Dishonored Critique - Plagued with Problems 

I think it's interesting how you find permanently scarring someone and leaving them to become infected with the plague and lose their humanity, is not too far, having the pendleton twins sold into slavery, and that's not even mentioning the truly excessive and grotesque execution animations, but having Lady Boyle delivered to her creepy stalker for a similar fate is the point where it becomes truly morally objectionable. However, other than that, your alternative suggestions and critiques are well thought out, and interesting alternatives! Worth the time spent watching :)

@@AlyssMa7rin I personally looked at whether the nonlethal solution "fits" the supposed crime. Both the high overseerer and the pendleton twins' fate fit more or less their crimes, particularly with the high overseerer. Lady Boyle's does not though based on the information we receive. It is purely shock value and has no relation to her involvement (her funding the Lord Regent). It's thoughtless and doesn't even fit with what the concept of the non-lethals are supposed to be. People focus on the "fate worse than death" but not the "poetic justice that fits the crime" part. I believe if more people critically looked at it through that lens they would see that. Instead, because it's associated with many people's favorite level it frequently gets a pass. It's also disappointing in my opinion that in a 3 hour video filled with contentious points, many people are most upset with the fact that I think being an accessory to kidnap, r*pe, and emotional/mental violence (as implied by the Outsider) shouldn't have been in the game.

@@kaldini That's what Lady Boyle herself was, though. She was perpetuating the tyrannical state of the Lord Regent with her funding, and her approval by action. The Lord Regent does far worse to Dunwall, and without her it could be argued that his whole state falls apart, as he'd need to seize funding from the nobility, and thus alienate them. Plus, I'd point out that your disagreement with Boyle's fate also is a detail that doesn't strike people as outrageous due to the time period the game is set in. This is the time period where Marriage without assent was almost more common than marriage with it. By our standards today it's morally outrageous, but then so is submission to a totalitarian dictator like the Lord Regent, or even the Empress herself who ruled with (presumably) absolute authority, benevolent as she was. Edit: Also, another point I'd like to point out regarding Daud. I believe he put Corvo in that box, and left his weapons unprotected, was because he /wanted/ Corvo to attack him, and kill him. He's wracked by guilt, and seemingly a broken man. If he dies, then he gets the justice he believes, if he lives, he either proves his old ideology right by killing Corvo, or has a new perspective granted by being spared.

Right?

It was obvious by just those 2 details, and I came to the conslusion by myself during one of my first runs of the game, so late 2012 (the hidden room is easy to find with dark vision), then in the 2nd game, it was blatantly said from the start. About the drawing, I did a high chaos run last week (but only killing hostiles) and still got the drawing.

@@Jean-Denis_R_R_Loret the drawing she does on high chaos is the mask i believe and the low chaos one is corvos actual face

@@thejirenplayerofalltime8981 It's true for the drawing on the wall, but not for the drawing she leaves on the desk behing Corvo's bed. And my memory is fresh, I did a run on the game last week, that gave me this exact configuration. (Yes I got the mask drawing on the wall, because I did a high chaos run, but I also got the "daddy" drawing on the little desk). I basically did a run with few civilian casualties, and choosing non-lethal for the main targets (even Daud or the lord regent) except for Pendleton brothers and Lady Boyle, I decapitated one of the brother and exploded the other one with a greanade. I killed the only real lady Boyle and kept her sisters alive.

Never found the secret room before! Going on a nonlethal play through now and I’ll definitely have to check it

For the lack of choice you mention in part 2, you mention that poisoning the distillery has no effect - it does actually cause a Weeper outbreak once you turn in the safe code to Slackjaw, and they'll fight the thugs, so you need to either sneak past them or wait for the thugs to kill them. There'll also be weepers in the reserve room, making it harder to access the supplies inside.

@@rorysmistakes I think my points still stand. For the note from Piero, it still doesn't answer the base question of what happens to those Weepers. Sure it'll help Piero but does that mean he killed them? Did he keep them caged up to study? If it's the former than it just moves the goal posts because Piero kills them instead of us. If it's the later I think this could've actually been a really cool thing for us to *see* in his lab or somewhere at the Pits. It would've actually indicated some small significance to the choice. For the second point on the poisoned distillery, I think I would hesitate to call it a "outbreak" when the 3-4 Weepers run into the distillery to attack the thugs. In my footage you can actually see this encounter happening and it makes no significant impact on the scenario - the Weepers actually kill the thugs in my footage. I wouldn't consider this meaningful in any regard, and it is the same window dressing of the Weepers under the bridge near Granny's hideout - addition of enemies to make it look like things have changed when really it plays out very similar regardless of your choice. Thanks for watching! I appreciate the comment too.

