Discussion with Jayden Quinlan on barrel tuners 

Outstanding. I'd rather see a conversation than an argument any day.

Kudos for working together for the betterment of our sport even when we may disagree.

A humble discussion on both men’s parts. Well done!

Man, I appreciate these two guys!!! I can’t wait to see more data from these guys!!!

More of this! I'd love to see more in depth testing and then Eric Cortina on the resulting Hornady podcast

The humbleness, open mindedness and willingness to recognize when someone has knowledge to share is what makes you one of the best shooters out there. FYI - I love my EC Tuner brake.

I vote for Eric go to Hornady range with their radar and make podcast about it?

I use a tuner on a competition .22LR. Each revolution moves the weight 0.025”. My tune windows are only 4 clicks wide, or 0.1” - 16% of a revolution. Outside of that window, the groups deteriorate. Big tuner adjustments can produce random results.

🤜🏼 Cool discussion.

Hopefully Hornady will invite you to sit in on any future tuner testing.

I know this isn’t the start to this discussion nor the end, thanks for posting it. The science would be nice to narrow down to what the tuner effects and how the heck velocity change might be effected when we really are thinking barrel harmonics amplitude or position. Hope to hear more soon. Keep up the good work Erik.

I wish this conversation was full length. It was great seeing the conversation.

I love that our technology has gotten to the point where we can *affordably* start to deeply analyze things like tuners to discover what effects are going on in the very small time slices associated with a round traveling around 3000fps in the confines of a rifle barrel. I could float some hypothesis as to what's going on, as could Erik, Jayden, and others at that level of intelligence and understanding. But I'm much happier to continue investigating and see where the the data leads us!

I got a V2 EC Tuner and it definitely changes the groups. For someone to say that they don't work is hard to believe because it's evident through testing. It's really noticeable on good rifles that already shoot small groups, and not so much on a cheap off the shelf rifle.

Great job working together. 🙏👏 👏

Great discussion.

I called Hornady out on their last video. I told them to give me 200 30-06 Eldx ammo and I would show them that I can make the gun shoot better. I run EC Tuner brakes to set up all my hunting rifles. They are money. I have had really good results with that $10 limb saver but no brake and it’s ugly. Erik you are the man. I love that you’re speaking Hornady’s language and making them think. It’s all about harmonics. It’s like they want to ignore that part of internal ballistics. I’ll be ordering a couple more tuner brakes pretty soon. Thanks for all you do.

Love this! Its funny how we shooters fight over tuner vs non-tuner; but ya'll can still get along and have a fruitful conversation.

It certainly looks like that something favourable for Eric is going on and knowing from what we’ve seen and heard from Jayden he'll chase this down until he can confirm or otherwise with an explanation . I’m intrigued, as I firmly believe that my rubber donut limb savers work in dampening out the barrel vibrations on my various rifles, as I’ve proved similarly, simply through empirical testing. But hey, there’s always the placebo factor to,consider in that if you think it works for you etc, but the 0 setting when compared to the 10 setting was chalk and cheese and further Eric went on to win with that setting, notwithstanding he may have won anyway

Love this!

I am a believe the data type person and I will say the data is still yet to be complete. I would love a calibration between you to where you put a few thousand rounds down range and test the hell out of the turners. I am looking forward to seeing what you two come up with. I also watched a pod cast with Brian Litz and his data matched Jayden's but there is still a story that needs to be finished.

Great stuff. Thanks

I have really gotten into this stuff, and I attribute my interest to these two guys and Gavin G. These guys are a treasure ‼️💯😎🤙

I’d love to see a collaboration where you go shoot in Nebraska on their radar with your equipment and ability but with statistically significant group sizes. If the tuner is doing something the data won’t lie.

Always good topic

Much can be learned from these two

Great discussion with live fire results! Now we all can see the effect of a tuner. After running numerous barrel vibration simulations and validating with live fire tests, I suggest there may be a logical explanation to the tuner mystery. The barrel vibrations (muzzle movement) are very complex and determined by temperature, barrel profile, length, type of steel and cartridge loading. Added barrel weights of 4-6 Oz can affect the vibrations substantially (good or bad) by changing the exit time of the bullet. In addition, the temperature changes of the barrel cause it to lengthen & shorten, thus affecting exit time also. I suspect that adding a "barrel tuner" really gives the shooter the added weight and an adjustment that can attempt to compensate for the exit time shifts.

