Dune: Part Two - Spoilers Discussion 

Dune is absolutely NOT a white savior story. It is a warning, and condemnation of unquestioned leadership and how that is easily weaponized and used as a tool for population manipulation. And it's a story about how power is always untrustworthy, no matter the guise it takes. Herbert said as much countless times, the book goes into great detail and uses countless conversations, metaphors and direct references to these themes of caution and critical assessment of such people and social structures. Anyone who is saying otherwise is literally to be entirely dismissed as people that have neither never read the books or even seen these movies. The Lynch film didn't really deal with these themes at all and I suspect a lot of people are using that as a wrong reference point for what the story of Dune actually is.

Because the movie does not really mention the Space Guild, the audience misses a very important thing. When Paul threatens to destroy all spice with atomics, automatically the Space Guild joins his side because they are full on addicted to Spice, they cannot live without it anymore. Without access to the Space Guild Navigators, the Great Houses are stuck on their own territory, meaning that the Fremen can go after them one at a time. As for the Harkonnen destroying Sietch Tabr, it's a replacement scene. In the book, the Harkonnen do a deep strike against a Sietch and kill Paul and Chani's child, which is when Paul decides that he needs to do what he has been afraid of doing. They removed that part of their relationship, but still needed to give a moment where Paul sees that small insurgency won't win the war and needs to escalate.

*Paul puts two cubes of sugar on his coffe* , AS FORESEEN BY THE PROPHECY , PRAISE BE MUAB`DI, LISAN-AL GAIB

No, no, Josh Brolin’s character GURNEY HALEK in the book DID join a group of very successful Spice Smugglers. He thinks that his Atredies family is 100% dead, and needs to accumulate a LOT of money in order to escape the planet. If you know Gurney Halek’s backstory, it makes perfect sense. Gurney was not always with the Atredies. In fact he was born and raised on a HARKONEN planet, as a peon, and sees the Harkonen kill his beloved sister when they can’t force her into being a sekc slave for them. He had to be innovative and self-sufficient to make his way off-world then, before being brought into the Atredies household.

Paul: I’m not the messiah!! Fremen: he is the messiah!!!

The millions/billions die not from the military but from starvation cut off from space travel and trade

No, it is in Dune that the Barron is his grandfather. But he finds out earlier in the book, when they are hiding in the desert in the tent after escaping Arrakeen.

49:20 I disagree about the stamping, I think the stamp is the most powerful move Paul could do at the emperor infront of everyone. Sure he could do the voice, but just like what you guys said with the duel with Rautha, it would lower Paul's display of power. The way Paul handled that sequence was a power move to make the emperor surrender and accept his authority while everyone watches. So instead of using the voice, or even asking AGAIN to kneel, just stamping is a power move/threat that you kneel or die without a word. Same as how as a kid when your parent beat you with a stick to do something and you don't and before they hit you, they hit something else. That stamping scene was one of the most powerful scene imo.

Concerning the Atomics. It's forbidden to use Atomics against people, else everyone gets to nuke you. Paul was like "yea i'm using nukes, but it's aimed at land, not people, so its okkkkk"

The final part was an inch from perfection. The spacing guild was missing. And how they are paralized by paul. It truly conveyed that the fact that Paul held all the cards

Angry Joe Feyd's voice is 100% an impression. I watched the actor being interviewed. He said he studied Stellan's voice, and cadence. So that was on purpose.

The arena fight scene was accurate with the book, the Atreides prisoners were drugged before being sent out to fight Feyd. Feyd has an undefeated streak and all of his fights are fixed beforehand. His blades were even poisoned.

49:15 I disagree, about using the voice on the Emperor. The Emperor needs to submit and it needs to be seen that he is choosing to submit over death.

in regards to the Heretics: yes, that version of Duncan Idaho is genetically enhanced by the Tleilaxu to combat the Honored Matres via sexual intercourse. Sex with this Duncan is the Kryptonite to these Dommy Honored Matres. its crazy, its kinky, and I don't know why I kept reading it. pls send help.

The "house atomics" issue was cannon. Each noble house had nukes in a "mutually assured destruction" agreement.

