As an individual who started out preaching the positive-only mantra (and saw it not only as an acceptable concept but the ONLY existing acceptable concept), I can definitely say with absolute certainty that competing motivators are the largest reason why I opened my mind to the idea of balanced training. Simple logic and understanding of operant conditioning told me that THIS was the reason why certain trainers would claim that high-drive dogs need corrections. I think what a lot of positive-only trainers don’t understand is that using corrections does not equate to no rewards. Truly balanced trainers will use enough rewards to balance out the corrections, creating happy dogs. For those that want proof that the dogs are, in fact, “happy”, studying body language for a few hours should tell you exactly what I mean. Balanced trainers produce some of the most driven, exuberant, happy dogs I’ve ever seen. It’s unfathomable for these dogs to be seen as abuse victims, case closed.
withholding a reward or stimulus is a form of correction as well. The 'debate' is trivial. No one is okay with lighting up a dog with an e-collar set to full or arguing that beating it with a rod is effective training. Ideological thinking and vested interests blow it out of all proportion.
Notice how positive only IG trainers only give you examples with the same well behaved puppies and literally NEVER show up to with a different difficult reactive adult dog
The "perceived threat" is a concept a lot of dog owners don't understand. This is where they say the behavior " came out of nowhere". The owner may not see a threat, or there may not be an actual threat present, but the dog "perceives" a threat and acts out. All dog owners should also learn to read canine body language. You can fairly easily stop an unwanted behavior if you read the dog. Great talk!
I have a 6 yr old Walker Coonhound. I can tell you when exactly he would bite. All of it stems towards his drive around my wife. You can't even flick your nose at her without him near. When we walk, i see just how many owners don't recognize and understand their dogs.
Best video of yours I've ever seen. Hit the nail on the head. I will be sharing this with many of my clients. Looking forward to more of this lectures. I will have to find them in your collection of videos. Keep up the great work!
Such a great lesson. I started as a purely positive trainer but once I started taking on real life cases, realised very quickly that those pre-existing issues had to be blocked so the dogs could choose alternate behaviours I could reinforce. I was honestly quite scared the first few times I corrected a dog. Now my slip lead is my tool of choice. The skill is in reading the dog and bursting that escalation bubble every time it's pressure builds. Let the dog calm down and regroup and try again.
I would give the video a million thumbs up if I could! Thank you for your sane common sense approach Robert. The amount of aggression and bites I've had to deal with in my 8 month old positive only spaniel has been devastating. The level of aggression was so intense that there was no way it would've been fixed with treats. It was like dealing with a wolf. I didn't think he was going to make his first year! Only now I'm starting to see change - desensitizing him to the situation, rewarding for the good behavior, but having a correction ready if needed for dangerous behavior. He is starting to make good choices and we are making progress. Thanks for all you do.
Thank you for taking the time to approach the dog with a balanced technique. The positive only crowd is fast to criticize and faster to recommend the needle. Good work my friend!!!
@@RobertCabralDogs, here in Thailand it's extremely difficult to purchase quality collars, toys, leads etc for large strong dogs (I've got pit bull/ridgeback cross rescues). I've never found slip lead. Will a martingale collar work effectively, or is there an alternative type to the slip lead?
@@RobertCabralDogs I am sorry but that is not correct at all! It's not about treats its about learning the dog behavior, why they act a certain way, and learning how to condition the right response. You never use aggression to treat aggression. "Training for compliance is not the same as training for motivation." - Tecla Walton
What a great explanation for why balanced training is really the only approach that makes sense. You can spot positive only trained dogs anywhere. They are usually off leash and not at all interested in coming back to their owner. I use an ecollar and a prong, prong only corrections were simply not enough. Ecollar unlocked a fantastic communication option, and after learning and studying my dogs body language I can stop aggression before it builds with a low level ecollar correction. Honestly it’s about finding what works for you, and not accepting or excusing bad behaviour.
Thank you for posting this lecture. I have a service dog and having a "sterile environment" is so unrealistic. I'm so lucky to have both a stable dog and great trainers and mentors to guide me to accept the predator in her and guide her accordingly.
Robert, I Love your programs and posts. It’s amazing how many dog owners don’t know these basic training tips but continue to buy or rescue powerful breeds and wonder why their dogs bite or don’t have any manors around their family members or friends. To the reader, Please, Please, Please, if you purchase or rescue a dog, spend a little extra and hire and experienced trainer like Robert to help you!
