Between “Clippers season tickets” and “....Celtics” that 7 min over/under applies for anything Bill Simmons does. Movie rewatch ales, actor interviews... you name it.
Everyone hating on the '04 draft, I low key love it. Lots of solid players with long careers who brought toughness, fundamentals & great intangibles. We all know who Dwight is. Look at Al Jefferson, a double-double BEAST from the old school. The renaissance man Iguodala. J.R., Ben Gordon & Kevin Martin shot with the best of them in their prime. Deng & Ariza were great defensive-minded wings you wanted on your playoff squad. Tony Allen may have the best case of anyone for the "Kobe-Stopper" title. Livingston is one of the most inspiring stories in league history, period. He was like Andre Miller and Josh Smith in one body. And Josh Smith...what? 2 steals and 2 blocks a game with vision off the bounce. He just needed the right coach to mold him. This '04 class has great hoops DNA.
You forgot about 6th man of the year award winner Ben Gordon. His rookie year. He was solid player. Hes the real reason the post jordan bulls finally made it back to the playoffs. He also took over as the franchise leader in 3pt fg from scottie pippen. I remember the day of this draft i was at a baseball game and did not want ben gordon. He grew on me and has a special place in the history of the bulls.
@@aro327 I'm a Bulls fan, trust me! I'll never forget that '09 series vs. the Celtics. He was a killer. I mentioned him in there with J.R. & Kevin Martin in the part about shooters. Ben Gordon is one of my all time favorites.
It’s one of those drafts full of key championship players. Not the NBA stars that lead a team to a championship, but the starters and role players that are crucial to a championship team.
@@Kirbystare1992 Disagree. 2015 is very much still up in the air. We still dont know who will be better between Booker or Towns and Kristaps lowkey had an INCREDIBLE second half to the year he even might turn out the best. The role players redraft rankings are still up in the air 2014 has the same problems with not knowing how the role players careers will fully turn out and the top of the draft isn't clear either between Jokic, Embiid. Guys like Wiggins, Lavine, Gordon had rough starts to their careers but have looked more promising the last few years, Maybe they could start at 2013 but i still think it's premature for that draft even. The only clear cut pick is Giannis at 1 in that draft while all the other guys are still writing their stories and proving themselves
As a Hawks fan, Josh Smith's career is heartbreaking. He could do everything on the court except shoot, but shooting was all he wanted to do some games.Great shot blocker and perimeter defender. Good ball handler and passer for his size. Incredible athlete. Just wasn't willing to play winning basketball.
Josh Smith’s big problem was the fact that he started going too hard on the threes and stopped trying on defense. He was really special until around 2011 and then I stopped being able to put up with his BS.
Yeah, also that team gave him WAYYYYY too many isos. Isolations are some of the worst shot opportunities in general, but they are particularly bad when you give so many to a guy like Smith who can't shoot worth a lick. It would be interesting to see how he'd fit in a modern offense.
I remember buying 2k11 at a certain point where Smith's 3pt percentage was actually decent (on low attempts), which dipped hard later on. For a moment in time, however, it made him thr most unstoppable player in that game on both ends
Nah, he I think he meant Greg Oden who was in the lottery that year. He was probably reminiscing about the '97 draft where it was similar circumstances. They ended up trading for both KG and Ray Allen that offseason after not getting a top 3 pick.
They didn’t touch up on Okafor nearly enough. Could’ve been the man in Charlotte for years to come. When he played there he was kinda underrated. Him Gerald Wallace Ben Gordon and Jason Richardson isn’t a bad squad.
Hey he was great in winning a title at UConn. That was a sick team with him and Ben Gordon. Dwight just obviously had freakish athleticism and size that Emeka couldn’t match when he got to the NBA
this man said 2009 playoffs for deng's legacy?..deng never played in that series lol ...2007 first round upsetting miami 4-0 as the defending champs is his legacy..as a heat fan he killed us we had no one to guard him or gordon
bill"james posey on the celtics" simmons..me: he was great for denver and the grizzlies and heat and solid for the hornets...I don't think anyone remembers him on boston for that one season...yeah its like his year on the pacers...
