Finally Missy is out of the bottle and I don’t have to avoid talking about her any more. Michelle Gomez is just so perfect as Missy and any scene with her and Capaldi is just magnetic.
they are not yelling at you are saying you did anything wrong, it is just she has been spoiled before over a particular moment and we are trying to make sure it doesn't happen again, nothing against you personally.
12:10 - "Am I missing something obvious?" Yes - the design of the doors is such that when they close, the windows form the shape of a Cyberman face, complete with the distincitive 'teardrop' on the edge of the eyes.
Indeed, plus the music in that part was New Who's distinctive Cybermen leitmotif which i'm pretty sure has been in every New Who Cyberman episode to date.
The beginning of this episode is so well edited :( Also 6:45 hits deep "Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?"
I loved that scene and it made me feel a connection extending from 11th to 12th. Clara has better chemistry with 12th than she had with 11th, but still, considering all the important moments they went through together even while saving Gallafray, and that she was willing to die saving him by jumping into his timeline, plus their adventures after the regeneration into 12th, he is willing to overlook her bad judgement when she is emotionally affected by Danny's dead.
Well, "clearest indication" _so far_ but yep, great line in a great scene. Series 8 and onwards is where Jenna Coleman really gets to show her chops IMO.
"Do you think that I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference." That's when you finally know for sure how good Capladi's Doctor is.
That's not goodness, that's love. Totally different thing. Many of the most morally despicable people our species has ever produced felt love. Forgiving one you love for betraying you doesn't make you good, just means you love them very much.
The Master was my first guess, but I didn't believe it at the time. I remember thinking "two hearts" at the exact moment the Doctor said it, and I was convinced that she was the Master from that point.
Easily the best episode of the season, one of the best episodes of Capaldi's era, and one of the best cliffhangers in the Moffat era. I think Death in Heaven was slightly less good, but Missy was fabulous all the way through both episodes, she's the best incarnation of the Master by a LONG shot in my opinion, so I'm glad you like her so far! Looking forward to the next one :)
"He believed it was a telepathic communication from the dead" "Why? Was he an idiot?" And "Just hurry up or I'll hit you with my shoe" Are two gems from this episode that I feel are completely underrated
The thing to keep in mind with Clara and Danny is that, while she does indeed like and care for him to some extent, she's essentially using him has a scapegoat to deny her full commitment and feelings for the Doctor. When Danny and that scapegoat is gone, it breaks her a little and she has to confront that, as we see in this episode.
Same here. I was meditating peacefully this morning and then realised this had probably been posted, so I was like screw you mental health this is a thing! It's like Christmas...
It just occurred to me how ironic it was that Danny who is known to hate lies from Clara is to forced to perpetuate a lie (that he's not Danny Pink) to save her using the truth (that he loves her)
Honestly, I'm glad you don't over-analyze things when it comes to the plot. So many reactors do that and miss half the episode because they're too concentrated on their theories, and they end up not really reacting to the episode, but what they think future episodes are going to be like. It can be frustrating.
"Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?" There's not a lot of lines that move me to tears. But that one does it. Such a brutally, introspectively, honest line.
Danny and Clara's relationship was, by design, flawed. From the beginning you could see that communication was always their weak point. Clara refusing to be honest with Danny, etc. So the end of the episode was perfectly consistent with how it was built up. I think you misinterpreted Clara's intentions at the end when you said "she wants to go be where he is". That's what DANNY thinks, that Clara will die to be with him. But what Clara MEANT was that she and the Doctor would find a way to get to him *so they could bring him back.* So Danny's misunderstanding leads him to purposely say "I love you" because Clara had already threatened to break off the connection if he continued. Clara, on her part, believes that the (real or fake) Danny is *trying* to earn her trust, then concludes that it must be a trick because Danny cannot come up with anything other than "I love you" and so she breaks off the connection. It's actually a brilliant piece of writing. I don't think either "Clara going to extremes to try to save Danny" or "Danny not wanting Clara to die to be with him" is at ALL inconsistent with the relationship that was depicted throughout this season.