Thanks for making this video, I rescued a 5-6 months old Belgian Malinois was very abused and he's been very hard to work with, keep up the great teaching
Because of this video, I made the biggest progress in training since I own my RR (he's 11 months old now). I feel a huge difference on a walk after just 3 days of training in the yard. I used positive training, without using the right word corrections. Now my dog knows what NO means and results are amazing! I was looking for that kind of information for a long time. Thank you very much for this video, and greetings from Slovakia :)
Excellent video. I raised a pitbull 13 years ago using caesar's advice and that dog turned out great. Powerful breed. Now I have a German shepherd puppy and I'm trying to use positive training primarily, but I really like the balanced approach you promote. Thank you
This is an excellent explanation of how a dog learns. I view positive only dog training no differently than raising a child with never reprimanding that child. You end up with a spoiled child who never learns boundaries and a child who becomes a problem teen or worse. A spoiled child may end up in prison later in life. A dog loses their life. And it’s no one’s fault but the owner’s.
Good Video! One of the best points made is to get the dog BEFORE the drive is so elevated that it is to hard to bring the dog back down. A common mistake is to allow the dogs drive get too elevated before attempting to refocus the dog back on the handler.
Well said, as always. You’ve captured the essence of the issue and perfectly summed up the argument for negative reinforcement. I’m sharing your video as much as I can to help get the message across regarding the need to teach your dog correction. Big thumbs up... well actually it’s quite little, but you know what I mean!
I love your training i hear so many people against prong collars i know how to use them by watching your videos. You are so right !!!! I think i have shocked her in #4 which is nothing one time. All i have to do now is pick the remote up and she stops….. your videos have shown me so much. It is constant enforcement of the same thing over day its cruel. No what is cruel is chocking your dog on a regular collar. Thank you
I finally understand what structure means a little more clearly thank you so much for this video! My love for my malinois has gotten in the way of me being a responsible dog owner he’s 4 months old now and I’m having to be more stern due to all the scars on my hands.
Currently using this with my dog and i 100% agree with this it makes sense and works a balanced training...love your videos thank you for all your knowledge
Since I have been watching your videos I have noticed a major improvement with my dog thank you very much I will keep watching. I feel like leash reactivity towards other dogs is my last obstacle with him. I never knew the correct way to correct him without breaking my bond
Dieter Albrecht, Ger. Seit 30 Jahren halte ich DSH und betreibe IPO-Sport. Jetzt im Ruhestand habe ich Zeit, intensiver von YT-Infos zu lernen. Meine Kenntnisse und Einsichten haben sich insbesondere durch deine Filme stark verbessert. Ich profitiere schon seit 3 Jahren davon. Ich wollte mich schon längst mal ganz herzlich bedanken für deine grossartige Arbeit. Nachdem ich jetzt erst mitbekommen habe, dass du es natürlich auch auf deutsch verstehst, übermittle ich dir meinen Dank auf die Weise, die mir viel einfacher fällt. Wobei, ich lernte von dir schon sehr viel über Hunde, inzwischen bist du für mich auch mein bester Englischlehrer. :)) Nochmals vielen Dank. Ich bin überzeugt, du hast auch in D eine grosse Fangemeinde!
thank you for making this video, i’ve been trying to explain it this exact same way to people that attack me for using tools so my dog doesn’t react to other dogs!!
Really appreciate you sharing this Robert. Got a 4 month old female GSD whos prey drive is something else. She also barks at EVERYONE. Any advice would be greatly appreciated buddy.
@@johnbrown9060 Introduce exercises that work on impulse control like 'leave it', down stays, sit stays, 'wait', stopping at door ways. Always use the same release command and reward generously for even brief moments of success. Young dogs have no impulse control and need lots of work to develope it.
As a professional dog trainer for 15 years who just hapoened upon you videos, I couldn't agree with this video more. While I teach with positive reinforcement, I also correct when necessary. If I do my job properly, there will always be some corrections or I'm not proofing at a bigh enough level. I also agree with you about aggression. Yes, I can reward a dog for no reaction at distance, but it is my job to proof the dog no matter what. So at some point I'll have to correct. I start with a prong then graduate to an E-collar. Good job!