Odd Simmons assessments here. He concludes Josh Smith was a guy "you couldn't win with" and yet teams did win playoff series that they otherwise had no business winning. He was an odd Antoine Walker type player who looks awful by advanced metrics, and yet somehow he'd have postseason just crazy-enough-to-work moments like that Houston series win while Harden was on the bench. And yet he considers Kevin Martin low key good even though he never contributed toward winning efforts.
Agreed. I think Simmons' more modern takes are too shaped largely by the idea of 'this guy would be good in the modern NBA because he could shoot 3s.' Kevin Martin was the Zach Levine of his era; largely an empty calorie guy. Josh smith was a little better than that, and isn't going to be less kindly remembered because of sabermetrics.
@@Weaponator18 yes! Lavine without the handle now that you mention it. He keeps going with how well all these guys would do today as if a 3 point shot automatically equals suitable. If you weren't good 15 years ago, you're not magically effective now because of some change in rules or philosophy. But also, teams want a. 3 and D guy, not a 3 and nothing. One thing remarkable about this class is Josh Smith is only 34 yo and Martin is 37, but it seems like they've been out of the league forever already, and not because of old age or injury. During the 90s expansion age guys like these seemed to linger on rosters forever, but anymore you can get left behind fast if you don't have the skills that coaches want.
@@CheefChaos It's not as though Dwight's career has been more successful for having left Orlando. If he stayed, he might've been kept his reputation as one of the most popular players in the NBA.
@@mrmacross that was his problem. He worried about being popular. He should've said fuck the fans and force his way to Brooklyn instead of opting in for that last meaningless year in Orlando
For how much Bill talks about guys playing better in the current three point era than they did during their time, he really should have liked Gordon who was a 41% 3pt shooter!
Thank you for bringing these back! I'm so curious what happens with guys like Brandon Roy who get injured in a weaker class. Is the injury inevitable or do you draft as if it didn't happen? We saw the Jay Williams decision, but we never got to see what he was. Similar w/ DRose. If he falls to #2 and Westbrook becomes #1, does Rose still get injured if drafted by the Heat. And with this logic wouldn't that likely make him better than Westbrook if he never gets injured? I LOVE DRAFTS. Thanks again.
Joe saying Iguodala's FMVP was good for the league automatically disqualify him from voting on any NBA award, ever. The media patting itself on the back despite historians of the sport (which Bill used to be) ranking that as the second worst FMVP selection (behind Unseld) shows that they shouldn't get to decide the legacy of players anymore.
I’m sorry but iggy is not a hall of famer he was at his best a 18 or 19 ppg scorer as well as a decent playmaker. If he’s a hall of famer then Derrick Rose should 100% be a hall of famer. He was an all star then an MVP and he’s been averaging like 18 a game the last 4 or 5 seasons. I swear championships are overrated not for the stars but for roll players I swear championships are massively overrated
Im not a larry o' brian or bust guy either but how isnt iggy a hof?. 17 6 6 in his prime great defender a winner. Compare his stats and playoff #'s to other hof 3's and he's right there man.
iggy never led a team to the playoffs avg. over 15 ppg...hes not a hall of famer..he just isn't...hes a poor mans pippen...even at his best like 70% of prime pippen......he makes pippen look great as a 1st option honestly
I didn’t think that Andre Iguodala or Loul Deng would have 50 point games, but I thought a prime Dwight definitely did it. That Kevin Martin stat really surprised me.
Dwight's Orlando Magic was extremely exciting. He postirized so many guys while having fun. Not to mention Turk and Nelson were throwing crazy lobs to Dwight. If Iggy's an Hall of Famer, then Dwight is no doubt Hall of Famer as Well!!!
The fact that they could place Kevin Martin so high and have jr at 13 is mind blowing to me... And if I have to hear about that cavs series against gsw one more time 😡
As a Magic fan I strongly disagree with bill on Dwight not being a "fun" franchise player. Sure things didn't end very well, but watching Dwight dominate for 8 years was plenty of fun.
If Iggy is a hall of Famer so is every role player on a title team. The NBA hall of fame is by far the worst hall of fame. Good player but if he's your best guy you will never win a title. If he's your 2nd best guy you don't win a title. I just don't get it. Put in Kukoc and Horace Grant then. Whatever.
