Does This Harry Potter Plot Hole Change EVERYTHING? 

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Sirius: "Id rather die than betraying my friends" Peter: "I'm literally a Rat" James: Say no more.

My head canon on why James or Lily didn't become their own secret keeper is until book 7 no one tried to be their own keeper. Remember wizards have zero common sense

Do you think that Voldemort would have won if he used the Fidelius charm on his Horcruxs (or the location of them). If he was the secret keeper for them, they would never be found as he'd have to die for the charm to be broken, but he could never die because his Horcruxs could never be found. It's a perfect loop.

In this situation, I wonder if they could’ve combined the fidelius charm with an unbreakable vow so their secret keeper would not only be keeping their secret but if they shared it, they would die.

Good theory and explanation, as usual. But I can't help wondering: even as the young Marauders, James had absolutely NO inkling of Peter's true personality, especially as close friends? All those adventures during their time at Hogwarts, with Peter being just as loyal and trustworthy as the others? I've always had a seed of doubt about that. In which case, in keeping with the "throw-Voldy-off-the-scent" strategy when choosing a secret keeper, perhaps Remus might've been the best choice. Just a thought.

I don’t understand how the charm works in the first place - more people than Peter knew where the Potters lived, and owls deliver to and from the house. Also many people knew where The Burrow was, Sirius at least knew where 12 Grimauld Place was, as well as the rest of the Order, and Dobby was able to bring many people to Shell Cottage. The entire concept of the Fidelius charm doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

There is an obvious secret keeper they could have used- Harry. Dumbledore has access to the pensieve, and we have seen that memories could be altered, like Slughorn did- so why couldnt they make a memory to put into Harry with the information. Then Harry wouldnt be able to tell anybody until he can speak.

It’s obvious that it was originally intended that the secret keeper couldn’t stay within the vicinity of the secret but with the order of the Phoenix, it would’ve been inconvenient for Dumbledore not to be able to attend the meetings, so they just retconned it and opened a huge plot hole

One major thing, I think was overlooked in this vid, is the fact that when the secret-keeper dies. All the individuals who knew the secret becomes secret-keepers. I have always found it weird when Sirius says that he would have rather die than reveal the secret, but that does not matter, because when Sirius is dead, Peter is now secret-keeper (we know this because Peter was visiting Potters while they were hiding). I think this is just classic case of Rowling not planning ahead all the stuff. Also if James was the secret-keeper, they would not have been isolated from everyone, because James and Sirius had the 2 way mirror. Which itself open ups all sorts of problems. Why everyone not have some sort of 2 way mirror. Or the coins DA uses. Can't be that hard because students are doing those.

I don't think a Fidelius Charm could be used on a person. That seems like it would be too overpowered and the first time someone tried it, the use for it in such a fashion would have exploded. Seriously, just cast it on yourself and you have invisibility superior to that of even Death's Cloak of Invisibility (aside from maybe being unable to hide from Death?). You're invisible, can't be found by any spells attempting to locate you, make no noise, and are untouchable-- according to what the wiki says that the spell does. You could be the ultimate thief / assassin / spy with the cast of a single spell.

I didn’t see it as a plot hole. Being able to transform into a rat and get away quickly and easily would be a super power during war. And given that person was meant to be one of your closest friends, it’s a no brainer. I think that’s what makes the betrayal even more sad. They were not registered animagus. Even Dumbledore didn’t know. They knew Peter was a coward, of course he’d flee if he was threatened. He didn’t because his friends didn’t understand that he liked them so much because they were so popular. It was idolisation. You have to understand his mentality. An extremely powerful wizard was not hurting him, but the complete opposite, and offering way more glory. One side is saying his weak attributes would benefit them and cause, the other is saying he sees attributes that would give him glory. The difference is that Peter is in the spotlight this time. This is a flip on the Gryffindor characteristics. As for the charm itself and the house, if you can’t see the house, it doesn’t matter which house you use really.

