I agree, but for a different reason. So you gotta keep in mind that back before Quake II there was a rhythm to how id functioned, and it went something like this: 1. Eldritch Psywizard John Carmack creates a game engine that changes the entire industry. 2. The team develops a game within that engine with a shareware episode and 2 additional shareware episodes. 3. They continue to crank out further retail episodes while All-Seeing Exonaut John Carmack develops the new engine. Commander Keen was 7 episodes altogether, 2 shareware, one weird one in the middle made for softdisk, and 4 other registered episodes. Each episode launches individually so depending on your perspective it's either 2 games with three episodes each or 7 individual games which can be bought in collections. Wolfenstein 3D started with the same situation described in step 2 and then they created an expansion that was 3 new episodes which they would start sending out to anyone buying the registered version, so you'd actually get 5 additional episodes instead of just 2, all of which could be selected from a single menu in-game so it could be considered all one game. Spear of Destiny was a retail only prequel with no shareware episode where instead of playing distinct episodes you played straight through the whole 21 floor map set in one go. Spear of Destiny was later expanded by a third party company called FormGen which developed two additional Spear of Destiny campaigns that were essentially distinct "iwads," which would only play one of the other because they both replaced the same set of levels. Doom followed Wolf's pattern almost exactly, the original shareware/registered version with 3 episodes, the retail only "episode" with a single map set you play from start to finish, and two additional total campaign map replacement iwads created by a third party developer (this time Team TNT) which had to be launched independently of each other, despite being sold as a single game. The point is, while it's still a valid criticism to say that Doom II is "just more Doom," it isn't fair to hold that against the game as if it's trying to pretend it's not. No one is under any false pretenses here, all Doom II was ever meant or supposed to be was "just more Doom," it's just Spear of Destiny again, it's a stand-alone expansion pack, that is legitimately what the game is, that's not me trying to knock it that is the intention of the game, to literally be "just more Doom." So I don't mind that, hell Spear of Destiny didn't have ANY new weapons, and Doom II gave us not only the best weapon of any fps game ever but also a bunch of new monsters that completely redefined the parameters of combat, it was a far more substantial development than it had any right to be for something that is so minimally different from its predecessor, and you have to respect it for that. No, what I find to be much more satisfying about the original 3 episodes is that they're just plain better designed. Having a clarity of purpose and intent is really important, I don't like the "just more x" formula, I NEED my "more" to give me something substantial to justify its existence. I hate remakes, I hate wheel-spinning, my favorite two Godzilla movies are the one about genetic engineering and roses and the anime where he fights an outer god. I NEED variety and substance, you don't have to give me well written sci-fi prose, but I need SOMETHING, I need to know where I am, what my goals are, I need to be able to look around the level I'm in and go "that's cool" and have the challenges in a level be paced in a way I can comprehend that enhance my engagement with the rest of the design. Doom 1 gives me: 1. A techbase episode with easily the most tightly designed map flows in the entire franchise, a standard that John Romero himself still can't top as his Sigil levels are just fuck you impossible troll levels that don't want to be fun. 2. A subversion of the expectations of those standard techbase designs with increasingly bizarre rooms that feel like they don't belong, and at the end of it you get to the base of a tower and fight the first real boss and the most intimidating monster in the game. 3. Petersen ramps up the abstract and bizarre environments to 11 as he's able to leave all pretense of sanity behind as we finally go straight into hell and face labyrinths of flesh, blood, lava, stone, wood, and sometimes even techbase stuff, just to fuck with you. This culminates in a boss fight that's not as scary but of a monster with an unforgettable, classic 90's monster design. Now let's look at the original 32 map campaign of Doom II: You start with more techbase levels, again, but you can't choose to skip them, there's no narrative framing, even in the manual, except "hell has invaded Earth" but nothing you see for like 12 levels looks anything like you'd expect to actually see on Earth. The levels are still great fun, but now there's these weird, stupid gimmick maps like Tricks and Traps, and Romero isn't responsible for many of these levels, and it doesn't really seem like there's a strong thematic connection between them. You're told you're