Sometimes I dislike how people insinuate that you must like GT or Super. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I for one really like that we have so much Dragon Ball to enjoy, no matter the continuity 👍🏻
I love GT due to nostalgia (granted, I got the Blue Water dub in my country which is a much better English dubbing imo, especially the intro) and Super for reviving my nostalgia. Both are good. Both are even sometimes great.
I couldn’t said it better myself I like super better than gt but I don’t think gt is the worst thing ever I never thought gt wasn’t really that bad I like both series that changed a little over time because people would just not recognize bad plot holes and plot in gt they just say gt is better just cause without giving a explanation i agree super is far from perfect is it peak it’s getting there, there’s so many things in super I can’t stand. Gokus character in super and gt is just fine it’s just because people just prefer gt just because he’s a better version of z goku which and the same can be said with super goku there only argument is he never knew what a kiss was and that’s stupid considering he never ever mention a kiss besides filler or just the dub. People would just use that as a argument to bash him and don’t watch the series. I also think dbs vegeta is a better character and has far better progression than gt vegeta anyway I’m ramping on to much I completely agree with your comment and everyone should just enjoy,
(Personally) I like almost everything DB related Dragonball, Z, GT, Super, Super heroes YT videos, even some fanmade projects like multiverse and DBZ: Abridged. the only DB thing I disliked was the Live action. But its seems that the overall community of DB is a choose your side. full of slander and hate for each other.... I love this franchise, but unfortunately I cannot say the same for the community.
there's a couple in this video's comments that need to understand that too, most here are chill which I really wanna stress, but the "this person BAD and my guy GOOD" stuff is tiresome in any amount It's possible to criticize someone without everything being a GOTCHA moment
I like that you take things like these with a wider perspective, understanding his parts, yet giving your own without being disrespectful. I personally disagree with a lot of stuff with Mark, but I see people being way more extra about it... 💀
Keep up the Grand Work Scholar! Despite its flaws (like everything else in life), GT, for me, is a satisfying conclusion to the DB anime's original broadcast era, and it has soul and passion. It's the grand, final part of the original DB anime trilogy.
@@SaiyanScholar A lot of that is thanks to you I think. I used to hate GT too but you got me thinking about it a lot of times and I'm really grateful for that. Maybe otherwise I never would have given it a second chance like all things should get.
Very much so. I wish either would go ahead and do that massive review of Z (in long form) because I can appreciate both points of view. Scholar's demeanor & sense of sarcasm is my personal favorite out of all the channels that talk about DragonBall (every facet of the series) but I do respect all of these people and their opinions.
I was expecting a more petty rebuttal, but I was very engaged with the discourse and found myself agreeing with your observations on Mark's conclusion. There's a fundamental reason why series needs "filler", as Mark calls it - these down beats provide respite to build up for the climaxes. There can be no payoff if you don't allow time to invest in characters doing normal things and interacting. You can't just skip to the next dragon ball or the next fight scene and have the same emotional impact.
Honestly, Vegeta using the machine to transform isn’t cheating. Especially with Majin Vegeta being a thing. Vegeta using the machine to reach Super Saiyan 4 is him growing and maturing. One he had to get Bulma to love him and stay with him. That is a grind in on its own. Two, he put his pride aside and asked her for help. He actually asked for help. Vegeta, put himself aside to save the Earth, a place he loved with people on it that he loved. He was so angry that he would have to lose another home world, that is showing how much he cares. So him accepting help to transform to his most powerful form to actually fuse instead of taking Omega on himself, shows he had stopped wanting to be number 1 and started being a responsible man that cared for others. Cheating no. Accepting that others come before your pride, that was Vegeta’s biggest challenge ever. And people love those moments when he has shown that in the past, when he went after Cell because of Trunks. Even him reach Blue Evolution. SSJ4 Vegeta is a full power Vegeta with a full mind and spirit.
This was beautifully put. Specially because his lack of desire to be "number 1" immediately connects with the end of Buu saga, which is when Vegeta acknowledged Goku as "number 1" in the best example of character growth he had, which in turn got to evolve even further in GT.
@@aikou2886 for those who must know, the Xenoverse 2 GT Vegeta is not the GT Vegeta we know. It is mainly game developers not understanding the character and just trying to make money. As Xenoverse 2, at least the English dub GT Vegeta is going on about being number 1 again. The little pride he has because he is going to save Goku for once is nice, but his weird competitiveness out of no where is just poor judgment on a game developers perspective. I watched the sub of Vegeta fighting Omega, just to make sure he was the same. He was actually happy to accept the help of the others, so they could protect the Earth. He would of been like no I got this on my own wait your turn if he didn’t grow and mature. He even asks Goku for power. Now that is a Vegeta I believe can be one of the strongest protectors of Earth.
Honestly his comment about the shadow dragons having no deeper motivation for being evil is funny to me because that's how basically every Dragon Ball villain is. Just about every Dragon Ball villain in super Z the original and GT are just evil for the sake of evil. Is rather hypocritical to hate on GT's villains for this one almost every villain in the franchises this way.
I noticed that most who hate on GT never actually watched the og, as most DBZ fans. They only like to pretend og is the shit bcs of its reputation. While GT doesnt compare to the og, the first saga resembles the og a lot, an adventure style arc, while later arcs would resemble Z more, which most fans prefer coincidentally. Basically GT haters just want an another Z, but as someone who had watched DB and loves it, i love the black star saga, it felt like it went back to its original roots
@@sayanorasonic I honestly have a similar feeling I really love the Black Star Dragon Ball Ark we get to see all these new weird planets that we never got to explore before. I've seen people argue that these planets are pointless because they don't really come back but the different locations in the original Dragon Ball never came back either that doesn't make them pointless at all like when was the last time we saw Android 8 or those two Indian guys at the foot of corns Tower? Just cuz we don't see them anymore doesn't mean that they were pointless Editions
@@sayanorasonic Eh...a lot who do dislikeit still watched the og though and Mark obviously watched the og. No they don't pretend, they see that it's actually pretty good. Yet the execution of the first saga was still pretty bad. How is it a coincidence? The only GT arc that could be argued that most consider good is the baby saga but other then that even the later arcs are still disliked overall. So you are assuming stuff about GT haters? No they want something that makes sense and is welll written too. You can love the back star saga, that doesn't make it good though, same with liking some sonic games for example.