In the book: it never explicitly stated how the Harkonnens found Sietch Tabr, it's just cut to Paul heard the news of the attack, killing his infant son (Leto II the elder) and captured his sister (Alia) who were hidden. The Sietch were mostly abandoned, the majority of the fremen flees to the south, leaving a handful of fedaykin to guard Paul's family and basically treat the Sietch it as an outpost.

your missing the point of feyd he also had a character ark he was always given everything on a plate because he was the favourite, everything was always there for him to win, the baron put him under pressure, probably for the first time in front of a potential bride of the emperor to show he was worthy, to test him to see if he really had what it takes, just like gurney did with paul, feyd was done well imo

oh i thought chani’s motivations were pretty clear from the start, she does not believe in this whole messiah prophecy bullshit, she’s constantly worrying about what it’ll do to her people and in that scene where Paul speaks to the fremen he’s essentially embracing being the chosen one when he repeatedly told her he didn’t believe in it

He IS the Quiznos Heartattack.

40:24 "But he wakes up an asshole." Paul's mind was opened to all realities and futures after waking from the coma. He seems like an asshole because he is now lazer focused on achieving the one future he knows will save humanity, later to be known as "The Golden Path". If you knew every action you took would ensure a future you wanted, would you care how those actions made you look to everyone else?

I did not like the relationship between Chani and Jessica whatsoever. It was way too cold and made them seem like they were each in it only for themselves when in the books they BOTH loved Paul and wanted what was best for him. Chani is definitely hurt when Paul proposes marriage to Irulan, and he makes promises to her which Chani feels will never last. But then Jessica talks to Chani. *[“Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident: They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.”]* That shows how much Paul loves Chani and how the marriage is 100% a political move for 'peace' and that Chani is the one he desires. He will still be 'Usul' to her and only her.

No Paul doesn't exile himself to stop the Jihad. Its already over at that point. He exiles himself because he truly becomes blind and that is freeman law but also because he knew the finale step was the Golden Path and he feared it so much he knew he couldnt complete it to the fullest. So he left humanity to fend for itself. It just turns out his son Leto would be the one to actually be capable of fullfilling it.

@ 0:58, Actually the movie starts exactly where Part One left off. Hence them still carrying Jamis' body..

Joe forgets that Paul has access to the Fremen and the Sardaukar as emperor. He could easily accomplish a Jihad with that force.

I will say in Dune part 1 Duncan is asked how many fremen are in the desert and says: About 10,000 people in underground in a seiche, and there are 100's of seiches... Millions of fremen. Millions is a FAR more reasonable amount for soldiers to conquer the universe, given they are on par with sardukar without future sight and each fremen is probably equal to 25-50 regular soldiers.

Paul learning he’s harkonnen wasn’t in messiah. He learns it in the tent with his mom after escaping the initial attack. I thought it was odd the first movie hadn’t mentioned it and figured they weren’t going to expand on it. Like how liet Keynes is chani’s mom (father in the book) but they hint at it with the blue ribbon

Paul does not die in the dessert he comes back as “the preacher” and teaches his son. Leto the 2 did nothing wrong.

The foot stamp mirrors the sound of calling the worms. The pounding sound is used throughout as a show of power, fear, authority, control.

41:00 - this is in book 1, Paul tells Jessica she’s the barons own daughter.

I think Denis is turning this Dune series into a Chani and Fremen story. Beginning of the first movie, when she asks who will their next oppressors be? She is wary of someone not Fremen rising above them and oppressing them. She thought Paul wasn't going to do that, but then she saw he was going that route, and that's what drove her away from him in this movie. It is a change from the books, and I'll be interested to see how it works out in Part 3. Will she be part of the Fremen faction against him? For God Emperor of Dune, it was Siona, who was a descendant of Leto II's sister, Ghanima. She was also a descendant of one of the Duncan Idaho gholas. Siona was what Leto II's breeding program was designed to do. He had taken control of the breeding programs of the Bene Gesserits. Where they wanted to breed someone that could see the future and control the future, Leto II wanted to breed someone that would not be detected by anyone with future sight, and return humanity to having free actions and futures, not controlled by someone that could see the future. Then the scattering was to spread humanity everywhere, so there would always be humanity somewhere, to continue the race. Like if a parent keeps a child under control, not letting them explore boundaries, keeping them locked in a tiny area. When that child tastes freedom and can explore, they're going to go wherever they possibly can. Leto II was that strict parent, keeping humanity bottled up, and his death broke the bottle in an explosion for humanity to truly spread, and with no one able to track everyone.