in an infected starport but then you're in a clearly demon-created arena that's definitely a boss fight... but just with regular enemies, new ones, but nothing that's interesting or memorable. Fat demons with flamethrowers and Spiderdemons but smaller. Finally you get to the city levels and stuff really opens up and it starts getting really interesting... but they barely really look like cities from the 1890's, let alone the far future. You get to map 20 and come up against both of the previous bosses from the previous game... but it's another stupid gimmick level, you're meant to make them infight to survive, it's not a challenge for the player, just a spectacle. After that you enter the "hell" levels... and it's just... a tech base. And another techbase... you get to the chasm and... there's a techbase... and then monster condo looks as much like a human condo as any of the city levels did. I thought we were in hell? But you wouldn't know it until you get to the Spirit World and the Living End, which are both fantastic hell maps, but you've had to walk on thin ledges over hurt floors and go through "hell" techbases for 7 maps just to get there. You finally get to the last map and get a climactic new boss encounter... and it's a fucking wall texture. "Just more Doom" is not a crime, it's not a fault, I like Doom a lot, I like Doom II a lot, I'll gladly play just more of it. What it is is a symptom of the actual issues with Doom II's design, which is that the primary goals of the design were 1. gimmicks and 2. combat above all else. Of course having combat be a priority in an fps game is a very smart move, and Doom II benefits from it, and it's why all my complaints about it don't amount to too much, but when you put gimmicks and combat over level design, encounter flow, pacing, set dressing - the kind of special touches that turn games that were just good into something truly great - all of those things suffer in Doom II. It's not that it IS just more Doom, it's that it FEELS like just more Doom. I honestly get the impression playing through some of the levels that the mappers just didn't want to be there and were just trying to get through their shift. It feels a lot like the Nocturnal Missions or Spear of Destiny in that way, and... y'know, that is exactly what Doom II is, after all, something for id to do while Invincible Ubermensch John Carmack worked on the Quake engine.
In many ways, Final Doom, despite it too being literally "just more Doom", feels more like the game Doom 2 should have been. Plutonia in particular feels like it's throwing new curve balls at the player left and right with it's level design.
After many years playing Doom 1 & 2 I am now in that "Let's try some mods" phase of my Doom experience and projects like Brutal Doom includes new weapons and enemies several inspired by the DoomBible design document. Also, you can try Doom Delta which uses assets that were removed from the game. Or maybe try the original games with the subtle addition of BeautifulDoom which will keep the original and just add some effects characters and weapons lore firendly. So, that's another option if you want to explore a little bit.
I'm probably one of the few classic Doom fans who hate Brutal Doom and most Doom mods. I don't like anything that changes the gameplay too much of the original.
Doom 2 was more like a Doom 1 expansion than a new game, though I nearly shit myself when first meeting the Arch-vile and Revenants in Doom 2! That was scary shit back in 94. When most people refer to original Doom they probably mean both.
Yeah that's a fair call... I'm convinced if you showed the average person footage of Doom 2 without telling them, they would assume it's just Doom 1. Which is one of the reasons I included the watermark in my footage.
I imagine there are a lot of people who played the Shareware episode 1, then bought the retail Doom 2, for whom even the Episode 2 and 3 enemies were brand new. Cacodemons don't appear in Episode 1. Neither do Lost Souls, Cyberdemons or Spider-Masterminds, not to mention the plasma based weapons. I remember some criticism at the time about only one new weapon and a few new enemy types, but if you jumped from the Shareware Doom straight to Doom 2, there would have been a LOT more stuff you hadn't seen.
For me it's Doom 1. Also because the environments were not necessarily suppose to represent anything we've seen on earth, so the abstract look of things were more acceptable. Doom 2 being on earth, but using the same textures pretty much? Yea, it just didn't work as well. I so missed the overworld map, and the machine gun and archville enemies were just annoying to deal with. That ending, while funny just seemed like a cop-out. Ending of Quake and Rage weren't great either so I guess iD struggled with that. Doom 1 ending though, was perfect
For me Doom 1 feels like a game that tries to pull the player into its world. Doom 2's levels feel like video game levels and there is 0 immersion. I wonder if this inspired Doom Eternal's design of it proudly feeling like a game compared to Doom 2016's more serious approach to gameplay design.