I always thought it was weird the charm didn't really have a limit as to what the secret could be. If it could be something that was common knowledge, why couldn't for example Dumbledore just make it a secret who Voldemort was. One morning all his followers would just wake up and wonder who's this weird ass bald guy, and Voldemort wouldn't have an army anymore. Then Dumbledore could just fight him in a duel, now he's alone. or summat like that

I’m so excited to see the cast for the upcoming show. Can’t wait for season 1…. And also plot hole or no plot hole, we’re all gonna continue loving Harry Potter!

One thing I wondered about, is there any evidence of whether members of the wizarding community serve(d) in the muggle military? I know the wizarding community doesn't use guns and that made me wonder about any wizards in the military

i am actually so excited for the upcoming series because I really think it's a chance to fully embrace the books since the movies don't give more than 40 to 50% from the actual full story and i hope they will do it right

Nowhere near a plot hole. My guess has always been up until the betrayal of the Potters it was always an outside person who was secret keeper and maybe The Wesley’s were the first to do it internally.

There is one thing that doesnt make sense to me still. What actually happened in next 24hrs after Voldy tried to kill harry? Ok, parents are dead, harry is in rubble. How did Hagrid went to potters first? Ok, Sirius was there and only then gave Hagrid the bike. But how hagrid got there? Ok, here i like speculations that bathilda saw rubbles in early morning hours and informed dumbledoor that something is very wrong and he sent hagrid. But why send Hagrid who cant use magic legally? Why not check himself. Its probably Voldy we are talking aboutr, so he couldve checked himself as it would be top 1 priority. Also, it took Hagrid whole day on a flying bike to get to dursleys yet it took him short moment to arrive at potter house? really? How did wizarding world knew that voldy was dead? It couldve been just regular death eater attack. How did they knew that it was Voldy? Did Voldy left his body there? Wizards were celebrating already in early morning, so everyone supposedly knew in early hours (first chapter from Vernons pov). Then there is this scene with snape (movie only) at potters, which doesnt make alot of sense as well. yeah, makes snape look better, but in reality it didnt made sense. How he knew where to look for lilly? Seriously, timeline of events is a mess there.

If Snape had truly changed sides, surely he should have been able to identify Pettigrew as a death eater and told Dumbledore

The reasons for the choice is due to the likelihood of the secret keeper dying. Serious being the one they most trusted, would also be highly likely to die at some point which weakens the spell making everyone that knows the location to become secret keepers. Dumbledore, although the only one that Voldemort feared, was one of the main soldiers in the fight. Same for Serius. Whomever the secret keeper is, needs to be in hiding themselves. James probably thought that this was going to be something that had to be in place for years and years. He himself was probably not planning on hiding out forever. He would want to join in on the fight. Peter is unlikely to die due to their perception of him being unimportant to the enemy. They thought that he could remain in the shadows as Lily and Harry’s last line of defense if the rest of the order were to die.

I have a question. What if James Potter and Peter Pettigrew did the unbreakable vow where Peter Pettigrew must not reveal the Potters' location?

This does bring up another inconsistency. How could Dobby find shell cottage? Neither him, Luna, or Olivander would have been given the secret location by Bill. Ron tells them where it is verbally.

I have always considered the whole thing to be masterminded by Dumbledore as a way to take Voldemort down, he had few to no opportunities to get at Voldemort during the wizzarding war at the time. When he learnt Voldemort knew of the prophecy an opportunity came where he was sure Voldemort himself would attempt to kill the boy, he planned to spring a trap. 1.) First he made sure Voldemort would find the potters by inperiousing Serious into convincing the Potters to use the then suspected rat wormtail for the fedalious charm. 2.) Two Dumbledore took James trusty invisibility cloak from him so that they could not escape with the boy. 3.) Three. He showed Lily how to set up the protection of love enchantment so that if Voldemort did find her, she could sacrifice herself for Harry. After all plenty of parents die for their children to no avail, it surely requires both the loving sacrifice itself AND a difficult magical enchantment placed beforehand. Although Dumbledore was a caring man, he understood that thousands were dying due to Voldemort, and the death of one witch and wizard was a valid sacrifice for the greater good.