Piccolo didn't "help Goku relearn how to do Instant Transmission." He gave Goku enough energy to do it after he ran out using SS4. I have no idea how that can't be seen.
I do watch Mark's content occasionally, but yeah, you can tell occasionally he takes the 'obligatory GT jab' here and there. I guess if in the Sonic fan base it would be the mandatory '06 is bad' reference. in the end of the day, I respect and like GT for what it tried to do, it took risks and some things didn't pan out, but if you can see past the flaws the series still has a lot of heart to the DB series as a whole.
I strongly agree That's how it should be done. Everyone can share their opinions without attacking the other ones as if life itself depends on one specific opinion 👉🏻👈🏻
"Bulma making a blitz wave machine in minutes is utterly ridiculous" She made a time machine in the middle of an apocalyse. Dont care if you think Bulma's bullshit inventions are bullshit, if you accept the time machine's existence (and most people do) then you're morally obligated to accept everything else she pulls out her ass
But how would Bulma know what Blutz waves are? Let alone make a machine in mere minutes to stop SSj4 Goku? That’s the issue here. It’s not the fact that she made the machine at all it’s that she did it with no time flat
The placement of Great Ape is important in the Baby Saga for an additional reason: you see, in the Saiyan vs Tuffle war, both sides were equal with neither gaining the advantage, however this changed when the full moon of Plant Plant/Vegeta comes play as it only appears once every several years. This let the Saiyans transform into Great Apes which was ultimately was the deciding factor in this back and forth war. The Great Ape carries this theme of history repeating itself and Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Golden Great Ape Baby is a challenge of who could take that deciding factor from the last conflict and use it better in this new conflict, to which Goku was able to win the challenge with Super Saiyan 4 as he wasn’t tied down by anything and was strengthened by his love for his friends and family, where as Baby was only able to achieve Golden Great Ape and that’s it because of his hatred inhibiting him and tying him down.
I want to add some stuff to the criticism. Behold it is LONG! Reminder, Pilaf next to Bulma is the most experienced in stuff related to Dragon Ball lore. Just like he found out about the existence of Dragon Balls and how to find them, and just like how he found the Rice Cooker of King Piccolo, he would logically find clues or rationalize that there could be a hidden set of Dragon Balls in the Realm of God. You know, the guy who created the Dragon Balls. People being chilled despite the universe being in danger has been explained in the Japanese version with characters acknowledging that they can move to another planet if things go out of hand. But they would rather not abandon their homes which is why they are calm. They have plan B if things don't work out. That is why Vegeta was willing to send off Goten and Trunks instead going himself as he thinks that the situation would be a good moment for them to get off their lazy butts. As far as we can assume, the regular Dragon Ball should not be able to bring back the Black Star Dragon Balls too earth because they exceed Dende's power. If that were that easy, how weak would the Dragon Balls feel like if you can just wish all of them to earth? The Namekian Dragon Balls won't be any help either because Goku can't use Instant Transmission. Even if he could the same logic should apply to them as Polunga couldn't bring Goku to earth because he didn't want to. The first mini arc was important to show the restrictions to Goku's powers and like you said how the team operates as well as their mindset. They can't be finding Dragon Balls in every episode, it would be illogical. Also it introduced Giru one of the MVPs in this arc. I think the show tried to make clear at times that not all issues need to be solved with violents, which is why many times the characters did silly things instead of just punching their way out. Also Goku accidentally blow away a volcano which shows that his new body makes it hard to get a hang with his power. It can be rationalize that Dr Mu found one Black Star Dragon Ball by chance and like Bulma used it to create a device to locate them which we in the story never see. The fact that Muchi Muchi talks about that his god told him about it makes it reasonable that he got the information from Dr Mu in some shape or form. Complaining about telepathy is like complaining that every character after the Tien Saga can fly despite non of them going to Crane School who developted that technique. The thing about Pan is that she went from looking down to Goku (literally) to looking up to him remembering "My grandpa is really the best" to the point she held on to his old gi and gifted it to her grandson who is also called Goku. There would be no benefit or reason for Baby to lay an egg in Vegeta because for one, time needs to pass before someone becomes a Tsufuru and everyone drank the holy water both on earth and on Planet Tsufuru. Kid Goku fights were the best. Before the Z part started, most the fights Goku took advantage on both his size and body to beat an enemy. He even used the environment to his advantage. In Z stuff like that were really rare. All fights depended on emotional stakes and choreography to hype you up. There was hardly any unique fighting style unless you count the movies with Broly. Most the fights felt like tennis matches as someone needed to transform to get an edge over the other character in battle. Meanwhile in GT, that didn't happen often as few characters were able to transform. I don't think the Super 17 arc being short is a good excuse to defend it. I feel the show did a lot of things to make it reasonable. Like Oob just one shotting General Rildo seems more reasonable than us getting a full fight with Gohan focusing how he can handle a threat like that. The characters were all useful and weren't useless eating screentime like in Revival of F where Frieza just chose not to intervene and the plot decided that Goku gets notified to come to earth to fight Frieza. Goku was trapped in hell and characters tried to free him. Vegeta was busy fightin Hell Fighter 17. Krillin and 18 were attacked by 17. Pan dispatched the Red Ribbon Army. Goten and Trunks handled Babidi's henchmen and 19. Compare that to the Z Fighters beat up Frieza Soldiers weaker than Master Roshi. Embarrassing. Piccolo got his ass kicked by someone at Dodoria's level. The show did a good job to explain, in the Japanese version, why 17 is chosen specifically as he has dormant power stronger than Cell. Which Cell? Since everyone in hell know each other, it has to be Perfect Cell. And Dr Gero stated that he could not find a way to make 17 access that power. That is why Dr Mu helped creating a new 17 that is strong enough to put a fight against Vegeta who stated "You