Great video! I agreed with a lot of what you said, like how Doom 2's level design falls apart here and there and the lack of new weapons being boring too. However, you didn't touch up on the fact that Doom 2 uses those weapons far better than Doom 1 did, which mostly just threw a few random enemies here and there. Doom 2's levels feel a lot more meaningfully crafted, with certain sections where you go "Ah, lots of Pinkies, time for the Super Shotgun" or "Lots of Barons, let's take out the rocket launcher". Also, it added a lot more enemies, which really helped make the game feel much larger. It got kinda boring in Doom 1 having to fight the same Zombies, Imps and Pinkies over and over. Personally, it comes down to preference in my opinion. I'd also rather replay Doom 1 than 2, though there are many maps in 2 that are outright better than anything from the previous game. Doom 1 was just pretty good throughout, while 2 was a bit of a mixed bag, with some maps being REALLY good, and some REALLY bad. Some feedback for the video itself: trim the fat next time. It took you over 4 minutes to even get to the comparison of the games, and you only spent like 3 minutes on Doom 1. I kind of chuckled when you said "Doom needs to introduction", and then... proceeded to introduce Doom :P I think a brief summary of when the games came out and who made them would have been fine. Also, you said Doom 2's maps are a lot larger and feature more running back and forth, but at no point in the video did actually RUN! You were walking the entire time, which of course makes it more tedious to get from point A to B. Granted, not everyone at the time knew to do that and it is valid criticism, but I feel like Doom 2 was built for veterans of the first game that knew it inside-out. Also, props to you for actually using "objectively" correctly here. It does in fact objectively take longer to play because levels are larger! Wish other people wouldn't use the term to refer to their subjective opinions. Still, good video, looking forward to more!
You're definitely right about the second installment being a bit hit and miss with levels, the larger levels feel like more of a tech demo at times and not an actual level which flows with any meaningful purpose. In an interesting twist, I was actually finishing the script for this when I saw your Doom 3 German video & that's what gave me the inspiration to say that Doom 1 reminded me more of Doom 3! I really appreciate the feedback on the video, I'll definitely reflect on the comments & try and improve for the future, thanks so much for taking the time to let me know as it means a lot to me! Cheers again for watching!
Anything past Map10 is barely crafted, less so meaningfully. The Spirit World isn't the worst official level, only because they made TNT a commercial product lol
My big complaint about the enhanced Doom and Doom II PC ports is the controls. The early Doom games and Wolf 3D I prefer the keyboard controls but in the enhanced ports I have to remap the controls. I think they should have offered the original controls as a default setting.
It’s funny I always preferred older style controls in most games and then one day I just woke up and started using the modern control types. I agree an “original” mode would have been a nice touch.
Doom 1 is a timeless classic. It flows a lot better than Doom 2 which in turn is much more experimental with its levels. I would like to try Doom 1 with the addition of the Super Shotgun and the new enemies from Doom 2 to see how it would feel. I would assume some modifications would have to be made to the levels to meaningfully incorporate enemies such as Archvile and Manchubus.
I need to go back and explore the new Nightdive versions... apparently the native mod support is quite good, so perhaps that Super Shotgun dream can come true!
Doom 1 for the win any day. Doom 2 is a good example of bigger isn't always better, but it made sense for a sequel. I think Quake is the true sequel to Doom imo.
It always rubs me the wrong way when I hear the 'maze like' statement about old shooters. Maybe some of us are just wired differently, maybe it's a generational difference in expectations, or maybe there's just something in the water lately, but I've never experienced getting lost in these games, even on first runs.
It depends.. Wolfenstein-esque games have copy-pasted corridors and everything looks the same. In Doom-like games the environments are much more memorable and easier to navigate, and that doesn't even include the fact that they had an automap feature. In the first Doom game the only annoying mazes were ones that abused teleporters. Like the infamously awful E3M7: Limbo
You need to look at the roles of both games from a todays perspective. Most people know Doom II because of its mod compatibility. Most of the mods build upon the second iteration, because it has more monsters and better textures. Something you didn't mention is the additional monsters, like Arch Viles and Hell Knights. Also with a source port like GZDoom you can jump, crouch and look up and down. There are hughe map collections like the RAMP series and total conversion mods which don't feel like Doom anymore.
It was tough to decide on which one to present, the main reason I choose the Bethesda version was due to the native widescreen. I appreciate this decision isn’t going to be to everyone’s taste but I appreciate you checking it out nevertheless.
@@Eric_Nomad_Hixtone Its just boomers being out of touch and thinking that playing a game when it was new makes them an esteemed specialist on the topic. Somehow its infinitely more common with PC games than console games of that era.
