ever seen one of those hawaiian (i think, could be wrong, some kind of island region) shark teeth swords? jeez, i'd take a 1796 hit every day of the week over one of those bad boys
You said you wrote sci-fi for a living - must be writing particularly popular sci fi to have both a house AND a considerable sword collection as you've demonstrated - none of those originals come cheap!
They don't come cheap, but many of them come cheaper than replicas that compare in quality. If nothing is known about the blade (who carried/owned it, did it see service, etc) you can get a british infantry sabre for 320€, it's hard to find a replica that compares at this pricepoint
That is a very good point, and one I need to get on to in videos for those interested in buying sabres. Sabres and smallswords are two of the few sword types where it is often still cheaper, or of a similar price, to buy original compared to replica. And whilst there are some beautiful reproductions of Medieval and Renaissance swords out there, most repro sabres are crap compared to originals.
I'm a little bit late, But you can't believe how this video helped me alot, understanding that there was a difference between a rapier and a sabre! I always thought (wrongly) that there was no difference at all. Thank you for this amazing video, thanks for sort of opening new horizons to me. I'm starting to think I'll have a great time watching your videos, instantly subscribed.
this was very educational and cleared up a lot of confusion I had with rapiers and sabres. I always associated Rapiers witht he flimsy fencing foil in fencing sports. Glad to know what the historical rapier can do.
I'm glad you acknowledge that Rapiers come in a lot of shapes and sizes (to the point where when reading the manuals, it's oftentimes best to just use the word sword instead, and look at how the instructor describes their ideal weapon). I think this was the case with the Bastard sword as well, I don't remember.
Indeed. One of the biggest problems generally that rapier has is that people distance it from other sword types, and sometimes the same happens with the sabre too. But back to the term rapier, it is a very vague term historically, often not applying at all. It is useful for us today, but more than anything, rapier defines a style of swordsmanship more than it does a specific sword when looking at renaissance swords on the whole.
Academy of Historical Fencing Popular perception in my experience seems to move rapiers away from their more cut-oriented relatives (as sideswords would likely have just been considered rapiers as I understand the history of the two terms), and more towards modern sport weapons. I've gotten into a lot of arguments over how a rapier's not a blade you can just cut through without very specific circumstances.
Yep, sideswords and rapiers were considered to be the same type of sword. Even today the dividing line between how we decide if a sword is which type is really tough. As for cutting through a rapier. That one is a bit of a movie myth. A parry is made at the forte/strong of the blade, and most rapiers are very strong at this point. A quick test of cutting powerfully against a rapier at this point with a sabre, longsword or katana will show instantly that it can easily withstand them. Many people think rapiers are flimsy because they don't really understand what a rapier is.
How much cutting power do you expect out of a rapier that length? Do you think you could cut tendons with it through period clothing? With a hewing cut or a slice?
The simple answer is, enough to deal serious pain, up to some incapacitating wounds, but not killing blows. I think it would be pretty hard to make a cut that would cut tendons with the very long slender rapier blades like I showed here. I would say cuts from a sword like this are really intended to beat an opponent down/away, scare them off, weaken them, or set up a more lethal attack. That being said, it is still an iron bar travelling at immense speed, especially so considering it's length and speed the tip will be travelling at. I have stunned people with cuts from swords like this through a fencing mask. Had they no been wearing one, it would surely have been quite nasty. Same goes for leg shots, and the forearm/elbow.
I think I photographed about 90% of the historic armor and weapons featured at the SAIC from the Wallace collection. If you're looking for reference images for your channel, I'll send you a link. I made them public domain resources for artists.
Rapier! There is a little 45-6 inch gap in my fencing life where a rapier should be. And I saw some at the weekend. I stroked one...it was nice. I handled a rapier for a few lessons while on holiday. Very cool. I then proceeded to hold it like a sabre and do sabre-like things with it before I was kindly invited to rejoin the class and er,... desist in my little ways.
I've got one of those Rifle Officer's sabres... Love it! Beautiful for test cutting :) I'd be tempted to blunt it for fighting, but have been told I'd get a beating for doing so....
