predestination, aka "once saved always saved" , aka eternal security, are under the delusion that they HAVE eternal salvation and that they can do nothing to lose it. Apparently those who claim to be saved can't be UNsaved, and the rest who apparently are forever lost, can never be saved. This is despite any effort or desire to the contrary, according to Luther and Calvin because we don't have freewill. If the lost cant be saved, no amount of teaching, preaching or evangelizing is POINTLESS! Did I not mention the 75 verses that state how a committed or righteous person can lose their salvation? Do you know what a conditional conjunction is? There are 1500+ of them in over 1400 verses. Without the ability to act freely, we are just puppets or moist robots of a moral monster. So what does Jesus ask of us? If you love me,..... Unless you remain in me..... If you do not continue to hold fast... IF you disown me, I will disown you.... IF you turn from your righteousness..... IF it is difficult for the righteous person to be saved..... IF you hold firmly to the word...... IF you CONTINUE to believe the message I told you (It is the practice of the Good News that saves you) IF you PRACTICE these qualities you will never fall..... Want dozens more Notice all the requests of how we must act. Nothing in the history of Christianity was ever achieved just by faith alone. To deny freewill and use God's sovereignty as an excuse, is exactly what Satan wants as "he prowls around like a hungry lion" eager to devour gullible believers thinking "I am saved."
It is true Jesus told the unbelieving Pharisees in John 10, that they didn't believe because they were not His sheep. He didn't say you're not my sheep because you didn't believe.
Ify Nsoha Then can you please explain that while Jesus acknowledged that they were not His sheep, He also said later on in the very same chapter: JOHN 10:37,38 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, BELIEVE THE WORKS: THAT YE MAY KNOW, AND BELIEVE, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Case in point in the very next chapter we see the story of Lazarus as a prime example of Jesus performing a miracle to the intent that they MAY BELIEVE. ...According to John 11:15 Jesus intent is clearly stated as being THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE: JOHN 11:15 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, TO THE INTENT THAT YE MAY BELIEVE; *So if John **10:38** is a meaningful encouragement to become one of His sheep, then reformers need to explain why according to them being one of His sheep is otherwise an unchangeable condition when Christ Himself says it’s not.* So according to Jesus Christ Himself in the very same chapter He tells us they CAN still believe and would then obviously be one of His sheep. So according to Jesus Christ Himself it was NOT an unchallengeable condition.
@@apilkey I didn't say it was unchangable lol 😂😂😂😂 when I said "no" I was agreeing with you. God draws us to salvation. Think of if like waking up in an ambulance, and you're being taken to a hospital cause you're infected. If you were to resist and jump out, you'd not get to the hospital on your own cause it's 5 miles away and you're hallucinating and can't walk straight. However, if you stay in the ambulance, you get to the hospital. Yes, you did passively cooperate, but you had NO credit or ability to get there on your own. This is how I view salvation. So yes, we do believe and are saved truly. God woos us
This is a very complicated issue I have been struggling with the doctrine of election for almost a year now. I guess if one knows thathe is saved without a doubt, that it doesn’t matter how he came ,but that he came... Armenians and calvinist can still fellowship together as it is not an issue...
Double predestination is redundant because the wages of sin is death. The non elect, the tares and or goats are not covered by the blood of Jesus. Jesus only died for his sheep. *John 10 : 11,26-29* I am the Good Shepherd; the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep. But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.
Wrong. *1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2* He is especially the Savior of believers. He remains the Savior of all people. This makes the labor of evangelism and the reproach of scoffers bearable. He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the church AND the world. *John 1:29; 3:16* The lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. God loved the world. *1 Corinthians 8:11* It is possible to destroy the saving faith of a brother for whom Christ died. *Eph **4:30* The Ephesians were sealed for the day of redemption, yet Paul warned them that the possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit was a reality. *2 Peter 2:1* Christ bought even the heretics who deny Him and destroy themselves. *1 Tim 2:1-6* Christ died for all people and wants all people to be saved. Therefore, Paul commands us to *intercede* even for godless kings and rulers. *Hebrews 3:1-12* Even "holy brothers and sisters" can "turn away from the living God" with an "evil, unbelieving heart." *1 John 2:2* Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, not only for the church. Christ died for all.
@@Mygoalwogel If Christ died for everybody then everybody would be saved. Jesus didn't make it possible to be saved he actually saved his people on the cross. Propitiation means the satisfaction of God's wrath. If Jesus died for someone and yet they still go to hell that would be double jeopardy or double payment. Jesus died for people of ALL nations, tribes and tongues not every person who ever lived.
@@dwashington1333 _"If Christ died for everybody then everybody would be saved"_ You know what a non sequitur is, right? The Bible nowhere makes this assumption. You clearly believe your own theories even when they contradict Scripture.
Niccole Duquette No one is chosen outside of Christ. And the only way to get in Christ is through faith. No one not even you comes to the Father except THROUGH Christ. You can’t usurp Christ and go around Him. You had no special relationship with God before Christ.