For not just reloaders, also shooters of factory ammunition, this emphasises the point of taking variation out of their setups to try and pinpoint causes for error and shot deviation and realising the difference between a mechanical error/correction and a psychological error/correction. It is a forever learning experience and if you can control something better if you have limited time or funds it is a positive adjustment.

Well done.

I heard something in one of the Hornady podcasts that having a muzzle device can influence drag variability so you may have to change the form factor on your 4DOF file depending on your drop characteristics at distance.

You're getting there Erik. Thanks for engaging in dialog. I wish you two would do a test together then we'd know for sure. What happened to the 10th shot on the first "good group"? Did you fail to shoot it or did you decide it was a flier and remove it? If you removed the worst shot from the bad group it would shrink as well. A few other comments. There's probably too much noise to get reliable data at 1000 yards in a reasonable amount of shots. Testing at closer ranges would reduce both aiming error and wind error. Your second "good setting" group increased by 62% compared to the first. The "bad" group in the second series of 10 is only 42% larger than the good setting. So there's more difference in your first and second good group than the difference between the good and bad. Based on group size alone these groups could be statistically the same but I think we're making steps in the right direction and obviously I'd also choose the smaller average size and go with it. Thanks again for continuing to explore the reality behind tuners.

I have a Model 70 Winchester 30/06 with the old Boss system muzzle brake - tuner and its amazing what that tuner does to that rifle even with the pencil barrel

I like where Jayden was heading with drag and next steps but in my mind, it might be hard to separate how one influences the other -- i think that if you change the tuner setting, the angle of attack gets changed and of course the drag characteristic because of it gets improved in favor of accuracy so ES/SD is lower as a proof! Given all of this, occam's-razor wise, tuners do work without trying to explain how and why it works!😄 If you guys figure it out, I sure would like to know still but you would have a long road ahead!!! You guys are the best!!!

I think the best science comes from the best minds, despite differing ideas, working to solve the same issue.

Is it true that tunner works if your group is vertical? Let's say the group is horizontal and tuner won't work ? In my understanding this theory has a point but wanna hear experts. Eric you are interesting person. I wanna have yours willing to learn.

what a class act...

Great video. Hopefully, good collaboration to come. I have 3 of your tuners and have good results. I wonder what level of precision is needed to get a credible signal above the noise. As you have said, a tuner won’t make a bad load shoot significantly better. It can make a good load change to desired results. Keep up the good work, Erik.

Been testing tuning with my .22 it’s crazy how the groups will shrink by half!

Try it on 0, then 10. Then 10, then 0. Reverse the procedure to see if barrel heat really had any effect. That powder sitting a hot chamber could effect the speed.

Excellent discussion. I use a cheap plastic deresonator and saw my groups shrink from 1 moa to 0.5 moa as I moved it along the barrel in 0.1inch steps. But I still doubt it was the tuner effect but maybe that I was settling down and shooting better. Anyway... It has stayed on the barrel since then... BUT.... I'd like to see a blind trial, where the shooter doesn't know what the tuner setting is or whether the setting has even been changed between strings of shots... Please 🙏🙏😂

Is there any way to measure the barrel's harmonic response to the change in muzzle balance before using a tuner. If so, can the the same be said for collecting the data through the the entire range of tuner adjustment?

Great job. Interesting topic, hope youse guys can get together and help the shooting sports figure this out. All verbals matter. Like tuning an arrow. I take my archery understanding and apply it to the gun world. Along with information gathered from people like both of you and F Class John. All information combined is like cheating and speeds up my quest to be the best i can be. Keep the sport alive!!

What’s missing here is a control group without the tuner installed. The vertical stringing could actually be caused by the tuner.

Will you guys top talking and start doing more testing! Inquiring minds want to know.