Antiques can be blunted for sparring, but there are a number of factors to consider. Firstly that only common and lesser condition examples should be used as to not ruin rare or high quality antiques. Blunting the edge and putting a tip on the end will often make them just as safe as a purpose made training sabre, but the last concern is hilt strength. Most antique sabres were not built to withstand the weekly beatings that a training sabre gets, and this is why when steel training sabres were used, they were typically cut down cavalry swords with bowl hilts, or purpose made swords that are similar. I have an 1885 pattern troopers sabre for this very purpose. Where I took a rough example, shortened it to infantry length and both blunted and removed some weight from the blade.
Mine is a volunteer rifle officer's sabre, as far as I know they're not very rare. I got it fairly cheaply (around 350 New Zealand pesos) because some previous owner had polished a lot of the detail off. It feels wonderful in the hand, and I'd love to fight with it, but it's also fantastic for test cutting. If I found a second in similar condition, I'd consider blunting one of them. Thank you for the suggestion for a bowl guard sabre though, I've seen a few around that had very narrow (but sharpened) blades that are clearly thrust focussed, and I never particularly liked the style. Would be perfect for a cut down blunt though, the blade profile would make for safe sparring, and a very quick sword!
Yes mine is a volunteer rifle sword too, they are much more common than regular army swords for this era, simply because of the vast expansion in volunteer corps at the time. Some are marked to the unit, as mine is on the blade, the Huttingdon Rifles.
I just finished On Stranger Tides by Tim Powers a few days ago and he used the terms rapier and saber interchangeably, which evidently meant to be a smallsword given how light and delicate he described them. Oh, and 10lb cutlasses. It made some of the action hard to read.
Yes that is certainly unfortunate. 10lb cutlass? LOL. Napoleonic cutlass was 2-2.2lbs and that was heavy compared to many. It is sadly common for the smallsword to get mistaken for the rapier or sabre. Those three weapons are so incredibly different. I think in many ways the problem stems from the olympic epee being associated with rapier, which it isn't, and the olympic sabre being so similar. The fact that the sport sabre is a featherweight straight blade in sport fencing does skew peoples perception of the sabre significantly.
From your video I gather that using the rapier would incorporate the point threat for riposte and counter attack used with foil/ epee possibly sprinkled with Sabre feints and cuts. But how about generally most effective defense? Would parries generally be from standard Sabre group of parries ? Or some combination of ( parries used in foil, epee, and sabre )?
Where possible the rapier according to the style we work from (Italian - Capo Ferro), you use aggressive defence in single time counters. Meaning the parries are themselves also strikes, as opposed to the double tempo parry-riposte actions that became the norm with smallsword, sabre, foil etc. That siad it is not always psssible, in which case parries are then done much as they are with sabre, not usually like foil and epee though, which have no discerable edges or knucklebow. The rapier is typically turned front edge on into parries as is typical with sabre.
Thanks, the sabre issue is one of language as I point out in my 'what is a sabre' video. In British English, a sabre by definition is a curved blade, the only exception bring a sport sabre which is a completely different kind of animal. In some cultures, sabre/saber is indeed applied to straight blades. In the Victorian period there were British sword patterns that existed in curved and straight form, such as the 1845 pattern infantry sword, but again, strictly speaking only the curved one would be considered a sabre. It gets to be quite a grey area in the late 19thc as so many sabres have minimal curve, whereas in the 18th and early 19th century almost all sabres had a lot of curve.
There are some historical examples of straight blades with hatchet tips. One one of the most famous is the British 1796 heavy cavalry sword. It was known to be particularly bad at thrust work, though it is also a particularly extreme hatchet tip, closely resembling some katana in fact. At the time it was common for soldiers to grind these down to spear points, and in fact an order was eventually given to make this standard practice. Onto does a hatchet tip help with cutting? Well hatchet tips are usually more robust at the tip than spear points, and the shape will given them additional curve over a spear point. Ultimately though I think you will find the different will be extremely modest.
it might be important to say that some sabers heavily favor the thrust, especially later 1800’s types. though many of those essentially have straight blades, but really the only difference between them and many contemporary “curved” sabers is a few milimeters of curve and those essentially function as straight blades anyways. the hilt and blade being essentially the same. and when you have sabers that curve like a few centimeters they essentially function the same as straight blades. i guess thats a fuzzy area. what do you call a blade that has all the trappings of a saber, but is straight? and at that point, functionally, are they so dissimilar to a only slightly curved saber to justify a different name? id say some slightly curved later period sabers act more like their straight contemporaries then like some more curved sabers like a polish or 1796 saber.