My family wasn't very well off when I was a kid, so I didn't get to play the full doom until I was old enough to get a job, but I played the hell out of the shareware version. I get nostalgic for it, and prefer episode 1 to all the rest of doom and doom 2
Lack of the jumping isn't that important as you may it sound. Like, other games of era have a lot of jumping but, outside of secrets, it was rarely used and even then there was a lot of moments where the thing you want to get is too high up even with a jump. For me, Doom 2 is better cause it improves on the flaws of the original. Small enemy roster? Nearly doubled - it. Not enough fast paced combat? 200 monsters on the map. You liked horror of OG? Gladly for you there's more ambushes. Level design in particular is significantly more better, to the point of Doom 2 maps being one of the staples of Doom mapping to this day. Yeah, they had flaws, but they introduced so many ideas, that the mapping rise from being a gimmick to some ground - breaking works like 1995 Final Doom 1996 Requiem and Eternal Doom, also Perdition Gate, which even was selling in physical copies. Also, SSG is such a crucial to Doom's balance and combat
You’re absolutely right about the jumping not being of much “use” I guess it’s just the times it stood out for me seemed more frustrating than I liked. I do remember some of those new enemies from Doom 2 terrifying me as a child… Also just checking SSG is super shot gun right?
"Small enemy roster? Nearly doubled" Wish they used the new monsters more. Some of them are very rare. "You liked horror of OG? Gladly for you there's more ambushes." LOL as if anyone finds that scary
@@panthekirb7561 oh, yeah, of course, because map 09 uses no new enemies I assume? Same with map 10? Or map 11? 6 Mancs in the central building in map 12? Oh, I guess that's just a nothing's number Also, do you really found Doom 1 geniunely scary? Like, not just in your childhood? I bet not
I enjoyed more Doom 1 because it kept some more "videogame features" than Doom 2 with episodes being completed by boss fights. Cyberdemon and Spidermastermind were proper bosses because you encountered them once, and killing them ended the episode. In Doom 2, the lack of seperated episodes makes more complicated to remember the segments and therefore the story of the game. There are some text poping between some series of levels that tell the story, but no one remembers when, and sometimes forget they exist. Also, Doom 2 felt like an add-on (DLC today) more than a new game because the lack of weapons and the very similar visuals and gameplay of the original. Even back then, game expansions already existed and they add some content (weapons, enemies), and your base game remain the same. Sequels always looked different and most of the time provided enhancements. Doom 1 and 2 were too similar. In contrast, Hexen was a proper sequel to Heretic because both games looked and played very different even if they were both using the same engine.
I agree with virtually all of your comments! I just wonder what Doom 2 could have been if it had a little more development time... there were some good ideas in it for sure, but like you say, they didn't really have the chance to be fully realised. I actually never played much of Hexen, but it is something I definitely want to go back to!
Well Doom 2 was an expansion pack to Doom 1 really. The Doom2.exe file detects which .wad file is in the same directory and just runs that verison of doom. You could drag the ultimate doom .wad file into your doom 2 directory, delete doom2.wad, and that doom 2 will now play doom 1. It works vice versa. Your doom 1.exe file can also play plutonia, evilution, etc... That is if you have the latest version of doom where all the patches were built for this.
I suspect the lack of jumping was an accessibility concern. Doom pushed the envelope in a number of significant ways, and id were always worried about overwhelming players with too many new concepts. Doom 2 does actually have a form of jumping with the archvile attack which launches you into the air, but they opted not to make it a core movement feature. During Quake development for example, they agonised over how looking up and down should work. They did experiment with the modern mouse look controls, but worried that making it standard would push the learning curve too high for the new technology, so they made it something you have to configure yourself in the options for more advanced players. The lack of jumping ability probably would have been less frustrating to players back then, simply because the idea of jumping in first person in a 3D environment was so exotic to begin with.
I never thought about it from that perspective... and you are right, we didn't expect to be able to jump in FPS's in the early 90's. It's funny you mention the looking up and down in Quake because I don't ever remember doing that when I played through the game originally, something I probably missed back in the day!
@azordash_games Yeah, mouselook was bound to a key that you had to hold, so you had to bind it to something like mouse2 and hold it to look around. By default, Quake used key bindings to gently pitch the view up and down, and a "lookspring" function to re-centre it when you switched from a sloped surface to a flat one. Even as someone who played the original game with a keyboard at release, I can't imagine how people thought that was more intuitive than free mouselook 😆
Some games already have jumping at the end of 1994 and in 1995. Doom 2 didn't need to forcefully include a jumping option but I don't think the reason was that they thought people were too unintelligent to grasp the concept of jumping back then.