Andre Iguodala is a great guy but not HOF worthy... Horry, Tayshaun Prince, Bruce Bowen, MWP, Bryon Scott, Battier, Horace Grant, Laimbeer, Livingston, Ariza and all those great role players should be in the HOF based on the logic. That Finals MVP actually belongs to Steph and we all know this, HOF loosely used these days
iggy saved the 2015 title but hes not a hofer...he earned that finals mvp for his offense which people forget putting up like 19 8 and 6 for 3 games or something while making it tougher on lebron....they were co finals mvps since without iggy stepping up they lose games 5 and 6 for sure...this is why watching the games in the moment is key cause in the moment it felt like the cavs would win and iggy saved the season and his impact swung the series..looking back curry was better but not by much impact wise and in a 50/50 call i am fine with them picking iggy....again watch the games iggy deserved it...the way lebron in 2016 deserved it...people trying to say kyrie deserved finals mvp in 2016 because of the shot and his performance in games 3 5-7 forget its a series and kyrie did not outperform lebron for the series or in any of the games...iggy did outplay curry in one game...big difference
Asmosis Jones glad you first agree he is not a hofer, hehehe 😁... on the finals mvp, your arguments for Iggy are valid and a worthy candidate but it was Steph to me still. Even if Iggy deserved it, people using just that as more or less the main point with his 1 all star selection to toss him into the HOF is what I find absurd
Ben Gordon at 14 with guys like Varejao, JR, and Tony Allen over him (i had him at 7 overall but just to name a few) makes me wonder how much time they put into these lists lol
emeka over ben is a joke..ben is right there with jameer nelson either ahead of him or behind him at 10 an the other at 11 with k mart and harris at that 8-9 spot in some order all behind j.r. smith who is at 6-7 imo with ariza its a debate.......j.r. was a starter on finals teams so i gotta give it to him he was key in 2009 on a west finals team as a 6th man starter hybrid basically was the sg and was a great player on the knicks as well ..he just had the longevity sorry....ariza?...he had a few years but meh...k mart?...what did he ever do?..stop it...harris was overrated always....i just think you can debate j.r. and ariza all day...harris and k mart were stats on bad team guys imo...they were role players on good teams...they were never top 3 bananas on good team caliber....
Two picks in and, for all of the dirty work that Iguodala does and was good at, what did the Bobcats have on their roster to cover the big ticket items that folks weren't looking at Iggy to fill in? Scoring, etc. This is why most re-drafts don't make any sense; folks willfully ignore current situations at the time in favor of projecting back someone's career
Great podcast didn’t realize how impact some of these guys were. I didn’t start watching basketball until most of these guys were buried in bench roles or out of the league. Should keep the should going to reach present day.Keep up the great work I love all ringer content hope one day I can intern with you guys
Problem with Dwight is that he was a Center emerging as a dominant guy right as the big guys were starting to phase out and he was constantly told to be a back to the basket guy when he just wasn’t that guy, and then had a bunch of back problems to go alongside his massive ego at the time and it all came crashing down. Prime Dwight Howard would be a problem in the league today because of how good he was in the pick and roll and he wouldn’t be asked to be a traditional big. He’d be a WAY better version of Clint Capela
Bill mentions how there's not many top 1 picks that ended up being the best in draft and it's true. Anthony Davis I remember reading predraft that he was the most sure fire #1 in 20 years. Back in 2011. When there wasn't too much information and hyperbole. When you wrote "best blank in 20 years" you actually meant it
Just starting the video, simmons really said Dwight wasn't exciting as a franchise player. From 08-2011 those Orlando teams were definitely fun to watch, Dwight had some of the top dunks of his career during that time period and was the best defensive big man in the game at the time. Orlando Dwight was definitely an exciting franchise player (he could have refined his offense a bit more)
Should do a video for which team has the worst dynastic era of drafting. I know Toronto's not the worst, but was just thinking about this horrendous stretch: 2004 #8 Rafael araujo 2005 #7 Charlie Villanueva 2005 #16 Joey Graham 2006 #1 Bargnani
it shouldn’t even be debatable, i understand his impact goes beyond surface level stats but he just doesn’t have enough individual accolades to substantiate him being in the HOF
Yeah, when he was in his athletic prime and was his team's best player, his teams were barely making the playoffs or missing altogether. I don't feel like it's worthwhile to give the team's 5th best player that much credit. In 2017 and 2018, he was playing with two sure-fire Hall of Famers, an All-Star who has a great shot at the Hall, and the best or second-best defensive player in the league. Yes, he was the fifth member of the Hampton's Five, but the other four would make any fifth guy look half decent. Much props to his 2015 season, though.
