Double Modulation (Bach Chorale Music Analysis) - Inside the Mind of Bach 

Thanks for this, really helpful.

A pleasure

J.S Bach is an overrated composer. In the end, it's more musical mathematics than music that comes from the heart. Poor melodies and boring rhythms. I don't like Bach for these reasons, he doesn't deserve his reputation and he is played too much. Also other composers of his time are obscured because of him. Sad many have his quality if not better!!

@@joelaffolter2392 That’s certainly not the view of most who find his music beautifully crafted and emotionally deeply moving but of course all are entitled to personal taste.

@@joelaffolter2392 greetings joel, and applause for a human being who doesn't have any inhibitions about sharing his true feelings with his fellows As a dedicated composer of some 60 years standing, who loves samba very deeply, and who realizes soul stirring art when it occurs, but who is also well trained enough and analytically Keen enough to know when poor old Johann is just playing another boring game of musical chess, lining up his ducks in a row, or perhaps, fugly speaking, in multiple rows I know that, unlike the belief of too many, he is not the saints and savior of the religion of music as some may choose to believe, but merely and another deciduous Workman who, like many of his brethren, occasionally scale the heights with music of power and delight, but who could also be as predictable as stale bread and cold beans. People are overly impressed by complexity, inbox could be gratuitously complex at times, merely and chilly for the sake of impressing either himself or his listeners. But complexity is no guarantee of depth or beauty, and so it is often a case of The Emperor's musical clothes when one dares to penetrate through box bewildering tapestries. And you're quite right, he does needlessly eclipse many other equally gifted composers because of the excessive reverence he is accorded. The Polish composer is zelenka had an equally powerful gift for counterpoint and complexity, with perhaps a higher factor of refreshment then the art of bar. But in my mind or heart but never managed to arrive at the sheer, pristine and exquisite beauty of Maurice ravel, for example who's complexity was well concealed and a seamless fabric of sheer ecstasy. So then, my compliments to you, after a lifetime of music, conservatories, postgraduate school, teaching and composing, for having the courage to reveal the obvious about the sometimes wonderful, sometimes very far from wonderful jsb. If you are not a musician, then you are at least a very perceptive listener. Namaste!

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@lawrencetaylor4101 😀

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It is fabulous how it all slots together.

Me too!

Absolutely, musical perfection

It sure is

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Excellent. Enjoy London and good luck with all your choral activity

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Absolutely

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A pleasure

😀Glad it’s helpful

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It certainly is

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A pleasure

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Absolutely

Absolutely

'Semitone up' is mostly the way that popular music adds variety.

Certainly that’s one way

@@phwboothOk, my song is getting boring…uhhh…UP A HALF STEP WE GO!! (That said, if it sounds fun, go for it. And so will I.)

It’s fabulous

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Glad you’re enjoying it

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Indeed!

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It’s fabulous

😀

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I’m so very sorry to hear about your daughter. Bless you.

@@MusicMattersGB Thank you sir.

Take care

I am very sorry to hear about your daughter. May her soul rest in perfect peace. Amen. God bless you too!

@@shodapad07 Absolutely

That’s most kind

😀

Always!

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Glad you enjoyed it.

😀

😀

Good idea

That's portamento. You are thinking of pimento.......

@@1MrZackdaddy A Partimento is a sketch, written out on a single staff, whose main purpose is to be a guide for the improvisation of a composition at the keyboard. A Partimento differs from a basso continuo accompaniment in that it is a basis for a complete composition.

@@MusicMattersGB I appreciate the direct copy and paste of the definition from Wikipedia. However, I admit I misread the 'a' for an 'o'. The ole eyes aren't what they used to be, probably from years of close score reading.

Gracias. Es posible tener los subtítulos en español ya que puedes ajustar el idioma.

I think Bach was able to process harmony and counterpoint simultaneously.

@@MusicMattersGB yah, maybe because he wasn’t being constantly poisoned by pieces of garbage that have total power like Monsanto.....

@@MusicMattersGB don’t forget Colgate and Crest! And the basic water supply... Pepsi and their cloned fetus material for the flavor experiments....

Bach wouldn’t have used the Roman numeral system but he was a very fluent chord writer.

The chords are the result of contrapuntal writing, don't you think? Even if your analysis is perfectly correct and very interesting, I am not convinced yet he was thinking like that, he was probably more thinking like Fux, chords being like "pre-built" contrapuntal structures.

Writing counterpoint is a delicate combination of linear and vertical thinking. Many students of counterpoint write linear lines without paying sufficient attention to the harmonic structure. The masters teach us how to think in both dimensions simultaneously.

indeed, and the opposite: many students learning rules of harmony do not pay attention to the "llines" and write chords that fiit the rules.

True

😀

It’s certainly possible to see it as a chord that could belong to b minor. It’s really all about context because a modulation is coming - hence the suggestion of A major on the way to F# minor.

😀

Voice leading in Bach is amazing.

That’s what we thought!

It’s in the Chorale collection

It’s certainly a less than clear moment but that’s one way of looking at it

@@MusicMattersGB As a one time teacher of Bach harmony and counterpoint, I'm thoroughly enjoying watching someone else doing it!

Excellent!

It’s either e minor followed by a lower auxiliary or it’s G major with an accented passing note. You could make a case both ways but it’s not a suspension

A suspension requires a 'dissonant' note on the actual suspension itself, such as a 4th, 7th, or even a 2nd or 9th. The last two are rare. But a 6th and a 5th are consonant intervals, even the minor 6th.