@panthekirb7561 It's not about intelligence, it's about making the game accessible enough to new players. FPS as a genre didn't even exist back then, they just called it "3D shooters", and many players of Doom would have been completely new to the concept of 3D games, some not even having played Wolfenstein 3D. Romero details in his autobiography that mouse look in Quake was considered a step too far for the majority of the player base which is why its disabled by default, so it's not outlandish to suggest that putting in jumping puzzles in Doom would have been considered way too out there and it was easier to not add it at all as people could traverse using lifts instead.
However if you use jump on the original levels, you're essentially cheating lol. It breaks the game. It's fine for wads designed with jumping in mind though.
Hi, Great Video. But I noticed that you commented a bit on the lack of jumping and aiming up and down, this is due to Doom techincally only being on one level and there is no up and down, but using tricks to make it appear to be on multiple. What you are seeing is your gun shoot above you to a demon on a ledge, but the reality is that the projectile simply goes directly forward.
Complete misinformation. Entities in Doom use 3 dimensions for their position. Projectiles can travel up and down and also fly over and under other entities. Check out borogk's Doom 3D video where he gracefully debunks all these myths.
All Doom games are cheap AF on Steam at the moment. Something like 85% off? You're a really good reviewer too mate. Genuinely surprised that your channel isn't bigger. Subbed for support.
You’re very kind! Thank you for the words of encouragement it means a lot. Just checked out the sale and you are spot on looks like pretty much every title is heavily discounted! A great time to pick up some titles to pad out that backlog 🥲
Fortunately for the DOOM community is the prevalence of MODDERS who arguably took something good and made it great. Butal Doom being my personal favorite and address all the issues you described and brings it on part with modern FPS titles... Albeit 1990s graphics.
Doom 2 level design is simply AWFUL for a first person shooter. (with a few exceptions like underhalls) and I don't understand the people who defend it.
not really sure what you’re talking about unless you’re referring to the city levels which only account for about 5 / 32 levels. i’d say at least half of episodes 2 & 3 in the original are pretty forgettable.
@@camaxideAgreed. I played Doom 2 first so I actually have more nostalgia for it than Doom. Having played with the super shotgun and new enemies first made going back to Doom underwhelming.
Doom has better level design and theming while Doom 2 has much more demons and the super shotgun. The pros and cons between the two games even each other out, at least in my opinion.
Underhalls is your go to example for a good Doom 2 level? Darn you must really dislike the game. But yes I agree that Doom 2 has some truly awful levels. Downtown and The Chasm are a total waste of time while roughly 1/3 of the levels are too small to justify their existence.
Cheers for the kind words! Interesting perspective on enjoying Wolf3D more than Doom… My only issue with Wolf is that unlike Doom (or Quake) it hasn’t aged well in in my opinion 🥲
@@azordash_games Yes, i actually agree it age not too well at all. But idk, i think i like the setting in WWII more, also i feel the hitscan weapons in Wolf feel more punchy. Granted, my favorite is Quake ;)
I've only played the shareware version of Wolf 3D, but whilst I enjoyed it, I found it very bland in terms of level design. Levels are very flat, and it's very different to Doom's gameplay. Had I played it before Doom, I would probably feel differently. Original Quake was a technical marvel, the gameplay was challenging and very different to anything that came before. But the gothic atmosphere and overall dull environments weren't appealing. Out of the 4 Quake games, Quake 2 was my favourite, but for me, Return to Castle Wolfenstein is better than all of their other games. 🙂
100% disagree with which was better. I started with Doom 2 1st, and Doom just feels like an incomplete Doom 2 beta. While I agree it's more horror focused, it's also boring and easy (not counting episode 4). and you say most people don't talk about Doom2 as much? I think you don't realize that most people call Doom and Doom2 both, simply as "Doom" Main reason I say that, is compare how many mods are made for Doom 1 as opposed to Doom 2. (and Doom 2 mods are commonly called "Doom mods" like Brutal Doom for example.) Why more mods? basically because they're the same game, but Doom 2 has more verity and options with the SSG and almost double the enemy types.
Interesting perspective & I totally get where you are coming from! In my circles I found a lot of people had never really played Doom 2, nor knew much about it, but it's all relative I guess... maybe Australia just missed on some of the Doom hype!