Hi Nicole I see them just the opposite of being humble ? But I see them as being proud they were chosen by God and the rest of the people didn’t measure up to Gods standards and therefore look down their noses at the unsaved ...✅
I beg to differ from your interpretation of Eph1 verse 3- 4, in its historical and immediate context, it is not talking about election or predestination in relation to soteriology. Note the word personal pronoun plural "us" refers to Paul and the apostles, instead of us as a believer in Christ, as the apostles chosen was by Jesus to serve his ministry from the foundation of the earth (John15:16). From verse 5 to 12 the "us" and "we" are the apostles too. But in this verse 13 there is a change of personal pronoun to "you" meaning the Gentiles ; "Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, " also alluding to Eph2:11-13 the uncircumcision and Eph3:5-6 the mystery. Any comments please. Thank you.
Isaiah 5, vv1-7 - The parable of the vineyard. God set up the vineyard in such a way so that it would bring forth good grapes. He expected it to bring forth good grapes (v.2), but it brought forth wild grapes. So God 'predestined' the vineyard to produce good fruit, but it failed to do so. How come? Can God's will be thwarted? Well, clearly yes. The vineyard, representing Israel, chose to rebel against the predestination of God. This illustration clearly shows the tension between what God does (predestination) and what man wills. What clearer illustration can there be that God does not predestine our lives in such a way as to undermine our capacity to exercise free will. Any doctrine of predestination that implies that God decrees the damnation of souls (either directly or permissively by neglect) is utterly refuted by this passage: "Judge now between me and my vineyard..." God desires all to be saved, so those who are ultimately damned are damned, because they chose to turn God's good fruit (which God had set them up to bear) into wild fruit.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that God unconditionally elects some to salvation, and also say that the non-elect freely reject his grace. Can't do it. Besides, Leighton Flowers is correct that this passage in Ephesians 1 isn't about election to salvation at all, but about being conformed to the image of Christ and to a life of holiness.
Those who preach election, aka predestination, aka "once saved always saved" , aka eternal security, are under the delusion that they HAVE eternal salvation and that they can do nothing to lose it. Apparently those who claim to be saved can't be UNsaved, and the rest who apparently are forever lost, can never be saved. This is despite any effort or desire to the contrary, according to Luther and Calvin because we don't have freewill. If the lost cant be saved, no amount of teaching, preaching or evangelizing is POINTLESS! Did I not mention the 75 verses that state how a committed or righteous person can lose their salvation? Do you know what a conditional conjunction is? There are 1500+ of them in over 1400 verses. Without the ability to act freely, we are just puppets or moist robots of a moral monster. So what does Jesus ask of us? If you love me,..... Unless you remain in me..... If you do not continue to hold fast... IF you disown me, I will disown you.... IF you turn from your righteousness..... IF it is difficult for the righteous person to be saved..... IF you hold firmly to the word...... IF you CONTINUE to believe the message I told you (It is the practice of the Good News that saves you) IF you PRACTICE these qualities you will never fall..... Want dozens more Notice all the requests of how we must act. Nothing in the history of Christianity was ever achieved just by faith alone. To deny freewill and use God's sovereignty as an excuse, is exactly what Satan wants as "he prowls around like a hungry lion" eager to devour gullible believers thinking "I am saved."
14:35 “I don’t know how it makes sense that I’m saved by God’s determination but not at all damned or rejected from God’s grace by God’s determination.” The answer is corporate election. God elects Christians (those in Christ) to conforming to the image of Christ and ultimately to salvation. But he doesn’t elect who will and will not be Christian (those in Christ). And how does one become “in Christ”? Through faith, and this gift of salvation is a gift. A gift that you do not earn by works, but accept freely through faith. I know this video is 5 years old, but I’m praying one day you leave this Calvinistic deterministic teaching of election/predestination behind. And come to understand what I confidently and earnestly believe is the true biblical understanding of predestination and election. That if corporate election and the free will of mankind.
John 6:44 "No man can come unto me unless my Father who sent me draws him" *1 Corinthians **2:14** : 14* But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. "the flesh profits nothing" Jesus our freewill is carnal, we have to be quickened by God, Ephesians 2
@@dwashington1333 John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." Jesus is drawing everyone to himself now. But he isn't doing it irresistibly. 2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." The Lord does not will that anyone should perish, but wants everyone to come and be saved.
@@whattheheckification the keyword is us-ward. Who is us-ward? In the first chapter Peter tells you to who he is writing too. If God wanted every person who ever lived saved then they would be saved. Psalms 115:3 [3]But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Isaiah 55:11 [11]So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
You are teaching the way of Rome. According to you, Salvation is not from the Lord. Salvation from your point of view comes from our good work of believing (you may say that faith is not a work, but in this context it would exclude the Lord from the salvation process and it would act as a work). Probably we follow a different God. I was saved by a God who chose and rescued me in spite of being a sinner because of his great love and mercy which I don´t deserve.
The last point about the paradox of single election was conveniently briefly touched. Are we not to use logic in union with scripture First when determining doctrine?