It was one of those 'Holy shit, they just straight up killed him' moments. Doctor Who main character deaths are always really shocking and unexpected like that (and while Danny isn't really a main character, the death fits those parameters)
Because they are inconsiderate, self absorbed and want to be the first person to tell people things or are the kind of arse gravy that likes to spoil the surprise for others.
I dread it when anyone gives any type of spoiler, no matter how little they think it is. "Oh it's just a gif!" "It's just a hint!" "It's just a quote!". No. It doesn't matter if /you/ think it's not a big deal. People are smart and can connect things, or remember old things said/showed to them. It affects the reactor who's entire goal is to react and experience things fresh and new, and when you do any type of spoiling, it's pretty much thievery of a reaction. Thankfully, Sesska wasn't able to remember till the last minute, but still. It's so dang unnecessary for people to do it.
Some people are just assholes who get a thrill ruining things for others. I remember a news story ages ago when the movie The Sixth Sense came out. Someone had either gotten an early screening or found the script online and drove to movie theaters screaming what the ending was with the excuse of "It amused me and I saved people time and money!" But with social media these asshats can do it without leaving the house.
I think the reason a lot of people didn't take to Clara and Danny being a good couple is because we only saw them together in "snippets" i should say, but with Amy and Rory we had a lot of screen time with them together and watched as their relationship grew to where it was.
Eh, I didn't really like Amy and Rory's relationship either, even though I adored Rory. It had the same problem as Clara and Danny, in that they never felt like partners. Moffat seems incapable of writing a couple where they are equals. Even Eleven and River had River slapping the shit out of Eleven constantly and ordering him around, not to mention them lying to each other all the time. That's why, despite it no longer being an acceptable "ship" in the eyes of many fans, I miss the Doctor and Rose. They were partners. They fought, but came back together in understanding every time, and neither of them slapped the other around, lied to the other or treated the other like an inferior on a regular basis. They felt...I dunno...more real. More like people who would actually be in a relationship, rather than Moffat's fevered imaginings of what would be a "cool" pairing.
@@ms_scribbles how u feel about ten & rose, is exactly how i feel about 12 & clara, except i only see them as platonic, whereas we know that ten & rose's relationship was romantic. i know clara did slap 12 that one time, and they would lie to each other sometimes, but once their relationship had gotten better they were an absolute dream team.
Agree on Danny and Clara. I was trying not to give spoilers in my comment from a couple weeks ago, but basically the relationship is rushed and unearned. It’s manufactured as a plot device just to reach this point, but it never got there organically on its own merits. I don’t have a problem with the characters, and I like the performances; I think both actors did the best they could with what they had to work with, but it should have been written better.
The more I think about it now that I'm seeing these episodes again with Jess' reactions, the more I think that Jenna and Samuel should've been given script input. They were friends in real life IIRC, and whatever chemistry they did have came from that. So I imagine it would've been better developed had they contributed little things to their characters.