The saber isn't intended to be used in a sporting fashion, get in, slash. You won or you lost. Onward. That is war. No sport. Awful way to duel but a good way to rack up dead soldiers if you don't get but a single volley of projectiles
Yep there are always a few people that say this. They ignore all historical evidence, and that is foolish. To say a rapier cannot cut as effectively as a sabre would be accurate, to say it cannot cut at all would be completely false, and anybody who wants to question that can should stand in front of a rapierist and let them cut them with one.
Even if the rapier couldn't cut, why would striking someone with a long iron bar not be a martially sound thing to do in a given context? Just because a sword is specialized to thrust/cut doesn't mean one should ONLY thrust/cut if the non-specialized action can discourage the attacker and possibly save your life.
It is once you know what they both are. The problem has mostly been with both terms having been applied to olympic sabres (due to mixed fencing, theatre and movie use), so it had led to a complete mix up for many.
Not really no, besides a few oddities. The thumb on the back is actually very stable for lighter sabres, and for heavier ones you use hammer and handshake grips. Wrapping the finger over ricasso is really good for very long blades like rapiers and sideswords, but once you get down to about 34" and under, it's not an issue.
Rapiers are always slim and straight with a double edge. Right? And sabres are often curved and not as slim, but always with one (full) edge. Yes? In military in western europe sabres begun replacing rapiers for cavalry around year 1800. Swedes used full charge cavalry v-formations with emphasis on scary trample damage and rapiers drawn. The powerfull shock charges and rapiers in meleec proved very effective to around 1800. At that time sabres replaced rapiers even in Sweden, since it was the new mode.
Yes, the only difficulty here being that the term rapier was used for a very broad variety of weappons, but overall yes, plus th rapier is typically much longer and more thrust centric, and the sabre much shorter and more cut centric. As for cavalry, it depends where in Europe you look, most swords being used by cavalry in the 17th and 18th century were not rapiers. Rapier style of hilts for cavalry mostly died out around the mid 17th century in most countries, being replaced usually by some kind of simple half or full basket hilt, like the Mortuary sword, Walloon, Schiavona, felddegen etc. Now of course this does change with how you use the ter in different languages, but in English, those cavalry swords of the Swedes used in the 18th century would not ve called rapiers, but broadswords, and the same types were popular with some British cavalry in the early 18thc too.
Rapier is a sword, because of the form of its blade. It is strait. On the other hand, saber is a weapon with curve blade. The form of the blade is the only attribute which allows us to divide sword and sabers from one to another.
Mhhh being italian we call the rapier "stocco", and we use also this name for the estoc, (it's easy to spot the similiarities in the words) even if they are different
You do now, but the Italian's didn't historically. The rapier was typically just called a spada as any other.That is the problem with the terminology, is that it gets introduced or modified long after the weapon has fallen from use.
well that is intresting, i thought actually that the name was for that period, due to it's close similarity with the term "estoc" that is from an eralier time, intresting
I don't hear that often at all actually, because most people don't know what an Estoc is. The only reason people do is from the influence of a few very old books written by collectors who really didn't understand the swords use at all.
It is my experience that it's obvious when you know enough to know what to look for, and if you don't, looking at the images won't help much at all. Hence why people ask me all the time.
Either youre very short or that sword is very long, either way how long would it take to draw that in a fight situation? If your opponent is wearing some kind of cut proof hand and arm protection, whats to stop him grabbing your sword and stabbing you ?