Foreknown = known before Those who loved God and were previously known by God (i.e. your forefathers), were also predestined to be saved through Christ, being conformed to Him (the Jews didn't know that it was Christ that would actually justify Abraham), so that Jesus might be the firstborn among many brothers (i.e. your forefathers who loved God and had died before the promise. Jesus was instantly the firstborn among many brothers the second he died and rose again). God also called them to be used in the salvation story, He also justified them (note: this already happened), He also glorified them (note: the readers have NOT been glorified yet, but their forefathers had been). It's a message to the current readers that they can trust God because he was faithful to their forefathers. They can have faith in that which is not seen at the present time in their persecution, because God keeps His promises!
Foreknowledge is an intimate relation with someone, not knowing something temporally in advance. God told Israel, "You only, out of all the nations have I known." Later Jesus said to false believers, "Depart from me I never knew you." Do we really want to say God wasn't aware of other nations or of the false believers? Obviously not.
Michial Brown Do you actually believe you had an intimate relationship with God apart from Christ before the foundation of the world? Script is clear that there was a time when we were WITHOUT Christ having NO HOPE: EPHESIANS 2:12,13 12 THAT AT THAT TIME YE WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, HAVING NO HOPE, and without God in the world: 13 BUT NOW IN CHRIST Jesus ye who sometimes were far off ARE MADE NIGH BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. We have no peace with God prior to being in Christ. Peace with God is only obtained THROUGH Him: ROMANS 5:1,2 1 Therefore being justified by faith, WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: 2 By whom also WE HAVE ACCESS BY FAITH INTO THIS GRACE wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Scripture is clear there was a time when we knew not God or rather were not known if Him: GALATIANS 4:8,9 8 Howbeit then, WHEN YE KNEW NOT GOD, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, AFTER THAT YE HAVE KNOWN GOD, OR RATHER ARE KNOWN OF GOD how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? **QUESTION: So how do reformers claim that they were known of God before the foundation of the world when Galatians 4:9 clearly speaks against them on this????
bob polo Not confusing anything. Obviously God “knew us” but the point is not as His children in an intimate way that’s mutual. There’s a massive difference between God simply knowing us because we’ll He’s God and He knows everything, and the type of knowing that’s referring to being in an intimate relationship with someone. GENESIS 4:1 1 And Adam KNEW Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. So are you saying Adam didn’t “know” his wife before he had intercourse with her? Of course not. This is a completely different type of “knowing”. Galatians uses the Greek word 1097 ginóskó for BOTH us knowing not God and Him rather knowing us. ginóskó: to come to know, recognize, perceive Original Word: γινώσκω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: ginóskó Phonetic Spelling: (ghin-oce'-ko) Definition: to come to know, recognize, perceive Usage: I am taking in knowledge, come to know, learn; aor: I ascertained, realized. Genesis 4:1 uses a completely different word for “know” which is 3034 Yada. Seems like you’re confused on what it means to know someone simply because He’s God and to actually know them because they’re His child by FAITH. No one was a child of faith before they were born yet reformers think they had some sort of special relationship with God. Oh He knew them alright l, but until they freely believed they were condemned already. ... According to John 3:18 we still stand condemned and under God’s wrath UNTIL we believe: JOHN 3:18 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ...According to John 3:36 you still have the wrath of God on you and yet reformers claim to have some sort of special intimate relationship with God prior to believing? Please explain to me how that works. JOHN 3:36 36 He THAT BELIEVETH ON THE SON HATH EVERLASTING LIFE: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.
bob polo Script is clear that there was a time when we were WITHOUT Christ having NO HOPE. If you were elect before the foundation of the world then that would be the greatest hope there could ever be! But what does scripture say? Scripture says you were WITHOUT hope: EPHESIANS 2:12,13 12 THAT AT THAT TIME YE WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, HAVING NO HOPE, and without God in the world: 13 BUT NOW IN CHRIST Jesus ye who sometimes were far off ARE MADE NIGH BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
@@apilkey You seemed fired up, friend. We're just talking (an in-house discussion). I wasn't using "know" in the sense of God knowing some information about us. I was using it in the salvific sense, which denotes intimate connection. Paul was one who was without hope as an enemy of Christ. That was his perspective. But Paul also recognized that it was God "who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace" (Gal 1:15). That's God's perspective. As one commentator writes, "Paul says he now understands that God set him apart for this role of apostle before he was even born. In other words, Paul didn't simply rethink his life and change course. God intervened to put Paul in the role God had destined him to fill." We experience adoption in a moment in time however that takes place. But God knows beforehand all those who belong to Him, even as they live as enemies of the cross. Lest we say God forms people in the womb but doesn't know if they're gonna be saved. Obviously, that doesn't make sense. Thoughts?