I always felt that the awkwardness of Clara and Danny's relationship was deliberate. They were never intended to be the perfect couple, because in fact, Danny was almost Clara's 'rebound' boyfriend. In 'Deep Breath', Vastra points out to Clara that the Doctor is the same eternal being he has always been, and that it's only now that his physical appearance has changed (making him less attractive as a potential partner to her) that she must move on in her relationship with him. It's crucial to the story that Vastra DIDN'T mention any of this to the Doctor himself, as the rest of the season is about the disparity between Clara and the Doctor, regarding their own relationship with each other. So S8 is all about the Doctor struggling to adjust to how his relationship with Clara has changed, while Clara herself is, at least superficially, trying to form a 'normal' relationship with someone more 'appropriate' to her (i.e. someone who is a) nearer in age and outlook and b) actually the same species as her). As for this episode, Clara doesn't particularly want to save Danny because she loves him so much, she wants to save Danny because she is the only one who CAN (albeit with the Doctor's help). It's this arrogance, hinted at in 'Flatline' and expanded upon in S9 that is driving her actions. Not so much a distraught, broken hearted lover who has lost her soulmate, as a spoilt child - 'Well, I'm GOING to the afterlife, and there's nothing you can do to stop me' - throwing a tantrum. I have to confess, on first viewing, I wasn't a huge fan of S8. Now, after re-watching a number of times, and with the benefit of hindsight that came with the wonderful S9, I have discovered so much more to the relationships between the characters, and the subtle way it all meshes together :)
Yeah, I said a couple weeks ago during the "Flatline" reaction that it would've been better if Danny had just been Clara's rebound from the start, since the emotion here that they want us to feel is entirely unearned. But I don't agree that she is saving him out of arrogance. She's not throwing a tantrum or being spoiled. Everyone forgets (partly because the show never reminded us, especially at certain opportunities that it should've) that she Clara lost her mom. She's not close to her dad, and she "lost" the 11th Doctor as well. She also feels guilt for not being the best girlfriend to Danny. So what she's doing is grasping...she's grasping as hard as she can to her earthbound "anchor." She feels guilt at being split between wanting to adventure with the Doctor and "running" from any real feelings for Danny. And when she loses him, she snaps. That's what this is. I have much more to say, but anything more would go into spoiler stuff (especially S9), so I won't.
I don’t know how I haven’t thought of this, but when you finish a show, you should totally start Merlin! That would be super cool to see you react to! Where’s all the merlin fans at?
Gilanes: Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes, hah. Prime time BBC One Saturday night TV (when Doctor Who isn't on, hah). There's lots of us Merlin fans about.
I'm so glad I'm not the only who's annoyed by the fact that Clara would definitely have heard him be hit over the phone!!!! It bugs me EVERY TIME I WATCH THIS EPISODE.
JP Haggerty: Exactly. It was brutal enough to kill the guy. She would have heard several loud bumps and probably a windscreen smashing about 5cm away from Danny's phone. It should have been deafeningly loud.
One of the better episodes of Season 8, imo. You are not dumb, Jess. Stop putting yourself down! I am just disappointed that someone spoilt it for you with spoilers. I loved it when your eyes were filling with tears and you and the Doctor were almost interacting with each other! I have noticed that the Clara haters are now out in force. Yeah, Clara was losing the plot with grief and thought the Doctor could change history, like Amy did in the episode "Amy's Choice", when Rory turned into a pile of dust, but the Clara haters show little sympathy for someone's loss and they use every excuse under the sun to hate her. Personally, I like Clara's unique relationship with the Doctor. Like you, Jess, I wasn't convinced about the romantic relationship between Danny and Clara. It was almost forced, although I do believe Danny cared for Clara, I think he was a distraction for her. In that episode and the next, Clara and Danny's relationship comes to a conclusion. *You can guess that it doesn't end well.* After all, Danny is already deceased. I wasn't convinced they had a future together, especially as Clara was lying to both Danny and the Doctor. Missy is as nutty as a squirrel's farts. She is as mad as a hatter, but she's brilliantly played by Michelle Gomez and you will see some more great performances from her. Stay tuned for that! I found the bit where someone kept repeating *"Don't cremate me"* really dark and disturbing. Too dark for a children's TV show. Did you notice the reflection of the little boy that Danny killed in the iPad tablet at the end? Just one more thing. Other viewers have suggested that you watch another BBC TV show called *Merlin.* I highly recommend it! Anthony Head plays King Arthur's father, Uther Pendragon. Lots of love. Take care, Jess and can't wait for your reactions to the next two episodes! xxx PS. A message to critics. This message is spoiler free. I haven't given the plot away and I do not appreciate being told to edit my comments. The internet is littered with spoilers and I am aware it would be difficult for Jess to avoid them, especially as she is more than two seasons behind the rest of us. However, the future is always the next episode and apart from the Christmas Special, Season 8 concluded with a two-part storyline. Jess has watched one half.