Im a bulls fan and I remember when watching Josh Smith, all im thinking was "please start shooting 3s, please start shooting 3s". He was so good with everything else but he kept going back to that 3
It's kinda bs to not take Shaun Livingston. They've made the "in the context of alterative universes, this is probably the worst universe for for this guy" argument for at least two guys they did draft in past redrafts. They legit spent more time at the end of the pod talking about him than half the actual picks!
i love how bill said varejao and gooden beat the wallace bros in 2007...ben was on the bulls and big z was the starter varejao came off the bench as a 5-6 points and 5 rebound type bum....big z is putting up 12-13 ppg....and they had lebron...
I like how these analyses switch. I mean, you could make an argument that you could coach up Josh Smith to be more efficient. And, to you Bill’s own words, in a different universe, he could have been a dynamic player… just a thought
I’m sorry idk how you take Nelson over Jr Smith according to your own criteria should been a top 10 pick. He was a key rotation player on a championship team, won 6th man of the year and probably one of the best bad shot makers during his time lol. Definitely should of been better with the talent he had but still pretty good...
If J Smoove ever either learned to shoot 3s or lay off them completely and continued to play defense and run the floor like he did when he was younger, he could have been a monster. Especially in todays league, granted he wouldnt have lasted that long in all likelihood. I remember being so upset when he went straight to the league instead of signing with IU. Did Simmons say "open up some calorie space" in the Andre Iguodala part? I swear he did. Sort of a combined "cap space" and "salary space". I like it 😂😂
The disrespect to Devin Harris . He averaged 15ppg/6ast from 07-11. Made an all star in 2009 . Also had a 21 pt 7ast season along with a 15/7.5 season. Shot around 43-46% and could knockdown 3s.
We ABSOLUTELY knew about Okafor’s back issues before the draft. Guess who else was having back issues during the ‘04 season? A disgruntled Tracy McGrady. It’s no wonder Orlando passed on Emeka.
@ian kost Right!! The HOF is reserved for players being "a top player of his generation". Not role players taking wide open shots, because "a top player of his generation" is being doubled teamed. Horry has a career earning of 50 million dollars. God forbid he makes an open shot.
I’m always a tough critic when talking about HOF. I cannot fathom how Andre Iguodala could be in the same class as MJ, Lebron, Shaq, etc. If your argument is, ‘he was an all star one time when he was the main guy but really hit his stride when he was the third/fourth option…’ He has great achievements but the NBA HOF needs to really reevaluate who gets in.
@@fortynights1513 1000%! The NBA HOF would shrink by half if not more. I always imagine strolling through Springfield and thinking, ‘damn, Steph Curry was great! Wait, how the hell did Antwan Jamison get in here???’
@@certifiedchaos4643 Great plan brotha...and what do you think it would take for them to move up from 27 to higher than 15? What do you recommend to make this dream plausible? Maybe #27 and their '05 first round pick? That pick ended up being Andrew Bynum, so that wouldn't work out too well. And while their at it, why stop at Josh Smith...why not just "trade up" for Iguodala, Deng, and Jefferson too?
Thank god he finally took Ben Gordon. What a joke he lasted that long here. You’re telling me if you redraft Gordon with the potential for no ankle injury/his prime lasting more than 5 seasons, that he’s worse than half these guys?? Jameer, Harris, Varejo?! At very worst he’s the 9th pick of this draft, but could argue in his prime he’s a top 5 player here.
hes top 10 range for me....hes ahead of emeka varejao maybe nelson and tony for sure...he can go 10 be a steal at 11 be overvalued at 8 or go 9 which may be early or perfect ...he did not have a long prime...2005-2009 thats it
8:54 Luol did not play 82 games 5 out of the first 6 seasons. It went 61, 78, 82, 63, 49, 70. That's 88 games missed. It's not hard to look things up and be right rather than try and sound smart and come off looking very foolish.