Pretending that making an assertion without evidence, as the not-so-good Zach M. is here doing, is the same as making a valid rebuttal is just silly. bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php
The natural man always resists the gospel and hates the light. The Father chooses to give eternal life to some. “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will!” Ephesians 1:11 The Son died for the elect and was raised from the dead. “I lay down my life for the sheep....You do not believe because you are not my sheep. John 10:15, 26 The Holy Spirit, in time, regenerates the elect and they receive the gift of faith. “We were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved!” Ephesians 2:3-5 Jesus says: “Assuredly I say to you, the one who believes in me has everlasting life.” John 6:47 Belief equals everlasting life. A person cannot stop believing and bearing fruit because everlasting life never ends by its very definition. “Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus!” Philippians 1:6 No contradictions with the correct Biblical theology. Lutheran view splits the very nature of the one God and the work of the three persons. This is an infinite serious problem. Lutheran view contradicts the first two Lutheran points with its last three for which you admit not having an answer. There is no answer to a contradiction. God does not contradict himself. The non-elect go to hell no matter if you call it single predestination or if the Son dies for them. Plus why would Jesus die for people in hell? He doesn’t. Jesus came to effectively die and save the elect as he says: “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day!” John 6:39
That totally contradicts scripture! You become a memeber of the elect by your own faith and you can choose to be erased from the elect…just read the bible !
It's confusing for sure. I just have to remember that God is not the moral actor in sin and rebellion against His will. It'd be different if someone wasn't elect but really, really wanted to be. It isn't like they're hating their enmity towards Him. It's almost easier to imagine a God who would just send everyone to Hell and save no one at all, which is ironic...
*Luke 7:30* God's βουλή (plan/purpose/resolve/counsel) for the Pharisees was to accept them. But they rejected this βουλή of God for themselves, by refusing John's baptism. *1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2* He is especially the Savior of believers. He remains the Savior of all people. This makes the labor of evangelism and the reproach of scoffers bearable. He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the church AND the world. *John 1:29; 3:16* The lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. God loved the world. *Luke 8:13* Jesus asserts that some really do *joyfully believe* the gospel for a while, and actually *fall away* through trials and temptations. *Luke 11:13* Jesus is emphatic that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks. *Eph **4:30* The Ephesians were sealed for the day of redemption, yet Paul warned them that the possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit was a reality. *2 Peter 2:1* Christ bought even the heretics who deny Him and destroy themselves. *1 Tim 2:1-6* Christ died for all people and wants all people to be saved. Therefore, Paul commands us to *interceed* even for godless kings and rulers. *Hebrews 3:1-12* Even "holy brothers and sisters" can "turn away from the living God" with an "evil, unbelieving heart." *Hebrews 2:1, 12:25* The author and the audience could reject God's warning and not escape. *Ephesians 3:3-6; Isaiah 45:19* As God has revealed his secret will in scripture, it is always to extend greater mercy.
Not one who is elect, no. But true believers can fall away. So in a sense the elect are kind of a subset of all who have believed. Lutherans believe that both predestination to eternal life and the possibility of a believer falling away are both biblical, even if it’s confusing. See Pastor Cooper’s podcast addressing some interesting questions like yours about election: justandsinner.libsyn.com/two-kinds-of-election
@@jerardosc9534 Yes. I’m Catholic now, and funny enough, Catholics can hold to this view as well. It’s called the Thomist view of predestination, in case you’re curious.
@@bethanyann1060 Ah interesting you are now roman catholic. That aside, what does one do with Pauls words for example in Ephesians 1 “He chose us Him”? Paul is assuming his fellow believers are elect yet he cannot know that since they have not persevered to the end yet. So its either Paul is assuming all believers will persevere or that he can be mistaken in his assertion in v4. How would you have answered when you were a lutheran??
@@jerardosc9534 I would honestly answer it in a similar way I would as a Catholic, however the Catholic Thomist view is more developed. Lutherans and Catholics both affirm the universal salvific will of God. God truly desires the salvation of all people, and the Catholic position explains that further by saying that God supplies all men with sufficient grace to be saved. So you could say that St. Paul is giving the benefit of the doubt to all the Christians he was speaking to, because falling away is a true possibility, but it’s impossible to know ahead of time who will fall away. You could also interpret it as St Paul saying that God chose to save everyone before the foundation of the world, but that does not actually mean everyone will choose to be saved. So in that sense that “election” is not referring to the elect who are finally saved. Sorry if that is garbled.
Calvinism isn’t biblical. It concludes things that the Bible doesn’t say (such as double predestination) and it ignores other passages such as universal grace And God’s love for humanity. What’s worst is that Calvinism makes God the author of sin, and gives man an excuse for unbelief.
@@shopson6991 knowing who goes to hell and being the causative agent that causes their unbelief are not the same. Double predestination doesn't equal foreknowledge. The Bible doesn't teach calvinism, nor did the fathers.
With respect, Dr. Cooper, this mystery isn't needed if you drop the idea that God chose some individuals for effectual salvation prior to the foundation of the world. Instead, God predestined whosoever believes to be "conformed into Christ's image" and "to be made holy and blameless." The text never says God predestines some individuals to believe and not others. In other words, predestination is about what God has planned for believers, whether Jew or Gentile, not about causing some people to believe by use of some kind of effectual means...