Great video. However, if you would use an electric collar in a situation where the dog is reacting with anger out of fear, there's a huge risk that you would increase the dogs fear. I'm totally pro not only using positive reinforcement but u always have to keep in mind that whatever u do, u rarely reinforce or pair only one stimuli or behaviour.
This is such an eye opener. I have a fear aggressive labrador and started training her years ago. My main goal was to help with her fearfulness. In the beginning I decided only to use positive reinforcement. I trained like that for about 2 years with my lab and it helped a little bit. As her confidence grew that's when she became very dog reactive (she wasn't before I started training her, she was too scared of her surroundings to pay attention to other dogs). She would always bite first if other dogs came close to her. Postive reinforcement wasn't working for her reactivity like it did with her fearfulness. As you said in the beginning, her instincts mattered more than any food I had. It wasn't til I started using corrections, a muzzle, and a chain collar that her reactivity actually calmed down. I don't have to be scared my dog is going to attack another. Her recalls are better and she's a happy dog. I'm glad to be learning more because of videos like this!
Totally agree I teach new behaviors with positive reinforcement but to make sure that my dog don't fail when he doesn't consider that he wants a treat then I apply a correction so he knows that there's a consequence like a normal person having a job I mean I go to work because I like my salary but I know that I must go everyday because If I choose not to then I'll be fired, If I knew there were no consequences I'll only go when I want it to and have my paycheck
One of the best videos I’ve watched that’s explains prey drive and easily understood. I’ve been struggling with my dog and now I’m sure balance training is the way to go. I have an amstaff with very strong pray drive and training has been rough. I think I just need more time to keep at it. Do you have a video that shows how to use a slip lead properly while correcting a dog? I worry I may choke my dog cause he can pull hard when he wants to chase something or react to another dog.
I could not agree more with your video. I too am mostly positive but I also use negative markers and corrections. I Personally though do not use pinch or choke choke chains. I prefer to use a harness on my Ruby, if she is to have anything on. But most of the teaching I do with Ruby is in my backyard or inside the house.
Another fantastic video -- couldn't agree more man. As a primarily positive trainer, I gained a ton of valuable info/advice from this video AND it helped me flush out and refine my own ideas on the topic. Thanks a bunch man!
Positive training is NOT about rewarding desirable behaviors and IGNORING undesirable behaviors. There is management, impulse control, no-reward signal - there are lots of other training tools that may be used, also with high-drive dogs. This talk does NOT demonstrate the shortcomings of positive-only methods. It merely demonstrates the shortcomings of positive-only methods AS IMAGINED (or manipulatively MISREPRESENTED) by people who either know little about them or misrepresent them for manipulative purposes
Well, the only manipulation is that narrative pictured by this pure-positive sect that persistently tells everybody that it's possible to educate dogs (and kids) with positive reinforcement only. That's the biggest lie that has ever been said, because it's not about if it's possible or not to manage any dog with rewards, somebody skilled enough may achieve very interesting things, but not anything, as you CLAIM it's possible. The problem is that this ideology pictures a world for the dog that doesn't exist, is not natural. Dogs correct themselves continually and don't hate each other for doing so, the mother correct their puppies when they misbehave and the puppies understand it, and don't hate their mother because of it. But, of course, the pure-positive cult knows much better than mother nature. You talk about those magical "tools" to manage even high drive dogs, ok, why don't you enlighten us?, what are those tools?. The very foundation of this pure positive fairy tale is rotten at its core, no matter how many reasons or arguments you try to use to justify or support it, it only works in your delirious heads. Life is not purely positive for any living creature, there are always aversives, stress, pressure, fear, etc and it's about to learn to cope with it and manage it and not to try to eliminate it to live in an everlasting rainbow. Dream on!.
Positive-only dog training has several issues, but I think the BIGGEST two issues are: 1. Positive-only requires quite a lot of knowledge and skill to do it correctly, because it's all about timing and reading a dog's body language. If you miss the exact timing to give the dog a treat/praise, then you've missed the mark, and the dog won't learn. The average Joe doesn't have this level of skill - the very reason why he/she has problems with his/her dog in the first place! And sadly, most people don't want to spend that much time and patience to train their dog. 2. Positive-only takes time to succeed compared to balanced training. The longer the training takes, the longer the dog stays in a stressed state. Also, if it's the case of shelter dogs in a high-kill shelter, they don't have the luxury of time. For these kinds of dogs, they need quick results. (I'm sorry to mention him, Robert) In Cesar Millan's "The Dog Whisperer", Apollo the Rottweiler had only 24 hours to greatly improve his behaviour before the shelter euthanised him. I can bet you that positive-only dog training would have failed him.