Again even in the book Feyd's prowess was never the question of if he could kill Paul outright. His threat was that he cheats.

they used atomics to take out the shield wall around Arrakeen. This was in the David Lynch version as well. they had to blow a hole in the defenses so they could mount their attack.

They missed out a huge plot in the movie where Paul and Chani did have a first son, called Leto Atreides II the Elder, which was killed by Sardaukar forces in Sketch Tabr.

When brolin saw Bautista my buddy nudged me and was like “drax vs thanos” then in 20 seconds I nudged him and was like “damn that’s exactly how that marvel fight woulda gone” lol

Last Samurai is an absolute masterpiece (one of Cruise's best movies). Tom Cruise isn't even a "white savior", as the samurai actually save him (severe PTSD and alcoholic), plus he doesn't save them as they all get mowed down by Gatling guns (sorry spoilers but you should have seen it by now), they are the last of the samurai. But honestly a character from X culture interacting with a never before encountered Y culture offers incredible opportunities to tell stories, and the character automatically acts as a conduit for the audience member. It shouldn't be sullied by a few haters who want to boil things down into simple binary good bad narrative tropes.

Paul decided not to take the Golden Path but that was his destiny. Paul knew what needed to be done and how but he also saw that his son would indeed save humanity via the Golden Path. Dune is about many things but one of the main themes is that free choice is more illusion than reality.

So in the books there are these devices called suspensors that allow objects and people to hover. The Baron has one of these suspensors because he’s so obese that he could not move by himself. So in the visual adaptations since 1984 the Baron doesn’t just hover he floats and flys around for some reason. And it seems that Denis has expanded the usage of this floating technology to the sardaukar and the Harkonnen troops. When in reality in the books there is just this hovering just above the ground tech.

In terms of the design of armor, ships, and behaviors, Atreides are supposed to be birds while the Harkonnens are bugs. And bugs sometimes show up when Harkonnens or danger is near, ie Duncan death scene.

Did anyone else notice actor Everett McGill (the 1984 Dune's Stilgar) as the Sardukaur leader in the throne room when the Fremen break in? Great cameo!!!

I think they're saving the spacing guild for Dune Messiah as there's literally an important Spacing Guild character that shows up in Messiah

Regarding the atomics, in the book it was mentioned that there is a treaty where the Great Houses cannot use atomics against each other. If a House violates the treaty, all Houses will declare war on the offending House. Paul points out that hitting the mountains beside the Emperor's encampment will not violate the treaty and disrupt the shields. I do agree with explanation of clearing the mountains for the worms.

In the books The artillery was only used on the Atreides when they were attacked by the harkonnens. The Baron explicitly states that afterwards the artillery be taken away from Arrakis.

This was an absolute spectacle. They might as well hand out next year's cinematography Oscar to this film.

My favorite part was Paul telling Chani he didn’t want to go south because he’d lose her but she says he will never lose her so he goes south and then loses her

I don’t usually give praise like this, but that scene of Paul approaching millions of his followers as he steps into his power…that was the coolest, most exhilarating entrance I’ve ever seen in a movie.

Chani is pretty consistent, especially compared to Paul, who betrays every promise. She even tells him she will love him as long as he stays who he is. He doesn't. He tells her he wants to be their equal, then breaks that promise by choosing to become their Messiah and the Duke of Arrakis.

I feel like excluding Alia is just another way how "unadaptable" the story is but also could be because it would've made the movie way longer. All the nods to Messiah and Abomination were nice too.

OJ constantly changing the pronunciation of "Harkonnen" is hilarious.

