Just today, I was experimenting with my sub, the phase switch, the roll over frequency, it’s position in the room, etc. I felt the lowest bass was weak compared to what I was used to hearing. Stand up bass was clean all the way down, but some songs were lacking the deepest bass I had come to enjoy. Then I discovered that the sub was not plugged into the wall. I rewired the system last week, and accidentally unplugged the sub. 😂 So, my Martin Logans have GOOD bass by themselves, and the sub DOES add that last octave. Color me embarrassed. Tomorrow I will follow Paul’s fine instructions on this video to set it just right.
Paul, Excellent directions for Roger to re-integrate and balance his JL Audio subs! You also inspired a wonderful sub change in my setup! With my past pre-amp LP (low pass) and HP (high pass) outputs, Was well pleased with integration of the stand monitors and sub (or so I thought). Last year, I removed that control preamp and made the stand monitors play full range by using the variable outputs from CD player to directly drive my power amp. I've now achieved the extremely open 3D holographic sonics I have been seeking these past 4 decades. Now with that ear-opening source change and to re-introduce my sub to the system, I succumb to your best-practice-recommendation of hooking my high level amplifier output signals to my sub high level inputs to gain an even better and more seamless integration throughout the bottom end. WOW, WOW...what a synergistic and perfect blend of tonality, timbre, resolution and fast bass response between sub and stand monitors!! Presentation is now an 18HZ to 28K HZ balance of pure music in my audio room that seems to come from a single point source...the recording itself...no system, no room, just me and the performers in their recorded venue...Amazing!!!
It was noted the questioner has a JL sub. If it’s a JL Fathom it comes with a microphone and a setup feature that filters out unwanted resonances in the room. After that’s done with this specific sub, Paul’s suggestions are right on point! I use this subwoofer and it is quite a performer when setup properly.
Even if your mains go down to 19hz it is good have a subwoofer smoothen freq response by filling in those nulls and share the load for reduced distortion.
Audiophiles do not use summed mono RCA output's for anything. I know they label them subwoofer outputs. If you connect your subwoofer with RCA's you have chosen the inferior input in terms of sound quality. High level inputs directly from your main amp's terminals is the very best sound quality. Why...because you want the same "Stank" your amp is putting on your main speakers...we want that exact same "Stank" also going to your sub's. Then in terms of sound quality you have set yourself up for success. If home theater impact is all you are after, summed mono and RCA will do fine. Discerning audiophiles (2 channel) w/sub's never use RCA's (for sub's). I also use the exact same speaker cables as my main's going to my sub's...continuity is the goal. Audiophile grade outlet's at the wall are underrated. A requirement in my mind. Enjoy the audio journey 1 improvement at a time.
Thanks so much Paul! It has been a routine everyday to first listen to your video and then divert to other videos. It's a good source of inspiration and strength to venture on the high road which audiophia dreams are made of! Bless you!
A lot of people do not know how to use a sub... they think of it as a boombox...and the louder it booms, the more they like it. I am a pipe organ lover and have a REL Strata in front and a Q150E in the back, so I have a near flat response from 19-23000 Hz. The subs are trimmed to come in from where the main speakers(ESS AMT1D) stop playing at about 35Hz...no booming at all. The room is 50 square meters and in my listening chair 30Hz is missing from the front setup...the Q150E fill that gap...my system sound like a live performance.
It's likely that the high pass filter on the Sub Box that you made a quick reference to has an output for active mains or the amp for passive mains, with a signal void of the lows that are crossed over to the sub.. The Main amps get to operate more efficiently without wasting resources on the very low frequencies already handled by a designated, high power Sub Amp and the Mains woofers are relieved of the burden of reproducing the lowest Hz by a larger, more capable designated subwoofer(s).
My situation is a bit different. Using vintage Magnapans, the bass coming from the speakers is less than stellar. It's tough to get the bass sounding like it's coming from the panels. I'm using 2 subs, and I find placement more of an issue than frequency. I've found unusual placements work the best.
magnapans are a bitch to blend with subwoofers the speakers are very fast and most subwoofers can't keep up with them need to get realy good subs to blend them in .hope this helps 😊
I have a Klipsch R-112SW sub augmenting my 30 year old Magnepan MG-1.5/QR speakers. The sub is right beside my chair facing the panels, and it can be tricky getting them to blend and is really dependent on the type of music. But usually I can get it to sound like it's all in the panels if I don't overdo it with the gain. I also have a pair of little Wharfedale Diamond 2.0 speakers on stands and I can get it to work okay with them also. I think if I had researched better I would have gone with an SVS sub since there is a lot more control using their mobile app.