Just finished the video (or close to it - there's about ten minutes left). This is a great critique that encapsulates a lot of my issues with a game that I otherwise really adore. Ever since picking up Prey and playing through that I've gained a fascination with Arkane, and playing through Dishonored 1 and 2 has only made me appreciate the devs more. Do you have a twitter/twitch or any other socials I can follow? You clearly put a lot of effort into your content, and I'd love to follow you elsewhere, you deserve much, much more in the way of attention than you have (only 50 subs???)

@@kaldini It would totally have been awesome to see Piero's lab for the Weepers. Would've been cool to paint him as a foil to Sokolov in how he treats his patients, to be honest - him treating Weepers with more respect than Sokolov treats infected, but sane victims would be cool - maybe that could even change depending on the chaos you're in. As for the weeper outbreak, I do think that it should've been more noticeable, but it was something that I realized was a direct consequence of my actions when I played through the game. It would've been an awesome setpiece to see these thugs having to keep a defensible position versus a horde of Weepers, but I suppose that's probably a bit too far of a scope for a one-off thing.

@@rorysmistakes Appreciate the feedback! This is currently my own social media I have as I'm just kind of working on videos when I have time on the side. I don't think I could be consistent enough for twitter or anything haha. Maybe one day in the future though!

There's also a note that confirms this iirc.

Did he tho? Did he really betray us, or did WE betray him. His trust and faith in us, didn't we betray that? As we "forced" him to be apart of our killing rampage. No mater how bad we did, not mater the horrible things we did to others, to the world. He still believed we were the lesser of two evils. Or maybe he just has a stander of seeing things through to the end, no mater what. And, even if you don't kill him, he dies later. As he setts out to the middle of the sea, pushed by his guilt over helping us, and drowned by the horrors he helped us committee. Maybe? I mean what the hell do I really know xD I semi "can't" believe people killed Sam, his disappointment and rage at me in the end broke my fucking heart. I, just apologized to him as he drove off.. :/ And yeah, in high chaos we are truly the kind of monster that goes down in legends and is remembered in one way or a other :p

he alerted guards. He wanted you dead even at a cost of his life

I believe that high chaos is how game is meant to be played. Low chaos is for story purposes and it makes us feel good about beeing Goody two shoes, but ultimately we all know what's really fun

@@TrigonAZRikr I don’t like being punished because I like to have fun. Which the game is extremely fun when playing High chaos

you know, while low chaos does have a better ending, i didn't feel like high chaos was a "bad" ending. however, the THOUGHT that it would give a bad ending for playing the fun way is quite a deterrent and is bad.

Appreciate you watching the video!

What do you mean, first? You don't have 50+ hours of playing it like "everyone" els?? :O :O You poor soul! You missed out on so much fun!

Now I feel so bad for not having spared the weepers. It was so short sighted of me to not at least spare one, given we have a scientist in our group.

For sure - it's a cool speech. Thanks for watching!

One of the best improvements made for the sequel imo

Hope you enjoyed it!

@@kaldini I did! Thank you for making it! 🙌🏻

Thanks for watching! I'm currently working on the follow up video focused on the Daud DLCs. A large part of that video is discussing the Slaughterhouse and Draper's Ward levels, both of which feature the most complex choices in the series, in my opinion.

Thank you so much for the compliment! It's appreciated

Chances are very good.

Thanks for watching! Dishonored is a special game series for me too. And thank you for the Joseph Anderson comparison - that is probably the highest compliment I could hope for, as he was my original inspiration to begin making my own videos.

*dishonored*

​@johnwerner6445 thanks king.

Thanks for the compliment. The video critique of the Daud expansions is in the final stages and should be out in the next couple weeks.

Thanks for watching, I appreciate it! Dishonored is definitely a special franchise - hopefully Arkane continues with it at some point

Yeah that would be cool to see, the atmosphere these games have is so surreal, and I've yet to find another game that captures this same style!

I appreciate the watch! What turned you off from the game if you don't mind me asking?

I think this comes down to the fact that gamers can pretty easily conceptualize the difference between characters the game labels as enemies vs civilians/allies. If I went through a level mowing down civilians and the game spat out a bad ending I would understand that. But when I go through using these powerful systems and tools that the game gives me and it punishes me for that in the narrative it just feels bad

Very well said. I also like that Prey had this additional system of how much Typhon material you had injected. It came with the cost of turrets registering you as an enemy *but* you had ways around that through hacking. Consequences for your actions while offering ways around even though consequences. It was excellent.