Yep ,we got to sop dogs being destroyed due to this purely positive idea. Dogs are not people and have such different needs and requirements. Thanks Robert . You explained this very well.
These videos are so informative. I have been a life long Dane owner and have never experienced any protective /aggressive behaviors until we recently got a Doberman puppy. We observed the parents on site, and both were sociable and sweet. Our puppy(5 MO) is very protective of our property and barks/growls when we take her to parks etc. We do not want an aggressive Dobie. She is attending puppy class and was initially very aggressive towards the other dogs (hackles up, growling), but is now more excited and anxious to get to class. The trainer of the class we are attending has Shepherds, and also does corrections for negative behavior. I would appreciate any advice to as to welcoming family etc into the home. She is very intelligent, and so loving to my husband and I. We do not have children, and live in a rural area. We love our Annie, but being a Dane owner (who used to go to shows etc on a regular basis with nary a bark), this is a new adventure. Thanks Robert!
In humans and all animals, not just dogs, there has to be a consequence for an action that is an undesired action especially if the action is a dangerous one.
Ideally you really want the dog to do what you tell them because they love you and want to please you. But please seem to forget discipline and structure. Children as well as dogs need those two things to thrive.
Couldn't you prevent using punishment by keeping the dog under the threshold of reactivity or by helping them develop impulsive control through positive reinforcement?
I paid an akc professional trainer to train my dog and then I got trained with my dog. The BEST investment I made for my dog. A well trained dog with a well trained owner means a long and happy life. Watching your videos has reinforced to me that I did the best for my dog. 👍🏼
If you always follow a ‘no’ with a redirection or reward for stopping it’s a positive interruptor. This is preferred to a ‘no’ because it provides little info...any noise that stops a behavior is an interruptor, if it’s followed by reward or yes etc it’s a ‘positive interruptor’ loved by positive trainers worldwide. It’s also technically a ‘punishment’ because it decreases the behavior you are stopping with the no, but by reinforcing another behavior (typically looking/coming to you). On a stretch this could be an Ecollar stim too, feel sensation turn and look but most positive reinforcement trainers would never condone this or would say to use a noise instead. Also a tight leash or jiggle can be conditioned to be a positive interruptor if taught to look etc. it’s all about not just saying no without rewarding something immediately after, just stopping the behavior you said no to could be rewarded. On a crazy note try saying yes instead of no and see what happens. It will also get the dog to turn and look at you if you’ve properly conditioned it.
Really sick of people who think their well-bred Border collie or Cavalier from good circumstances is the same thing as an Akita or Mastiff. There is more than one type of dog! You don't treat a nine year old Bichon the same way you treat a one year old Malinois. It would be madness.
I own a real Red nosed pit bull male, intact and I hope yr reading this coz he is the most loving, friendly, non aggressive dog in this world. I spoil him rotten. No he isn't very well trained but he is proof not all Red nosed pit bulls are aggressive. He is amazing..a big softy!
People, Robert is the penultimate dog trainer...actually, people trainer to own dogs. I do know an awful lot about dogs and training and yet I am a NEWBIE. Robert, I still have a boxed E collar. I have NO IDEA HOW TO USE this tool. My two major high prey drive boys might benefit someday from this collar. I've had so many dogs and these two take my breath away with this DRIVE! That is why we are working on Urban Mushing. Do you have videos on E Collars? Yes, I can see how wonderful it is as a tool where I can 'reach out and touch my dog' to remind him to come back to earth and listen to mommy? Makes my LEASH much much longer. How does one use these tools? Positive training only is just like any type of program or idea that someone has gone TOO FAR bottoming out the needle on one side of the spectrum.
All aggression is reactive is the best phrase to describe a dogs aggressive behavior. Taken more broadly, all behavior is reactive is just as true, good or bad behavior, dogs are just reacting to their environment and their experiences. The phrase I hate most, even more than "pack leader" is "this dog is unpredictable". Unless there is a neurological issue in play, no dog is unpredictable. You just aren't paying attention to the "why" they do the things they do.