@@chrislj2890 I'm using a pair of MG2as. I also have my infnity RS12 beside my chair, and a JBL behind me. My results are really great! It sounds great,but not really sounding like it's coming from the panels.
@@stephenstevens6573 Usually if I can't get it to sound right I just back the sub all the way off. I'd rather lose the deeper bass than have it unnatural, unattached or muddy sounding.
thanks for the guide but at what volume on the sub do you do your process of raising the cut-off frequency until it is too loud ? (active subwoofer also have a volume knob)
Problem with adjusting any sub is that you have to get next to it, which is not your listening position, so it's a constant back and forth between adjusting and listening .
@@bryanguest2807 i tried this. makes a really weird feeling sound and doesnt go as loud. you hear the bass but it feels more distant and vague. i do not recommend it
@@xXPuReNinjazXx if calibrated correctly and used with big enough woofers for your room volume, it can almost eliminate nulls. Its the principle behind a Double Bass Array, look it up on wikipedia. One woofer pushes while the other pulls regulating the room pressure
Most speakers freq. rating is at 1 watt, i usually don't go past 75db at the chair, so i set the volume of my sub a little higher. Most speakers don't give much bass at that volume.
80 Hz ish is a normal crossover point for most applications. I cant stress this enough...The sub's must disappear. The bass should sound as if it is only coming from the main 2 speakers. If you can literally hear that sub rocking over there in the corner, then you have messed up and go turn that gain down till it disappears.
Here's something I'm guessing you can never do with the subwoofer. My existing system subwoofer (Innovative Audio dual-10 subtable) comes off the preamp but I'm thinking about getting a soundbar for when I don't want to fire my main system. Most of the ones I'm looking at have a subwoofer output port on them. Since I only have one cable going to my subwoofer, could I connect that main line into both the preamp and the soundbar? I'm guessing that would invoke some gain fluctuation issues the fact that every wind a I can find is only about a foot long, that's not a good application for it. Alternatively, instead of running the sub from the preamp, can I run it for my Oppo 205 source directly? I'm guessing *that*.would invoke some kind of noticeable audio delay. There's got to be a way to clearly connect my regular system preamp and nrwly added auxiliary soundbar to the same subwoofer
@Fractal mind it most definitely is not active sub. Jewel tens and I think 400w amplification. I'm checking to see if it has dual RCA inputs, but it's very difficult to get to the connections
I never understand "bass should sound like it's coming from the speakers". Don't we want the speakers to disappear? It should really sound like it's coming from the instruments recorded and being played back, shouldn't it?
Wrong.... even if mains go low they wont account for room nulls... thats the benefit if subs, to place them so that they fix room deficiencies... no room is perfect
The biggest problem is not to set up the crossover frequency, but the difference in efficiency. The subwoofer is an active system from manufacturer A and your main speakers are a passive system from manufacturer B, therefore both systems have a different efficiency curve. Meaning that with the same wattage input, they create different output of volume. So the elephant in the room is how getting those two different systems working together, seamless at different listening levels.
A bass guitar can go as low as 40hz, so start there and go up till you hear the boom, then back it off like Paul said. Good tip Paul, I never used a sub before, so i'll remeber that when I do. Cerwin Vegas are playing down to 20hz, so i'm happy.
A more easier starting point; check the specs of the main speakers-> the lowest number of the range is the number where your roll-off should be, then set the volume of the sub. The lowest number on the specs should have a 3dB dip, it's the same with the roll-off setting on your sub. Or if possible; highpass the main speakers to about 150-200Hz, then set your sub's lowpass number on the number you chose. That way the subwoofer takes care of the entire bass range, to it's own limit ofcourse. F.e.; If the sub only passes low end to 150Hz, then the main speakers should do a highpass to 150Hz
@@whatonearthamito 150-200 Hz also removes low-end room modes from the main speakers. I got that tip from an acoustic expert on RU-vid. Most setups can't do that, so I'd follow the first setup too. If the sub can handle 200Hz it's definitely worth a try.. Like I said, that way the sub does all the hard work.