When I heard the Hornady podcast I knew their testing was "biased". Not in the usual sense, but they were testing factory ammo and shooting ~1 MOA groups. I think their tests were informative and valid in demonstrating that a tuner will not help much with that kind of setup. But that is a large part of their customer base...people who shoot factory ammo or who make very average handloads. Compare that to Erik's testing where he's fine tuning a gun that already shoots well. He's testing with custom actions, match grade chambers/barrels, and the very best handloads. His results are also informative and valid.

verry interesting discussion, should be longer on both sides. Is the adjusting of the tuner relatet to a special distance or once adjusted its good for all distances? ( sorry for my english 🙂)

A good test on the shot marker would be to shoot it at close range, say 100 yards. Send all the rounds though same small hole. If marker shows a ES of single digits or even like a 1-2 ES and your chrono says otherwise, you know its giving velocity errors just because of distance from microphones, In other words, asigning a lower velocity for a projectile falling low on target or more to the left or right of the target from center.

Great information! This vid is gold! Thank you Erik and thank you Jayden Quinlan. Pretty soon I'm going to order a EC Tuner for my 6.5 PRC

I don't question the fact that tuners do change the grouping. I just wonder what the comparison would be with the tuner set to it's "best" setting vs the tuner removed completely. It is just getting it back to the barrels pure performance level?.... or is it actually improving upon it? I have the EC Tuner Brake btw but have not done this test, nor do I have a rifle system (or the skill level) to qualify any results. I would trust either of these guys to do it but one might be biased here. lol. I think 3 neutral shooters using the same system would be good for data.

My gut tells me that the tuner is allowing the bullet to leave the barrel with less ‘rotational instability’… I certainly don’t know all the terms, but the second groups seemed to behave in a true random pattern and the first groups seemed to be influenced by the launch system. Like the bullet tips are rotating around the ‘theoretical line of travel’ they are traveling on. Excellent discussion gentleman. Hats off.

Ask Jaden if he specially reloaded the shots for his test or did he just got Hornady loaded ammo from the product line?

Great conversation! I follow both your channels and thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I've learned so much from your constant sharing. Erik, I missed the name of the company you're reaching out to (~9:15 minute mark). ..."system" 83? Thank you! And congratulations on another victory!

Does tuner reduce yaw variability?

Hard to imagine that velocity at muzzle is varied by the brake, which implies that IF the velocity at target is more consistent then somehow exterior ballistics are changing. Very hard to determine the cause vs the the result of the effect here. Could be that something completely unexpected or un monitored is happening and we aren't even considering.

Great discussion. I would say that turners do work, the prove is in the pudding, by looking at the two targets. PS. # hey wrong ammo. lol😂 I seen you on fellow RU-vidr Back fire, which was informative and fun to watch.

🕵️‍♂️ Eric, Did You Notice That on Tuner Zero Your Shots Tended To Drift Downward? Your E.S. Was Larger and Since Your Velocity Lower, You Would Expect to Have More Bullet Drop and a Wider Pattern! On Tuner Ten, Your E.S. Was Less, So You Would Expect Tighter Groups (Which You Got)! Also, Your Velocity Was Higher, So You Would Expect Less Bullet Drop! Your "Shot Pattern" Was Not As "Patterned", As It Appears That Your Shots Did Drift Upwards (But With Less "Patterend Consistency"), But in a Less Predictable Pattern Trend Than Tuner Zero Had! But, Since I Don't Know If Your Point of Aim Was The Same (I Would Assume It Was At That Distance?) Or If You Let Your Barrel Cool As Long, It Is Hard To Draw Some Conclusions? 🛑 Is Their Any Device Currently Out Their That Records Your Barrel Temperature At the Time You Pull the Trigger? 🤔 If Not, That May Be An "Invention" Worth Developing? 👨‍🏫 I Am An Engineer and a Hunter, But Not a Competition Shooter (Yet)! 😜

Cool

As I recall Hornady determined in the podcast that it worked if you believe it worked and that they saw no effect. Therefore, stick a rabbits foot in your pocket or don your lucky cap and believe! I think I’m going with the National Champion ! Good video Erik👍👍

Been shooting a tuner for 25 years now and Bill Calfee had it all figured out 35 years ago

I am not an expert at all, but what makes sense to me is barrel harmonics. When I shoot different ammo, I get different groupings. This tells me that if one could alter the harmonics on a dial rather than changing ammo as in load development, which is to much effort for a non- dedicated shooter like me, it would be great.