The Bene Tleilax and their gholas , face dancers , Axlotl tanks is what makes book 4,5,6 so fascinating and esoteric , the dynamics male-female relationships portrayed by the various houses in stark contrast to the extreme " girl power" of the Honored Matres who were the descendants of the God Emporor's all females personal guards. What makes the story of of Leto II grandiose is that eventually he planned his own demise at a specific time and place to make sure humanity follows his golden path and protects the Atreides bloodline with an addition of special power through their genes.

I would watch this twice. There are rarely movies of this caliber that would let the audience watch it more than once

In the book Paul tells Chani he loves her and that he plans to marry the Emperor's daughter to secure control. Paul tells Chani the Emperor's daughter will never share his bed. (It is her resentment that brings her to betray Paul in the future)

Well the guy that feyed fights in the arena was in the first one. He is also the films fight choreographer so he could probably beat him in real life since he trained him lol.

The grandfather reveal is in the first book I'm pretty sure

So in the book, House Atredes forces from the Homeworld plus houses who hate the Emperor ally with Paul.

Angry Joe talking about Dune is about as ridiculous as I imagined

I find it amazing that people have such a hard time comprehending the duality of man. In his mind, Paul's, he is no better than any another Freman. He is equal to them. But in the eyes of the emperor, and the other houses, that means nothing to them. He HAS to proclaim himself as the Duke of Arikis, and a contender to the throne, because that is what they will understand.

The reason the fremen can conquer the galaxy is because Paul controls space travel after hoarding the spice and making the spacing guild submit. It’s not a scale issue. I feel like these dudes never read the books and have just read wiki summaries and watched videos. Also revealing the relations with the harkonnens is in the first book. It’s Alia who reveals it when she kills him, it’s not a reveal in messiah

Paul is not a bad dude. The Golden Path is the only way for Humanity to survive what is to come! i.e. presence empowered hunter killers and AI

The action scenes are economical and not overlong, sparing budget that would have gone to additional special effects. Giving room to scenes involving politics, religion, romance, culture, and contemplation-letting them breathe. Perfect world creation worthy of Frank Herbert’s vision…

It’s called the Shield Wall, and the plan was to use atomics to blow a hole in them for the worms to attack.

two things paul has going for him. he gives all freman his new way of fighting called the wierding way. a combanation of all his masters, jesica benegeserit, dunken sword masters of ginaz, thufer mentat master of assasins and gurney haleck. this puts his fighters on a new lv compared to every other fighting force in the universe. 2nd is he can see the future clear as looking into a mirror...

Main "sin" of the movie is the time period which is below 8 months. In books it was I think 5 years. Paul turn into fremen, start to be fedaikin, unite all siches, changed whole tradiition system of fremens in couple of months? Come on. Also in original book Paul's marriage with Irulan had also a purpose of disrespect for benegeserit because there will be no relationship with her apart from being on paper. It hurts me that the love between Chani and Paul was turned into one big manipulation. Not to mention lack of they firstborn who died during the harkonens attack. Without their relationship there is no Messiah of dune, no children of dune (because how?). Either way thank you for review guys.

The technology about the gravity-defying floating aspect is Denis Villeneuve taking Dune Universe existing technology of the Holtzman Field - which is what powers the Shields (body and ships, "the slow blade penetrates the shield"), and what keeps the floating lights "Glowglobes" (seen in Part 1 in the palace on Caladan that follows Paul as he walks to meet with Reverend Mother Mohaim to be tested), suspended, and also is involved with "folding space" which is what the Heighliners do for fast space travel.

So something I picked up, maybes it me but I'm curious if others felt the same way.....but after Paul drinks the water of life, he reminds me of Eren Yeager once he possessed the ability to see the future, for Paul felt colder and is giving me the same red flags as Eren. Idk if anyone here is both a AOT and Dune fan, bur if so, am I alone in this feeling?

I would love an OJ review of the Sci Fi's channels Dune and Children of Dune haha

Part 3 probably will show more of the Guild since you have the one who's part of the group. Part 3 is going to start showing the weird stuff of the universe

The old asian guy Feyd Rautha fought in the arena was Roger Yuan who also is fight Choreographer for this movie.

59:01 The idea that the fabled "Enemy" teased in the later Dune books are AI or robots is an invention of Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, and was never implied to be anything of the sort by Frank Herbert himself. Also it was not Frank Herbert's intent that the Butlerian Jihad was a humans vs robot "War Against the Machines" ripped straight right out of Terminator.

