Dual Wield Dagger vs Rapier - Rick vs Nick 

whilst i do not do hema ive practiced knife fighting vs twin stick staff and bokken and i feel the dagger user was under utalizing dodging a strike to let the longer weapon user to over extend and trying more to parry in a fencing dueling style. daggers are not for dueling they are for killing as u said the flurry of stabs u use when u get in close leaves nothing to be questioned unless they are plate armoured, and even then from what ive seen and read u use a dagger to end it

@@codymckelvie isn't killing full plate knights made by knocking them to ground and using stiletto to finish them?

Indeed, it is a major factor as to why the dagger is so important. You can see it when facing longswords, katanas, sabres etc. It completely changes the dynamic, as they can no long feel so safe to close.

rapier maybe, something with mass will blow through with force

Laughing Man I don’t think so... if the person wielding the daggers is strong enough I think he’d be able to parry a 2h sword.

@@waldox1 no, that's not how reality works sorry

Laughing Man so you’re telling me if a strong ass dude like the mountain was wielding daggers 🗡 he wouldn’t be able to parry an attack from some normal guy with a 2h sword?

@@waldox1 Bringing up exceptions = brainlet. If the mountain was fighting the mountain, then no. Go watch some skallagrim or metatron or shadversity.

Yes

Was looking for this comment.

Against/with what?

Academy of Historical Fencing Longswords, sabres, rapiers, other arming swords, whatever. I just want to see how they're weilded.

Both are the kind commonly used as offhand weapons, as well as carried for use solo. In the right hand is a simple side ring dagger that was the most common type carried for this use across the whole of Europe. In the left is a shell guard design which was popular in Britain, but also elsewhere. Both daggers were common throughout Europe.

Academy of Historical Fencing Thanks alot for that info.

xD honestly can't wait!

They have a mixed weapon sparring video where sickle and dagger were matched with a spear a few times

As in matched pairs? Not many, but a few. Search for case of rapiers. Matched swords in the renaissance period is shown in about three or four manuals from memory. Like Di Grassi, Marozzo etc.

Not HEMA but krabi krabong does use dual matched swords

with a sai, if you manage to catch the end portion of the rapier its very dificult for the fencer to break free because of the leverage you get, that would give you even more safety and assure the kill, but its more difficult and most of the time you will be using it like a parrying dagger like in the video so apart from the new option to catch it wouldnt change the match too much.

@@nicolasaraya2711 im think a person trained in Rapier and dagger with some added Sai training and maybe some Escrema or Wing Chun could do well. So long as they use 2 Sai like parrying dagger around 21 inches in length or longer. My Sai are 21 inches and that about right if I use Wing Chun techniques. With good hand and arm protection I think in an enclosed space or if you can close in fast you would have an advantage. However the length of the daggers are no less important anything over 21 inches and I would have some difficulty rotating them inside my arms using my Wing Chun.

We use some daggers with large upturned guards similar to a Sai, and we also use some Sai daggers as budget daggers for rapier and dagger training so have some experience of this. The guard provides some additional trapping ability, but it's not a vast change, simply because in a rapier fight the moment of the parry with the dagger is usually the deciding factor, as the rapier should be acting similtanously, as well as the fact they are so long there is a trapping element to any dagger, regardless of guard. It's rare to be to lock them with such a guard, because they are fast and ever disengaging, as well as very thin bladed and flexible (even the original ones, not just our trainers). So it has an effect, just a modest one.

Yes and no. I’ve trained with dual daggers for years and in my exp it really depends on your and your opponents fighting styles. Sometimes it works and you can quickly block the attack then counter with a jab. Other times your opponent is far stronger or expects you to block with both and makes a faint attack or simply drags their blade down your daggers into a forward thrust. IMO while training with any weapon you should first use already perfected methods then tweak them to what works for you as you go.

That all depends on the clubs you have nearby. Many are 18+, but some will take younger. Have a look to see what you have nearby and get in touch.

which means you're 18 now! have you started fencing yet?

@@will2tao Gotta get my license and do some searching first, but its definitely on my list!