Question here Eric, did you shoot the 0-setting group first in both of these cases? Could the warmer action be the reason for more consistent es? A few of the 0-setting shots are cold bore, and as you shoot the next set of 10, the system is more consistently warm? Not too warm, just warm enough to give the cartridges a more even ES for the 10-setting?

You teo should collaborate on a test together.

We need colab testing! You and Jayden together!

Very honorable, well done Erik #WrongAmmo

I’d do that test again too. Did you do T0 and T10 in that order both times? If so I’d do T0 and T10 and reverse for second test. You said it yourself the next ten isn’t going to get better. But I’m guessing the barrel vibration could alter muzzle velocity as a bullet would have more trouble traversing a barrel with more vibration???

When pride and ego can get pushed aside for a common goal. I believe great things can happen. Barrel harmonics is a extremely interesting subject. And I for one think there is much to be discovered. Gentlemen, may your s.d. be minimal, and the data that results from testing be clear cut, and concise.

The first 10 shots at sitting 10 was 4 inches. The second 10 shots at tuner setting 10 was 6.xx inches. Setting 0 was 8”. That’s in the realm of dispersion

🤔 There May Also Be More Than 1 Approach to "Controlling Barrel Harmonics" and to Provide For More Consistent Shots! I Have Really Never Looked Into It or Given it Any Thought! If The Barrel Was Coated With a Harder Substance (Like Graphene) on the Inside and a Softer Coating on the Outside, Wouldn't That "Normalize" or "Stabilize/Dampen" the "Vibratory Motion", From Shot to Shot? 🤷‍♂️

Small movements of the tuner are key! ~ .001" ,or one line on a 32tpi tuner, of movement on the tuner will make it go in or out of ideal tune. `

The more information the better. Narrows the diagnosis when an issue comes up. Excellent stuff. What a shame that the muzzle velocity information is gone! 😢 Tuner setting affects ES... what the...? Hope Jayden runs his test again with new found knowledge from Erik.😅

🤠 Horneday is Using the N > 30 Sample Size "Standard Mathematical Practice", But That Number is "Not Set in Stone" As A "Statistical Absolute Minimum" By Any Means! 😃

Erik, what app were you using to record your shot placement, etc? (I’m new to the sport.)

One issue I noticed with the Hornady (et.al.) testing is that they didn’t define the rifles they used and how precise the rifles are. They also didn’t define whether they were using hand loads or how rigid each load was defined, what bullet, what case, etc. It seems if a tuner does concretely work, it may only be observable within rifle configurations that have such a tight tolerance that they *are able* to be tuned. Off the shelf rifles with off the shelf barrels and not a Brux/Hart/Bartlein/etc may not see that level of tuning potential. I’d like them to take YOUR equipment and perform more rigid tests.

Good stuff. Why they wouldn’t have you do that same test over their big radar beats me. Then you would have the next puzzle piece. Of course, there would go all of this debate content and views. If I sold factory ammo, I would sure be looking under every rock for a tool that made my product work better.

Correlation does not equal causation That said - if it helps with you mental game then that’s all you need

First of all, I appreciate the civility of this discussion. We need more of that. Erik, you said at about the (9:40) mark you're "okay with magic as long as it works in my favor . . ." I thought there was a guy who taught you how tuners work. You've referenced him before in a podcast and said that he swore you to secrecy. I say that to say that it's not magic if you know how it works. And, respectfully, not having the real chrono data on these two groups is beginning to sound a little like "the dog ate my homework." It's awfully convenient that someone deleted the strings when the data from the target chronos seems to explain away the trend in the group sizes. It seems like it would have been simple enough to have put up numbers in a format similar to way Litz showed the data in his test. And to be clear, I own one of your v2 tuners and have it on my rimfire setup. I haven't personally been able to quantify an improvement, but there's always the possibility I'm doing something wrong.

The earth is round and tuners will work if used correctly.

Wonder if this will be half bleeps and all the info covered up.

I dont know why there is even a debate. Tuners work, there is proof. I have personal experience with the B.O.S.S. system on a browning abolt in 300 win mag. I was able to cut my groups from 5/8" to 3/8". It was one of my best shooting rifles.