have powered up beyond believe" thinking that is the regular 17. As for old 17, after Hell and Earth merged, he stated that he is overflowing with power indicating that his dormant power stronger than that of Cell is awakened just as the GT Perfect Files state (Perfect File II). Now you have these 17 stronger than Perfect Cell 17's merge which is not a simple addition like the dub makes you believe, you are getting Super 17 who exceeds the power of Oob and perhaps even an off screen Gotenks, we probably didn't see because Super 17 was just a gateaway to introduce the Shadow Dragon arc. I don't exactly remember the reason King Yemma could not release Goku from hell but powers far stronger of his were interfearing where the anime cut away to the Dragon Balls (cracking?). Either implying that the opening of hell is the cause or the negative energy of the Dragon Balls. I want to remind everyone that in hell there are machines meaning there are resources to build devices. And just because Hell Fighter 17 looks like 17 doesn't mean he doesn't have unique abilities to himself. He is basically DLC to upgrade the old model. What would be the point in making another exact copy? Super 17 was meant to me obedient to Dr Mu but 18 and Krillin managed to get through him allowing parts of the original 17 to pop out. Goku even stated after they won that the real 17 allowed them to beat him and that 18's words reached him. That suppose to showcase that there was more to Super 17 than being just a puppet of Dr Mu and it was done amazingly. "Throw some ki blasts" The irony when someone say this in a show criticized for spamming ki blasts all the time. Also adding to the Vegeta thing being unearned? God forbid the characters use a device set up several arcs prior and use it to save the world. God forbid Goku drink the holy water so he can awaken his power to fight King Piccolo which was just given to him in the manga. God forbid Krillin and Gohan get free power ups by having their potential unlocked by some old Namekian. What about Gohan waiting several hours until his hidden potential gets unlocked for the 3rd time? What about Vegeta letting his hidden powers awaken so he can Goku to kill him (despite Goku already being death)? Oh wait, those shows aren't GT. Vegeta is too prideful to fuse even if his family and friends are at danger. He would only use cheap tricks when the plot demands according to toriyama like abusing the Zenkai boost so he can turn into a Super Saiyan against final form Frieza who isn't even in his final form. Yeah, Goku managed to hold on the move from Omega while in Base form but it is clear that Goku got the adrenaline boost using every bit of his life force just to safe earth. Compare that to Dragon Ball Super where he broke his arms using a Kamehameha to overpower murged Zamas and permanently scaring him, then following that up with a Kaioken without suffering life threatening damage. Completely different scenes. Living beings get the most powerful when their loved ones are in danger and this scene did a great way showing it. Goku gave up his life in exchance to give earth a few more minutes and enough time for Vegeta requesting the others to escape from earth. It is heavily implied Goku traded off his life to stop Omega's 1 attack before getting the offer to take full responsibility for the Dragon Balls and gather power for the Genkidama. It was an amazing way to end Dragon Ball. Non of the Dragon Ball arcs can come close to this. I want to point out that Goten wanted to buy time a second time for Goku and Vegeta to fuse but Gohan prevented him that it would just make the situation worse now that Omega knows how dangerious fusion is. The reason they are involved in the final fight then is because Vegeta was not a Super Saiyan 4 anymore and on the same power tier. They could not abandon him and came so he won't die alone and to show respect to their fathers. As for complaining for the Shadow Dragons having no motivation and just being evil. They are created by different wishes and the quality of the wish created negative energy to balance the positive energy in them. That explains why the most selfish wish created the noble Sixinglong aka. Nouva Shenron who is a killer but refrains from killing women and children as well as fighting with honor. His brother criticizes him for that even going as far as forcing Nouva to give Goku the finishing blow. Goku, who survived because Nova just melted the ice, would criticize Sanxinglong aka. Eis Shenron for being naive for not doing the job himself. Showing while Eis is irredeemable, he does want his brother to succeed as a proper dragon of their rank as they are related. Even if he would use him as a shield later to defeat Goku. Goku had a good excuse to use SSJ4 since that form brings him to his adult state which he is the most accustoomed to.
as the proclaimed 3rd biggest gt fanboy in the universe, your debunk/analysis somehow made me gain a greater appreciation for gt i didn't even know I could gain. the video is very well thought out and explained and debunks the outright bias mark had in his video, mark went into his video with every intention to hate on gt this is very clearly shown in his review while your video is far more sincere and unbiased, as you said gt isn't for everyone its a flawed series. but gt is a series i will always love and defend no matter what anyone says about it.
It’s the hidden doubt that people put into your head because they constantly tear down the show even though it was good Work, it was trying to do make your appreciate Dragon ball. Compared to, super Dad doesn’t want to be mature, it just wants to appeal to fighting nerds that prefer flashy action over meaningful dialogue or fights because who gives shit about you’re fighting. If it’s Your grandma that had it coming the one time she hit you with her walker.
I loved that he let the machine change him. It's something Toriyama often forgets to acknowledge. None of these warriors grew in power by themselves. Who fed them? Who housed them? Who supported them? They've always had help from Bulma, Chichi, Roshi, etc. They lived in their homes, were raised by them even. The idea that planet Earth could directly influence the growth of the Saiyans has always been core to Dragon Ball, and having Vegeta accept that in his heart in his evolution is an awesome story beat.
Thank you for making this. I like Mark, I’ve given him support for years. He doesn’t understand Bleach either though. He rushed those videos out to hop on that 2022 Bleach Return Bandwagon and completely misread a lot of the characters. Saying they were unnecessarily involved in certain battles. Bleach is bigger than just the main character. I feel like he had the same mindset with his GT video.
that is what you get when you try to cash in on the popularity. Something like a blind review doesn't exist. What he does is either Vlogging or Blogging. Reviews don't regurgitate or summarize what you have seen. He isn't the only one doing that mistake.