Because of the situation he is in. When a long weapon fights a very short one, the one with a small weapon is continually seeking to bind and then it is often all over. Same as spear vs sword. Rick is using cuts to avoid being bound up. Most rapier styles of the era this sword is from use extensive cutting, they just don;'t do it from wide measure, because of the risk of timed hits, which don't exist when you have a massive reach advantage. So he is using the advantages he has to his advantage, and avoiding the major pitfall. This is often the reality of mixed weapon fights, styles adapt and change because they're forced to, or to take advantage. Just like when a rapier faces a two hand sword, it cannot look to cover and use leverage in thrust work, as it has a huge leverage disadvantage, meaning fundamentals of th style have to change.

We've tried ice pick grip dagger in all sorts of scenarios, and whilst offensively it offers some excellent options, defensively it is quite lacking against a sword.

Nah range of sword can help a lot though

No range. In a serious situation a longsword or spear ends your day real fast.

is zat common to anime fans? x) check this nazcret22 below!

Well I don't speak for him, but I think it's because the dagger weilder is trying to parry and then close in, and it's harder to parry a cut than a thrust when holding a dagger.

He uses a mix of cut and thrust. Nope, some thrusts will get through, but a dagger is best suited to parrying thrusts rather than cuts, and the rapier wants to avoid binds which allow the dagger to close, and this usually happens when thrusts are initiated. Cuts are a strategy he moves to, to try and avoid this scenario.

As in the sword breaker designs? They were actually very unusual. Very much a gimic, they can work, but not nearly as well as people think, we did a video on them below - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zWsSJCTFZlw.html

@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing that may be so but I have custom daggers that where primarily made to catch blades and hold it in place. It doesn't have a typical sword catching design at all and they work perfectly. I would love to send you a picture for you to review the blades

No, they're European daggers of the 16th and 17th century style, typically used as offhand weapons.

Problem is the more he Is aggressive and commits to those thrusts, the more he over extends and offers a chance for it to be engaged. Really it is all in the timing of avoiding your opponents weapons daggers in this fight. Which is odd, and very different to typical rapier combat.

Academy of Historical Fencing Would this kind of thing apply with any type of 'dual wielding'? Or only with daggers?

daggers mostly 'cause you must get IN the sword-range. with two sword fighter, both are allready in range. when one is, then they 2 are. I mean.. you got it?

Academy of Historical Fencing Guys ! I know the description says that content was just a strange combination asked by fans, but this topic about two daggers (or even daggers and a glove) can go further and better ! the disaventage of the dagger can be avoided efficiently ! Just by realise that when the 2 fighter havn't the same range, they can't act the same way showed in common codex about sword duel (with the same range!) Here's the thing ! : guard switching ! : (to make THIS 0:50 stop! It bothered since I was a kid! ) One (defend): à l'italienne - you point your right dagger just like it was a rapier and dagger: puting your all arm lenght to compensate the lack of range. Trust it : he can't hit your arm. (and he have a sword, so he can't grab it just like it would have been against another dagger fighter) - The body is in retreat position, showing your right profile (side? i'm not sure it's a fake friend between english and french): in one word, like italians: don't offer place to hit! Keep the most of your body out of range! So the left leg is the support leg. Your feet pointing away from the fight. (yop, away: that's mostly why you must change the guard to attack correctly) AND FINALLY (attack!) : the running stance - You turn your feet (and body) to attack : that mean the point of the sword is not a problem for less than one second: You run now: pretty easy to guess alone. So you get your arms before you in full length to parry a sword hits in 2 directions to create a sort of field of no hits possible = two circles At this moment, it's just like you had two bucklers in hands. You can't block, so deiviate! Then hit in the side of the sword arm to not be bothered by the swordman left arm seems a good idea. Even though ..he will show his left side while retreat especially for this reason (and it will bring back the distance he needs to strike with the sword! But you're prepared :you have two potential bucklers ! ) After that, you stabb him just like he was the guy who ruined your 6 years old daughter's birthday ! Thanks for attention! It would be great if everyone knew it !

Got it.

From a rapier…they can with ease.

They're Fast. You give up a lot of reach on a Rapier (pretty much minmaxed for reach) but nothing reacts quite as fast as Daggers, except bare fists, which suck defensively. Daggers most certainly don't suck. They have their own advantages, and disadvantages, but you generally don't want to give a Rapier time to draw, step back, and come to battery. (Which is basically this fight, engaging from just out of the Rapier's reach.) Try that same fight in an alley, where he doesn't have space to maintain that reach advantage, then see what happens.

Psiberzerker so tru. I didn’t even think about location stuff. Usually I think bigger=better but that doesn’t apply to many things like.... fat, tumors, and mortgages 😆

Safety in a crowded gymnasium perhaps?