Dr. Jordan Cooper, God chose, [Elected], a body, which makes up His Church, which is made up from everyone who from their own free will, chose salvation. God doesn't chose some for salvation and not others. If He did, then he is violating His word which says we are conformed to the image of Jesus, yet many Christians aren't conformed to the image of Jesus. There is ONE saying that proves God doesn't choose individual's for salvation, and it's mentioned NINE times in the New Testament, and that is, "God is no respecter of people", The Bible says to have respect for people is sin, So those who believe God chooses some and not others, must believe God is a sinner. As for Rom 8: 28, All things only work for our good when we are praying in tongues and the Holy Spirit helps us pray, Please keep Rom 8: 26--28 in it's right context. You have twisted Acts 13: 48, because the Bible say we HAVE to believe before we are saved, NOT the other way round.
This is equivalent to the Thomistic doctrine of election, where we won't know until we die whether or not we are chosen. Until then, we can opt out. This makes salvation contingent on our choices and nullifies the whole notion of predestination (which becomes nothing but a tautology: those that make it till the end will make it to the end). Assurance of salvation becomes tenuous at best, logically leading to a fair amount of despair. A pastoral disaster, if you ask me.
Hi Jordan, You go wrong with trying to put explain the foreknowledge of God theme. If you say He choose whom He foreknew instead of whose deeds He foreknew, well then the whole mankind is elected because He foreknew everybody before they where born. The Bible clearly means the foreknowledge of our deeds and if He can use us. That is why apostle Peter says the he himself is predestined to be an apostle according to the foreknowledge of God 1 Peter
We’re all vicious mutts, but God chooses to tame some of us. Simple as that. Can’t take credit for being tamed; can only glorify the tamer. Can’t blame the tamer for not taming every mutt. It’s His choice. He’s got a dog sled team to put together.
Michael Heiser and others before him have made it clear that no Calvinistic understanding could have been in the mind of Jude at verse 4. Rather he's simply saying that the prophets of old knew that there must be heretics sneaking into power in the Church.
Calvinism is not found in Scripture. It is arrived at by drawing conclusions that appear logical. However, these conclusions are not permitted by unambiguous Scriptures. *Ezekiel 18:23; 33:11* God wants all wicked to repent and live. *Luke 7:30* God's βουλή (plan/purpose/resolve/counsel) for the Pharisees was to accept them. But they rejected this βουλή of God for themselves, by refusing John's baptism. *1 Timothy 4:10; 1 John 2:2* He is especially the Savior of believers. He remains the Savior of all people. This makes the labor of evangelism and the reproach of scoffers bearable. He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the church AND the world. *John 1:29; 3:16* The lamb of God takes away the sins of the world. God loved the world. *Luke 8:13* Jesus asserts that some really do *joyfully believe* the gospel for a while, and actually *fall away* through trials and temptations. *Luke 11:13* Jesus is emphatic that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks. *Romans 11:32* Who does God have mercy for? Everyone whom he consigned to disobedience! *1 Corinthians 8:11* It is possible to destroy the saving faith of a brother for whom Christ died. *Eph **4:30* The Ephesians were sealed for the day of redemption, yet Paul warned them that the possibility of grieving the Holy Spirit was a reality. *2 Peter 2:1* Christ bought even the heretics who deny Him and destroy themselves. *1 Tim 2:1-6* Christ died for all people and wants all people to be saved. Therefore, Paul commands us to *intercede* even for godless kings and rulers. *Hebrews 3:1-12* Even "holy brothers and sisters" can "turn away from the living God" with an "evil, unbelieving heart." *Hebrews 2:1, 12:25* The author and the audience could reject God's warning and not escape. *Hebrews 6:4-6* It is possible for one to be enlightened, taste the heavenly gift, have the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God, and then fall away. *Ephesians 3:3-6; Isaiah 45:19* As God has revealed his secret will in scripture, it is always to extend greater mercy. *1 John 2:2* Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, not only for the church.
We shouldn't abandon the parallel between Israel as God's chosen people and the Church as God's chosen people. Election does not guarantee final salvation--it did not for the natural seed of Abraham--but rather guarantees access to the law and the oracles and the mysteries of God. We are each predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, our Prototype, but we can be derailed from fulfilling our purpose in Him, so we have to be vigilant. You make a great point about assurance, that despite Calvin's desire for election to be a comforting doctrine, by redefining it as a secret unconditional decree, he removed any hope of assurance, which is why the Calvinist Puritans were led neurotically to try to prove their hidden status to themselves and to the community.
laudante24 Amen, and do you know WHO God in His Sovereignty has decided to have mercy on and WHO He’s decided to harden based on His revealed Word to us or do you just assume this verse means it’s totally random?