I didnt like his video on rewriting the Buu saga either. It completely ignores the importance of the events for the characters and why the Saiyaman arc was not pointless nor Gohan not being ment to just solo the arc because of SS2 Teen Gohan. It was just a ridiculous video to me for similar reasons. Rushed and Ignorant.
49:33 This is one of the reasons I have a hard time watching Mark. I don't hate him, but it feels like he regularly says things that make it seem he wants things both ways without understanding it just doesn't make sense, and it doesn't help he says this back-to-back.
It took years cause she was building it in the apocalypse with androids blowing everything up. She built this in a protected area with literally everything she needed.
@@mouadchaglalchimistefullme6116 Dang, so I guess all the stuff she was able to do and invent in Z on short notice is just as bad. On the other hand, you do know Blutz waves in the Dragon Ball universe has been around since original Dragon Ball, as they are what cause the Great Ape transformation, and are a natural source. All she basically built was a Blutz Wave director, a magnifying glass if you will, for Blutz Waves.
One thing that I think is really underappreciated about GT is Trunks. Or rather, that he wasn't just a copy-and-paste of Future Trunks, which would have been the easy way out. No, GT Trucks has a vastly different personality, which in turn is a direct result of his vastly different upbringing, and I love it.
@@DrJareldone standout, ledjic. otherwise, better to have 1 bad, 1 great, and consistently good than oftentimes really bad and just "fix it for the blueray"
@DrJareld Nah, the manga isn't much better. Especially the ToP, its actually worse in the Manga. Now, the post-anime plots DO exceed GT IMO but Toei has yet to adapt those.
I like that GT had a flowing, overarching story mainly having to do with the Machine Mutants. The encounters with them in the Black Star Arc lead into the Baby Arc, those first two arcs are the catalyst for the Super 17 arc (Dr. Mu’s revenge), which itself triggers the Shadow Dragons arc.
do one for his GENUINELY bad GT "fixed" take. It's legitimatally so bad that it literally forgets that GT stands for Grand Tour and the central theme was a trip around the galaxy, which Daima is going. He makes the baby arc start at the beginning, then Vegeta kills him after randomly recuperating his body and then only omega shows up 2 days later to fight 1 time and be defetead. Utterly insulting that people go "bravo mark, it's so good, i cried". It's slop.
One more point of how super saiyan 4 is more 'earned' than what mark gave it 'credit' for is based on seth's view of ssj4. It's not enough that you need great strength to transform from golden oozaru to ssj4, it's also implied that love and the desire to protect that offsets the feral power of oozaru is needed. Goku when transforming to oozaru was already thinking of his friends and family, and pan is the final catalyst to help him. Vegeta is the same too, the once prideful warrior has now positively grown to see earth as his home and has selfless desire to protect it helped him turn ssj4. This is why baby couldn't go ssj4, he's the manifestation of the tuffle's hate, all his love he ever had is the support he got from his brainwashed subjects. It's not even a new concept, gohan in the fight against vegeta was about to stomp his own friends as oozaru before goku rekindled his love for friends and family. I also don't see the point of his critique of the shadow dragons being only evil being a new thing to gt only. Vegeta when we first saw him was just an egomaniac wanting to be the strongest. Frieza is a generic brutal emperor and we loved him, cell's main goal is to kill goku just like the rest of the androids of gero and the evil is on top of it. Majin buu is literally supposed to be just like the shadow dragons on terms of mainfestation. And let's be honest super anime only had one true evil villain that is zamasu.
21:52 To be fair to Mark on this type of “swerve” we are given info that Baby can control people without having to be the host by this point, because of the countless infected members and the big moment where Goten ends up succumbing to the effects later on in his home after Baby infects Gohan. So when this scene arrives we are reminded that Trunks has been infected before, so the dots do connect. So I don’t think its all hate because it’s related to the Black Star Dragon Ball arc. I think he just prefers writing with foreshadowed events rather than surprises with no clues. I do see your perspectives on other things it’s just something I noticed in the video.
There's an important distinction there though, Baby overcame Goten and infected him fully, then left his body of his own volition. Trunks expelled Baby forcefully, so there's no hint that Baby left a piece of him inside Trunks until you learn of the whole egg ability much later into the arc.
@@purerage7963 I mean the fact that Baby was literally controlling mutiple humans at once is a hint that he could control others without being in their body as a host solefully, which is literally in the next episode after Trunks was infected briefly. Then Goten sucumming to the effects is still before the mentions of the eggs. The reveal of the eggs afterwards during the aftermath of Baby Gohan vs Vegeta explains the process but its not that late in the arc and still an entire episode before its revealed Trunks could have been controlled at anypoint if he wanted.
@@KeyLeech What I meant was that since Baby left Goten's body on his own, it's plausible that he left a piece of his goo in him (since that's the mechanism through which we see Baby control people), meanwhile Trunks pushed him out entirely. The twist with the eggs is that Baby left those inside Trunks rather than a bit of his goo, hence why Trunks could not expel it with ki alone and needed the Sacred Water.
@@purerage7963Baby doesn't leave any pieces of goo though, its all eggs, I have no idea where you got this goo thing from, its only himself or the eggs that hatch into other Baby clones. Even if it did I don't even see what your point even is. My original point was saying that Totally Not Mark just seems to like a good swerve and thats it, and since we literally see Baby controlling other people outside of being the primary host, its plausible to be like "Oh that makes sense since he infected Trunks for a period of time, and he didnt activate it since he was collecting the dragonballs still". Like we can come to that conclusion is my main point.
Most of Mark's criticism in the Black Star Saga is how bizarre things are and I have to disagree on that since you are literally watching Dragon Ball, you can't expect stuff to be 'normal' when they're literally in space, of course there will be bizarre creature and things
i mean it was pretty bizarre though. Plenty of bizarre things happen in dragon ball, but a lot of the bizarre things that happen in the black star saga and some of the super android 17 saga are bizarre without cohesion and sometimes are just there to awkwardly drag goku away from the plot.