I’m pretty sure many of those incidents do actually contribute to chaos! Like being nice and helping lowers your chaos level. For example, in one of the games when you prevent a guy from being pushed into a wall of light, it lowers your chaos a bit as well as freeing Sokolov’s prisoners in dishonored 1. I could be wrong tho. Anyway, I do still agree that civilian interactions would’ve been amazing and a more concrete way of lowering chaos and worldbuilding.

Thanks for watching!

I reference the idea you're talking about with vigilante justice during my section on the Lord Regent mission. I also really like the chaos system, and kind of felt like DOTO wasn't true Dishonored without it. I just wish it was expanded upon in game. I think the Lord Regent's nonlethal would've actually been a perfect high chaos alternative, and taking him out as the low chaos. I mean look at the what is happening in the US political space right now to confirm this unfortunately (not saying people should be taken out, but that their misinformation and radicalization occurring).

​@@kaldini I don't care if it's the low or high chaos option. Truth must be upheld. And if the government falls because of truth, then it's its own fault.

Yeah honestly in spite of finishing the game a couple times, finishing their other games, and even watching dozens of essays on the game, I only found out about this and about the music thing.

Really appreciate this comment - pretty much the greatest compliment I could ask for. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts once you've finished or throughout.

@@kaldini bro its 3hrs long though, couldnt you have trimmed the fat? cant possibly expect people to finish it. I watch it to go to sleep though, thats what I usually use these long videos for

@@dripfoe_3307 Lol, this is the style of video I like and so it's the style I want to make. If it's not for you, I just wouldn't click the video as you're clearly not the type of person this video is intended for. Thanks for increasing my views and minutes watched though! Especially if you did fall asleep to it! You likely got me a 3 hours of watch time :)

@@kaldini I probably did but I can't remember a thing because I was sleep. Your video cured my insomnia, thanks mayne.

@@dripfoe_3307 Watch it in bits. It isn't Kaldini's fault you don't understand that RU-vid videos stick around...

Thanks for the comment and the compliment, it's appreciated, especially for a small channel like mine. Any points in the video that you disagree with? I like discussing this game.

@@kaldini One point I'd put forward is this: While I agree that having the relationship between the gameplay (specifically the nonlethal/lethal actions) and the Chaos system be so rigid is not the ideal implementation, I don't know if your proposed solution, at least on its own, is quite ideal either. The real issue (as you say) is that the Chaos system is based on morality. But more specifically, just one moral: Killing=Bad. While it would make more sense to assign chaos level on a per-scenario basis (i.e., which action would logically result in more chaos) this would ultimately exert a similar restriction, or at least pressure, on the player; the low chaos outcome would still be locked behind specific choices. The only difference is that the low chaos choice (still easily equatable with the "right" choice) would be unique (and predetermined) to each situation rather than consistently being: No killing. Again, this would make more sense, but the other side of the issue would remain. The player, or at least many players, would feel incentivized to make each choice in accordance with the game's estimation of what is less damaging, rather than their own personal feelings or opinions. These two things may diverge, after all. Now, this would still achieve what I think is the main point of the Chaos system---that being, making to the player weigh their actions--but might eventually fall into some of the same problems as the current implementation. Something that might help would be giving the player more actions to lower chaos--in the current game, low chaos is essentially achieved through abstinence, the inhibition of certain actions. Abstinence from killing, for example. These are largely passive and can create the feeling of being snubbed by the game (so many negative reviews share the sentiment that the game tells you one thing--Look at all these ways to kill guys!--and then punishes you for using said tools) or at least of missing out. If there were specific side objectives or even side targets (corrupt slum lords, etc) readily available which had the potential to lower chaos instead of merely not raising it, the player could choose to actively lower their chaos level, giving them more freedom in how they approach the main objectives. You could even integrate this into said main objectives: Maybe you kill such-and-such, but you'll also set up a more moral successor. That way only players who truly desire a High Chaos ending would receive one. Obviously an expanded nonlethal toolkit would complement this as well, as proved by Dishonored 2. Although I've always felt the Chaos system in that game isn't quite right either, probably because expanded nonlethal options are about the only changes it makes to the complexly problematic formula. I hope that wasn't too long! Or if it was, you at least found it bearable. Maybe I should've put a warning at the beginning...