I'm all for bashing the white savior trope but it annoys me when people try to apply that label when it doesn't fit. If anything, Dune is a purposeful deconstruction of the trope and of the idea of saviors in general. And the funny thing about the examples of Shogun and Last Samurai that Joe mentioned is that the white dude doesn't save shit in either of those stories. Both characters are just outside witnesses to a pivotal moment in history. They don't save the samurai, it's the samurai and their way of life that saves the white dude from himself.

The one thing I always wondered, even from the books, is considering how dangerous it is to initially get on, how the heck do they get off a worm, without getting killed?

In the movie Paul is hidden with the Fremen for a months. But in the book, Paul is with them for years. He even has a son with Chani. I'm interested to see how this changing timeline is going to affect the plot going forward. There have been a lot of changes from the book, but so far I'm still really enjoying the movies. I think the changes are still enjoyable.

Jesus Christ guys I love these and been a fan for a decade, but for the love of God have some structure in the discussion. It's just all over the place. Either discuss character arcs, or discuss the story chronologically.

Well only ppl who havent read the book say that its a white savor story. They did a good job potraying that Jessica persued this path out of nessecity not some white savor stuff. They needed to survive so she used what was already layed out. The only way to ensure they live was to use the freeman religion set up by the sisterhood, and to make a play on the thrown since it was the Emperor that wanted them dead.

also in the books, Gurney joins the smugglers

God Emperor of Dune is definitely something that I’d love to see in live action for sure. Before that, Seeing the future Dune Sequel with Dune Messiah and Children of Dune would be very fun too especially since Ghanima is the one who gives birth to many children and Sionna Atreides is one of Ghanima’s descendants and has a special ability that’s different from Leto II and Paul and then she teams up with a Duncan to take down Leto. Oh and I can’t wait to see Paul get blind in Dune Messiah and to see Jason Mamoa return as Duncan resurrected

This version of Chani, while not similar in the book, but very interesting in a different way imo. In the book, Chani is more submissive after Paul proof himself as and Fremen and win her over. This movie version of Chani love Paul because he's sincere and try to become one of them; the Fremen don't like outsider. Also, when Paul denied being the Lisan al Gaib, that shown her he's staying true to his word and not trying to use the Fremen for his cause. But when Paul decided to drink the water of life to become what he's trying to denied, he betrayed her trust. And when he rally the Fremen, he has reverted back to being Paul Astreides, the Duke, not Paul Muad'dib Usul, the one that she loves. She still loves him, but hated what he has become, and her duty as a Feydakin bound her to fight for her people's, now Paul's cause. This version of Chani has more depth, more emotions than the book version. I also think that as a couple, seeing her lover moving faraway from where they are and she can't go to where he's at, emotionally and figuratively, causing her to feel frustrated and anger in the movie. This is a very human response and I find it more fleshed out than the book version.

Jessica being Harkonen is in the first book, btw

Using the voice on the Emperor would have been way less because it wouldn't have been his decision to bend the knee.

Chani blasting the Harkonnen trooper with the shoulder launcher s at point blank range is so much like Helldivers 2 😂

“No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a Hero” ~ Frank Herbert Herbert definitely had a lot to say about the dangers of a charismatic White Savior leader despite writing a story that glorifies them.. Is it crazy to suggest that the people who think DUNE is the story of the white savior and glorifying western colonialism and imperialism just simply don't understand the story of DUNE? And before any of you accuse me for being a racist white wing MAGA supporter who watches Nerdrotic and hates diversity, i'm not. i'm actually very much a progressive, massive Bernie and AOC fan. But the difference between you, oh dear critical reader and myself, is i've actually read the books and actually payed attention throughout the movies..

Needed more Battle Pug

Not a huge deal but you got a good bit of book stuff wrong here. The Jessica Harkonnen reveal, for example, is actually revealed a little EARLIER in the first book than it was revealed here. The Gurney Halleck plotline was also very similar to the novel. Also, the billions who die due to Paul’s actions are both people literally killed by his followers and mostly the people who die of starvation because of Paul’s monopoly on spice (which you need to fly a spaceship). Again, no big deal but it helps to be accurate when using the source material as a reference point in a review.