It's basically just " i wanted this to be very serious dbz " which funnily enough he even said at the start of the video so no wonder he was having this much of a hard time putting up with it .
@@humanman9920 Nah that wasn't quite it. Although i don't completely agree with all he has to say on it, the problem isn't with the idea of lower stakes or comedy in dragon ball, the problem he had was with the execution.
@@MuhammadAli-rw3vn I see what you're saying. But EoZ having Uub being a reincarnation of pink bubble gum? Seems pretty bizarre to me. But that's OK. It's Dragon Ball.
Its kinda funny when people say they want adventure style stuff and then get frustrated and say that it's all pointless stuff. That's what adventure style is: monster/problem of the week that needs to be solved in 2 to 3 episodes and then you move on to the next place. OG Dragon Ball managed to find a very good balance between adventure and battles, mixing the world tournaments with stuff like the Red Ribbon Army for example. GT's issue was simply not having really really interesting stuff on it's adventure journey, heck they even reused Oolong mini arc's premise for some reason.
I feel like half of the problem with Geets getting SSJ4 is that it happens off screen, but it’s no different than when he got SSJ in Z. I also love the fact that they went with the original brown hair color emphasized by the light of the aura
You are the only DB channel because you know the real meaning of canon and continuity while other channels just say "this is non canon" and proceed to the next subject as if they proved anything. They seem to falsely believe that canon means like and non canon means dislike and that only canon is real Dragon Ball while non canon is not. You on the other hand knows that canon and continuity are simple there to tell what characters and events belong where and why, nothing more, nothing less. Everything that is made by Toriyama, Toei, Bandai etc etc are official Dragon Ball products.
I grew up with the original dragon ball before Z, so when i started watching gt it reminded me of how i loved the adventures of the original and instantly made me put my dbz expectations away.
I don't have anything against Mark personally but I didn't enjoy that particular video of his at all, it honestly felt like he was being INCREDIBLY biased against GT the entire time right from the get go. It's one thing not to like GT in general, you're allowed to have that opinion. However it's another thing to be SO critical of EVERY SINGLE THING that happens in the show to the point that it just straight up sounds like he's CONSTANTLY looking for something to nitpick or looking for even the smallest thing to hold against the show. It might just be me but it just felt like he was hating on it the entire time just for the sake of hating on it. I don't even remember him being this negative when he did a review on Super. Honestly props to Saiyan Scholar for going through the entire video with a calm and respectful attitude, he shared his disagreement in a calm and civil manner which I think is a rarity on the internet.
I would say "mixed ideas, mixed execution", which isn't bad. Doing the adventure thing was mostly a bad idea, and slowed the pacing to a crawl so much they had to abandon it immediately. Him becoming a kid was unnecessary since we had Pan and Bra, and Goten and Trunks, if anything, they could have been the veterans and we could have developed the young characters again. As far as mixed execution, SSj4, Gogeta, and Kamehameha x10 was cool, but the decision to oversaturate everything, as well as most of the other stuff, we all know is mixed.
@@Goblin_Hands It wasn't a bad idea , it doesn't come with a bad pacing but it had bad pacing . They abandoned it because it got pretty much rejected reasonably . They wanted Goku to still be at the centre that's why they made him a kid to let him work his way through in that arc , if he was an adult it'd called worse if he just stood by the side or took the lead and ended things anticlimactically . An og dragon ball like adventure at this point with stakes like this just wouldn't work with Goku being an adult , it barely passes with him getting nerfed as a kid . I just think if the pacing was better with some plot polishing , both the arc and kid form could've worked well . And after seeing how they introduced Ssj4 , i can't complain much about the kid form cuz it made Ssj4 even more awesome . Yes the execution was mixed .
@@humanman9920 Well, maybe it's the Super in me that's just tired of seeing Goku as the protagonist every time. I liked him best in the Cell/Buu arc where everyone else had a chance to fight and he came later. In GT and Super, it's just Goku, Goku, Goku, and more Goku. We didn't even see Gotenks or Gohan fight (barely).
just came here from watching mark's buu arc review and what u said here at the start abt how unreasonably harsh ppl are on GT rings so true. again, no hate to mark, and I get his Z review series was meant to be more of a "love letter" than a review but to me the double standard is...palpable. in the super 17 arc mark said piccolo's telepathy powers came out of nowhere, but in the buu arc he specifically praised the scene of him telepathically communicating w/ goten and trunks. in the shadow dragons arc mark pointed out how pan and most of the cast got sidelined in the final fight, but didn't say anything abt the buu arc completely throwing half the characters away (though he did talk abt gohan's misuse). again in the shadow dragons arc he said "the shadow dragons are evil just bc, they have no motivation" while he praises buu for just being a pure evil creature. idk maybe this just was bothersome to me bc I personally think the buu arc is worse than any arc in GT--just me tho
I actually believe Baby has the best back story, motivation and build up out of every single villain in dragon ball, dbz, and DBS. Gt got that right. Baby slaps as a villain.
I love Marcs content BUT I never, never ever understood his hate for DB GT... GT tried to mix the light hearted style from the original dragonball with the intensity of dragonball Z and managed to do that greatly. In places where tension was necessary, there was tension, in places where fun and adventure was key, there was fun and sillyness and adventure... his issue, just as many others, is a wrong expection that was not met. It is even wilder if you assume how much he apperently loved the original dragonball, yet he gives gt no love for exactly that... it is sad, just sad. I sometimes wonder if we have seen the same show, as my exprience differs so much from his *sigh*
I dont get how GT is supposed to be more like Z, but cant be more like the og? I mean isnt that why the black star arc is mostly skipped? Bcs its adventure style, like the og
It's a small thing but I actually really like Vegeta taking Bulmas help. I get the didn't train/earn comments as I feel that a lot of times especially in super. I thought pretty thematic though for Vegeta in getting ss4. At this point vegeta is no longer so self absorbed he is a family man, he'll take any help. A scientist, a non combatant, Burma isn't even a low powered human. Bulma is someone the original vegeta would never take help from. Now she's his wife valued over likely everyone but his children and who helps him reach his apex of power. Vegeta isn't ss4 because of raw power, but growth over the series
And he trains in the gravity chamber like all the time , the " didn't train/earn " is always because there wasn't as much build up as Goku got and the training happened off screen .