I don't know what you mean, but the simple answer is NO, of course I don't know who's elect for what. I just think that the Bible teaches double predestination, which is also logical, since God doesn't make anything without a purpose.
laudante24 We CAN know who God in His Sovereignty chooses to have mercy on because He’s clearly revealed it to us in His Word. This is NOT a mystery. God has NOT spoken in secret: ISAIAH 45:19 19 I HAVE NOT SPOKEN IN SECRET, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I THE LORD SPEAK RIGHTEOUSNESS, I DECLARE THINGS THAT ARE RIGHT. ... According to Deuteronomy 29:29 the things that have been revealed belong to us as God has given them to us and NOT kept them secret or hidden: DEUTERONOMY 29:29 29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: BUT THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE REVEALED BELONG UNTO US and to our children for ever, THAT WE MAY DO ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW. So let’s search the scriptures and find out WHO God chooses to have mercy on and it’s quite clear. It’s also quite clear who Je chooses to harden and not once is it random and not once is it before the foundation of the world. It’s ALWAYS conditional. ...According to Psalm 86:5 God has mercy on ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM: PSALM 86:5 5 For thou, Lord, art good, and READY TO FORGIVE; and PLENTEOUS IN MERCY UNTO ALL THEM THAT CALL UPON THEE. Is this a mystery who God chooses to have mercy on? *********************************** ...According to Proverbs 28:13 WHOSO confesses and forsakes their sin SHALL HAVE MERCY: PROVERBS 28:13 13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but WHOSO CONFESSETH AND FORSAKETH THEM SHALL HAVE MERCY. Is this a mystery who God has mercy on?
Oh, I see where you're going. Simply, you don't understand the doctrine of election. In a nutshell, God has mercy on anybody that comes to him sincerely. Nobody is questioning that, but you come to him because you received grace before, a grace that put in your heart the desire to invoke God. John 6:44, Acts 13:48, Eph. 2:8, all Rom. 9, and many other passages clearly teach this.
laudante24 what doctrine of election? The BIBLICAL doctrine of election or the false reformed doctrine of election. I understand both. It appears that you don’t understand the BIBLICAL doctrine of election. Election according to God’s Word is always for SERVICE and not once it it an unbeliever being elected to becomes believer. There’s not one verse in scripture that clearly states an unbeliever is elected to become a believer. ISRAEL is the Elect nation. JESUS CHRIST is the Elect One. BELIEVERS are elected and chosen for SERVICE.
Hey Dr. Cooper, thanks for this discourse, I enjoy your videos, even though I don't always agree with your interpretations. I think one of the key principles or subjects that you left out of this equation is FREE WILL. Jesus stated clearly that those who rejected Him did so out of their free, just the same way that those who believed in Him chose to do so out of Free Will. Obviously the truth of the Gospel of Christ must be presented to a person, so the Free Will is the agent by which we choose or reject the truth. I believe that if you can consider the role of Free Will, you can arrive at a more comprehensive conclusion on the Doctrine of Election.
The question I’d like to ask is why didn't God from eternity elect to save everyone? And in answer to that my reply is because He didn’t will to elect to save everyone. Since God is all powerful and nothing can happen without His will the reason why God didn't elect to save everyone is simply because He didn’t will to save everyone. And the reason why He didn’t will to save everyone is because He willed to damn some by leaving them in their sinful condition inherited from Adam. Consequently, they are predestined to be damned. When those who object to this say that the Scriptures teach that God wills everyone to be saved and therefore God hasn't predestined anyone to be damned, my response is that God does indeed desire that everyone should be saved but only according to that will of His which wishes that all should listen to Christ and believe in Him. However what God wishes and desires to happen isn't necessarily what He wills from eternity to happen. That God has two wills is apparent from His ordaining men to carry out Christ's crucifixion (Acts 4:28) which was a sinful act, when according to His Commandments He has forbidden such sinful acts. So here is an example of God desiring that all men should behave in a moral way when He predestined some (i.e. those who crucified Christ) to act in an immoral way. So the conclusion I reach is that there's no real conflict between God desiring that all should be saved and God having predestined some to be damned by leaving them in their sinful condition.
You are losing respect and credibility by using the term "Double Predestination". You are referencing Equal Ultimacy. Romans 9 vessels for honor. Vessels for dishonor. Gods electing grace is for all people??? Great, universalism. Lol, just a mystery I guess.
"The term “double predestination” simply means that, just as God predestines some, but not all, to eternal salvation, so he predestines others to eternal punishment;" www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/double.html
The only difference is one is an active predestination to damnation and the other is a passive predestination to damnation. By the end of the day, the Calvinist answer to why some are not saved is because God did not will their salvation in His hidden will. And that's coming from someone who was a former Confessional Presbyterian who believed in Equal Ultimacy. So yeah, Cooper is right in describing it. Even RC Sproul described it as double predestination.
@@jadenmarker8109 as Mygoalwogel pointed out I made a mistake. What I felt and said didn't match. When some say double predestination they are actually meaning equal ultimacy. Lutherans have the same issue. God is sovreign. One day people will be in heaven and people will be in Hell. Lutherans can ignore it but we see God choosing to save some in His grace while allowing others to perish JUSTLY ACCORDING to their own sin. I respect Dr. Cooper and I was wrong. I believe in double Predestination. I believe God saves whom He wills and those He doesnt save will perish justly and God will be glorified for eternity no matter what. I do not believe in equal ultimacy and believe Jordan knows the difference.