Welp the internet is on fire again. In all seriousness, this is great.

Ive been following both sides of this. It sounds to me like if you can load rounds as good as EC, shoot as well as EC, have a load developed in a barrel that is within the range of what the specific weight of the tuner can correct then you can tighten up your groups at 1000 yards. Good luck with that 😂

I wonder if somebody could film in super slomo with high fps camera the barrel from 12 and 3 o'clock with different tuner settings and record the vibrations?

I’m all for a cortina-hornady partnership!

They may want you to shoot Hornady bullets EC! 🤣

Rookie question. Can I use a tuner on a 6 contour barrel?

Hi Eric, will I be able to get an EC Tuner in South Africa?

It’s all about finding the truth. That’s what winners do. They don’t care if they’re right or wrong.

As per the thumbnail, one person has actually thrown Hands before and it’s easy to tell

Like Tim Sellars says "TUNERS WORK" LOL.

The issue is Hornady tests at a much shorter range. Could be some positive compensation happening. Essentially you load for "best load" and NOT positive compensaion. Now your tuner is making positive compensation happen because of the barrel pointing vector on exit. - I still don't know how you have less followers on Instagram than I do, lol.

First you need to set a real baseline. Shoot 10 ten shot striings at the same tuner setting spaced timewise to prevent nonuniform barrel heating. Then proceeded to shoot different tuner settings. Erik's first 10 was from cold to warn, and the next 10 was from warm to warmer. Not balanced.

Imo, the only way to make this testing valid is for someone else to set the tuner setting and you don't know it. That's how clinical drug trials must be done: 'double blinded', even the RESEARCHERS knowing which group is the intervention and which is the placebo can influence the results, let alone the trial participants. Your expectations with regard to the tuner setting's performance could easily and significantly affect the result.

Do it on 10 different guns shooting 10 different calibers in 5 different environments show the test data for all data points at a set interval that is repeatable and show that not only 1 is repeatably good but that the ones in between are consistently the same. Then take the tuner off put it back on and do it again. Then you need to do the same thing but just do weight. Start bare and then increase weight incrementally across all of those same data points. If you can do all of that and show consistent data that is repeatable in all conditions in all Calibers in all rifles thin, thick, long and short etc then you will have something that is believable and undeniable. I’m not saying it doesn’t work or can’t work. I’m just saying that’s what it would take to actually show you have something. I have a feeling that if you do that you may learn a lot. I think you will learn that tuners do ‘tune’ the barrel in the sense that things change. I do think you will see significant differences in barrel profile and length, and the ratio between those things and tuner weight. I think you will find in certain situations you can very much shrink a group down. But I also think that with most tuners that setting will change every time you take it on and off(better tuners maybe not). And that once you change that environment that tuner setting may not longer work. So yes it tuners work because it makes changes but I don’t think you will find a setting for that tuner and that barrel that will always work. And if you can’t do that it is useless. You’ll walk away with a very caveated conclusion that if you are shooting this style barrel with this tuner weight with this range of calibers then it’ll work but once you have it set you can’t remove it or change your environment without completely retuning. If you can conclude that, which is a big if, it truly is only useful to the benchrest and F Class people and only if they have lots of extra resources and time on their hands to constantly be making changes. I’d also bet that if there is a difference, at the end of the day it won’t be that big and it won’t be worth all of the trouble. Extremely inefficient. Would loved to see the test done and to be proved wrong.

Eric why don’t you and Justin do some testing together. That would be very insightful

If tuner setting affects SD, then this needs to be confirmed over multiple shooting sessions. If it turns out that tuner setting affects the bullets velocity/SD/ES, then one would have to say that tuners work.

Widths are the same. It's all vertical. Show the tuner affecting the width and I'm in.

Oehler 89

Too bad politicians can't discuss it this reasonable

The tuned shots should have lower E.S. at the 1000 yard target because they all took the more similar path. Vertical stringing means some of the bullets left the barrel at a different angle "nose up or down". Talking a frog hairs difference, but logically they wouldn't be the same speed. YES I know tuners work.

@erik - have you tried testing without a tuner(bare muzzle), tuner 0, tuner 10? You’re making a huge assumption that the tuner makes it “better”. What if it’s the tuner making it worse?