The Spacing Guild totally gone AWOL

12x book reader here. they have suspensores in book but using it in open desert is death sentence like shield because it is based off minipulations of frequency or vibrations, which calls worms...

You see how you pronouce the "u" in "bun"? Well that's how you pronounce the "eu" in Villeneuve (kinda like Vilnuv'). You can do this Joe!

Paul - "I'm not the Messiah!" Stilgar - " Only the true messiah would deny his divinity!" Paul - " Well what choice does that give me? Alright, I AM THE MESSIAH!" 🤦‍♂️🤣

I kept thinking during the worm seen about how the hell do they get off the thing after?

31:02 the apprehension comes from the moment he drinks the poison. Cuz she knew that would change him. That's when he awakens and now goes full emperor mode. Cuz he did a Dr strange move, and says there is a very narrow path to victory and he must take it.

Stilgar is the Morpheus from Matrix in this film

I only wish Denis added one more thing (from Dune 1984): after killing Feyd, Paul yells at his body and breaks it to pieces.

Feyd and the baron did kiss in this movie though

Actually for the artillery weapons I have two things to say. Firstly it is mentioned in the book that the artillery is an ancient technology not used because of the shields. Second the didn't specificly targeted the siegh they targeted every rock formation-mountain they could and then they discovered the siegh

Funny that Elvis was in the film

Joe, Smugglers are actual thing in the Arrakis. Harkonen still have 99,5% of the Spice production while the Smugglers have the last 0,50%. It's not a direct book thing like the Chapterhouses but it's more expanded lore. The Smugglers usually just bribe or pay the Fremens to be in peace by giving out Rocket Launchers or other supplies. There is also supposed to be few Smuggler outposts on Arrakis. The Harkonnen do kill the Smugglers but they usually are in the remote areas of the planet and they also have their Outposts scattered around.

I do miss the weirding modules (the sounds amplified blasters) from the 1984 version. Although I love this new version of Dune, I still think the 80s one nailed it! Though I do think that it was rushed, and they tried cramming too much info into 1.5 hours. No wonder people were left confused. But still. This new version of Dune is awesome!

they did the Mentats and Guild Dirty! Paul was even trained as a Mentat, and they don't go into it at all...and they just dropped thufir. Also the Emperor was against Leto because of his popularity, and that was never touched upon....

Two-thirds of Dune Part Two was masterful but seriously mixed about the ending.

For the foot stomp and Paul making the emperor kiss the boot, I think it’s purposeful that he didn’t use the voice. I think Paul wanted the emperor to submit on his own accord without the use of the voice.

I liked the movie, but it was not a 10/10 for me, like a 8/10. It started out great and as the movie progressed it started feeling rushed more and more. The lack of the 2 year time skip for paul to learn his bene gesserit abilities and his sister who is crucial to the story to be born is just completely overlooked. The last fight scene which is pivotal for this movies ending felt way under done. It felt like exactly like it was portrayed, they came in, gathered some chairs and then he killed fayed, the end. The slow betrayal of chani during the latter half of the movie made NO SENSE whatsoever. I started thinking to myself, ok shes apprehensive about what hes becoming, then it turned into, so shes just gonna bounce just like that huh. I feel like if there is a third movie, they are going to go full on woke with it and focus it around strong woman chani. It's like they just cannot help themselves, they just cannot allow a woman to be portrayed as being lesser to the male lead.

Book reader here. No, in the first book they never use suspensor tech in battles. But I thought it was very smart to use it in the movie. It's one of the better decisions. In fact, a detail I didn't notice the first time I watched Dune 1 is that Idaho uses a suspensor belt, and at one point right before he jumps unto an enemy, he switches it on, on his back. it's a shot that's not even a second so super easily missed. Suspenser tech is very common in the Dune world. I mean literally everyone and their mom, including the Fremen seems to use suspenser lamps. Which are the floating lamps you see. But the only person that uses suspenser tech on their person is Baron Harkonnen, to support his weight.