It is God who creates the heart, soul, mind, spirit, and body of man. He knows (beforehand) every choice man will make in any given situation that they are placed, including what choices they would have made if they were placed in different situations. And so, with this foreknowledge, God chooses who He will and will not create; when He will create them, through whom they will be birthed, and to which father. Determining the allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, what circumstances they will be born into, and what obstacles they will encounter throughout their lives, He does all this that they should seek Him, and perhaps feel their way toward Him and find Him. With this Foreknowledge He creates man, He feeds man, clothes man, chastises man, teaches man, etc. Not withholding love, kindness, mercy or Grace from anyone (though His offer of Grace is received only through humility and faith for God resists the proud), and yet, although He offers all this to man, He knows that there are those who will reject Him. Still, He patiently endures these who reject Him, for the sake of those whom He foreknew (even before He created them), who would not reject His grace, they respond to His Word, the conviction of His Spirit, the outpouring of His Grace, etc, and so, according to His foreknowledge, and to His predetermining the time of their birth and death, and the bounds of their habitations along with His working together of all things that happen in their lives, they are conformed to the Image of His Son. It is not just that God foreknows what decisions man will make, He foreknows man himself, and because He foreknows man, He knows what we would think, say, and do in any situation that He places us in, and even those situations He could have placed us in but chose not to. And though He desires that all would be saved, and so determines their times of birth, and the boundaries of their habitation so that they can believe, He knows that ultimately not everyone will believe. But it is not God who passes over man, but man, who despite all that God has given us, and does for us, turns his back on God, and so perishes. Now, why is it that some men are brought to a place of surrender, where they cry out to God in faith and are saved, whilst others (despite God equally desiring their salvation) are not brought to this place of Salvation? This is a mystery. However, just because we do not know everything that God has decided to keep hidden, does not mean we can ignore that which He has decided to reveal. We may speculate why some are saved, and others are lost, but we cannot say it is because God did not desire their Salvation, or that He withheld anything necessary for their Salvation. We know that it is ultimately because of their decision to reject God, why however God allowed them to make those decisions is not made clear, and so we should be humble enough to admit, we do not yet know why.
pharisees did not believe because they were not of his SEED-that is what Christ said-gen speaks of her seed and his(devil) seed-some are not chosen-romand says He makes vessels of honor and some of DISHONOR for destruction-ROMANS 9;21-22
How can God's grace be for all people if only the elect can be saved? If you believe because you were ordained to eternal life, can you believe if you aren't ordained to eternal life? No. If your name is not in the book of life from the foundation of the world, you can't be saved. This video proves limited atonement.
9. But the true judgment concerning predestination must be learned alone from the holy Gospel concerning Christ, in which it is clearly testified that God hath concluded them *all* in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon *all,* and that He is *not willing that any* should perish, but that *all* should come to repentance and believe in the Lord Christ. Rom. 11:32; Ezek. 18:23; 33:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2. bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#part11.10
Are the Ephesians included in the "we/us" of Ephesians 1:3-12? If so, why does he distinguish them in 13 with a "you also"? Seems to me like Paul is distinguishing himself as part of the firstfruits from the rest of the believers, not being sealed with a choosing, but because of a hearing/believing. Same thing with Romans 8. Tell me, who were the "glorified"? Certainly not Paul who has become a fool for Christ's sake. To assume that this passage applies to all believers is certainly jumping to conclusions. Such conclusions taint the texts of Romans 9-11, which concludes not with the idea of election, but with the idea that "He has turned all over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Once Ephesians 1 and Romans 8-11 are understood, there is very little from with a Calvinist understanding can stand on. Lutheran thought has been deeply tainted by Calvinism, which is a deep shame. Luther's nuance on the subject is helpful. Unfortunately, again, it has been tainted, even in this talk, by Calvin.
God predestines people to be saved and also predestines people to be damned. What was Pharaoh created for ? Damnation. Election is particular and grace is particular, because as Augustine taught, election is the basis for grace. The KJV in Romans 11:5 calls it the "election of grace". It is beyond me that anybody can teach that there is a universal grace but a particular election, when election is the basis for grace, there is no other grace except the election of grace. Election is grace, the two are so intertwined that they cannot be divorced from each other And if election is particular, grace is particular. The Formula of Concord departed from Luther, if Luther would be alive today he would be attending a reformed church and not a lutheran church. Because Luther followed Augustine and Aquinas, and both clearly taught double predestination. With that said Jordan Cooper did a marvelous presentation of the doctrine of election, his presentation was perfect. The doctrine of reprobation though, he completely missed. With that said, Jordan is correct that when the gospel is preached it doesn't necessarily mean that God passes by the reprobate. The mercy and grace of the blood of Christ is proclaimed to everybody, the holy spirit in the word is rejected by the reprobate, but I would not go as far as saying that God passed by those people, on the contrary God did not but they willfully harden their hearts in spite of God's grace. So from this perspective we can speak of a universal grace when the gospel is preached, and yet this grace is effectual only in those that receive it, i.e. in believers, the elect. This is why we can confidently speak against any doctrine of universal grace. The language in the Canons of Dort and Wesminster confession can be problematic though, when it asserts that God passes by or leaves in unbelief the reprobate, this is not an accurate representation. So maybe Luther would not have attended a Reformed Church. Here's the problem, the lutherans departed from Luther and the Reformed departed from Calvin. Calvin and Luther never disagreed on the doctrine of election or the atonement, but their successors are at war on these doctrines. And this I am convinced is because lutherans abandoned Luther and Calvinists abandoned Calvin. Look at Chorazin and Bethsaida in Luke 10:13, they received so much grace, that it would have sufficed to convert the most rebel of sinners, so it is asinine when Calvinists assert that God passes by the reprobate, as if the holy spirit were not working hard to convert the reprobate.