It also makes sense that Bulma would be able to create a weapon that could destroy the Z fighters when she's possessed. I think her character was handled pretty well throughout the show.
people in vegeta's mind (gt): bulma, kakarot, trunks gohan and bulla people in vegeta's mind (super): freeza/kakarot/jiren/beerus/more freeza/more kakarot/even more freeza
Totally Not Mark's takes are pretty much generic. He doesn't even understand what he's watching. When I heard him saying he had no idea how the black star dragon balls worked I knew he only watched the Funi dub and from there I lost interest and left. I get GT is not for everyone but I seriously wish people would just watch the sub before posting their takes on RU-vid. All he's done is made GT look worse. Like it needed more of that publicity. Thanks for making this video, it's very much needed. Edit: Sweet jell-o on the hood of a Hummer I knew I was on the money to leave the moment he admitted to not understanding how the Black Star Dragon Balls worked but my gosh listening to him misunderstanding everything in GT was like nails on a chalkboard. Who watches for understanding these days anymore? Smh
He did the same thing to bleach, doesn’t pay attention then says some generic criticism that doesn’t add up if you read/watch the series yourself. Also skips parts from the series that would directly counter his points. (Although that could be on accident because he didn’t pay attention)
@@sun-noir bad faith. He's never liked Super that much either and he actually praises GT over Super in many instances. You should be better than this if you're going to posture.
@@klein8378 For as much effort as Mark puts in his videos he's truly the average Hollywood action flick equivalent of anime takes, just the safest and most popular opinions repeated throughout without any proper arguments.
GT was the first to start the "consequences" plot line. Super only followed suit with adding gods to the mix. Yes - Pan's potential wasted, that one episode with beat boxing dancers was not really needed (even though it was a good kind of weird), and after the series end along with the Future Descendant special there was no more information to figure out what happened in between the 100 years that had Grandma Pan taking care of Goku Jr. But - Pan is a staunch fighter who is pretty ballsy for her age, Goku HAD to find a new power-up in order to take on a new threat since in his child form he only has the Super Saiyan power-ups, Goku discovering the most awesome power-up in the series (Super Saiyan 4), and there are massive stakes at play that surrounded an over arching plot (minus the Super 17 battle as it's not connected to the same plot). I still like GT to this day and it's a shame that we didn't get more for the time skip special (Dragonball GT:AF) because it would be a new adventure and different Goku.
9:32- 9:38 I thought that was covered. After Oolong wished for Shelong/Shenron to kill Nappa and Vegeta, Shenron stated that wish couldn't be granted because he couldn't grant a wish greater than that of Kami's capabilities. And since Nappa and Vegeta were stronger than Kami that wish was impossible to grant.
I've watched through Mark's review before watching this, and he does make some good points, but is misguided in other areas. At the end of the day, we are all dragonball fans and we can all appreciate it in it's various forms.
As someone who loves Dragon Ball GT, I still can't understand people's hatred of GT, it wasn't that bad once you get past the BSDB arc(Seriously, nothing post the Black Star Dragon Ball arc is that bad 💀). GT was insanely awesome to me, I loved everything about it, especially Super Saiyan 4, yes GT wasn't that good, even worse than Super in some aspects, but GT was truly a gem in the ruff, yeet all the ruff off GT and boom! You got the badass Story that is DB GT.
yeah super 17 arc was garbage but its definitely the type of trash that's so bad, its decent and it has good moments and if im being honest there are arcs in super worse than that lmao
I always disliked the argument of: "It's dumb they just "forgot" the Black Star Dragon Balls were there." I mean, in this entire Dragon Ball Series, we have a character like Piccolo that regularly forgets what powers he has like stretchy arms and turn giant, which he had to be reminded by Krillin that he can turn giant... Like, c'mon, how do you forget that power. And then there's Kami and Piccolo that DON'T EVEN REMEMBER THEIR OWN NAME...
I have to disagree on one thing with you Scholar. GT is a masterpiece. Yes it has flaws many, but it came form the heart. It was a love letter to all of Dragon Ball not just Z. GT is the perfect series to end Dragon Ball. I hope someday it will get a Kai version or a remake that'll iron out the problems and elevate the good points even more.
I have and still like the final arc of GT. Having some kind of consequence to over using the dragon balls was awesome. I also think the reason alot of American fans didn't like gt was because they never watched Dragon Ball and by never watching it missed out on what dragon ball was at its beginning. GT to me was trying to go back to its roots. That's way the first arc Is them chasing down the balls just like the original arc.
I love Mark's channel and been following him for years, but I do tend to take some negativity with his GT review. With his OG Dragon Ball and Z reviews, he's watched those shows and has a very deep understanding of them in manga and anime, but with GT only has a surface level view of it. As Saiyan Scholar has seen GT multiple times, he has a very in-depth view of the show that others don't, just like Mark does with original db and z. So not giving GT that same approach sorta gives Mark's review a dishonest and kinda lazy feel to it. It doesn't feel like he's trying to form his own in depth opinion as he usually does but is purely trying to appeal to the fanbase that dislikes GT. To his defense, if you're a huge dragon ball fan but never gave GT a full watch, you too would be influenced over the years by the toxic part of the fandom that GT is a terrible show with nothing good about it and you're a fake fan for liking it.
The issue i have with marks videos is they way he presents a lot of his praise/criticism where he tries to make it seem objective when by its nature critiques are subjective, what makes a certain scene or arc effective just isn’t the same for everyone, but he tends to frame his critiques around some objective view of how things should be done (i.e goku having been aged up so he’d make for a better action protagonist) and this creates a sense within a community where because his opinions are “backed up” they are more valid and makes people more willing to jump into bandwagons rather than forming their own opinions.