Halloween 1981 was on a Saturday, but the first book started on Tuesday, with Harry being delivered late Tuesday night or early Wednesday morning. Make of that what you will.

Pity that Snape didn’t rat out Pettigrew for his betrayal.

Why wasn't James or Lilly the Secret Keeper? 2 reasons; 1 she didn't think of it or 2 she did, but then there would be no story. It's a plot hole that didn't have to be if she just made it so that a person couldn't be their own Secret Keeper.

5:53 But the secret keeper can share the secret with whomever he chooses. In the books Bathilda Bagshot visited the Potters. The Potters still shared their secret, so this scenario there really isn't a difference.

Given the bond of friendship the Marauders shared, I think James knew Sirius, Remus, and Peter for who they were as individuals. I would agree with your point though in that James failed by putting his, and his family’s life, in the hands of someone who was just as much a rat in human form as in his animagus. Peter knew he didn’t stand a chance if left to fend for himself which in turn made him a survivor, even if at times he existed only in other people’s shadows. His lack of popularity gave him the ability to disappear at will without much thought being given to his absence. The life of a scavenger may not have been so miserable for himself and others had it not been for him crossing paths with someone who had severed his own soul into seven pieces in order to ensure his own survival.

So he picked, on the advice of his best friend, his second best friend, whom he trusted He was unsure if he or Lily could be thier own secret keeper, and thier other best friend was a werewolf ... Why hide in plain sight... why not, if you are not protected by the Fidelius charm, then Voldemort could find them anywhere, with it they could hide anywhere, why not a comfortable cottage ...

Awesome as always thanks

Here is another point. Any high profile secret keeper can be followed. If the enemy knew the general area of the cottage they could simply blow up the area to get it. Remember Peter was a lowly wizard and still blew up a city block without a second thought. James needed a secret keeper who was also in hiding to protect his family, not the Hogwarts headmaster who was under observation.

It’s been a long time since I’ve watched a Harry potter Theory Video it feels good to watch it again

Nice theory. But according to the logic you present, James and Lilly could just as easily be each other's secret keepers? Or, if each person requires one secret keeper each, maybe Lilly was Harry's secreet keeper, requiring James to have an "exterior" secret keeper, and that's why they couldn't be each others' secret keeper...

Im dead, not james being his own secret keeper instead of trusting 'known RAT' 🤣🤣🤣💀

yes its a plot hole and yes it ruins it and if she just didnt have bill say that or made it that the charm works only if the keeper is someone outside of the charm then its fine but soon as Bill becomes his own secret keeper and thus making it a rule that you can be your own keeper it becomes the dumbest choice not to choose yourself especially if the secret is for protection.

Lily could have been James's secret keeper and James could have been really secret keeper and James could have also been the secret keeper for his home and none of this would have happened. It would have forced Voldemort to choose Neville Llongbottom to be the chosen one and instead of Alice and Frank Longbottom to be the once killed however I don't know if things would have worked out the same with the love charm I don't know how that would have been of course the Longbottoms could have made the grandmother a secret keeper I'm not really sure how this could have worked out as this is a fantasy world that I enjoyed implicitly

I think the the Potters and the Weasleys using the Fidelius charm differently (i.e James not using himself, while Arthur and Bill do) is due to the Order of the Phoenix learning from past mistakes. Knowing the truth from Sirius, it would make you think who better to protect your own family than yourself. James trusted one of his best friends to his families detriment, so that shows you can't really trust anybody but yourself.

The simplest explanation is the one covered in the video: at some point, they’d have to come out of hiding, but they had no way of getting information of when, so having an external secret keeper was the only solution.

If they did cast the charm on themselves other than the house then it’s possible Voldemort could have just come to the town and destroyed it completely with fiendfyre or something of that level that would probably have killed them anyway if he couldn’t find them. James Potters downfall was that he thought he was good enough but he made a mistake, Harry’s victory was that he didn’t think he was good enough but he was.

It's not even a matter of trust if the selected people could be forced to split the secret regardless of his will. Something like using the Imperio or simply drug them to expose the secret. I wonder if more convoluted method to actually skip the keeper and going directly to the secret are possible like reading his mind or seeking in their memories. I mean, if a letter wrote by the keeper is enough, those other methods are enough too

How does the Fidelius charm even work?