I find your presentation contradictory. On the one hand you correctly reject universal grace and agree with double predestination, but on the other hand you reject reprobation as God passing by the damned and assert the Holy Spirit tries to convert the reprobate. This doesn’t make sense to me. If God doesn’t pass by the reprobate with His grace how can they be said to be predestined to be damned? And if the Holy Spirit attempts to convert the reprobate then you’re agreeing with universal grace which you previously rejected. I agree that the Formula of Concord departed from Luther. Luther’s book The Bondage of the Will shows that. But in that book Luther correctly sets out that the reprobate are denied grace and therefore the Holy Spirit doesn’t try and convert them. If you believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the Word towards everyone who hears the Word then you’re agreeing with the Formula of Concord and are affirming universal grace, which means you don’t agree that God predestined the reprobate to be damned. How else can God predestine people to be damned other than to deny them grace and the Holy Spirit? Also I don’t believe Luther would attend a Reformed church if only because he taught the Real Presence in the Lord’s Supper which is something the Reformed churches deny. I'm in agreement with Luther by the way.
@@Edward-ng8oo Well, look at the parable of the sower. The seed is the word of God, and it is the same seed that falls on good ground and bad ground. So we must conclude that the holy spirit works to convert all sinners when the gospel is preached. Those that reject the gospel resist the holy spirit, just like the bad ground rejects the good seed, there is no problem with the seed, the ground is solely to blame. So I have zero doubt that the holy spirit through the word works to convert everybody and nobody is passed by. You state that this is incompatible with the doctrine of reprobation. I don't think so, God has made those vessels of dishonor that will reject his word, the Lord has made everything for his purpose including the wicked for the day of judgment (Proverbs 16:4). The fact that the reprobate resist the holy spirit, is actually evidence of reprobation and not a contradiction of reprobation in my view. When the gospel is preached the holy spirit is active in trying to convert the hearers, but the hearts of the reprobate are hardened instead of softened when the gospel of grace is preached, but this is due solely to the wickedness of the reprobate and not to the Word or the Spirit being unwilling.
@@billk8874 How can God ensure that the reprobate (those who are predestined to be damned) will reject His Word if He sends them the Holy Spirit with the Word and tries to convert them? There's a contradiction there. In the parable of the Sower one should keep in mind the distinction between the external call and the internal call. Everyone who hears the Word is externally called but only some (mainly the elect) are internally called by the Holy Spirit and are irresistibly converted. Everyone by nature is resistant to the Word and those who are converted are converted through God changing their unwillingness to willingness by the Holy Spirit working in their hearts irresistibly. Those who reject the Word can be said to resist the Holy Spirit only in the sense that the Holy Spirit inspires the Word, not that they resist the internal working of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. I think perhaps if you consider it carefully you'll see that you're combining incompatible elements into your understanding. In your initial reply to the video you state correctly that grace is particular not universal, but if you believe that the Holy Spirit makes no distinction between the saved and the damned and tries equally to convert both then you believe in universal grace. What is the definition of particular grace if not that God distinguishes between the saved and the damned and converts only those whom He chooses to convert and by-passes the rest? How is grace particular if God through the Holy Spirit tries to convert all?
@@billk8874 The difficulty that Scripture presents is that there's a conflict between on the one hand God electing to save only some people and not everyone, and on the other hand His desire to save all through Christ. The way that Luther approached this was to make a distinction between God's revealed will which desires to remove sin from everyone through the Gospel, and His hidden will through which He ordains that only some will believe the Gospel and so be saved. This I believe is correct because it allows for the fact that God both determines everyone's fate through double predestination as in Romans 9, and yet seeks to save everyone through Christ as found in for instance John 3:16,17. The way that the Formula of Concord approached this was to say that although God elected and predestined only some to be saved, those who aren't chosen to be saved, aren't predestined to be damned, but are alone responsible for their damnation because God tries to convert everyone equally. It doesn't need saying of course that this is illogical. However unfortunately those who believe this don't think that the logical contradictions involved rule it out as untrue. So I'm convinced that the Formula's doctrine of universal grace and no predestination to hell is incorrect and unscriptural. I’ve been convinced that grace is particular in that the Holy Spirit doesn't try to convert everyone but rather irresistibly converts mainly the elect, and that God predestines people to both heaven and hell.
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is predestination not for everyone then? For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. people choose to either accept salvation(life) or they choose hell(death).