She's treated as her own character because she has basically nothing to do whatsoever with the previous incarnations. She's just too different. I'd argue Missy is a great villain, but a terrible Master.
I can understand that. Personally, I'd say the same for the Master in Series 3 and End of Time. For me, he was too wacky and camp that even Ainley would have said to calm down. But I guess it's fine to have wildly different Masters as there can be wildly different Doctors.
Great reaction. Loved it. What you were missing at 12:00, when the door closed and you see the logo mirrored, it's a cyberman face (plus there's a few notes of the 'Lumic Cybermen' theme music played at that moment too).
Welcome to my second favorite DW character (Donna will always be number 1 in my heart). I love her so much (by love i mean the same way I love Bellatrix 😂)
When you started getting emotional at 6:11 I was like "Just wait. It gets even better." I love that scene so much. It makes me tear up every time. I think that's when I started falling in love with Twelve.
When she said “so sweet” it’s just like the John simm master. I still didn’t get it on first view. I knew about the Matrix from fourth doctor Classic Who. Speaking of, you need to watch fourth doctor episode “genesis of the Daleks ” before next season...
Aw poor Danny. Shame. Moving on. I really like Samuel Anderson, but Danny never really amounted to more than a hastily drawn sketch of a character. Notice how much more interesting he became in the afterlife, when he was given proper development.
'hastily drawn sketch of a character' Really? Orphan who becomes a soldier and then a committed teacher (a progression that is revealing in itself). Confident, charismatic and inspiring to his students, athletic and intelligent (but not one of DWs genius types), yet painfully insecure and and uncomfortable with women he's attracted to. Prickly and defensive about personal matters. A former soldier who clearly has suffered trauma and feels guilt about his past (and the reason is only revealed in this episode) yet is still a firm believer in the value and worth of the military in the face of the common anti-militarism in our society. A character who puts his feelings for Clara before the opportunity to zoom about in the TARDIS, who is strong and principled enough to stand up to the Doctor. Of course his guilt is what led him to become a teacher and also contributes to his insecurity when forming relationships and his touchiness about how the military is perceived. So we have a character who has been conceived in an integrated way, had his entire life progression shown, yet also has separate individualistic traits so that he's not just a literary device. This is a 'hastily drawn sketch' you say? I think I must be confused. Perhaps you actually meant Jackie Tyler or Mickey the Idiot, or Sarah Jane Smith, or Susan, or Ian and Barbara, etc etc because they would all fit that description so much better.
That's not a character, that's a background. They didn't show the impact of that background until after he died. Until then, he was a walking, talking contrivance set up to add some tension to Clara's life.
1. No, only a small part of that is background. 2. Background is part of a character's design and an important one. Danny's is pretty well developed -actually to an amazing degree for a supporting character in a fairly lighthearted sci-fi adventure show like this. Let's break this down: 1. Having been an orphan, having been a soldier and now being a maths teacher is background. 2. Being athletic is, technically, background. 1. Danny being a confident and charismatic teacher is character. 2. Suffering from trauma and guilt as a result of the war is character. 3. Being insecure and awkward when forming relationships is character. 4. Being responsible and having a sense of duty is character. 5. Being prickly and defensive about personal matters is character. 6. Believing in the value of the military in spite of his issues with it and his past is character. 7. Being principled about the Doctor's manipulative tendencies and about Clara's honesty is character. That unlike just about any other DW character who has initial issues with the Doctor he actually sticks to it is character. 9. Caring about Clara's safety is character. All of these things influence his behaviour or actually are his behaviour in the course of the series. They are character. This isn't debateable. Being a contrivance? That applies to every supporting cast member ever. As I've already pointed out this character is developed past that point and includes elements that are not just part of the literary contrivance. The contrivance itself is well developed but its not all that the character is about. He is more developed than any other supporting cast member in Nu Who to date and more developed than a lot of (probably all if I'm honest) the actual Companions in Classic Who. It's not as if I haven't seen these remarks about Danny (and indeed about Clara) before. They're very popular with the Moffat bashing crowd. Whatever. They're still completely wrong -as I've illustrated. Danny is demonstrably a pretty complex and developed character for a show of this kind.