I am 5' 7", but this rapier is also at the very long end of the spectrum. See the video below for how long it takes to deploy a rapier. A 42" blade was used. Yes cut proof gloves were in fact used, especially for duelling. You can in fact grab any sharp blade with a bare hand so long as it is not in motion and you get a solid grip before they can draw the slice. What stops your opponent doing that? The usual techniques of any sword to stop it being controlled or disarmed, disengages, counter cuts and thrusts etc. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-a10ncllct6Q.html
I remember old interviews where George Lucas said he envisioned the lightsaber weighing a lot, like 50lbs (which is very silly, but its fiction). I believe he intended it to invoke the stereotype of the a medieval knight fighting with a weighty two hander, like some of the romanticised imaginings of King Arthur in the 19th century. Basically a heavy and small longsword.
Academy of Historical Fencing yeah he originally envisioned the lightsabers as heavy weapons and he wanted the fights in the original movies to be reminiscent of both Kendo and European Longsword techniques. Originally he was going to have them used one handed, like the swashbuckling films starring Errol Flynn or classic Zorro movies
That british cavalry sword is kind of strange compared to most of the sabres I've seen - the curve.... it's not just extremely pronounced, it stretches the full length of the blade. Was it indian made? It just looks off for European sabres where the blade goes straight from the hilt to roughly 1/3 to the halfway point where the curve begins. Damned cool looking sword it is, whatever the case.
It is British made. An officers cersion that is slightly more curved than the troopers variants, but it still follows the same shape. It was common for British sabres in the late 18th and early 19th century to follow this style. Based off Hungarian, Polish and Austrian sabres. Some Brit sabres of the time were also influenced by the Shamshir. You can see accurate stats of this sabre at the link below. It is the second to last on the album. You'll also find a normal troopers version in the album and some Brit infantry sabres of the same period. www.flickr.com/photos/155366595@N06/albums/72157690346713756
Part of the reason people consider the Rapier a dueling sword, is because it was the Italians who championed the use of the Rapier originally, and when the Italian text Duello with rules of dueling came out, these Italian Rapiers and those rules became very stylish across Europe. It's not wrong to consider the Rapier a dueling sword, even though its capable of much more.
Darkwood Armoury are generally good. I still use several of theirs, though some are now mounted with custom Regenyei blades. Ferrum Armoury in Spain for good cup hilts.
Possibly, but a rapier grip is usually very short, because the index finger wraps the quillon, so any effect of a canted grip would be largely lost. You also need a fairly large pommel to counter balance a rapier, and having this off centre could really feel weird and make some actions unwieldy. Lastly, why would you want to?
Academy of Historical Fencing no reason I just visualised it in my head. Rapier is something I would like to learn once I get one to practice with. Thanks for replying I was just curious about the possibility of a canted grip on a traditional rapier.
Because it is an advantage, and as with all weapons, the user is always looking for the best tool for the job. The long bladed rapiers are king in one on one unarmoured combat.
I don't know what was the tradition in the West, but I was told and read many times that the short edge on the saber is supposed to be sharpened. Was it really left blunt? If so, then it kinda defies the design. It would be easier and cheaper to leave the back edge out, like on a katana. They didn't do it, because they wanted both back edge cuts and double edge thrust performance.
Yes the back and short edge near the tip is typically blunt on a great many hatchet tip sabres, and even an original Shamshir I have is also this way, though those are more commonly sharpened there. The back edge was not used in British swordsmanship as it was in Persian sabre. The sabre was used like a straight backsword. As for the thrust, sharpening it would make little improvement in this regard. Kitchen knives are not sharpened on the back edge and are used to kill people with he point all the time.
OK, if it was left blunt, then it was left blunt. Still, this exact feature was there for a reason, at least originally. Every little detail has a name, at least in Polish, so it was rather not an accident. Regarding thrust performance, I do not really believe that blunt but pointed blade is anywhere near as effective as a sharp pointed blade. I can go into gory details with describing my own experiences with butchery, if required. Anyway, I do think that wide, double edged tips kill or disable much quicker than narrow, un-edged or single edged tips. Mostly because a wide edged blade *cuts* as it enters and leaves a wide exit wound. That in turn changes the speed of blood loss.