A Snail would’ve been a better secret keeper!

Why wasn't a memory extraction spell used on Sirius when he put on trail?

I thought i was clicking on an old video cause i was watching it but it's new haha

Y’all, alcoholic butter beer recipe. 2 ounces whipped cream vodka, 2 ounces butterscotch schnapps, fill the rest of the glass with cream soda, top with whip cream. taste pretty on par with the butter beer from Universal Studios.

I don't think they could select themselves. I imagine them having little to no time to set it up and needed someone outside so their friends can visit without spending time to tell everyone. So Sirius, after being selected as their keeper, would go around and tell other Marauders, Dumbledore... At least I expect them needing to perform the spell at the place and having so many wizards around at the time could cause problems, at least unwanted attention.

I personally think I came up with a decent answer for it. What if for the fedelious charm to even cast successfully you had to have complete trust in the one you chose as the secret keeper. On top of that as to explain why people later are their own secret keeper. What if the spells not that old and people haven’t really figured out all the kinks on how to use it best.

Another potential option for a secret keeper could have been the goblin in charge of their Gringotts account. From what I understand, the goblins themselves were never targeted by Voldemort or his minions (at least not directly), and the goblins also never had any desire or reason to assist the psychopath. So, in that regard, why not make your account manager the secret keeper? If you consider that the goblins pride themselves on client confidentiality when necessary, and the fact that the contents of a fidelius charm would be the ultimate confidential clause, it only seems fitting to me to have them be the secret keeper.

I didn’t think of this till the very end, but it might be nice to also ponder why Remus Lupin was not considered as the secret keeper as he was a marauder as well.

The could have used the unbreakable vow on the secret keeper as an additional layer of protection.

The better way to do this is secretkeeper and un breakable vow together

I’ve always had this theory and I don’t know why no one else has had this theory do you think the potters lived in the same house that Dumbledore lived in when he was growing up

Something I always wondered was how long was wormtail the secret keeper? A day? Or longer?

They should have gotten more layered with the fidelius charm with multiple secrets and keepers. A friend (Peter with Sirius as the decoy, as was in the story) as the keeper of the secret of the Potters' hiding place. (Potter Cottage) Another friend (Lupin) as the keeper of the secret that Harry is in his crib. An Ally (Dumbledore) as keeper of the secret of who the keepers of the other two secrets are.

Does a spell or charm fade away when a wizard dies? Like, say for example I was a wizard and I put a spell on the floor of the high school I work at to keep it shiny looking all the time. When I died would the floors age or lose their shine?

Ooo it would have been more dynamic if lily was the keeper, trusted Snape and he unknowingly gave up the location

What if the secret keeper was lily’s sister, Petunia Dursley. Voldermort shows up and they act like there muggle selves and die, keeping the secret. They were close once so in an alternate Potterverse it might have happened and we get a completely different story. Maybe Dudley grows up with the Potters and betrays them when he’s older. 🤷🏻‍♂️ HBO should do a what if series instead of retelling the same story seen up to point in the movies.

James was as reckless as Sirius was. I dont believe James would have stayed in hiding the whole time. Or Sirius would of busted him out of Godrics Hollow at least once or twice (the motorcylce fight maybe?) And a lot of the protections in place were centred around Lily more than James. So if James comes out of hiding, and he and Sirius somehow ended up in a fight with a pack of Death Eaters somewhere, Voldemort (or Snape) may have been able to work out that Sirius wasnt the secret keeper, leading them to Lupin and Pettigrew. It would explain why Dumbledore didn't try to save Sirius, and left him to rot in Azkaban. It also sets up Snapes logic clue in Philosophers/Sorcerer's stone and ultimately Harry's win at the Battle of Hogwarts by working out the Elder wand.