That's fine I have no problem with you not liking something -I only have problem with you talking total crap about something. So yeah, you really should move on.
"Imagine you could upload dying minds to that. Edit them. Rearrange them. Get rid of all those boring emotions. Ready to be re-downloaded. Meanwhile, you upgrade the bodies. Upload the mind, upgrade the body. Cybermen from cyberspace. Now, why has no-one ever thought of that before? " Now is she talking about making the Cybermen...or the concept of regeneration in general?
I always thought that regeneration made more sense if it was the downloading of the Time Lord mind into a pre-existing Gallifreyan vessel body. That would explain why regeneration feels like death and the new incarnations often identify as different people.
Without wanting to spoil the finale, I'd argue that the point of Clara and Danny is that they never quite work, even though they genuinely do love and care for each other. They never quite click before Dark Water, largely because Clara is never able to be fully honest with Danny (who, as we see in this episode, has baggage of his own). I'd argue that's why Clara's so desperate to be with Danny in this episode - not because they're "star crossed lovers" who are perfect for each other, but because she screwed up, *she knows she screwed up*, and she wants to put things right.
Don't worry....very, very few people saw the connection between Clara and Danny. But I think they missed a golden opportunity to remind the viewers that Clara's mom died, she doesn't have the best relationship with her dad, so literally all she has is the Doctor and Danny. It would've gone some way to bridge that gap and explain why she snapped.
Well, I finished it and it was pretty much what I'd hoped for. I especially loved when you worked out who Missy was. Thanks for this lovely reaction, and looking forward to more next week.
in case it hasn't been mentioned already, important notice about the next episode: don't stop the episode before the end credits, for once you have to watch the end credit sequence.
i always saw Danny as a foil to 12 and his character ties into the theme of series 8, even if his relationship could have been written better. the scene where clara asks danny personal questions just comes off as them not knowing each other that well instead of clara being skeptical.
Now it is time we can talk about Missy. One of my favourite character in doctor who. I know it would not happen but I really wanted a doctor who spinoff where Missy is the main protagonist.
khanalprabhat There's a chance Big Finish could do a boxset with her, after all they released The War Master with Derek Jacobi's Master a couple of months ago
I know that people like to complain about Clara. I know people hate her. I'm here to point out that she's my favorite companion, which says a lot for her season 8 and 9 character considering in season 7 she was my least favorite companion and felt like a plot device designed to push the doctor rather than her own person. I know Doctor Who fans tend to be stuck in their ways (the outrage over a female Doctor, not from you guys but in general) proves that. I know they all want some goody goody that caters to the Doctor's every whim and says "How high" when he says "Jump". Clara's not like that. Clara is her own person and she won't be pushed around by anyone.
Clara is her own person for sure. The reason I do not like her character is that she thinks she is superior to the doctor, and that had been done better twice before (Zoe and Romana) and that the show became far more about her and the doctor became her lackey.
Pickled Pudding she’s also my favorite companion although I do agree with the writer, Neil Gaiman, who suggested we should have gotten the Victorian Clara.
I won't argue with this. A big part of my problem with season 7 Clara was that she felt inferior to the Victorian Clara in every way all because I guess they wanted yet another modern day companion. But when she started to develop as a character in season 8 I began to like her a lot more.
Clara is also my favourite companion. I like the complex dynamic and portrayal of two people that deeply love , care and excite one another, but ultimately bring out the worst in each other. It's quite a realistic depiction of an unhealthy relationship.
DentonXV, well said! I also think a flawed companion is more interesting than a "perfect" one. That's why Sarah Jane will never be my favourite no matter how much I do like her, and that's why Series 7 Clara was very underwhelming even though I did like her. This is probably also the reason I prefer the asshole Doctors over the nice and friendly Doctors, though I love them all.