Well what happened during the era of the British light Cavalry sabre was that the Heavy Cavalry, which was a straight sword, but with a similar hatchet tip, was re-shaped to a spear point. That is certainly better at thrusting. But to put it in perspective, a great many smallswords did not have sharp edges near the tip, and they were designed for, and were exceptionally good at thrust work. I know the Polish certainly favoured a lot of back edge cuts, and it is understandble then that many of their sabres had a sharpened back edge. I think you would need to do a lot of scientific research to tell what difference there was between hatchet point with and without sharpened back edge. The katana was typically unsharpened and thrust very successfully for example, and whilst you are going to get a little more resistance from the blunt edge, the would will also be broader due to the thicker back edge. Though I think the reality is that any decent point will inflict massive damage with a well placed thrust no matter what, and there are plenty of historical accounts of people sustaining horrendous thrusts from these hatchet tipped, blunt back edge blades.
Academy of Historical Fencing I don't think we need science to figure out how a double edged point deals more damage than a needle point. The edge cuts, it severs the tissue. The needle does not. For a very obvious example - hunters don't use field tips for hunting. They use *at least* double edged broadheads, and preferably triple or four-edged tips. More edges, more cutting, quicker blood loss and a cleaner kill. With that in mind, having the back edge blunt is an obvious downgrade. Not having it at all could be useful, for stiffness, but having it blunt? Then of course there is also a problem with sufficient penetration. No matter how many edges archers put on a broadhead, if it doesn't go in deep enough, there is not enough damage. For that reason traditional archery hunters with their weaker kit often use only double-edged broadheads. So a spear tip can be superior to a hatchet point, because it's stiffer and slimmer, and it can be inferior, because it's slimmer, which causes less damage. For me it all seems rather clear, but I was wrong before...
Arrows are very different though. They have such a small amount of mass that they can barely carry any momentum, especially since once they're launched no additional force can be applied to it to help it penetrate prey deeper, therfore they need every help they can get. A sword on the other hand is much heavier, and instead of being launched it's carried by someone who can easily push it in deeper. The delta in force is so small that there is little to no use while thrusting. Sure without the backedge there may be slightly more resistance but it also causes slightly more damage as the blade is just ever so slightly wider. Since in swordfighting you don't win a battle by making "clean kills" but by disabling your opponent your goal is to either kill or cause significant enough damage for your opponent to be unable to keep fighting. Although the reality of it is that it simply makes no difference. The extra force needed is too small to be noticed and the extra damage too little to disable. So unless your technique involves cutting with the backedge you're putting work into something that has no impact in a fight.
Rapiers were commonly worn on a two point suspension system such as the one below. They hang quite low and have quite a range of movement compared to say a baldric/bandolier type would give. If you watch our 21 foot rule rapier draw video you will see a similar belt being used with a 42" blade and it draws easily. The one in this video is about at the limit of what I could draw, but then it is very long, and I am only 5'7" tall, so they are surprisingly quick due to the belt style. renleather.com/images/WH-CAR-TDP.JPG
What is a Rapier? Well it's you. Your neighbor. And yes , dear America it is me as well. With me America we will make Rapiers great again. The thrust into flesh. The glint in the sun. The deep penetration. Weren't those the times to be in? Wasn't it great? - A Rapier. Propably
Bro I am going to go to my first club. I will master the rapier. My goal is to be a competitive expert in the next 5 years. I plan on opening a RU-vid channel and recording the journey. Let us look forward to it together. Live by the sword. Die with a sword. The Young Boss: Yusuf
See the video below. It's quite easy actually because it sits quite low on a two point suspension system. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-a10ncllct6Q.html
Ways to handle a raperist would be interesting - have to get beyond that point or come off-line, perhaps beating through the blade..rather a long lever?!
I will go into this at some stage as we have a lot of experience of these mixed weapon fights. The one thing I can say though is that offline footwork is not beneficial at all, the rapier movement and disengages mean that you are just slowing the closing process down. Fighting a rapier with a shorter sword is largely like fighting a spear, in that everything comes down to getting that first bind, parry or beat in order to close.
Thanks, would be very interesting. Not the same, but I had the chance to try sabre / single sword v rifle with bayonet (yes, less agile than rapier) and spear (simulated). Different game. George Silver v rapier also interesting to see and understand.