Thank you very much for this information. I felt really frustrated with all the youtube trainers that make demonstrations of how to control dog aggression with trained dogs acting out their aggression. All of them using positive training only....yes! because their dogs are already trained! Maybe they never even experienced dog aggression. It was definitely not working with my two GSDs
It’s the rarest of times when a dog can be counter conditioned to aggression with positive only training. Trainers who tell you. It to use corrections are really doing a disservice to dogs. Corrections must always be an option if you want to help a variety of dogs.
I was really against pinch collars until I saw this video. I have a 7 month old gsd who has a high predator drive and I am having trouble in training him through only positive training, but I will give this a shot after I learn how to properly use it.
Prong collar was my last resort for my 4 year old GSD who just pulled at everything even on a halti which he would hurt himself while wearing it. Prongs basically allow me to exercise my dog more.
As a long time balanced trainer (22 years in business) I use mostly positive reinforcement to teach obedience, along with e-collars (I don't call them electric or shock collars) to proof the obedience and to stop bad behaviors. Sometimes I use a prong collar for specific kinds of problems, but I never use slip collars because they are too hard on the dog's neck and throat. I did use slip (or choke) collars 50 years ago when I ignorantly followed the Kohler Method of Dog Training, and I still cringe when I think about it. As for Caesar Milan, his notion of showing who the "pack leader" is by forcing a dog to roll on its side is both dangerous and ineffective. Other than that, in my opinion this video offers sound advice as to why purely positive dog training almost never works, at least not to get a reliably trained dog.
agree with you 100%. i have been engaging the positive reinforcement approach with my Bernese Mountain Dog. It appears that this approach may actually be reinforcing some negative behaviors since he is not having consequences crossing the line. The dog has been completely ignoring me sometimes when he wants to do sth so much. And I have been wondering how would he learn if he doesn't know what he is not allowed to do. thank you for your video.
Where can I learn more about reading a dog? I have a 3 legged American Bulldog mix shelter dog that reacts aggressively to about 30% of the dogs we encounter. I think it’s a fearful response. I’ve exhausted all of my knowledge, I can’t anticipate which dogs he will be aggressive toward & don’t want to assume he will be negative when he usually isn’t. Thx!
I got a 8 year old German Shepherd when I rehomed him at 5 he wouldn't get along with our little dog now they are best friends now I got a Belgian Malinoi and how can I get them to get along
3 questions ... 1. So, stopping unwanted behaviour will not make my dog-reactive dog, dog social right (I think it is a lost cause but I wish there was a solution, I am assuming if we can't cure PTSD in certain humans, some dogs may never be cured.) Can I at least get him social with one particular dog he doesn't like (even if the dog isn't fixed and mine is)? 2. Will I walk on eggshells forever in fear than a negative stimulation will render my (sensitive) dog fearful of something new? 3. Also, he seems to have started looking to me in stressful situations, which is great but if I acknowledge a new fear with an interaction reward am I approving that the situation is stressful or am I just reinforcing that I am his reference for safety? I'll take any help!
1) You say a dog may "perceive" another dog as a threat so it reacts first. So what is this kind of aggression based on? And when I say "perceive", I'm talking about dogs who seek out other dogs and react and attack unprovoked. I hear a lot of people say reactivity is most always fear based aggression. If I'm scared I assert my dominance first. After all the best defence is a strong offense right? However if it's truly fearful doesn't the dogs fight or flight instict kick in? Self preservation will choose flight before fight in a majority of breeds, No? 2) How do you handle dogs that re direct onto their handler. Or react aggressively towards the handler when given a correction?
If your dog is on a leash how is he supposed to "flight"?!... That is called "leash reactive dogs"... "Redirected aggression" is mostly based on frustration... Frustration not to be able to "fight" or "flight" the situation that makes them unconfortable... If your dog is aggressive towards other dogs and redirect on you I would suggest to work with a trainer...
I don't agree that only punishment will override dogs' instincts to chase. Dogs learn by repetition, management of the environment, and how rewarding initially that behavior is. Playing with reinforcers and repetition as well as managing the environment can teach the dog to ignore the chicken, no need for punishment. But, in human nature is a lack of patience for learning, let's not forget that dog training is about building a relationship with your pet, its a journey NOT a destination.