I couldn't agree more, that is one thing that annoyed me with Mark's reviews sometines, how he acts as if he is atleast trying to be unbiased and objective, but in reality he isn't, which isn't a problem on itself but the way he present things are really misleading, and his bias really shows in pretty much all of his super and Gt reviews, he criticises gt for the most miniscule of problems yet lets super get a pass with so much crap, i didn't even noticed it at first until i watched Swagkage's reviews on super who i think do a good job at pointing out pretty much all the flaws of super in a way more unbiased and fair way, even though swagkage is very open on how he doesn't like super
I don't get that, I feel like his critiques are as valid and subjective as anyone else's, I don't really get a Mauler vibe from him where he tries to frame everything under an objective lense.
@obsu I agree, the differences between these critiques are mark is going from a critical story analysis, where as this video is looking from a more emotional standpoint. Stating things don't make sense because it will come back later does not change the fact that it's bad writing or directionless, it just is something people use to help explain why the bad decisions can make sense
@@arthuralexander1449From what I remember he criticized Super just as much as GT hell the first 2 videos were basically him shitting on super and from there a pretty consistent critique of the show
Another thing I’m seeing a lot of Dragon Ball fans complain about that Mark mentioned a few times in this video too that’s such a stupid complaint is “the issue of plot convenience and coincidence” this literally happens in every form of media…. From movies to television, to video game stories. It’s part of helping plots move forward and isn’t just a dragon ball exclusive concept. I hate how a lot of people are starting to hold that over Dragon Ball’s (not just GT) head all the sudden because it’s really a dumb thing to complain about and only call Dragon Ball out for. Also he complained about Baby Vegeta growing a tail yet didn’t have an issue with Kid Gohan’s tail literally falling out his ass during the Saiyan saga fight with Vegeta
Is it stupid? It does happen yes but when it happens a lot? Eh...it can be a issue. The difference is Baby Vegeta grew a tail years after his last one was cut off...so it seemed like he stopped growing tails for good, unlike Goku or Gohan the first time.
I actually like gt more then super honestly. GT goku was the character I was use too. In super he put people in danger because of his desire to fight powerful opponents. Even though super has awesome transformations. I prefer the simplicity of GT. Super sayain 4 was an awesome design for 2 full sayains.
Bc of the recent drama with SethTheProgramer I was incredibly worried for some reason despite really liking your content. Glad you're still one of my favs even if you're not one of the most popular. As someone who grew up on GT with a ton of appreciation towards it like you do, I was slightly concerned at first, but I'm glad at how maturely you handled this as I watch both of your channels a lot. Thank you for showing that these kinda "debunked" videos can be perfectly civil and respectful in terms of critiques. Everyone is allowed a different opinion and in this time of utterly stupid and needless dragon ball drama, I'm glad a regular discussion on the series can be had despite differing opinions without outright shame being thrown towards the differing party. Like I said, I love Mark's content and he's actually helped me become closer with some of my irl friends bc of our love of his material, but people's interpretations of material is their own and able to be taken as valid just as someone else's. I like GT a lot more than Mark does but he doesn't shame anyone for liking it and I'm glad you share the opposite opinion in terms of really liking it but not shaming someone for disliking it bc there's plenty of points for either direction
GT has always been my favorite of all Dragon Ball and watching it with my son as a grown woman and being able to understand the story from a new perspective has made me love it even more
@@MaxiemumKarnage Ikr , i generally like his reviews but this was one of the very few times it just didn't look like he even went into it with an open mind like he claims to , other than misinformed opinions and false or self contradictory logic to call things bad he seemed too eager to poke the things in it.
Like I know they said they aren't going to continue Dragon Ball Abridged but I always had this thought. Goku teleported with cell to king kai's planet and blew it up. Well King Kai would be pisted at him for destroying his planet and killing him. So when Goku was there for 7 years King Kai would make Goku train none stop without sleeping or eating.
It's nice having someone view GT with an open mind and make reasonable arguments. I will agree that while GT isn't super amazing, it isn't bad either; it's a fun show with many good and rememberable moments. Some people just lime to take a surface level look at it and bash it for no reason than just because coughtfscough.
The Bulma point is so true because without Bulma and some of her feats they wouldn't be alive. Going back to original Dragon Ball they would have had to walk everywhere without the capsules. Not to mention she invented time travel lol
I would also like to point out that Pilaf likely only got to the lookout because of Goku and Uub's fight distracting Dende and Popo. I remember Pilaf saying things like this was a diversion or something. Also at 45:43 minutes to remind you of what Omega Shenron would say, to quote Saiyan Scholar in one of his previous videos: Vegeta.........................YOU'RE A GODDAMN DISGRACE!!!!!!
While I disagree with this review at some points and personally don't like GT from when I was a kid, you gave some very interesting points that made me think differently about some aspects of the show. Good video man.
I never could like GT or Super. That said I did apprecaite two things. 1) The callback to the savage saiyan history with the Golden Oozaru. 2) GT had the balls to actually give Goku an ending and stopping.
A lot of people get this one wrong , and i understand how they feel , but they don't know what to criticise and choose the wrong thing . Vegeta didn't get much buildup to ssj4 right before the moment he got it and it felt a bit anticlimactic , but the machine being used to transform him into an Ozaru isn't wrong at all , people just forget basic logic to express their emotions on this one . I wouldn't want some weird nonsensical ozaru transformation where he just transforms into it by screaming or something , there are other ways that moment could've felt more climactic like Omega interrupting the transformation and attacking him in golden ozaru , it wouldn't be out of his character either to just beat around someone without killing them as he does that later too and is arrogant , followed up with a more lengthened inner monologue of Vegeta and everyone else trying to remind him his purpose , with Omega not giving him time to calm down either and continuously making it harder for him to do it , then something like Goku somehow keeping him busy for a short moment and Vegeta finally getting it . Goku's version feels so awesome because he was beaten to a pulp , a second time at that and looking at earth in a helpless state when the process started , struggled a lot before he getting it finally with Pan's help , compared to that Vegeta's version felt underwhelming cuz his buildup was just the training which happened off screen , so it definitely could've been executed better for Vegeta , but the machine had LITERALLY NOTHING to do with this shortcoming . It fits that they showed Vegeta gaining back the control much easily compared to Goku cuz back then he could fully control regular ozaru , but he still should've gotten some kind of struggle so Omega interrupting would be the perfect thing .