@Gaius Fulmen I want to clarify my stance a bit: I do think the chaos system needs to be separated from morality and this would be done in two ways: the story "choices" as well as through gameplay. However I think the biggest factor in all of this is the "consequences." I'd actually argue that I'd be perfectly fine with the chaos = morality system *if* it meant that we got actual differences in levels. Different possible world states similar to what the final mission does. This would encourage replaying the game to play through these differences. Unfortunately, the game doesn't do this so it leads to this roadmap: no real differences outside of ending -> want good ending -> can't kill people -> can't use most of kit. A good contrast to this for me is the Fallout series (specifically 3 and New Vegas). Fallout 3 uses a morality system but I played through the game multiple times to see the differences, which were often substantial. New Vegas doesn't use the morality system and unless it was overtly evil it was sometimes hard to tell what was morally right in that situation. I enjoyed New Vegas more but I don't think that makes the Fallout 3 system inherently worse. They both accomplish what they are trying to do. The chaos system is at its core a morality system, but the problem is that it's a bad one. Because Arkane didn't create enough genuine choices for players and differences to go along with them, the chaos system *had* to be tied to gameplay/players using lethality because there was no other realistic measurement for the system in-game. So by creating more choices they would be able to dial back how much your actions (i.e. playing with the toolkit) impacts your chaos levels. For actual choices I think Arkane could've done two potential routes - one of them I detail in the video in the Sokolov section. Having more options that are morally wrong but low chaos as well as the inverse. This would at the very least have players think about what feels morally right vs what is best for Dunwall. Alternatively they could go the Witcher 3 route where for many of the choices you don't see any potential consequences until 10+ hours later, which makes it hard to save scum haha. Your idea about ways of lowering chaos is interesting and something I want to think on a bit more. My upfront concern would be that it would end up creating the DOTO contract system where (in my opinion) it pulls focus away from what you're supposed to be doing narratively for what I considered not really meaningful side content. I agree with your take on Dishonored 2 as well - I think outside of the Dust District big choice, the game all but jettisons any attempts to provide complex choices. Thanks for the thoughtful reply! I enjoyed reading it and it's given me things to consider as I begin making my next video on the Daud DLCs.

Thanks for the kind words! Dishonored definitely a special series for me as well.

Thanks for watching and commenting!

Thanks for watching and for the kind words! They are appreciated

Thanks for watching! I tentatively agree on Arkane's current direction but who knows: maybe Redfall will be fantastic. Or it'll push them back towards their roots. I highly recommend Prey since you said you haven't play it. I also recommend Deathloop if you haven't played it. It's not as good as Dishonored or Prey but is still worth playing in my opinion.

@@kaldini I will definitely check out prey as soon as I have the mind for it. Redfall...I don't know. I hope arkane the best, but I really wish they'll do something different after that.

Thank you! This game is about exploring from multiple angles. I mean, I discovered new content when I decided to to a playthrough where I stayed on street level for most of the game!

100%! I totally forgot that when writing the script and missed it on my pre-watch before uploading. Still would've liked a bit more explanation of the how the transport worked, but that's even further a nitpick at that point. Thanks for mentioning it!

@@kaldini Tbh It's super easy to miss. I think I found it on accident, actually.

Haha about 6 months. I enjoyed the process - it's been cool to see how much I've improved in making these videos since my very first one (which is awful). Thanks for watching!

Thanks for taking the time to watch it and comment afterwards! Appreciate you.

Thanks for watching!

Corvo "The Rat Lord" Attano, Duke of Karnacha

@@twinzzlers It always make me laugh to see Corvo as the duke during the final cutscene, keeping his mask on 😂, on a high chaos run on D2 (if you kill both Paolo and Byrne, and don't swap the duke and his decoy, indeed).

Yes you can as you go onto the subsequent missions.

Thank you for watching! I really appreciate it

Agreed. I think an alternative solution could've been to remove the combat sleep dart upgrade which makes them instant. Having it be about 3-5 seconds before they collapse would make timing and understanding enemy routes more important because you would have to plan for where they would be 5 seconds from now and if you could move the body or other guards by then in order to avoid detection.

​@@kaldiniDishonored 2 allows you to go for a loud gamestyle and still be non lethal, it improved.

100% agree. It's one of just a few games I go back to replay every year.