@@1MrZackdaddy Absolutely. 4-3, 7-6 and 9-8 are the most commonly used suspensions.

It’s possible but I don’t think that was the intention here.

Bach uses the melodic minor like a jazz musician. The g sharp being the 3rd and fifth of the subsequent secondary dominants E7/Cmin which resolve to F min, then alluding to C sharp dom7 via the e sharpe in the alto part to solidify the cadence in F sharp minor. Think of it as a II - V in A major, except that it's the relative minor that is resolved. He does this all the time with the sixth degree of a melodic minor scale. A type of harmonic pivot device to modulate up a fifth.

So much of Bach’s style sits alongside jazz.

Some theorists certainly state that; others take a broader view. One of the points of the video is to demonstrate the variety of nuance within the area of modulation. Also, for example a modulation that merely expresses as V I in another key might be regarded no more than a secondary dominant but if it forms a cadence many theorists state that it therefore must be regarded as a modulation.

@@MusicMattersGB I think that depends on what happens after the cadence. If the next phrase continues in the new implied key, then - yes - it is probably a modulation. Otherwise it is a tonicization. Yes, a secondary dominant and its respective resolution is merely a tonicization of a scale step in he unfolding of the overall harmony. I, too, enjoy doing a harmonic analysis of any music that may lend itself to it. Harmonic analysis is a lot of fun. However, when one takes even a small step back, we see that this is just a prolongation of the overall tonic harmony of the phrase. These 'modulations' or 'tonicizations' are middle ground events that occur during the unfolding of the probably more important background tonic harmony. Ultimately, these designations are a matter of opinion. I don't think Bach cared what we think, hahaha......

😀

The deciding issue is to determine which are harmony notes and which are the inessential notes.

😀

Great insight, although his WTC were clearly not for worshipping god.....I never new you wasn't supposed to "show off Bach" so to speak

Many secular works by Bach were not intended for Christian worship. The sacred works are profoundly a part of Lutheran worship.

@@MusicMattersGB not sure what pieces you’re referring to but Bach lived and worked for the Lutheran Church. Everything he wrote was for the church or students of the church. The whole point of written notation and counterpoint is for worship, it was designed by monks under pope Gregory. Bach is the epitome of counterpoint. Fugues, partitas, and inventions were performed before service and while passing the plate, sacraments, or changing choir positions. He also taught music… for the church. The Well tempered clavier is one of his teaching examples as well as his inventions. Not trying to argue and I am not religious but Bach’s music is definitely holy on every level. He wasn’t performing in a pub. I am curious about what secular pieces he wrote. PS… just to recap, I’m not trying to be a jerk, I enjoy the discussion and I would respectfully like to learn something. Thanks.

Absolutely

VII and V are interchangeable in many situations. The root of VII sounds like the 7th of V7 and that’s the thing that strengthens it but yes, Vc can sometimes feel cleaner. It’s all about context.

Absolutely. Feel free to refer people to the videos you’ve found helpful on the subject. That’s great.

He’s certainly a genius

@@MusicMattersGB I know.. I love his work! 😃

😀

It’s a brilliant move

Measure 3 first chord. It’s often regarded as the pivot chord between the two keys so it’s both iv in f# minor and i in b minor ie the point of modulation. There is a slightly modal flavour here but Bach often uses the descending melodic minor scale in an ascending context. On the second half of the beat the bass moves to a different harmony note and the tenor has a passing note so there’s no essential change of harmony. The G major chord is a VI in b minor which helps to confirm the b minor tonality.

The diminished 7th leap in the bass is not untypical in Bach.

The B in the soprano is a lower auxiliary note. As you say the top line is inherited.

Maybe. Maybe not. The point is to help us understand what he was doing.

😀

Yet there are close parallels to be made.

That’s very possible

I’m analysing in this way in order to recognise the suspension.

@@MusicMattersGB I understand, thank's for your response !

@@PianoStudioNancy 😀

Not in this case…

😀

Nevertheless, the harmonic progressions are expertly designed and are certainly not there by chance. Of course Bach’s skill is in his simultaneous consideration of linear and vertical movement. It’s nevertheless in the Chorales that we learn the most about his harmonic thinking & that’s the rationale behind the chord analysis here.

😀

I think you have to see the overall key as B minor. There are certainly A major references but the A# doesn’t point to A major

We can do this in due course

Hi!

😀

Jacob Collier is a beast.

😀

In the same way that when we drive a car we go through the driving process subconsciously whereas when we are learning to drive we have to think through very consciously what has to be done and in which order. With repetition the process becomes automatic but the process is still operating. That’s Bach’s position musically

What "tnings" and why di you think so?

😀

Obviously not, he was thinking in German.

It’s certainly a Bach original

@@MusicMattersGB I don't think so. There are many odd moments in this piece, let me pick just one: the bass's two a-sharps in bar three. That is way too clumsy, certainly not Bach.

I can confirm that this is definitely Bach

@@MusicMattersGB But how could you do that?

It’s in his autograph hand in the collection that he wrote

Others have made similar observations. I agree that, while we want musicians to be creative performers and composers, we also need them to understand the language they are speaking.

I completely agree but we know that Bach went to great lengths to learn his craft methodically until it flowed so naturally that the technique was embedded so the music could flow from his soul.

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