To answer your question on how she couldn't hear, some phones have extremely powerful noise cancellation. I was talking to someone on a super windy day with a tonne of traffic right next to me and they didn't know. 1. You're the first person I've watched who figured out the Doctor was saying where to go. 2. Don't be sorry, the whole 'do you think you mean so little' exchange is one heck of a kick in the feels.
"Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?" = Moffat said that was the closest the Doctor will ever come to telling someone he loves them.
"I'm so dumb" - Jess, you are probably one of the few that caught on quicker than a lot of people I've seen. Some people I've seen didn't guess until the reveal :D I thought she was a classic Doctor Who Time Lady called the Rani if it helps (They even filmed a fake reveal scene where she revealed herself to be the Rani). But oh my god, I've been waiting for this. Not disappointed. This episode was pretty dark, especially the "Don't cremate me" line. Years on, I still get goosebumps from the Master reveal!
Here's a thing I always like pointing out: When RTD brought back the show, he claimed that he was never going to bring back the Master, that he didn't like the Master very much, but it was all a lie to keep the surprise of when he actually brings the character back. Moffat, up to this point, had said in an interview that the Master's story was over and that he had no plans to bring the character back, but... well... It was a lie! Both of them told the same exact lie! And people fell for it both times!
"Weirdly obsessed with her for somebody I don't know very well" 😆 Yep. That's Missy for you. She's THE ABSOLUTE BEST and I love her and hate her and wish we'd gotten more of her!
While it's never stated, I like the implication that, since they were in a building that was bigger on the inside, most of this episode took place in Missy's TARDIS.
At the time I felt as you did: that Clara’s reaction to Danny’s death seemed over the top considering how seemingly underdeveloped the writers had drawn their relationship. But now I think the relationship just was tenuous all along, and that Clara’s reaction was therefore driven as much by guilt as by grief.
The cybermen walking down the steps in front of the cathedral of Westminster is a reference to an exactly the same scene from classic who with the tin foil cybermen
The first time I saw this episode, I was in SHOCKED! when Missy revealed herself as the Master. And I thought she was the Rani all this time, and I was like, "Oh, my God! Missy is the Rani. The Rani is back!". But when she said she was the Master, I was like, " WHAT THE FUCK?! She's the Master?!!!!??? HOLY SHIT!!!" I almost screamed. I was still in shock, for the next few days. But yeah, that was a good episode
My other favourite twisty moment was something you missed. Where the Doctor feels he's missing something obvious. The image of the 3W logo was so well established and accepted as representing earth and the nethersphere. So when the image was mirrored on the doubledoors revealing them to be the eyes and tears of the cyberman, my jaw dropped. Like you I knew they were coming back but forgot until that moment.
I know people are already commenting about this but it's still weird to me that the show deliberately presented us with a character like Clara that has great strengths but also great flaws as well and people hate her for it. Everyone whines about missing Donna or Martha as if Clara isn't one of the most realistic companions the show has ever had in terms of a balance between strengths and weaknesses. Real people are emotional and impulsive and hotheaded, and she's paired with a doctor that brings out "the worst" in her in the same way she brings out "the worst" in him, aka the same exact tendencies, but people don't appreciate it. Come on guys... you can be annoyed at some her choices but you can't write it off as her being hateable, that's so unfair.
There's a massive difference between flawed writing for a character and writing a flawed character and it seems a lot of people misunderstand the two, as if just because Clara's got a lot of flaws and does bad things and the episode frames it as bad things - then she's poorly written and a bad character. Clearly not getting that we're *supposed* to be conflicted and that not every single companion has to be the most likeable person you can imagine.
@@LuckeMasse also, there are times when i don't like my own family members. but it's usually got nothing to do with them personally, and i definitely don't care about them any less when they do something wrong or make a mistake. if anything, it helps me understand them and their needs better. so when people hate a character as realistically human as clara, it makes me wonder how they treat others irl and if they even have any unconditional love for people at all.
The horrible thought is that if when someone dies their body gets upgraded to a cyber man that means Amy and Rory are Cybermen....let's all cry together