Unfortunately it will be unlikely that you have the correct phase alignment at the 'chosen' crossover point when rolling the sub off. Meaning your sub might be working against your mains when playing in parallel over this point. Your phase or delay control will assist with this. DSP will be needed to control room nodes, but assuming you do not have the ability to use PEQ filters and dont have any DSP in the sub a few measurements using a mic and REW will be invaluable to see what's actually going on. If you have spent a lot of money on your mains then £100 on a mic and some you tube guidance on REW (free software) and you will be in a much better place. Setting the sub with the knowledge of what's actually happening will save many, many hours of guesswork
no need to complicate things. you can hear the effects of phase issues while you listen. i recommend people use a online tone generator, to do frequency sweeps. between 50 and 120hz you can hear what is goin on. if you are alone and there is no remote for the subwoofer then perhaps a mic and software is faster.
Why all the trouble to try to listen to the crossover point? If you're serious about audio invest in a MiniDSP UMIK-1 (it's cheap and good). Do some measurements with REW (free!) of the main speakers and the subwoofer(s) and set them up properly. You can then get more serious and even time align them (it's not that hard to understand and there are plenty of instruction video's online). I personally would not trust my ears to setup my speakers. Ears are not measurement devices, they are not linear and you just cannot measure peaks and dips accurately by ear. At least learning this by ears is way harder than measuring with REW. PS. I would recommend to highpass the main speakers outside of their natural lowoff point. I takes a lot of the stress away from the mains, so you can put the subwoofer in the spot it is designed for. Also I would certainly even highpass the subwoofer (at about 15hz, depends on room and equipment), that also takes stress away from the subwoofer for frequencies the subwoofer cannot reproduce. I personally use a MiniDSP Flex Balanced for this, but there are very cheap solutions for this like the MiniDSP 2x4hd that also sound fine.
GR Research has designed some of the best filters to take stress off the main's opening the door for more detail and sparkle. Less is more when it comes to the raw audio signal. DSP crossover (in the signal path) seems like an unnecessary manipulation of the audio signal. Imho The goals can be met with a high quality audiophile capacitor and some solder without risking the DSP unit affecting the sound negatively. Sound quality of various DSP unit's vary by manufacturer. As you said " that also sound fine" . I bet some don't, as well. I don't see the reason to risk it. imho. Take care.
@@lexicon612 I do all the DSP in the digital domain. My Flex is my preamp, so no degradation there. The DSP has a precision of 36 bits and 96KHz IIRC, that does not impact the quality in any way. I also do some room correction, that is simply not possible with only some coils and capacitors. When using a DSP with analog input I agree you add a stage to the signal path, but a fully digital DSP does not. But the lack of room correction add way more distortion than the extra DSP step does. PS. I have _way_ less noise with the MinidDSP Flex than with my Rotel RC-1590 preamp I used before.
@@FairyNL Now I understand. I run a PS Audio stack. MKII DAC (Water XLR) to the S-300 amp. My only real upgrade is to add A PS Audio preamp to the stack. $$ and they are pricy. Intel NUK (Coffee USB) to DAC. Like things simple. GR Research 12tc speaker cable kit's. Now that I finally have the right equipment, my speakers have become the weak link. Any suggestions...I have been leaning towards GR Research open baffle bookshelves.
ears not mic's. i tried them both in many ways. its what you hear that matters most. a mic do not work. its for engineering things not adjusting for your own hearing, room and other factors. so please do not put bad idea into peoples mind.
i just let my main speakers roll off naturaly and use an active sub to pick up fully where they hit zero. had to teach my dad not to castrate his own main speakers with an artificial crossover. he disliked subs before due to this false belief of requiring a crossover in his mains. subs are there to support, not replace.
@@sudd3660 i does. "natural" in my example just means "inherent to the loudspeaker at hand" (the whole object, not just the individual woofers). "natural" as in "stemming from anture" does not apply to speakers as all are man made.
When do you people have any time to actually listen to music.. You spend more time fixing this and fixing that. Tweeking this and Tweeking that..etc etc. is that tweeter aimed at my right eye, left eye or my nose..??? when was the last time you actually listened to an entire album without adjusting something OR more focused on buying the next piece of equipment than listening to what is playing… OR listening to Miles Davis Blue album 20 times in one day from 5 different albums. Paul has written down the different db setting to be adjusted for every piece of music he listens to..WHAT..!!