Good point about motivators, but the only reason punishment is necessary in the situations you describe is because the dog is being worked over threshold.
you do not have to hurt or beat an animal to correct it. But you have to correct it - otherwise how would the dog or horse or even cat know where's a boundary? They have no crystal sphere - give them a break. Give them a chance to adapt to us. Also, animals correct each other and sometimes they are not nice doing this. Watch horses... A pins back his ears to say to B: Stop the crap, go out of the way, do not bother me, my bowl, my grass, my girlfriend etc. If B does not listen but insist, A would go after him and use his body, his teeth, his hooves or at least threaten to use them and hurt B. Or chase him away from the group so B has to modify his behaviour. So, whats the problem?
My staffi saw a rabbit yesterday,he started to chase but forgot I was at the end of the lead!! Thankfully,or I'd still be looking for him!! Thanks Robert,great talk as usual! 👏👏
That's something you're kinda ignorant about. You think positive reinforcement is about teaching the dogs tricks. But with dogs that have prey drives you need to teach them impulsive control. You start out slowly but as the training escalates that treat will turn to a ball, that ball will turn to wheels, that will turn into animals and people, etc. You'll teach the dog to ignore it's instincts to chase or bark by desensitizing the dog to movement and sound.
If the focus of the dog is on objects and not on the human there is no human control over dog. If you try to control stimulus instead of the drives you fail miserably. This is exactly why “positive training” crumbles .
@Jen D. Positive reinforcement is not the issue. The techniques itself aren't the issue. The problem lies in the execution of those techniques. Yes, it is wonderful that you try to use positive reinforcement, but your intentions are one thing. How you are executing the training plan, your timing, your consistency, etc... is a totally different factor. The definition of positive reinforcement is adding something to increase behavior. Meaning if you add something and it increases behaviors, you use positive reinforcement. If you tried to use positive reinforcement and if it didn't work, you didn't use positive reinforcement. You can prevent undesired behaviors from happening in the first place.
What would be the best way to correct a chihuahua. Mine is a two year old shelter dog. I have had her just over one week. I am concerned she will slip her harness, she slipped the one she came with but I managed to grab her. Now I have a tighter one. I am concerned putting a regular collar on such a delicate neck but worried she will do more damage to herself with this aggressive but fearful behaviour toward other dogs.
Why doesn't the correction make the dog more aggressive and/or afraid of you or reactive to you (redirect his aggression to you? Is it because there is always a reward when they give you the behavior?
Because of your relationship. If you're their everything and they understand that you're in charge of every decision then corrections work plain and simple. It's a reminder that you're the one that makes the decisions and it's for their own safety when it comes down to it. Dog training should be simple.. Reward the good/safe behaviours you want and correct the bad/unsafe behaviours you don't want. It's the simplest way for dogs to learn in a language that they understand without the confusion.
Same reason why you don't redirect onto your friend if they poke you when you're being a dick to another person. A tug on a leash, pressure, uhuh does not hurt and should not hurt the dog. They have much thicker skin than we do, and their fur acts as armour.
So its ok to do a little negative reinforcement like a tug correction? I have a Shar pei that is about 5 months now i don't use any of the gimmicky collars as i know shar pei don't take well to anything like a shock or shock collar. Ive bèen doing a lot of clicker training and positive reinforcement i try to not be negative to avoid aggressive behavior in the breed ive been walking him around in public and socializing him with all people since the day i got him at 8 weeks he seems like hes doing good excitement and jumping aside he eventually calms down and lays down. I just want to avoid him being aggressive to people and other animals. I try to refrain from doing something like a tug on a leash because I don't know if that is ok. Now let me be clear he doesn't seem to have any kind of aggression to strangers when i walk him but its a known thing in shar pei to get aggressive and i want to avoid him showing any signs of being aggressive to others
So genuine question- you say correction is needed and I used to believe that- but then I watched Emily Lerhler take two hunting dogs who had prey drive at the level where they would injure themselves to get at prey and make them completely non-reactive to prey animals, while using only treats and a clicker. I wouldn’t have believed it but she showed the process start to finish and those were two insane dogs who are completely reformed. I also read up on the scientific studies- it seems behaviorist say force free is best. I want to train as accurately as possible, so bring me around to your POV- why are these methods, which you say will fail, succeeding for other people?