Sidestepping against a single rapier is generally a very, very bad idea. Subtle direction change is easy with the rapier. - Michael

Italian Rapier with 2 Daggers? No, they're not both doing Italian Rapier, and it's not THAT rigidly linear. It is pretty damned linear, but this is to a Fault, when you're running backwards blindly giving ground. That was a panic response, because the preceeding charge worked so well. The Rapier can sidestep. With that much reach, he can run circles around his daggers.

With the rapier, just feint high, strike low. Step back, side step. Rinse/repeat, only changeup where you feint, and where you strike. (L/R, low/high...) You'll wear him out eventually. Again, don't give up the engagement advantage. You want him reacting to you at all times, but just keep the tip moving. He has to keep his guard up, and keep reacting until his arms get tired. You don't. I use the same method against a heavier sword (1handed. Rapier vs Longsword sucks.)

Psiberzerker Just like in unarmed martial arts, the guy with the longer jab wins by poking and feinting.

Circling around a rapier isn't all that effective, Spanish fencers do that all the time, but a rapier disengages far faster than the feet, and to be circling simply creates openings against the longer weapon. Also, the concept of wearing someone out and him getting tired doesn't work here. It'll take quite a few minutes before the dagger fighter is remotely effected by fatigue, the fight isn't going to last that long. Working in a straight line with a very small area to defend is incredibly effective, because what the dagger needs is to create as few openings as possible, and has one goal - get a bind. Everytime he attempts an attack with the point he offers you a good chance of getting that, and even in many feints. Whilst we can draw similarities to unarmed martial arts, there are also a lot of differences. You can't afford to take hits, as a single blow could end you. A long rapier is cumbersome and can get bound up. There are a lot of factors that make it very different. Rapier's use of feints goes without saying, which he was using a lot here, but a blow still has to be landed, and often in that time it was parried.

I didn't say circle a rapier. Circling daggers isn't much more effective. I said sidestep. Or more specifically know when and how to sidestep. Circling doesn't really accomplish anything (Except build tension in fencing movies) a singular side-step can be the most effective thing at the moment, and is vastly preferable to running backwards, giving ground. Okay, "Get a bind." What then? Getting past the point and in striking range are not goals, but a Bind is a win condition? A bind ties up both of your daggers on his sword. Then what? No, the ultimate goal is to land a killing, or incapacitating goal. Binding is a technique, not a goal. Also, holding and defending a line is effective, if you're standing in a corridor. Not out in the open, on a flat and level. Which this is. Similarly when they're uneven ground, or obsticals you can use. You're taking the side plates from the treatises too literally. Olympic style fencing does to. Practice defensive sidesteps, and parries as well ass linear. You attack linear, defend/evade laterally. Otherwise the ONLY direction you can move is into their point, or away, which makes you predictable. Learn when, and how to side-step, and don't give ground by running blindly backwards. What precisely is that supposed to accomplish?

Side steps are not necessarily preferable to moving backwards, it has plenty of weaknesses of its own. Of course getting a bind is a goal here. This isn't a longsword fight. Once that bind is had, it is easy, and fight almost guaranteed to be over every single time. No a bind doesn't tie up both your daggers. For a start you only have to use one, and even if you do use two, the release is extremely quick, as seen in the video. We use side steps and traversing where it is appropriate. Swordsmanship became more linear over time because it is efficient and effective. No linear doesn't make you predictable, because you are entirely forgetting about the weapon, which should be doing most of the work. Lateral movement can benefit certain blade work some of the time, that is all. The styles I teach from use very little lateral movement, and predominately linear motions in attack and defence, and those styles are two hundred years apart. Other styles approached things differently. If you want to use those find. But in this case its a bit like saying, your Karate is wrong because in Kung Fu we do this.

T4nkc0mm4nd3r Not garbage but definetly sub-par. Curved swords, polearms, shields and spears will all kick your ass.

It is only better than fists, or one dagger, though even that is debatable because a free hand is extremely useful in a fight with short weapons. So, considering there is no situation where dual-wielding daggers would be a clearly better choice (even in confined space, as mentioned, single dagger could be as good or better), I think you could say that it is garbage compared to every other weapon combinations, except for the really stupid ones, like dual wielding bows, meelee sling and catapults inside a building ;)