I think you are right that the secret keeper cannot themselves be hidden 100% of the time which is why bill is able to leave the house to drop off ollivander. I think in universe James chose Peter for the same reason Hagrid was chosen to accompany Harry during the battle of 7 potters. They wanted to use the least able and least likely person to throw off the scent. I still can’t believe they let Hagrid take Harry though. Harry the The chosen one almost could have died due to Hagrid backfiring repairo spell! Off universe of course retcon by JK to be able to have anyone be a secret keeper

Idk if im alone here, but id love an alternate book where Harry has a normal life and its just a wizard trying to make the Quiditch team and all the normal middle school and high school stuff. I dont want a Twilight, but something thats just "normal".

It occurred to me that placing the secret in the subconscious of a random muggle would have been the best way to go. The individual with the secret blissfully goes on their way unaware that they are the secret keeper. It'd be perfect. And we'd have a completely different story. Everything had to happen the way it did so that Voldemort could find them and attempt to kill Harry. Poor James would be like: but I did everything right??!! Voldemort: Scripted fail! {evil laughter}

The secret that Bill kept was most likely something like "my son and his wife are staying at Shell Cottage, on the outdoors of Tinworth." Which would mean that James could hold the secret if where Lily and Harry were but if Voldemort was sitting there with his nose pressed against the sitting room window he would see James but not Lily or Harry.

I believe the caster of the charm has never been revealed. I maybe wrong though but if it was Lilly Dumbledore would be an option. If it was him then it should be Lilly. And thinking about it if it was a person related charm it would have to retroactively erase the information on where you lived or owned things. Otherwise you could just go to the last known location fiendfyre it and potentially be done.

As Peter aka wormtail was secret keeper...on that night, people who died were James & Lily, Tom partially died, Harry was just a baby... Peter aka Wormtail the secret keeper didn't die. Then how did Sirius, Hagrid , Dumbledore know the place where to find Harry? Why no one noticed/collected Tom Riddle's wand ,well .. how come Tom riddle still had his wand in Hp4 ? Am i missing something? As fidelius charm wont break until Peter dies in HP7 Malfoy Manor. How come Harry Hermoine could visit the old potter cottage at godric's hollow, before Peter's death ?

You forgot the most obvious reason that they didn't choose a different. Because then the story would be over.

It not a plot hole, people are only thinking short-term. Dumbledore is already old and the time frame harry need to be safe is a unknown so making Dumbledore a secret keeper is risky, Having Sirus, Remus, James, Lily a secret keeper would mean one of them has to it out of the on going batter with lord v. Since the risk of death would be too great. So picking peter is the best option in James minds. Since they can now "bench peter the weaker member to protect the house/ harry. The death of james/sirus/Remus/lily/Dumbledore in the on going war harry is still safe.

So, not a plot hole.... this a character flaw in James, for his blind trust in his friends, and flaws in both James & Sirius for thinking they could outsmart Voldermort, and his influence on people. Even someone that they thought was a friend.

the bigger question is why did voldemort not use the fidelius charm to protect his horcruxes?

If Sirius was the secret keeper, they couldn't torture any information out of him, but would the secret have been revealed if they killed him?

Frankly, I don't know why the Order didn't make every member take a truth serum at least once a month just to make sure everyone was on the up and up.

Here's another plot hole from that time. Godric 's Hollow was under the fidelius which is why Sirius couldn't go to Harry's birthday party. So why was Bathilda at the party?

Dumbledore was the only one who heard the entire prophecy, and one of the few intelligent enough to be able to interpret it closely enough. The prophecy states that the Dark Lord will mark the child as his equal, but that he will have power the Dark Lord has not. Which means that at some point Harry and Voldemort were going to have to come face to face, for Voldemort to "mark" him. Harry was an infant and couldn't possibly be expected to spend 17 years in isolation until he came of age to face him. Plus that would mean that Voldemort's reign of terror would continue for nearly another 20 years. Dumbledore would have been aware that Voldemort and Harry would likely or even need to come face to face much sooner. Let's not pretend either that Dumbledore would consider the "greater good" over emotional connections.

The only logical explanation is that there are weaknesses and downsides to the secret keeper charm that we have simply not been informed of. There must be some limitations to it.