While technically we're given an answer, I still think the point stands - what is done with them physically? We don't see them anywhere around the HPP and where is Piero keeping them? And how is he keeping them alive? The situation reads like Arkane sloppily added the note afterwards to try and provide an explanation instead of actually thinking it through. Thanks for watching :)

@@kaldini absolutely :-) Great video though and I agree with most of your points, just wanted to point out that :-)) And I actually enjoyed my play through a lot even with all its downsides :-)) I guess what I would add to the criticism - from my experience, in late game you can fall in the same trap as I did - I became so overpowered that I lost any further motivation to explore the levels in search of runes or bone charms. :) From a game design standpoint I would appreciate if they focused more on the challenge presented to the player in the later levels, with the assumption that you're already buffed and skilled enough. And then drop the player in some real trouble :) The last level was a disappointment for me slightly, because at this point I knew exactly how to go past all the guards etc., and it was just like a minor inconvenience in the way :) Thanks for the reply! I'm soon going to play Dishonored 2 for the first time actually so I'll see if they improved on anything :-)) great game anyways

@@jawojciechdrzymala Dishonored 2's last couple levels are fantastic and are still difficult even with a pretty leveled up kit. I think you'll enjoy them. NG+ also helps with still exploring in later levels because runes carry over to the next playthrough.

Hope it was worth your time!

Thanks for taking the time to watch my exceptionally long video. I also have a follow up one on my channel about the Daud DLCs if you're interested!

Thanks for watching!

Thanks for watching! And thanks for the feedback - I do worry that I come across more negative then I actually am. Dishonored as a whole is probably my favorite series, second to maybe only Zelda. If you haven't started it yet, I also have a video on the Daud DLCs on my channel as well!

Thanks for subscribing!

I agree - it just has a quality or atmosphere that the second doesn't. Although I think the level design in the sequel is far greater in almost every regard

Thanks for watching! I appreciate it. And thanks for the feedback. I think specifically for the Lady Boyle/Hitman comparison I tried to use it more as a show of how basic the mechanics are in the Lady Boyle mission and how if Arkane had deepened them just a bit, it could've been even better (I prefer Dishonored to Hitman myself but giving credit to that series for something it does better). The comparison to the D2 time travel was to merely reinforce this: show that all Arkane needed would've been one special mechanic for the party level that was unique, similar to the time piece. This could've been possessing targets for more hidden interactions between the guests or more in-mansion methods of killing the target to make it look like an accident. Or something else entirely. Just a way of increasing what is ultimately a pretty shallow experience after the original playthrough of the level. Your thoughts on the chaos changes are also likely correct. I imagine we would've gotten less bigger changes instead of more smaller ones. For me personally, I think I would take this as the smaller ones they did were often insignificant. Also please know that despite my critique, this game (and series) is one of my all time favorites! I know I say it at the beginning of the video but after three hours of criticisms it can be easily forgotten. This series is likely only beaten by the Zelda series for me as my all time favorite.

@@kaldini I personally adore the franchise, so apologies if anything came off too strong, I know to make a 3 hour video you must love the game lol

Thanks for watching!

I'm currently about a third of the way through the script for the Daud DLC which will be the next video. Afterwards I'll start scripting the video for the second game but I'm going to try and release a smaller non-dishonored video in-between, so the second game might be a little ways off still. If you're interested I have a couple other critiques on my channel - one for the new Ratchet and Clank game as well as one on Red Dead Redemption 2. Thanks for watching this video, I really appreciate it!

@@kaldini awesome to hear. First saw your post about this video on the dishonored subreddit. Honestly the best in depth review i've watched/heard about dishonored 1. Keep it up!

I don't have to worry about that, because after Slackjaw gives me a key to the neighboring buiding that allows me to infiltrate the Golden Cat more easily, I simply release the weepers on his men, and stab him like a pig. Sorry, not sorry Pendleton. I'm not gonna work with criminals. The rune and the Pendletons belong to me and my blade. And the streets of Dunwall, once the plague is gone, will be safer with one less gang in the world.

Slackjjaw asked the code to the safe, he never stated anything about its content. Huge, HUGE mistake from Slackjaw, you NEVER leave a gray zone for this kind of deal 😂 What would do Slackjaw after that ? He already couldn't do anything against granny rag and ended miserably at her mercy, who wasn't even a trainned "professional" in the 1st place, so his life expectancy against Corvo, with henchmen on his side or not, would be in the stop-time range. That shows up the difference between the marked by the outsider, and the common thug: the commoner stands zero chances (even a Predator's Yautja would not stand a chance 1v1: stop-time, springrazor, done), and that's the point of the whole series.

Very true!

There's no real way to make him go missing without everyone knowing he's dead though, and your head of state just disappearing is going to cause chaos too

2:36:24 FUXK