Pretty much entirely agreed. Anime fans generally get into arguments (petty ones especially) because they have an idea of what they want but don't know how to express it. With Vegeta getting SSJ4 they tend to emphasize the lack of a struggle factor which Vegeta is known for bringing to the table, but GT Vegeta is more composed and subdued than Z Vegeta. If Vegeta struggled like you suggested, and his transformation further emphasized the difficulty in mastering Golden Oozaru which was only shown on the outside with Goku, then more people would've had that subconscious desire fulfilled and that transformation and the need for the Blutz Wave Machine would be accepted. Logic is important but emotion is what drives personal investment.
Very nice and respectful debunking, if I had any criticism it would probably have to land on the praising of the original Japanese dub. Not really saying it's bad, but it's just as guilty of being a fluff piece at the funi dub. People tend to glaze over the fact that subs are just as inaccurate as the dubbing and just because someone wrote it on the bottom of the screen doesn't mean that's what was said. Japanese and English just aren't compatible languages and I think to many people blindly like subs because they can't understand the language therefore it must be more accurate by default
I grew up with watching GT on toonami so I’ve never personally hated it and never got why it gets so much hate. Was it perfect? No… Did it have issues? Of course but I don’t think it was bad enough to deserve the hate GT gets today. To me it was a let down as a follow up to Z but it was a decent show in it’s own rights. I also just recently watched GT Sub and wow the difference is night and day especially with the script. Watching Sub version made me like GT even more than I already did. Main thing that I did dislike about GT as a kid was the reverting Goku back to a kid which was fixed with the introduction of SSJ4 but honestly I wish they would’ve either treated SSJ4 like a base form for him and kept him like that permanently for the series or had the SSJ4 transformation completely nullify the wish of him being turned into a kid and let him have his normal base form adult body because it was kinda weird for him to keep swapping back and forth between a kid body and an adult body
I first watched GT when I seen the VHS tape for it at the store and mistook it for Dragon Ball Z. still was not disappointed at all since it was still Dragon Ball.
@@brandonking5111 exactly, as a kid and he’ll even still now, I’m happy to get anything Dragon Ball which is also why I don’t hate on Super. I grew up in a period where the only Dragon Ball content we got was video games for a whole decade so to think that new Dragon Ball content is being made after growing up in that dark age is enough to make me happy lol
You gave it worthy justice. I actually don't like Dragon Ball Super and absolutely love Dragon Ball GT. And before someone will tell me "GT is not cannon super is." I don't care I love GT for what it is. My ranking for the parts of the franchise: 1.DBZ 2.DB 3.DBGT 4.DBS.
@Saiyan Scholar, I like Gt, but also that ENTIRE Movie timeline 🔥 1) O.G. 3 (or 4) O.G. D.B. movies 2) O.G. 13 Dbz Movies (including off screen Saga events & Movie Timeline version of Bardock & Future Trunks events) 3) Dragon Ball Gt
11:14 thanks for perspective here. Mark’s one of the good RU-vidrs but this goes to show how easy it is to change your audience’s opinions when you don’t include all the facts. I bet a lot of TNM viewers forgot that they crash landed and agreed with Mark going “oh yeah. That episode was a waste of time”
I cant hate Dragon Ball GT even if it's bad, I grew up watching this show every Sunday with my mom when she was still alive, I still remember the good times watching anime with her. Btw, Latín American dub for the win
15:05 If there is one very clear thing i got from this other than some very uninformed or misinformed opinions with poking tones , it's that Mark DID NOT want og dragon ball like things , which is no wonder because he basically made it clear at the start saying he expected the dbz feel , but i thought he'd at least sound aware that og dragon ball was a thing and it did some things differently in this review . This is the point for me which highlights it the best , mini bosses were basically just a no no for him , you said it ,the dbz expectation is what makes it much harder for people to enjoy that first arc . In Super 17 arc Goku actually had another plan if the 10x kamehameha went wrong( though i may be misremembering and he may have thought of that as the fight went on later) , it was to catch Super 17 in a close range body blast , which also ended up failing because Super 17 put up some kind of special barrier at the last moment . About Goku getting ridiculous power near the end , it surely seemed very nonsensical when Goku was pushing back the smaller negative karma ball a bit , but later after getting to the end there are enough hints to make sense of that and it's actually cool that they included the struggle part before showing Goku being completely invincible against that and shrugging it off as nothing while holding the spirit bomb , Pan even said he looked like a god while holding that , and he wasn't dead because Shenron healed his wounds after Omega's defeat . This was a well made mature response to that video and had most of the things i wanted to point out as unnecessary or false . Keep making content like this . This was awesome .
@@dannysmi7162 I don't think he stopped some grapple attack like this with it before though , i thought it can only stop incoming attacks outside a certain range not when someone is sticking to his body but ig it works the same reinforcing ki to increase one's durability but just looks different like a sphere around the body.
Uub should’ve been the focus in my opinion. He was Goku’s pupil for FIVE YEARS and even though he gets some shine later on they just end their 5 year training with a handshake?!🤦🏻♂️
I had the privilege of watching GT with a clear mind years after it ended,I couldn't watch when it aired because I was studying in an imcompatible hours when it aired in my country. Watching it free from the hype and with a clear mind made me appreciate the series more,I wish I could've seen more of Goten though. My only complaint is that I deeply expected it to be more like the OG DB I seen when I was a elementary school kid,that was so dirty and funny.
>there is no filler because there is no manga to fill in Filler *can* mean content added to a pre-existing story... or it could just mean irrelevant content that doesn't move anything forward. You are too fixated on a particular definition of filler.