"Not even if he had his nose pressed against theit sitting-room window".Well there is another reason why that wouldn't work💀

Will the HBO series show the entire attack on Godric’s Hollow? It’s not super important to me in order to enjoy the story, but I was just curious

the biggest plot is the prophecy. If Tralawny never spoke or mentioned it, voldie would have never targeted lily n james, harry would have grew up in the wizard world and been much stronger than he was, there wouldnt be much in the way of them still hunting things and taking out voldie.. that said, had he not been "the boy who lived" then he may not have got the information he did, and voldie may have done much worse before harry was even IN hogwarts

It was actually a good decision to hide them in "plain sight." If you're looking for something you think someone hid, you'll be so busy trying to look in every possible hiding spot that you won't see it right in front of your face.

Wait then why didn’t Voldy be his own secret keeper for his horcruxes?

If the Burrow was protected by the FC, how did the Death Eaters find it and burn it?

Didnt James choose Sirius? But Sirius doubted himself and chose wormtail last minute? And didnt Dumbledore do the charm?

maybe peter was just terrified of voldemort and when confronted he folded like a lawnchair...

Why didn’t Voldemort hide his horcruxes with a Fidelius charm?

6:58 well he can’t, he hasn’t got a nose. Although he did before murdering the Potters

I say make Harry the secret keeper. Yes, I know it has been said several times in these comments BUT my suggestion has a twist. Have Harry at age 16 use a time turner (1,356,834 turns should do it) and be the secret keeper. That way no one can find out for 15 years.

I think you are right on this one

Sirius was afraid of Voldemort? That’s why he told Potters to choose Pettigrew.

They should have chosen Moody or Dumbledoor or Lupinn

Being your own secret keeper is just a really stupid concept. I think it's implied that you have to pick someone else.

I always wondered why Sirius wasn’t chosen. The reason was because he’d be an obvious target but so what? Sirius said he would’ve died rather than betray the Potters and I see no reason why we shouldn’t take him at his word. James and Lily’d potentially still be alive to this day if Sirius was chosen.

I don't think a person CAN be their own secret keeper. HOWEVER...why didn't Lily serve as James' secret keeper and James serve as Lily's?

Not choosing Dumbledore shows how stupid they were.

Why not Remus? He meets all the same requirements that Peter did.

Sigh... this is why you shouldnt do plot holes from just the movies.

Truly immortal can be achieved just make a Horcrux and then make yourself secret keeper. No one can find Horcrux, no one can break Fidelis charm

The real loophole would have been using this charm to cheat on every school test. Make someone your secret keeper that you have all the answers with you going into the test.

The correct use of the Fidelis charm was to use itvto hide the contents of the prophecy and Dumbledore as the secret keeper. Thereby erasing the reason tonhide the potters or longbottoms.

The movies ''Destruction of Burrow'' was stupid. I understand why it is there but still.

Or why not have Sirius be the secret keeper and then have say Dumbledore be Sirius's secret keeper?

Harry Potter has so many plot holes trying to speculate about things in the story is pointless. I mean, the time turner? The fact that Hermione is given one simply so she can go to more classes would imply they aren't the rarest of objects. All of a sudden we are in a world where any determined witch or wisard could theoretically get their hands on a time turner and change the past at will. This completely ruins any kind of logical story telling. Why didnt one of the death eaters use a time turner to make sure Voldemort never died? There are infinitely many ways in which a time turner could be used to completely change the story at any moment in the story. Harry Potter is not a cohesive story. It's a fun story. But the world it creates fundamentally doesn't make logical sense on so many levels. It is no LoTRs. There are so many story breaking problems with the harry potter world. Another one is the unbreakable vow thing. Why doesn't Voldemort require every death eater including Snape to make an unbreakable vow saying that they would never betray voldemort. I could go on forever. It just frustrates me that there are people that compare what Harry Potter did to what the LoTRs did. And i think there is NO comparison. There are way too many ways in which you can completely ruin the story of Harry Potter by just simply thinking how the characters would actually logically act.

Why didn't Harry Potter light the ghosts with his own hands? Sabab uning ruxdon ekanligidami?